Tyke Tirade
One more piece of old business before I go off the clock. Reader Paul Wilbert sends in this story about the "War On Brats" that caused a big stink in The New York Times a few weeks back. Apparently there's culture war going on in coffee shops between owners and parents who want to bring along their kids, with an increasing number of establishments putting up signs that order kids to behave and use "inside voices."
The policy issue seems pretty straightforward: The owner can make whatever rules he or she wants to make, and customers can like it or lump it. The personality issue is less clear: The owner of "A Taste of Heaven," the article's anecdotal set piece, sounds like a real new-age jackass who condemns mothers as "former cheerleaders and beauty queens" but then launches into a lecture about how we all have to "send out positive energy" so that "positive energy" will come back to us. (And what's up with "inside voices," anyway? There's a phrase that makes my flesh creep.) The cafe employees sound like the usual bunch of shrill, temperamental losers you find taking a break from their careers composing electronica to work in coffee shops. And the mothers sound like, well, a bunch of former cheerleaders and beauty queens raising up a new generation of overparented monsters—could anything be more boring for a kid than to have to sit in a friggin' coffee shoppe with your parents?
Jodi Wilgoren sees this as another fight between parents and the childless. I see it as a product of the weird new fad for tomblike silence in coffee shops, where the only sound you're supposed to make is the clicking on the keyboard of your laptop. Every day I see people in coffee shops giving dirty looks to cell phone users or loud tourists. Since when have coffee shops become places where you're not supposed to make noise? And if they want quiet, why not can the horrible Latin jazz they always seem to play in those joints?
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how sexy is it that TimCavanaugh has merged his last and first names now?!
Did we read the same article? I read this a couple of days ago and thought the moms were arrogant bitches, basically saying "How dare these other people not want to listen to my screaming toddlers when they're drinking their coffee?"
My attitude is: if you do nothing about your kid screaming in an adult-oriented place like a coffeehouse, then don't complain when I take my boyfriend to Chuck E. Cheese's and let him French-kiss me and feel me up right in front of your little rugrats, okay? And yes, I WILL make even more sound effects than I'm normally prone to doing. Oh! OH! OH!
"...temperamental losers you find taking a break from their careers composing electronica..."
Hey, I don't work in a coffee shop, nor am I shrill, but I do take a break a lot, right here on H&R!
Oh, and my composing of electronica isn't really a career...yet! I promise! 🙂
I don't drink coffee, so never go to a coffee shop, but I thought the whole point of a coffee shop was to get amped on coffee and talk about Che or some other lefty bullshit that coffee drinks talk about. *shrugs*
Now I want a cigarette.
http://www.tweep.com/comic/?date=07-25-05 seems apropos.
And not to start up a child-discipline debate (as I don't plan to spank my kids if I have any), but damn - parents let their kids be squalling brats, nowadays, tolerating a lot of top-of-lungs screeching, screaming, etc. that would have gotten my rear end busted when I was a kid. It gets to the point that it's a notable and pleasant surprise to see anyone under the age of twelve act remotely civilized...
And because you're waiting for it:
And get offa my lawn!
"I love people who don't have children who tell you how to parent," said Alison Miller, 35, a psychologist, corporate coach and mother of two. "I'd love for him to be responsible for three children for the next year and see if he can control the volume of their voices every minute of the day."
I'm a father of two -- so let me tell you how to "parent". Our first one was calm and quiet as a toddler, so we could take him pretty much anywhere. The second (as is so often the case) wasn't. Solution? Didn't go out for two years. Try it -- you'll survive, and strike a dual blow for civility and personal responsibility.
how about a statewide ban on children from inside coffee shops and within 25 feet of any doors and windows
Jennifer, as usual, said it perfectly.
Solution? Didn't go out for two years. Try it -- you'll survive, and strike a dual blow for civility and personal responsibility.
Damn. You're hard-core. Unless your kid ended up a basket-case, I'm in awe. 🙂
Of course, the converse of that is making an establishment so "family friendly" that they chase away their customers.
Case in point: Recently the current owner of the game store I frequent had instituted a new policy declaring the store to be a "family store." In other words, no swearing, no "inappropriate discussions," or anything else that might be considered offensive by the soccer parents and their sheltered children he's trying to court as customers. The store mainly caters to twenty-thirty somethings (or older) so discussions used to be rather adult. However, after hearing a conversation at a rival game store where a group of kids agreed they don't like his establishment because there was "too much swearing," the owner started the new policy. (Huh? When I was a kid I tried to get in as many cuss words I could before a parent tried to shut me up. Where are these goodie-two-shoes brats coming from?)
Anyway, one night I brought my laptop into the basement gameroom, I popped in the sci-fi classic "Aliens," and plugged in my head phones. The owner was on me about half way through the title sequence. "That movie is rated 'R'!" he shouted at me. "Turn it off or you're banned from the store!" There were no kids around. I was wearing headphones. There was no nudity or sex scenes at all in the film. Yet, because the film was rated "R" for violence (Isn't simulated violence a norm for RPGs and miniature wargames?), he chews me up. I back up my laptop and leave in a huff.
OK, I know, property rights and all that, but so far he's driven away a lot of his regular customers who find his new policy provincial and ineffective. Making the place rated PG didn't draw in any new prepubescent customers. The store is at a loss this year (due largely to poor business decisions on the part of the owner.) and the store's general manager, the guy who actually does the day-to-day operations, is fed up with the owner's stupidity and is leaving at the end of the year. Since the owner is a full time school teacher and can't actually be at the store, he's making his wife, who hates gamers and doesn't know a thing about the market, run the things for him once the manager leaves. Most of my friends aren't giving the place more than six weeks once that happens.
Looks like I'm going to have to look for a new place to game.
My local coffeehouse also sells risque novelties and has no high chairs, practices which seem to keep the former cheerleaders and beauty queens from frequenting, at least with kids in tow.
While I could sympathize with a shopkeeper for not wanting screaming brats running or crawling on the ground, I can't figure out why they might classify breastfeeding as a similarly offensive act, one of the most solemn activities I've ever observed in public places.
I'd love for him to be responsible for three children for the next year and see if he can control the volume of their voices every minute of the day
I'd really like the mothers who sit and talk with a friend while their children are careening about, yelling, and fighting to try that, just for kicks.
On the whole "kids used to behave so much better" topic, I received some fresh doubt recently. We Tivo'd Charlie Brown's The Great Pumpkin at Halloween - wholesome old-fashioned family entertainment. But, all those kids do is scream at each other, call each other blockheads & otherwise act like little brats. Did we used to think this was cute? I almost felt bad letting the kids watch it.
Kebko
Damn. You're hard-core. Unless your kid ended up a basket-case, I'm in awe. 🙂
Nah -- he's a sweet, well-adjusted eight-year-old who recently behaved himself better during an ungodly long bar mitzvah (pun intended) than one of his older brother's teenage friends ...
Looks like I'm going to have to look for a new place to game.
Sounds like he's succumbed to the siren song of Yu-Gi-Oh or whatever the big CCG is this year. That's hurt a lot of game and comic stores in my area when they've failed to realize they can't actually make a metric assload of money off of ten-year-olds supporting the card habit.
Nah -- he's a sweet, well-adjusted eight-year-old who recently behaved himself better during an ungodly long bar mitzvah (pun intended) than one of his older brother's teenage friends
Good for y'all and him, then.
Sounds like he's succumbed to the siren song of Yu-Gi-Oh or whatever the big CCG is this year.
Not quite sure about that. There are three local game stores in operation in the Milwaukee area. Two of them hold weekly Yu-Gi-Oh tourneys and they are PACKED with pre-teens. I don't know how much they bring in. My store, while it sells CCGs, primarly caters to the Games Workshop, Flames Of War, and other minature wargames as well as old fashioned RPGs. They don't hold sanctioned CCG tournies, but on any given night you can find one or two customers playing Magic.
I'll have what Jennifer's having.
Hrm. Does that store really have kids and young teenagers coming in to play miniatures? (I'd heard people say that the WizKid games were bringing in younger players, but never heard how that pans out.) I've never really gone into a gaming store where a high school freshman wasn't on the very young end of the customer age range.
>I'd really like the mothers who sit and talk with a friend while their children are careening about, yelling, and fighting to try that, just for kicks.
Eric, I'd like that too.
Regarding the monsters and their parents' sense of entitlement: I was a restaurant worker for many years. I once waited on a party in which the mother handed her toddler the entire container of sugar and sweetener packets to entertain herself with by tearing them open and smearing their contents all over the table. I guess if a restaurant doesn't provide crayons and paper for your kid to play with you're entitled to all the Sweet 'n' Low she can waste, huh?
And it's not just about them being annoying, either. Their behavior in eating establishments can be hazardous. Once, I had to remove a knife from the hand of a child who was running around the dining room while her parents chatted at their table, oblivious to what she was doing. I've had to shoo away kids standing, for no particular reason, outside swinging kitchen doors, where they could get a plate of food hot from the oven dumped on their heads at just about any time. That kind of behavior can injure the child and the worker, besides the fact that dealing with it raises the stress level for everyone concerned but the parents, apparently.
I saw the Seinfeld gang hawking their lastest DVD release on Regis and Kelly today--it was on at the gym, I swear--and I've come to the conclusion that Jennifer is our Elaine. And that's why we love her. Happy Thanksgiving, all.
On the whole "kids used to behave so much better" topic, I received some fresh doubt recently.
I would never claim kids were better behaved in past generations -- just better supervised in public. And, come to think of it, must less supervised at private play and activities. Not a bad combo for growing up secure and independent.
"I'm a father of two -- so let me tell you how to "parent". Our first one was calm and quiet as a toddler, so we could take him pretty much anywhere. The second (as is so often the case) wasn't. Solution? Didn't go out for two years. Try it -- you'll survive, and strike a dual blow for civility and personal responsibility."
Tim, just a note to let you know your significant sacrifice hasn't gone unnoticed.
Thank you.
I've had to shoo away kids standing, for no particular reason, outside swinging kitchen doors
They were probably curious. As a young kid, I remember finding institutional and restaurant kitchens fascinating. The first interest occasionally got indulged in a very limited extent (I couldn't go near the food, but I could oooh and ah at the mixer without being allowed to touch it) because my mother at one point worked in a school cafeteria. The second...well, didn't because my mom would supervise my ass... 🙂
I have some sympathy for the ToH owner, jerk though he may be. When I was a bookseller, I once was confronted by an outraged parental unit. Seems that when I shooed Her Perfect Darling off a rolling ladder that staff and staff alone were authorized to use to reach the overstock space above the shelves, I traumatized the little dearie-o. Apparently, telling HPD to get down from there! That ladder isn't a toy! and Where is your Mom or Dad? amounted to "being authoritarian." Yeah, Mom, I'm the Bookstore Nazi, and how many millions would you have sued for if HPD had fallen off the ladder and broken her pretty little neck?
Then there was my co-worker at another of the chain's outlets. His store was in the parking lot of a major area mall. Mom left her developmentally disabled daughter alone there, without clueing anybody on staff into what she was up to. Then she went shopping in the mall proper. The daughter had a good time looking at the children's books, but when nature called she didn't have the wits to ask to use the bathroom, and defecated in a corner of the store. When Mother returned, she was confronted by an angry manager who had just finished cleaning feces off his fixtures, presenting a bill for the stock that had been fouled.
A certain amount of rambunctiousness is tolerable, depending on the type of establishment, but some customers have no idea when they and their progeny have gone too far.
Kevin
Kevrob, damn. If I'd been there I'd have contemplated contacting Protective Services. Leaving a child that incapable of caring for herself alone in a store is just astounding.
You know what this thread's missing?
A link to The Misanthropic Bitch
Eric the .5b crashes a lot less than Eric the .4b or Eric the 1.0a
Wrong thread.
But an excellent and witty effort. And you're quite preferable to fat_alive_elvis when suitably contained.
Aw, man, good joke, wrong thread.
Hey, does this open the door to our writing something nasty about every previous poster?
My fave was when I had a little darling throw his used bandage into my booth at a restaurant. The mother was on the cell phone and never noticed that the kid was standing on the table (this is the only way he could have reached over the divider).
If you're going to talk on your cell phone while out with your kid, then get takeout and don't bother the rest of us, m'kay?
Holy crap.
Just trying to spread the love to all the threads...
"Hey, does this open the door to our writing something nasty about every previous poster?"
Glad to see I wasn't the only one to have a similar thought.
"I love people who don't have children who tell you how to parent," said Alison Miller, 35, a psychologist, corporate coach and mother of two. "I'd love for him to be responsible for three children for the next year and see if he can control the volume of their voices every minute of the day."
False dichotomy, bimbo. I'm not asking you to control your child every second of the day; I'm asking you to not allow your child to run around and scream inside a coffeeshop.
And your love for childless people telling you how to parent is rivalled only by my love for people who think the spawn of their prolific genitalia should be the center of my universe in addition to their own.
You're supposed to take the coffee outside to the pickup and listen to NPR and smoke cigarettes while you gulp it down.
mediageek is a self-confessed copycat. 🙂
"Inside voices" is a cringe-worthy phrase, but at least it's clear to parents after lo these many years of its use.
I've got no problem with parents who bring their kids to the big chains that are prepared to deal with the little beasts, but smaller venues, they better be prepared to make it a teaching moment for their child rather than an excuse to let them run amok.
I know it's not an easy job being a parent -- in fact, I know it so well that I decided not to do it. Nevertheless, a regular refrain from my wife and I when we're out in public is, "Our parents would never have let us behave like that in public." Nobody (generally) is asking anyone to make the little darlings into lobotomized zombies; just try to maintain some semblance of order, politeness and good sense!
We were shopping in Target recently, and were watching a little girl and her father and mother. While moms and pops pushed the cart, the girl, who was about 7, was RUNNING full speed up and down the aisles bouncing one of those kickball-type balls and screaming at the top of her lungs. That would have lasted about four seconds with my parents -- my father or mother would have takeen my elbow, and quietly but forcefully told me that the store was not my backyard, and I would wait to play like that until I got home, or I was not getting it at all. Period. They weren't authoritarian assholes about it, but there were simple behavior parameters that were expected in public.
Today, too many parents seem to set no parameters whatsoever.
Anyone notice how Tim always seems to sound just like a politico about to work up some steam on a "drug" issue?
I've been to taste of heaven. I read the article.
I am very, very amused by Tim's summation. Rep Waxman couldn't have done it better. Nor cast a wider net on non-existent fish.
(Latin Jazz? What coffee/desert places do you hang in?)
Henry Waxman looks like one of the Morlocks from the original George Pal version of "The Time Machine."
IANAP, but it seems to me that the best, or at least least ineffective, way to squelch unruly behavior in a child is to ignore it. Often children will act up for the sole purpose of getting attention, even negative attention. Of course, in the short term, it's unpleasant for those around you, but..
And I'd love to see Jennifer's reaction if the parent hauls off and whacks the kid for acting up. That was, after all, the preferred method of controlling children in prior days, and probably the only way to stop the behavior immediately.
I have to chime in.
Like the fella up above, I had one mellow and wonderfully calm child. My second is an unholy terror in public. We don't take him out, period. When it started, he would scream. And you know what I did? I took him OUTSIDE until he was quiet.
Don't these parents get embarrassed? I was mortified that my child had started to scream. When it got to the point I was going out every time, I just gave up. I'll try again later. I stick to the Rainforest cafe and loud places where it doesn't matter.
In college I managed a retail store, and her kids were screwing around, knocking things over. When I asked her to calm down, she said, "I can't tell them not to play".
SUV/Minivan driving soccer moms are the scourge of the earth. And they make all parents look like tools.
But you know what? I think people who throw away five bucks a cup on Charbucks every are some special kind of tool, too.
If you so much as slap the hand of your child in public, someone will say something to you. If you get out of there without security holding you until CPS shows up, you're lucky.
IANAP, but it seems to me that the best, or at least least ineffective, way to squelch unruly behavior in a child is to ignore it
I don't know about you, Crimethink, but most people go to coffeehouses to drink coffee, have conversations and enjoy a certain "atmosphere," not so they can ignore screaming toddlers. Tell the kid to be quiet or take him outside.
To clarify, I'm not advocating a return to the days of "spare the rod, spoil the child." While such a philosophy did produce well-behaved children, it also produced some massively screwed-up personality problems.
IANAP, but it seems to me that the best, or at least least ineffective, way to squelch unruly behavior in a child is to ignore it.
That just invites escalation. Kids who are misbehaving (younger ones, anyway) are generally just trying to tell you something they're not otherwise able to articulate -- "This situation isn't right for me" or "I have a need you're not fulfilling."
It's a bit of a push-pull thing as they age and are able to start mastering themselves -- they act out a little, you correct a little, both sides assess what's going on; sometimes they adjust, sometimes you need to remove them from the situation. Rinse and repeat till they're civilized.
If your children are either too young or too ill-mannered to behave properly in a given setting then you should simply stay home or get a sitter. It's really simple. I have a two year old and a six month old: I don't get out much these days because I refuse to be the asshole parent disrupting someone's meal/cup of coffee/whatever. Besides people look at me funny when I take them in bars.
To all the Responsible parents who control their children in public or, when unable to do so for whatever reason, refrain from taking them into adult settings, my deepest, most heartfelt thanks.
For the rest, well, as someone who doesn't have children and never, ever intends to have children (and neither does the missus, in case you're curious), and who has had countless meals and movies ruined by your selfish incompetence, I'd like to remind you that having children is a choice.
If you ain't willing to raise them properly, don't have them. It's really that simple.
Dear Tim Haas:
Please have 18 - 25 more children at your earliest convenience. The world needs more like you.
***
I'm all of 27 years old. I'm too young to shake my fist at those damn kids, but...those damn kids!
Every time I encounter little ones in public, I have cause to think, "my mother would have killed me if I acted like that!" - and I was fairly spoiled. My parents were softies, but they also just had a basic standard about how one should act in public.
Having said that, I can see TimCavanaugh's point about the eerie silence.
Jennifer, I like the way you express yourself.
I accept the reports of two commenters that there are differences in temperament among sprouts, although in both cases wasn't the quiet one the first-born? I think it's still good science that early birth order means less household chaos and more mental focus, if less robust group skills, in the formative years.
I can't deny my own perceptions of class and manners, or lack of same, in people. Perhaps the dignity of class rituals establishes a different baseline, i.e., one CAN conform on appropriate occasions. And manners used to be taught, forcefully and quickly and by embarassment and shame, as a tool of upward mobility. I think many of these mothers feel they have arrived; but I often see a chip-on-the-shoulder defensiveness below that false, surface self-esteem that can break into pure nastiness when challenged.
A proprietor has the right to maintain the sort of public house he sees fit, be it Chuck-E-Cheese with kids gone wild or the Blue Parrot coffeehouse with chessboards and discussions of art. Sounds like the guy in question might be a bit huffy, but if the neighborhood changes too much, he gotta move.
Please have 18 - 25 more children at your earliest convenience.
I'm afraid we shut down production before quality-control errors could start creeping in. But thanks for the kind words!
It's sad that its reached the point that store owners have to tell their patrons to act like parents, but since that's the case I'm all for it. I don't *hate kids* by any stretch of the imagination, but it's good for everyone--the kids included--to learn that different situations have different behavior requirements. The blame rests almost entirely with bad parenting--there's not a kid in the world that wants to hang out in Starbucks, but if their parents take them there its incumbant upon them that they learn to behave and their parents to teach them how. There's nothing wrong with having a division in our society that there are places for adults and places for children. Like the initial poster noted, if I go to Chuck E. Cheese and demand that I be allowed to smoke a cigar, drink a martini and hang out in piece and quiet then *I'm* the ass. If a parent takes his kid into an adult situation without strictly monitoring and controling their behavior than the *parent* is the ass....
And manners used to be taught, forcefully and quickly and by embarassment and shame, as a tool of upward mobility
Wow, that's what's missing. Shame. Where'd shame get off to? I haven't seen anyone exhibit shame in years.
I see it as a product of the weird new fad for tomblike silence in coffee shops
The coffeehouse I go to doesn't have much of a kid problem except for the once-a-day crowd of very loud ballet students from the other end of the mall, but man I hate those zombies with their laptops. I don't even understand the logic involved -- they spend $2500+ for a good laptop but then won't spring for an extra $20 a month to get cable internet, so they have to schlep to the coffeehouse for hours at a time to use the free wireless so they can get a halfway decent surfing experience going.
I don't know exactly why the zombies bother me so much -- it's just disconcerting I suppose to see someone acting like a hermit in a public place. Offends my barely existent sense of feng shui, maybe.
I'm glad that somebody has the guts to let parents know that they have to control their kids while in public places. I think that most parents do not bring their kids to public places, it's only a selected few.
1. As a network support tech for a family of medical clinics I often encounter untended children through out the clinics. I look them in the eye and ask in a deliberatly deep voice, "Where is your mother?" The usual response is to shutup and look around for mom followed by their retreat toward mom.
2. Sometimes when out in public and witnessing bad behavior by little ones who are accompanied by their mother, I approach the mother and in my sweetest voice say, "I'm sorry." The mother always asks why I am sorry. Then I tell them that I'm sure that I must have behaved similarly when I was a kid and since my mom isn't here that I'm appologizing to her instead. Then I leave her alone to figure out if I have been nice or mean.
Bee: "Wow, that's what's missing. Shame. Where'd shame get off to? I haven't seen anyone exhibit shame in years."
That question, along with many of the others raised in this thread, is addressed here.
I once waited on a party in which the mother handed her toddler the entire container of sugar and sweetener packets to entertain herself with by tearing them open and smearing their contents all over the table.
i witnessed similar behavior recently at a restaurant. i'm a new parent -- too new to have had a toddler -- but i was aghast. the total oblivion of the parents at their kids ran into table corners and jammed silverware and butter pats into their mouths was gut-wrenching.
i look at this behavior as part of a larger social deterioration (big surprise) as people give up on interacting with the world -- even their kids -- in favor of withdrawing into purely selfish activity, basically abdicating any responsibility.
Don't these parents get embarrassed? I was mortified that my child had started to scream.
i have to agree w/ mr haas and mr lurker parent -- i cringe at the thought of my girl acting out in public, and have no qualms about staying out of public places until we can shepherd her past that stage. but it seems many parents -- most of us generally, i think -- are simply too selfish to consider having their prerogative impinged upon by anyone, be it restauranteur, fellow client or their own child.
and i further agree w/ mr haas that this public behavior is a massive deterioration from even thrity years ago in my (midwestern) neck of the woods -- part and parcel to our society's slow-motion suicide in favor of the unmitigated self.
Every age develops its own peculiar forms of pathology, which express in exaggerated form its underlying character structure,? the historian and social critic Christopher Lasch wrote in The Culture of Narcissism. For Lasch, writing in 1979, that character structure was an unrelenting narcissism, one that threatened to undermine the rugged individualism of previous eras and, quite possibly, liberalism itself. His book ?describes a way of life that is dying,? he wrote in the introduction, ?the culture of competitive individualism, which in its decadence has carried the logic of individualism to the extreme of a war of all against all, [and] the pursuit of happiness to the dead end of a narcissistic preoccupation with the self.?
amen, mr sp. excellent citation.
To all parents who can't seem to resolve this dilemma between becoming a hermit and having your little Attilas run amok in public:
there is an ancient--and apparently antiquated--concept called a "babysitter". Look it up.
Jennifer,
"And your love for childless people telling you how to parent is rivalled only by my love for people who think the spawn of their prolific genitalia should be the center of my universe in addition to their own."
My sentiments exactly. Except I wouldn't have mentioned genitals.
And am I the only one who'd like to see the Gaius Marius Guide to Parenting?
Windypundit--
I only mention them to piss the parents off. It's something I learned from reading too much Vonnegut as a kid--even the most noble of concepts can sound cheap and dirty if you use the right (or wrong!) words. So around my friends, or children who behave properly, I use words and phrases like "children," "kids," "little ones" "the future" and so forth; for the offspring of hellspawn like the entitled-bitch mamas in the article (or perhaps the newly single-worded TimCavanaugh, based on his deep sympathy for them?) I prefer phrases like "spawn of your prolific genitalia" or "whatever the fuck it is that crawled out from between your legs nine months after you got plastered on cheap tequila."
The thing I find most ironic is that the parents who defend the obnoxiousness of their children in public probably also were the same sorts of people making sarcastically disapproving comments about other peoples' children when they were once childless. I'm not defending these people, by any means, but since I've become a parent I've noticed this peculiar irrationalism that takes place in the parent's mind whereby no matter what your kid does, and how much it bothered you as a pre-parent, it just doesn't seem as annoying as it should seem. Perhaps this is a necessary parental instinct that keeps you from killing your own offspring. One insight for those of you still sitting on the 'other side' of the reproductive fence: other peoples' children are still annoying to even parents with the most hatefully badly behaved kids. This particular form of hypocracy is probably the most common in the universe, the same mentality that has the mothers of death row convicts stating things such as 'he's basically a good kid' etc.
For my part I have to constantly put myself in other people's shoes to remember what is most likely to irritate me or would have irritated me before I had a child and try to intercede appropriately when my daughter's behavior crosses that line.
On the coffee shop issue, my particular neck of the woods is pretty family oriented and the coffee houses all have play areas for kids. The worst behavior I have experienced taking my 2 & 1/2 year old to the coffee shop usually comes when it is time to leave, as she is having fun playing with the toys or other children and does not want to leave or wants to take toys with her.
Gaius,
Just because your kid performed well the last twenty times you went out, doesn't mean she will the next time. (I think Hume understood this. Perhaps his experiences with children informed his philosophy :)). So, figuring out when your child is up for a more adult context is an inexact science. I'm not excusing the moms in the article, but I do think that people will, even in the best circumstances, have to excuse having to hear the occasional high-pitched whine.
OTOH, as a former waiter, I can attest to the existence of parents who allow their children to be feral in completely unsuitable places. I didn't work at Applebee's. I was mainly a fine-dining waiter. Why anyone would take their kids to a restaurant where the entrees are 30$ and pump them full of cokes is beyond me. Make no mistake, it IS the parents fault in that case. You have to be some kind of idiot to expect children to behave with tons of sugar and caffeine in their systems.
but I do think that people will, even in the best circumstances, have to excuse having to hear the occasional high-pitched whine.
There's a difference, though--babies cry, any rational adult understands that, and I won't complain or shoot a dirty look to a woman whose baby just started to cry. In fact, if she does the right thing (i.e., takes the kid outside) I'll give her a sympathetic smile on the way. My complaint is with those mothers who will do nothing as their kid starts squalling, or thinks it's "cute" to take a bored and screaming child into a roomful of adults and allow said child to ruin everything for the grownups there.
Really, everyone just needs to think ahead and be responsible. Screaming children in a park? Well, it's a park, there are going to be screaming children there. Don't like it, don't go.
Taking your infant into the late showing of a 3+ hour action movie like, oh, say, "The Fellowship of the Ring" and then ignoring it as it intermittently shrieks for the last 45 minutes of the movie? Bad idea, and it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to predict that.
I know, I know, I just need to let that one go.
I was just stopping by to make sure mediageek isn't offering any parental advice.
Happy turkey day!
And here's another link this discussion has been missing.
rivalled only by my love for people who think the spawn of their prolific genitalia should be the center of my universe in addition to their own.
No, you misinterpret. I believe that my prolific genitalia should be the center of your universe, not to mention the universe of all attractive women from 20-50.
That said, I make sure that my 5 year old has a good slug of wine before dinner when I take him to a restaurant. That's gotten me nasty looks, but in the Bay Area, it's much less risky than a swat on the bottom.
And we wonder why cities are losing the under 12 set?
http://themamadiaries.blogspot.com/2005/11/youre-scaring-single-people.html
Screaming kids have no business in public! They belong in the baby hut - which can be found right next to the menstruation hut, for the confused mothers out there.
But seriously, the people who hog the tables with their all-day studying and turn a social establishment into a library annoy me more than kids, as much as I generally dislike those noisy little rugrats.
The thing that annoyed me about the parents and about parents in general is the "I hate non-parents telling parents how to do their job" bit.
Couldn't you as easily say "I hate non-coffeshop-owners telling coffeeshop owners how to do their job"?
Or, I saw a preview yesterday for a movie that appeared to have no redeeming features whatsoever, but I've never made a movie, so I shouldn't have the right to say "My god, that looks like a waste of film"
My mom used to pull me aside before we would go out somewhere in public and slap me upside the head real hard. When I would ask what that was for, she would tell me that it was to inform me of what to expect if I decided to act up wherever we were going.
As for controlling me in public, my mom was an old school "there's nothing a good beating can't solve" kind of mom. So if I acted up at a restaurant or cafe or something, she would grab me, take me out to the car, and whoop my ass. She would then make me stop crying and take be back in the establishment. if anyone would ask what happened she would say "he just needed his aspirin thats all".
It got to the point where I didn't need more than the right look from mom to realize I am about to cross that line, and I would straigten right up.
Ahh the good old days. I wish more parents had boundaries for their kids. The whole "I cant tell my kid not to..." is such a cop-out. Don't have kids if you don't think kids can be controlled.
My childhood experiences were just like ChicagoTom's. My parents would take me outside, whack me a few times, and explain the situation. I saw that as totally normal, and still do to this day. After all, people tend to forget that we are just smart animals, and that at a young age, when we don't have as much reason as we do when we get older, physical love, punishment, etc. is still quite effective.
I don't understand all of the previous posts with people saying, "I can't hit my kid in public". Why not? I run a retail store, and on the very, very, very rare occasions when a parent disciplines their kid in my store, myself and my employees are all quite relieved that some people still know how to parent. I can't begin to count the number of times that I've had to tell kids not to torment a dog (pet supply shop), not to climb on the shelves, etc. 90% of the time after a kid comes in and leaves the store, my employees come in the back to vent about it (because 90% of the time, the kids are spoiled shits), and we generally agree that said child needed a good beating.
I agree with Jennifer. I raised two daughters. The first one grew up attached to books, and was no preparation whatsoever for the second one. But my wife and I let them run amok in the back yard, and kept them civilized in public.
We used multiple reinforcement methods, from a pop on the bottom to, "If you aren't grown up enough to behave in Daddy's store, obviously you aren't grown up enough to take to the toy store."
IMO a major problem today is the number of single parents trying to raise kids. There were times when I just had to get away from mine for a couple of hours, and my wife raised running away for the weekend to an art form. I can't imagine being a parent without an I-can-always-leave-them-with-the-other-parent relief valve.
I work in a store as well. I don't know if it's the fact that it's a gun store or that it's located in a small town, but I very seldom have kids I need to watch closer than their parents are.
Skepticos writes:
Anyone notice how Tim always seems to sound just like a politico about to work up some steam on a "drug" issue?
Well, I'm not noticing it, but I'm not the most objective observer. Has Waxman been making speeches mocking his constituents lately?
Writing about something means you understand it, right?
Get bent, Mr Cavanaugh.
Oh, good lord. Before Paimon gets banned for life I'd like to tell him it was nice knowing him around these here parts.
Oh, good lord. Before Paimon gets banned for life I'd like to tell him it was nice knowing him around these here parts.
😉
I'm here to stay.
I'm here to stay.
That is entirely dependent on the mood of Mr., Cavanaugh, aka the finest man in the history of the planet, whom I absolutely adore and view as a slightly balding god and I'm not just saying this to avoid being banned for life again.
So long as he's not suffering too badly from post-feast indigestion you should be all right, though, Paimon.
That is entirely dependent on the mood of Mr., Cavanaugh, aka the finest man in the history of the planet, whom I absolutely adore and view as a slightly balding god and I'm not just saying this to avoid being banned for life again.
So long as he's not suffering too badly from post-feast indigestion you should be all right, though, Paimon.
He is a brilliant writer and a worthy mentor; he is not now now and never will be beyond criticism.
Besides, he couldn't permanently ban me even if he wanted to.
I wish you a peaceful night, Jennifer.
Paz.
My "coffee shop" has wireless internet. Can I turn up the sound on the hardcore porn I'm looking at on my laptop to drown out the sound of the rugrats?
Local Cynic--
That is a brilliant idea. Although porn in view of kids might get you arrested for a sex crime (seriously), so maybe you should instead find something horribly explicitly violent. It's illegal to let little kids see two (or possibly more) people having sex, but watching some guy get disemboweled and then strangled with his own intestines is perfectly acceptable.
"Use your inside voice" is the polite way of saying "Don't yucking fell".
I had a good laugh about the whole child vs. childless conflict. We have three sons, ages 6, 3, and 14 months. Honest, Jennifer, we don't go into coffee shops or restaurants, for reasons which you all so eloquently cite. We don't frequent places like Chuck E. Cheese, either, for reasons like good taste.
And, hell, there's no way I could be mistaken for a beauty queen, former or otherwise.
Might I suggest a more humorous look at the issue?
YOU'RE SCARING THE SINGLE PEOPLE
The day comes when you are out with your baby in the stroller when you realize you're scaring the single people. It all starts out innocently enough.
Your husband, being a kind, considerate kind of soul, encourages you to go out for a walk with your baby, leaving him home with the older two children. It being a sunny day, you jump at the chance, slipping on your shoes, grabbing your sunglasses and heading out the door with a cheery wave.
You're in a chipper mood, despite you were up between 2:30 and 4:30 last night with your teething baby. Never mind that the older two hopped out of bed at 6 a.m. It's the weekend, the sky is bright, the baby's finally asleep, and you're out in the glorious fresh air.
You pass a Starbucks, think about it, but decide against it. (I mean, who wants to maneuver the Peg Perego stroller through the mid morning coffee crowd.) You assume the glances are directed towards your sleeping angel. You pass the caf?, where a line is out the door for . . . breakfast? no, surely not. It's 10:30! (you've been up since 5:30 a.m.) These people couldn't possibly have slept that late.
You keep going, smiling to yourself. Then, you pass another trendy caf? where people are sitting down, laughing, sipping their frothy coffee concoctions. This time, you notice a well dressed, neatly coiffed, manicured, woman with impeccable makeup look at you, then lean over to her similarly attired friend and say something which makes her look at at you and also laughs.
You think to yourself, "what the heck?" What's their problem? So, you're wearing two year old sneakers with ancient jeans and a t-shirt. So, you only finger combed your hair after the shower this morning and it's (gasp!) somewhat windblown after your walk. So, you're walking slightly hunched over because the freaking stroller manufacturers don't think that 5 foot 8 inch tall women have babies.
Then, somewhere in your sleep deprived brain, you remember there was also a time when you sat sipping (not gulping) an overpriced beverage on a sunny afternoon while out for brunch with friends. You, too once went to salons to get your hair done every (hah!) six weeks. Remember makeup? Nailpolish? Facials? Being able to wear black without any smudges marring the pristine expanse? C'mon! You even remember discussing the news, the latest movies, or books that weren't authored by Dr. Seuss.
You feel like carrying around a miniature copy of your diploma, not to mention your master's degree, so you can whip it out and show it to those sneering women. Then, you remember way back when, when you got scared, too. Then you laugh, head home, and hope you'll see them again next week.
http://themamadiaries.blogspot.com/2005/11/youre-scaring-single-people.html
I already read your article from the link you posted, Kirsten. And at no point did I mean to imply that every single person who procreates turns into a monster of self-centeredness.
Children are not customers of coffee shops.
Coffee shops are not daycare centers.
I am a daily coffee shop customer (local, not Starbucks).
If there were small children at my favorite coffee shop, I would find a different coffee shop.
Kids are annoying. Admit it.
i had a conversation with my mom and dad about this, while my wife leafed through my baby pictures. apparently, at age 4 i blackmailed my mother by saying "get me xyz toy and i won't tell my sister there is no santa claus."
her reaction? she threatened me with some "or else" clause which was extremely effective. more importantly, she didn't give in. a lot of people seem to give in a lot more with kids.
at least, that's their take on it. i am childfree and mind neither brat nor milf terror, since the kids are funny and all the post-natal yoga classes are really paying off...meaning i won't tell them how to raise their kids so long as they don't tell me how to beat off on their front lawn at 3 in the afternoon.
Don't blame the children!
The irresponsible parents should be smacked upside the head (but the responsible ones should be congratulated).
Anecdote:
My step sister read way too many pop-child-psych books. She refused to control her kids and the kids would ruin the peace for anyone around. One day she asked my mother how she dealt with my sister and me when we had a tantrum. She said, "They never had tantrums," which my step sister refused to believe. My mother simply refused to be embarrassed by us in public and she made sure that we understood that. We knew that there would be unpleasant consequences if we misbehaved.
"Anyway, one night I brought my laptop into the basement gameroom, I popped in the sci-fi classic "Aliens," and plugged in my head phones. "
Damn. Get a life, man.
Douglas Fletcher writes: "but man I hate those zombies with their laptops. I don't even understand the logic involved -- they spend $2500+ for a good laptop but then won't spring for an extra $20 a month to get cable internet, so they have to schlep to the coffeehouse for hours at a time to use the free wireless so they can get a halfway decent surfing experience going."
They probably do have decent internet at home. People who sit and read, or sit and jot in a notebook, could also do those things at home.
What they don't have at home is the possibility of in-person human contact. Which may or may not actually happen at a coffee shop, but there's at least the possibility.
Ah, the age old battle of Parents v. Non-Parents!
People who think the universe revolves around their kids versus people who think the universe revolves around them...
If they allowed people to smoke in coffee shops, maybe these parents would think twice about bringing their kids into such places.
Kirsten: zzzzzzzzz. And turn off Smart Quotes et al.
Hey, my brats like coffee shops.
See my dad had it wired. Misbehave in public and it was knock it off or I'm going to take you out to the car. You did not want to go out to the car. No, no, no, no. So you shut up and minded your P's & Q's regardless of how bored you were.
And Eric, in the same vein, children are great so long as they are well done.
Tim, been there done that. Staying home works. But they always amaze you. My Ritalin Poster Child recently spent two hours at a funeral, followed by two hours at a friend's house surrounded by drunk adults trying to forget they had just come from a funeral, followed by two hours at a restaurant, and was perfectly behaved the entire day.
People who think the universe revolves around their kids versus people who think the universe revolves around them...
There's a huge difference between "thinking the universe revolves around me" versus "wanting to go to an adult-oriented business without hearing a small misbehaving child scream."
Sounds like you should go to a bar instead if avoiding kids is such a high priority.
It;s not "avoiding kids," Dan, it's "avoiding kids who are behaving improperly." Surely you can see the difference?
But as a libertarian, you are not allowed to have opinions on what "proper behavior" is, as long as they are not stealing or damaging your property.
But as a libertarian, you are not allowed to have opinions on what "proper behavior" is, as long as they are not stealing or damaging your property.
You're joking, right?
I am raising my four kids as libertarians. They quickly learn that the freedom they enjoy comes at a high price. They need to respect the freedom of everyone they come in contact with. That means no annoying loud behavior; no pushing and shoving, and no running around inside buildings. The kids understand they are allowed to do anything they want that does not disturb other people. They see this as a fair deal. I am not afraid to take the gang anyplace, and I know they will have a great time without me having to police them every minute. I treat them with respect and they respond by acting responsibly. I think parenting is a lot easier than most people claim. It has been a thoroughly enjoyable experience for a guy who previously wanted to avoid all contact with children.
Doesn't anyone just shrug off things and laugh anymore?
http://themamadiaries.blogspot.com/2005/11/when-i-have-children.html