"A Big Mistake" from a Guy Who Knows Big Mistakes (Iraq Was a Screw-Up Edition)

Via Democrat-whore site (and I mean that in a purely descriptive sense) Truthout comes this AP story in the Brit Guardian (got that?):

Former President Clinton told Arab students Wednesday the United States made a "big mistake'' when it invaded Iraq, stoking the partisan debate back home over the war.

Clinton cited the lack of planning for what would happen after Saddam Hussein was overthrown.

"Saddam is gone. It's a good thing, but I don't agree with what was done,'' Clinton told students at a forum at the American University of Dubai.

"It was a big mistake. The American government made several errors … one of which is how easy it would be to get rid of Saddam and how hard it would be to unite the country.''

Not that he is wrong about that, but here's more here from the guy who made regime change in Iraq official US policy and bombed the place (and invaded elsewhere) just about every time Monica L showed up with an abortion-free Domino's pizza and a thong and he started spouting…poetry.

Comments

[Tony]

Former President Clinton seems to be saying only that the war strategy was bad, without implying that we shouldn't have invaded. The AP seems to be skewing it to imply that he attacked the war in general. Either Clinton intended his words to mean only what he said or he was using rhetoric to imply something while maintaining deniability. Am I reading that wrong?

Personally, I think the AP is interpretting too broadly, but with Clinton, I reserve the right to accept my other option.

[Phil]

"regime change" != "full-scale shittily-planned invasion," as I'm sure Gillespie knows despite his attempt to pull yet another, "Look! Bill Clinton!"

[theCoach]

Bill Clinton compares favorably with any modern President. Not a high bar perhaps. Eisenhower is his only competition.

[quasibill]

"Since advocates of limited government are not trying to build a "utopia", it's a blatant misuse of the word to use it against them."

Clinton, like all politicians, is good at implying all sorts of things using ambiguous language. That way, he can always go back, parse the language a different way, and say "that's not what I said!" all the while leaving exactly the impression that he desires to leave.

See also, Bush, G.W.

[quasibill]

Sorry, the quote somehow didn't take when I said "copy".

this is what I meant to quote:

"Either Clinton intended his words to mean only what he said or he was using rhetoric to imply something while maintaining deniability."

[thoreau]

I miss Bill Clinton.

Although, having an attractive young wife in the DC area makes me kind of glad that he's up in NY.

OK, maybe I don't miss him so much.

[kwais]

Bill Clinton compares favorably with any modern President. Not a high bar perhaps. Eisenhower is his only competition.

Hmmm;
-Using the nations military to bomb a medicine factory to cover your pejury

-Having raped a woman

-Attempting to get an intern to commit pejury on his behalf

-Signing a sexual harrasment law for Americans to obey, and then violating that same law

-The strategy of bombing Iraq and causing starvation with the embargo.

I mean he still might compare favorably to other presidents. But that is a pretty sad claim. I didn't even get into the draft dodging, travelgate, whitewater or any of that other crap.

[kwais]

Oh yeah; Somalia, the Balkans, unanswered terrorist attacts that led our enemies to decide that we are a paper tiger. 911 is basically Clintons fault for crist sakes.

OK I should stop typing now the valium is kicking in.

[kwais]

The number one cool thing about bush that sucks about Clinton; foreigners love the lying gun controlling, tax rasing sleazebag that was clinton, but they hate bush. For that reason alone I love Bush, and hate Clinton.

[Hakluyt]

This will surely get us five hundred posts. We've got the war in Iraq and Clinton's sexual forays to muddle over. Now if we can just work in something on the fall of the Roman Empire. 🙂

[linguist]

My little local RedEye commuter rag had a longer cut of this story (on the same page that reported the 83,000 war detainees...interesting juxtaposition).

Seems the real heart of Bill's argument is, "The mistake that they made is that when they kicked out Saddam, they decided to dismantle the whole authority structure of Iraq."

Which I thought was interesting. Should we have left the Baathists in power? Discuss. 😉

[Viking Moose]

Hak,

see the top post on H&R.

(splitters.)

[Hakluyt]

linguist,

Yes. We left the Nazis in power in Germany (minus some high level officials). Bremer or whoever apparently wasn't very cognizant of that action.

[Hakluyt]

linguist,

More to the point, the vast majority of mid-level and lower Nazi and non-Nazi bureaucrats were still in their same jobs in 1946 as they were in 1945 (at least in West Germany).

[Todd Fletcher]

thoreau, have you seen a pic of Monica lately? If your wife is attractive, you have nothing to worry about.

[Hakluyt]

I have to ask, did Bremer or any of these other people actually study "post-conflict" occupation history of the U.S. or any other country? I mean, there are literally tons of books written on this subject. Did any of them even realize that de-Baathification meant neutering the country of its bereaucratic and warrior class?

[Hakluyt]

Somebody in this administration needs to fucking read Sun-Tzu if they read anything.

[fair]

So Truthout is a "Democrat whore site"? I take it that in the interest of bipartisanship, Gillespie will begin referring to Christopher Hitchens as a "Chalabi nut sucker."

[Jennifer]

Really, Thoreau, you should have more faith in your wife. As a non-Southern woman she might find it more difficult than I would to handle Clinton in full horndog mode--she probably has less experience dealing with the species Southernus poonhoundus--but honestly, neither she, nor I, nor any sensible woman is in danger of being seduced by a guy whose idea of romance is to quote poetry by Walt Whitman.

Whitman, for Chrissakes! Have you read his stuff?!? Byron I could see. Keats. Yeats, even, if you're a spooky Goth type. But Whitman?

[thoreau]

I know she'll be faithful, but I still don't want him bothering her.

Although, as Todd pointed out, I have nothing to worry about. My wife is slender and she doesn't have ridiculous big hair.

[Ruthless]

"Should we have left the Baathists in power?"

Dubya didn't look at this as a military person would have looked at it. He wanted to install democracy, not to minimally disrupt a society.

(I'm an expert, btw. I took the civil affairs course down at Fort Gordon, GA, many years ago.)

[Hakluyt]

Ruthless,

They assumed (apparently) that they could use the vast majority of the population to quell any problems.

Since I've read a bunch of books on post-conflict occupations does that make me an expert too? 🙂

[Ruthless]

Does Mrs. thoreau have a little junk in her trunk?

Where the hell is this thread headed?

[Hakluyt]

Ruthless,

Apparently they didn't realize that (a) the warrior class are the Sunnis, and (b) the Shi-ites were going to take a lot of time to get ready for combat.

[Hakluyt]

Ruthless,

To the scrapheap like every other thread. 🙂

[Jennifer]

I know she'll be faithful, but I still don't want him bothering her.

I dunno, Thoreau, it's kind of like worrying about gnats. On the one hand, of course they're going to bother her. On the other hand--so what? They're just gnats.

Clinton may well have been a slut, but I still think he was a better President (or rather, a less bad President) than the Daddy's-boy idiot we've got now. And for all that I'll make jokes about Clinton's poonhoundery, I really don't care. Actually, although I've never had any desire to sleep with a fat old married guy twice my age, when the whole Monica thing was going down (no pun intended) I actually wished I could have traded places with her, to demonstrate how a proper, respectable Other Woman should behave when ordered to discuss her sex life in court: "Mr. Starr, whether or not I had consensual sex with another grown-up is none of your goddamned business."

Harrumph. I was still working as a stripper at the time, yet I had more advanced standards of proper behavior than a damned White House intern. Dammit, Monica, if you're goijng to be a hussy, then do it right!

[Jennifer]

Also, I really think Bush would be less obnoxious (paradoxically) if he'd go back on the blow. The thing is, the upright qualities that might make someone a good Husband'n'Father--low, easily-controlled sex drive, boring, proper bourgeois middle-class churchiness and so forth--aren't necessarily good qualities in the Leader of the Strongest Nation on Earth.

It was Patton, I think, who said "Men who can't fight can't fuck." I daresay the reverse is true--men who can't fuck can't fight.

[dhex]

"Yeats, even, if you're a spooky Goth type."

boo! that's not true. they might be a bookish irish lass.

[Jennifer]

Bookish Irish lass, spooky Goth type--these days, what's the difference? Pale English-major types who scrupulously avoid the sun. . . .

[doubled]

"Did any of them even realize that de-Baathification meant neutering the country of its bereaucratic and warrior class?"
Losing the warriors was problematic , but who would ever regret the lack of bereaucrats?

[Hakluyt]

doubled,

To run a society like Iraq you need them.

[doubled]

"The thing is, the upright qualities that might make someone a good Husband'n'Father--low, easily-controlled sex drive, boring, proper bourgeois middle-class churchiness and so forth--aren't necessarily good qualities in the Leader of the Strongest Nation on Earth. " Perhaps you are correct , but the opposite type (poonhound dog or whatever) does leave a person open to blackmailers and other unsavory characters who would love to influence your decision making no?

[Jennifer]

Doubled--

Much as I like bureaucrat jokes you need at least some of them to run a country. Even assuming every single insurgent and bomber is gone. The Iraqi oil rigs, for instance--do you think people will just walk up to them on their own and start doing repairs and generating income? No, you need someone to manage and oversee the process. Preferably someone who knows a thing or two about oil, although a professional race-horse judge who's buddies with the President could also do a heck of a job, I guess.

[Jennifer]

Perhaps you are correct , but the opposite type (poonhound dog or whatever) does leave a person open to blackmailers and other unsavory characters who would love to influence your decision making no?

I remember, way back in the early 80s, having an argument with my career-Navy Dad. He supported tha ban on gays in the military for the same reason you mentioned here--because gay servicemen are open to blackmail. And I pointed out that they are only blackmailable because the service has such a stick-up-the-butt attitude toward it. (Naturally I didn't say "stick up the butt" to my father, but y'all know what I mean.")

[Hakluyt]

This where Shannon Love steps in and talks about how more healthy societies are which punish philandering.

[doubled]

My reference to bereaucrats was a poor attempt at a joke , of course they are needed in any government, or business for that matter . As to equating Clinton's piccadillo's with gays , I don't see the comparison . A grunt would have less sensitive info that the President , couldn't make executive decisions that affect others etc.... Further , it was clear that Clinton was uncomfortable with just admitting the truth about Lewinski , why? Did the Paula Jones HARRASSMENT suit have anything to do with his lack of candor to admitting the affair ,trashing the woman for daring to 'out' their relationship?

[Jason Ligon]

Blah. Who stunk worse, Clinton or Bush. I hate these threads. Blah, I say.

[Viking Moose the anti east coa]

chix that fall for that suthren bullshit are usually white zin drinkers from jersey who use phrases such as "smart people wouldn't do [activity they ostensibly have rejected]"

and talk about how hard rockers are really gentlemen. and have nelson action figure dildos.(or is it "dildoes". hmmmmmmmmm. we need a cunning linguist here. ja ja.)

[Jennifer]

Further , it was clear that Clinton was uncomfortable with just admitting the truth about Lewinski , why? Did the Paula Jones HARRASSMENT suit have anything to do with his lack of candor to admitting the affair ,trashing the woman for daring to 'out' their relationship?

Again, Doubled, you're confusing society's disdain with an actual problem. Heck, there's nothing wrong with a President who picks his nose while reading documents in the Oval Office--yet he'd be reluctant to go on TV and say "My fellow Americans, you should have seen the size of what I dug out this morning!"

Famous chaste world leaders of history: Jimmy Carter, one of the most incompetent US presidents of hte 20th century. Adolf Hitler, the ONLY WW2 leader to be sexually faithful to the woman in his life.

SEXUAL morality is different from other kinds--I'd be leery of voting for a man who's a thief, a kidnapper, or a wife-beater, but a man who sleeps around a lot? Well, his wife has cause for concern--but who else really does?

[joe]

The only thing that makes war supporters grumpier than someone pointing out the obvious, is Bill Clinton pointing out the obvious.

I like the implication that supporting a foreign policy goals means supporting an Iraqi-type war in pursuit of that goal. Now that's principled libertarianism!

[Jennifer]

I like the implication that supporting a foreign policy goals means supporting an Iraqi-type war in pursuit of that goal. Now that's principled libertarianism!

But, Joe! Er. . . ah. . . sex!! And, and furthermore. . . . blowjob! Adultery! Inhale to the Chief!

What other arguments must I mention to demonstrate that nothing Bill Clinton ever says must ever, ever be taken seriously?

Oh, yeah---marital orgasms! Take that, you lefty piece of shit!

[Jennifer]

Make that "NON-marital orgasms." What is the fucking point of the "Insert" button on the keyboard, anyway? God, I hate it.

[Jennifer]

"My fellow Americans, my opponent for the office of the President has experienced orgasms. Yes--orgasms! Not even inflicted by his wife, either! Is that the kind of person you want in charge of this country?

Orgasms--bad for morality. Bad for America."

[Lowdog]

Jennifer, would you have said: "Mr. Starr, whether or not I had consensual sex with another grown-up is none of your goddamned business." with a sultry southern accent? Cuz that's hot!

Hakluyt - I thought you were an expert on every subject. 🙂

[Jennifer]

"Also, my fellow Americans, you won't catch my wife taking the Lord's name in vain when we're having sex. None of this 'Oh God, oh Jesus' vileness--when I have sex with my wife she stays still and keeps her mouth shut, like a proper American woman should!

Orgasms--bad for morality. Bad for America."

Lowdog--Hell yeah, honeychile.

[Shem]

Further , it was clear that Clinton was uncomfortable with just admitting the truth about Lewinski , why?

You mean if you were married to Hillary Clinton you *wouldn't* be reluctant to admit an affair to her? I'd be afraid I'd wake up replaced by an alien replicon from beyond the moon.

[Sam McManus]

"Saddam is gone. It's a good thing, but I don't agree with what was done."

Without context, this seems totally contradictory; he thinks it's good, but doesn't think it should have been done? AP sure knows how to pick its quotes...

[joe]

"Er. . . ah. . . sex!! And, and furthermore. . . . blowjob! Adultery! Inhale to the Chief!"

No, no, Jennfer, these are Libertarians. It's "Aspirin factory! Cruise missiles at Bin Laden camps! (which is, apparently, a criticism). Ending the Yugo wars! (Also, apparently, a criticism).

[joe]

Oh, Jennifer, I forgot one: "when he was president, Clinton had a pre-9/11 mindset - that BASTARD!"

[Jennifer]

Oh yeah, Joe? Well, blowjobs didn't inhale comestained dress Billary ugly wife right the fuck back at ya.

[Jennifer]

Joe, he. Had. An. Orgasm. What more proof do you need that the man is, was and forevermore shall be completely unfit to be President?

[joe]

Jennifer,

Is it wrong that your last message got me hot?

[joe]

I meant the 12:08 message! 12:08! Honest to God! Want to see me pick up that tree stump?!?

[Jennifer]

Is it wrong that your last message got me hot?

It is wrong for anything to get you hot. That's why so many Clinton-haters get themselves all worked up about sex-things without even mentioning anything about actual foreign or domestic policy--because it's the orgasms that piss them off the most.

Orgasms--bad for morality. Bad for America.

[Phil]

I like kwais's implication that it's wrong for Bill Clinton to bomb and "starve" Iraqis, but it's meet and just for George W. Bush to simply frag them.

[Jennifer]

Phil--

Kwais also said 9-11 was Clinton's fault. Remember when Clinton got that memo titled "Bin Laden determined to attack US," and instead of doing anything about it he just went on another month-long vacation? And changed the CIA from an intelligence-gathering agency into an agency whose job is to cherry-pick data to support the President's foregone colclusions?

But if you think Bush is perhaps an incompetent president--think how much worse he'd be with a sex life. I guess.

[Akira MacKenzie]

While I certainly didn't think he was the worst president we've ever had (though I would never vote for him), I would have to say that the nastiest side effect of Clinton's administration was that it seems to have permanently unhinged conservatives. Before Clinton was elected, conservatives couldn't have imaged anyone becoming president except a geriatric WWII vat with Norman Rockwell visions of Americana. Then, out of nowhere, this so-called draft-dodging, Vietnam-protesting, child of the counter-culture the Right so despised throws his hat into the ring. Why, he even admitted to smoking THE DOPE! Surely the American people wouldn't elect such a degenerate? Right?

Well, they did. Jingoism and moralizing about "family values" didn't win the Republican's the day. For the next eight years we got to watch conservatives slowly meltdown as their radio squawk show pontificating and cheap shots failed to convince the voters to do away with him. To them, Clinton's presidency was nothing short of an apocalyptic horror; a clear sign that decadence and immorality had decayed America.

Of course, if Clinton unhinged the Right, then 9/11 blew their lids right off. They're freaking nuts now, and Dubbya presidency is a clear example of their collective insanity.

[Akira MacKenzie]

Edit: WWII vet

[joe]

Phil,

Bill Clinton, and various UN administrators, are personally responisble for every Iraqi that went to be hungry from 1992 - 2003.

Meanwhile, there is absolutely not chain of responsibility that connects George Bush to any Iraqi that has died violently since then. Because Saddam didn't fill out the right paperwork when he completely dismantled his WMD program, neither the decision to start this war, nor the conditions it has created in Iraq, are the fault of George Bush, Dick Cheney, or any American.

Except Bill Clinton who, need I remind you, ordered the launch of cruise missiles at Bin Laden camps, and had orgasms.

[Hakluyt]

Akira McKenzie,

Ronald Reagan didn't spend a day in active combat or the military for that matter.

[Jeff P.]

Excuse me.
There's an American University of Dubai?
This explains why they hate us.
Carry on.

[Akira MacKenzie]

Ronald Reagan didn't spend a day in active combat or the military for that matter.

No... but he played one in his movies, so them, that counts.

[Akira MacKenzie]

Edit: ...so to them...

[Hakluyt]

Jeff P.,

Dubai is a sweet place. You should visit.

[joe]

I'd say that a guy who spent several tours in Vietnam as a Marine, retired as a colonel, and has served several terms in the House knows a thing or two about military mistakes.

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/weird_news/13192257.htm

I like the spoiled bitch from Texas who calls him a "defeatist" near the end.

[Viking Moose]

joe:

i'm lost on where you're going. it seems as though you're blanket covering libertarians with neocons.

for those who happened to be against iraq, yugoslavia, somalia, disapproved of ruby ridge first, thought the iraq policy was terrible from august 1990, etc. are getting thrown under the bus by your comments. is it okay to be disgusted by Clinton's personal behavior and suspicious of his foreign policy gestures? is it okay to acknowledge that his tenure was one of the most prosperous in modern times? is it okay to be disgusted by Al Gore and terribly disappointed by him? is it okay to wonder why these militia types all of a sudden are fer kickin' towel head ass and love PATRIOT?

suggesting that a blow job is somehow worse than telling stories to go to war is repeating neocon talking points, not libertarian ones.

big power advocates who claim "libertarian" are about as silly as claims #1-#69 by mona to cancel her subscription!

clinton did make it us policy to unhinge saddam, but he didn't listen to the feb 1998 memo. which was in his favor. and firing cruise missles? let's roll our eyes in tandem to that one 🙂

daddy bush started us down this fucking idiotic road. hell - i remember an article in may of 1999 in am. spectator or nro or one of those now pro war tomes suggesting that the us lift sanctions and withdraw. is it wrong to point out that both sides have had similar contradictions when it's the other team in power?

and as for all of those accusations that are accepted by the one side as true, there are tons of leftie sites (bushbodycount.com, i believe) that point out just as many holes in the bush family.

in short, we've gone from okay to terrible.

the son makes the daddy seem like a good limited govt type. or like a good prez. or something.

but writing that "libertoids" are somehow 1) for the war 2) for torture 3) parrots of neocon talking points is as silly as some of the neocon claims against you.

in short, i'd throw down the "troll" card for that.

and a huge "fuck you" to the asshole who tried the gradeschool level threat about telling your boss. apparently that little twaddlenock has never worked a real job. but a huge "double dumb ass on you" to that jerkoff.

or are you lumping Hak, Rick Barton, Fyodor, Warren, me, Thoreau, etc. in that camp, too?

The increased neocon tone of your posts has been some concern - i usually really enjoy your posting, but why is there so much hostility now? why do you insist on claiming that this is a single track forum? there's tons of disagreement all over the place. and often times, I feel that throwing out liberal talking points doesn't change the debate. often times, a different pov is welcome, but why the broad brush statements of late?

the ID = global warming connection is another trollish attempt. when someone else exactly claimed that we cannot wait for better understanding, but we have to do something. that sounds like a GW= iraq, if we play analogies like that. which i don't think we should. but why troll like that? that really bothered me. it's not your style of argumentation - remember all the articles you posted to when the ramp up to war was happening? you furthered the debate there. please keep that stuff up. it's appreciated.

I don't intend or want to flame or insult you here. I'm just a little confused about this apparent change in tone recently.

I hope all is well with you, and i wish you continued success in your new position.

respectfully,
V Moose.

[Jennifer]

That was quite an article you linked to, Joe.

[Murtha's] voice cracked and tears filled his eyes as he related several stories of visiting wounded troops, including one who was blinded and lost both his hands but had been denied a Purple Heart because friendly fire caused his injuries. "I met with the commandant. I said, 'If you don't give him a Purple Heart, I'll give him one of mine.' And they gave him a Purple Heart," said Murtha, who has two.

But since Murtha is opposed to the Iraq War, we can reasonably assume he didn't deserve his purple hearts, right? Just like Kerry didn't. And believing anything other than "The United States can and will do whatever it wants, and always be a success" makes one a defeatist with treasonous overtones.

[Hakluyt]

Viking Moose,

I'm in the "don't care, I can't do squat about this anyway" category of libertarians. 🙂

[Jennifer]

Viking Moose--
I'm not trying to argue that Clinton was some sort of mistake-free demigod or anything; it's just two things that bug me: one, conservatives who spend FAR too much time harping on Clinton's sex life, which makes me suspect said conservatives are lacking a decent sex life of their own (self-inflicted orgasms don't count); and two, conservatives who respond to every criticism of Bush with "Oh, yeah? Well Clinton blah blah blah."

Guys: the Clinton presidency has been over for nearly six years. At what point does the current president start taking the blame for things that go wrong in this country?

[greg wirth]

Clinton did not invade Iraq. George W. Bush did. This will be in the history books.

[Jennifer]

Clinton did not invade Iraq. George W. Bush did. This will be in the history books.

If I were a Bush supporter I'd make a crude comment about you and your stupid "reality-based" worldview.

[Jennifer]

Think about that last post of mine! Seriously, guys: a man who fucks like a bunny on Spanish fly doesn't scare me, but a man who uses "reality-based" as an insult sure the hell does.

[M1EK]

"when someone else exactly claimed that we cannot wait for better understanding, but we have to do something. that sounds like a GW= iraq,"

They sound like each other, but not like you intended.

Those who say we have little understanding that GW is happening and is primarily man-made are misrepresenting the actual state of the science, which is pretty damn good. If you talk to CLIMATOLOGISTS, the consensus is there.

Those who said that we couldn't wait to invade Iraq were misrepresenting the actual state of the intelligence, which was pretty damn bad. If you talk to INTELLIGENCE ANAYLSTS, the consensus was NOT THERE.

HTH.

[Jennifer]

M1EK--

If we keep the thread focused on sex-talk, we're far less likely to degenerate into one of those threads where nobody does anything except insult each other.

It's sad when a bunch of sex jokes constitutes "the high road," but this is a libertarian board, after all.

[The wed RINO]

Orgasm... makes me happy.

This is the thread I want to make it to 500.

[Jennifer]

You know, if Clinton can still be held responsible for things that go wrong nearly six years into the George W. Bush presidency, does that mean that the first President George Bush can be held responsible for things that went wrong in America between the years 1993-1999? Or does Reagan also bear some responsibility?

[Hakluyt]

I have a friend who is a climatologist at Oregon State. He states that the notion that there is any consensus on the level of human involvement, on what the future holds, etc. is hogwash. OSU is a leading school in this field.

[Jennifer]

Wed Rino--

I'm just happy I got to use the phrase "fucks like a bunny on Spanish fly" somewhere.

When I am, as a joke, talking with an Overdone Southern Accent, I sound really cute when Ah say "fuck lahk a buhn-nee." I'm not trying to brag or anything; it's just an objective statement.

Ah doan cair if a mahn fucks lahk a buhn-nee ahn Spanish flah. . . .

[Akira MacKenzie]

When I am, as a joke, talking with an Overdone Southern Accent...

You know, I get the feeling that with the strategic placement of words like "sugar" and "honey," Jennifer speaking in a "Overdone Southern Accent" is really hot. 😉

[doubled]

"That's why so many Clinton-haters get themselves all worked up about sex-things without even mentioning anything about actual foreign or domestic policy--because it's the orgasms that piss them off the most." I could care less who he gets to wash his rod . Much like you could care less that Paula Jones' sexual harrassment suit went nowhere because Clinton was able to obfuscate about his sexual prowess.If a Republican had been accused of such behavior they would be run out washington on a rail . Don't believe me? How about Jack Ryan , potential rupublican canidate for Illinois Governor , he was railed in the press for just trying to get his WIFE to a sex club.

[Jennifer]

Why else would I bother doing it, Akira?

[Jennifer]

If a Republican had been accused of such behavior they would be run out washington on a rail .

Yes, and George Bush has been able to get away with things for which Clinton would have been crucified. So what? My point isn't that Clinton was Mr. Perfecto--it's that too many people think "Clinton did something bad" is an acceptable rebuttal to "George Bush is currently doing something bad." No, it isn't.

Furthermore, I think it odd that when conservatives do criticize Clinton they generally ignore things that actually fucking matter nowadays--like Clinton's craven sucking up to China, which will come back to bite us in the ass later--no, no, it's always something to do with Clinton's getting his dick wet. Every fucking time. The folks doth protest the sex stuff too much, methinks.

I don't think even Monica and Hillary still give much of a damn anymore.

[downstater]

doubled,

I believe a lot of the pressure on Ryan to drop out came from his own party... and he wasn't running for governor.

[Akira MacKenzie]

Why else would I bother doing it, Akira?

Errrr... ummmmm... well, that is... ummmm...

I'll be in my bunk.

[Lowdog]

Yes, sultry southern accents are quite hot. I think I mentioned this earlier.

So please stop doing it, Jennifer!!!! I'm at work. 🙂

[Anonymous]

Hakluyt at November 17, 2005 01:19 PM

Your friend is obviously a shill for the oil companies.

[joe]

Viking Moose, I think you're taking my quip to Jennifer waaaayyyyyyyy too seriously. All I meant is that libertarian Iraq hawks pick other silly talking points to bash Clinton than pot and blowjobs. Easy there big fella.

And I stand by my observation that the intellectual dodges this site decries by the IDers on on display in almost all of its Global Warming denial articles.

[Jennifer]

Lowdog--

Like all true Southern women, I also know how to do the Cute Crying--no smudged eyemakeup, no runny noses or red eyes--just one or two diamond-like tears in just the right strategic location to make a red-blooded man drop whatever he's doing and come runnin' to help. Don't believe the Tammy Faye hype.

[Jennifer]

Oh, and I want to repeat my one serious point so it doesn't get lost in all this other stuff:

My point isn't that Clinton was Mr. Perfecto--it's that too many people think "Clinton did something bad" is an acceptable rebuttal to "George Bush is currently doing something bad." No, it isn't. Furthermore, I think it odd that when conservatives do criticize Clinton they generally ignore things that actually fucking matter nowadays--like Clinton's craven sucking up to China, which will come back to bite us in the ass later--no, no, it's always something to do with Clinton's getting his dick wet. Every fucking time. The folks doth protest the sex stuff too much, methinks.

[joe]

I never bit on the Southern Gal thing, even when surrounded by them at college.

At the time, I thought it made them not like me. With hindsight, I realize that I could have been getting a lot more than I managed to get when I was in college.

[Jennifer]

Youth is wasted on the young, Joe.

[Akira MacKenzie]

I've found that besides Southern accents and French (my ex-girlfriend was fluent), Japanesse can sound very sexy under the right circumstances.

[Jennifer]

Non, non, Akira! Zee accent French, it was ruined forevaire by zee Tunes-looney Skonk-Rapeest, n'est-ce pas?

At least according to some weird radical-feminist pamphlet someone gave me in college.

[Lowdog]

Jennifer - I'm sure you do. Actually, I'm sure there's quite a bit you can do. 😉

Akira - no doubt. Spanish (my ex was Spanish) can also be quite alluring. Ohhh, si! *shiver*

[Eric the .5b]

abortion-free Domino's pizza

And you thought anchovies were an unpopular topping...

[saw-whet]

It's ironic that cockney is a real dick-shrinker of an accent.

[doubled]

downstater said : I believe a lot of the pressure on Ryan to drop out came from his own party... and he wasn't running for governor.

: You are correct . it was senator that he was running for . Against Barack Obama , he had no chance. You are also correct that much of the pressure to quit came from his own party. Unlike in N.J. when the Democrat Senator with campaign finance 'issues' stayed on the ballot until a week before the election , then tried to get an alternative on the ballot.

[Akira MacKenzie]

It's ironic that cockney is a real dick-shrinker of an accent.

That explains Henry Higgin's attitude in Pygmalion/My Fair Lady.

[Jennifer]

Unlike in N.J. when the Democrat Senator with campaign finance 'issues' stayed on the ballot until a week before the election , then tried to get an alternative on the ballot.

We get your point, Doubled. Many Democrats are scumbags. So are many Republicans. Greens suck too. This all has no bearing on the Iraq War and whether or not we should continue it.

[Eric the .5b]

when conservatives do criticize Clinton they generally ignore things that actually fucking matter nowadays--...no, no, it's always something to do with Clinton's getting his dick wet.

They're still a bit traumatized. The guy perjured himself in testimony while being sued under a law he signed (and that many Republicans opposed)...and the Dem spinmeisters turned that into "they're obsessed with sex! SEX!" and mocking of the idea that there's anything objectionable about lying about sex...under oath, in court, in the course of a lawsuit enabled by a law the guy signed. It got to the point where Gloria Steinem chipped in and straight-facedly claimed that even when he pulled his pants down in front of a female subordinate who wasn't interested, he wasn't sexually harassing her.

And a lot of people went for this.

It gave a lot of conservatives an angry twitch about the guy, to the point where they really think of this matter first, instead of all the reasons they hated him before that point.

[Jennifer]

Unlike in N.J. when the Democrat Senator with campaign finance 'issues' stayed on the ballot until a week before the election , then tried to get an alternative on the ballot.

We get your point, Doubled. Many Democrats are scumbags. So are many Republicans. Greens suck too. This all has no bearing on the Iraq War and whether or not we should continue it.

[Shem]

Is there any accent that can't be made to sound alluring? Maybe Jersey, but I maintain that's the exception that proves the rule.

[Jennifer]

Shem--

Lawn Guyland. Brooklyn. The Cletus part of the South.

[Viking Moose]

oooooh.

(blush) joe.... whoops.
(more blush. scuffs foot)

serves me right for posting while procrastinating 🙂

and i stand by my wondering whether pro war rhetoric is the same as GW chicken littling. so there 🙂

(pours each of us a generous-pour shot of Wild Turkey Rare Breed). CHEERS! 🙂

(and i stand by my skepticism by sources who appear to use the pro and contra GW arguments as a proxy for other political agendae. to wit: i'm against the iraq war, since i felt the reasons were insufficient. but that doesn't mean that i blanket accept anti war statements. such is my stance on GW, too.)

[Ken Shultz]

Like all true Southern women, I also know how to do the Cute Crying--no smudged eyemakeup, no runny noses or red eyes--just one or two diamond-like tears in just the right strategic location to make a red-blooded man drop whatever he's doing and come runnin' to help.

I fall for that one every time. Even when I was back home fallin' for it, I knew I was fallin' for it. ...I think I liked fallin' for it.

Youth is wasted on the young, Joe.

I didn't waste a drop! ...Except for those long years I spent with whatzername.

[linguist]

God, I can't believe I'm getting into this, but:

the President has experienced orgasms. Yes--orgasms! Not even inflicted by his wife, either!

Is there no way in which we can judge this person as being unable to keep his promises, period? He broke promises to his wife (and let's face it, we all knew about that way before we elected him). And guess what, he broke some other "little" oaths, too.

Philanderer president: no big deal. Liar/promise breaker president: big deal. Can't reasonable people criticize him on those terms, then?

[Ruthless]

Slick Willie was like this thread: sex and politics intertwined.

Politically, Slick played foreign affairs like he did his supporters: like a butterfly. (Never stinging like a bee.)

Dubya is very different. He's doing the Lord's work, regardless of how many he has to kill.

[Jennifer]

Liar/promise breaker president: big deal. Can't reasonable people criticize him on those terms, then?

Fine, but I still look at the quality of lies: liying about fucking a woman versus lying about intelligence which leads to a fucking war? I feel about Clinton the way I feel about Martha Stewart: yes, they did stuff that was wrong but it was of so little consequence for anyone beyond the actual players I just don't fucking care. Not compared to what else has been going on since this administration came to office.

[linguist]

It's just a difference of philosophy then, Jennifer. I've always been more the black & white type, thinking that someone who lies about something small probably lies about bigger things too.

Some people find that perspective unreasonable. (shrugg)

Anyway, all politicians lie so I shouldn't even try to analyze it.

Silly story: I just gave a signed copy of Monica's Story to charity. I met her in London on a lark. Never read the book. Now it's sitting in a Brown Elephant in the city's 2nd gayest zip code. I wonder how long it will moulder there?! LOL

[Heywood Jablome]

I would have respected Clinton more if he had inhaled. And I firmly believe he should have given Monica a good boning (she has needs too!).
The Islamoterrorists hit the World Trade towers because they were phallic symbols. Bush over-uses the military to compensate for his wimpiness (and the fact that his name rhymes with "cunt").

Just a few random thoughts to stir up this thread.

[jw]

We have an ex-president whose knickname (Slick Willie) is a euphemism for the male genitalia and a sitting president whose actual name is a euphemism for the female genitalia. Hmm,...interesting.

[linguist]

Oh. My. God.

I never until this moment realized that's what people meant by Slick Willie. I thought it was a reference to him being teflon (teflonic?).

I'm so embarrassed for myself! Go ahead, laugh.

[The wed RINO]

I've always been more the black & white type, thinking that someone who lies about something small probably lies about bigger things too.

That's a tough outlook. My experience has been that everyone lies, parses, and misleads. Whether or not I dislike them for it usually has something to do with how I perceive them prior to catching them on it.

[Isaac Bartram]

I thought it was a reference to him being teflon (teflonic?).

I'm pretty sure that you were right.

The nickname Slick Willie was coined by Paul Greenberg an editor for the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette way back when Bill was starting his career.

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/paulgreenberg/2004/06/25/12154.html

I think that jw was referring to the coincidences involved here.

[Jennifer]

It's just a difference of philosophy then, Jennifer. I've always been more the black & white type, thinking that someone who lies about something small probably lies about bigger things too.

Martin Luther King Jr. was a poonhound, too, and apparently a bit of a jerk to the women with whom he cheated on his wife with. So maybe the guy was a crummy husband and boyfriend. I don't care, and in light of what he was doing it doesn't matter. Fact is, if chastity and fidelity to one's wife become considered the most important virtues for our Presidents and other leaders. . .well, the "Best Leaders" list will have to be drastically revised.

[jw]

Linguist:

Yes, your're right. The name Slick Willie DID refer to Clinton as being "teflonic"...at least until the Monica thing happened. But I think it soon came to mean both. Actually, I just like to refer to him as "Cigar Bill" or "Seegar Bill".

[Jennifer]

Brilliant, Stevo! But you're not one of the people I see griping about Clinton so very, very much.

I just don't give a damn what happened 'twixt him and Monica.

[Stevo Darkly]

But you're not one of the people I see griping about Clinton so very, very much.

Thanks, Jennifer! Actually, I hate his guts, but I generally stopped griping about Clinton circa A.D. 2000 or so. Then I got distracted by other things. I have only a limited supply of active hatred, so I must ration it carefully.

[Eric the .5b]

liying about fucking a woman versus lying about intelligence which leads to a fucking war?

What about when he starts taking half-assed potshots at terrorists in order to try to distract the public when the truth comes out? But at least that couldn't have done any harm. Who was that guy he tried to bomb in Afghanistan, again?

[a Vestal Virgin]

"In fact, I didn't have to pester anyone else at all. I did it the libertarian way."

It was a copout, Stevo.
The powers of persuasion are what we are about here, not pestering.

(The most dramatic way to persuade is by tending the flame.... wait! That's what you were doing, wasn't it? But you know what I mean.)

[Jennifer]

Eric-

Yeah, Clinton was a sleaze about that. What does that have to do with the current situation in Iraq, though?

[joe]

Eric's theory - that it was the Lewinsky scandal that drove the right around the bend - would be great, were it not for the fact that Clinton was accused of being a Soviet spy during the election campaign; of having an aide murdered and dumped in a park; of running cocaine into the country while governor; of having state police score groupies for him; of molesting his own daughter; and of marrying his wife as a calculated political ploy BEFORE anyone had ever heard of Monica Lewinsky.

[joe]

The plans to hit Bin Laden in Afghanistan had been in place for a long time, and were awaiting just the intelligence about his location. It came shortly after the stained dress story broke. What was he supposed to do, not try to kill OBL because of how it looked?

[Les]

joe,

I had read that Clinton decided to bomb Afghanistan and Sudan against the advice of most of his military advisors because it was such a senseless and possibly illegal plan. I must find a link.

[kwais]

This thread is probably dead.
But all those things joe mentioned Clinton being accused or are no more likely to be untrue than the "Bush lied to get us into war".

Stevo Darkly
I am with you. I don't give a fuck about Bill boning a 100 interns. My contention with him is not about sex and it never was. It was about being a bad president. It was about signing laws for other people to follow but not him.

Iraqis maybe getting killed in this war, but they are getting democracy out of it. There is a larger plan for the better. Maybe wrong or maybe right. But when Clinton caused the death of scores of Iraq children it was for political expediency.

There is more there is more and there is more (madeline notsobright ect ect ect) and none of it is about getting blow jobs. I love to get blow jobs, I would not fault another man for the same. I lose a little respect when they are married, unless they are in an open marriage, as Clinton may well be.

[kwais]

So my point being
LBJ apparently being the worst president ever, is followed closely by Clinton.

However Clinton is also the biggest scumbag ever.

I mean Nixon gets a lot of credit for that and he was indeed a scumbag despite his apologists. But he wasn't close to Clinton. One big indicator is that Nixon never raped anyone. You can't be that great a guy and be a rapist IMO.

And all the feminazis squirmed to support him because he supports efforts to kill unborn babies.

I say all this as someone who generally is suspicios of rape charges. I was suspicios of Mike Tysons accuser, of Kobe Bryants accuser. But not of that Republican from Oregon, and not of Bill Clintons accuser. Because having listened to the story, they seem to be telling the truth.

YOU hear Juanita Broderic's story and tell me why you think she is lying. Joe, Jennifer?

[Jennifer]

Kwais--
I say this with all respect: SO WHAT???

Let me repeat myself: I am NOT syaing Clinton was some fucking saint! I'm saying that when discussing things going wrong NOW, I am SICK of hearing Clinton-bashing in lieu of debate! I am SICK of conversations like this one:

ME: Maybe this Iraq War was a bad idea.

TIGHTY-RIGHTY: Oh, yeah! Well, Clinton was a fucking rapist!

ME: I don't like the way the TSA is trampling our civil liberties.

TIGHTY-RIGHTY: Oh, yeah? Well, inhale to the chief motherfucking draft-dodger!

ME: This PATRIOT Act scares the shit out of me.

TIGHTY-RIGHTY: Oh, yeah? What's REALLY scary is the way Hillary killed Vince Foster!

ME: Our country is losing respect throughout the world, ever since our new President came to power, and Jesus that deficit is huge!

TIGHTY-RIGHTY: Yeah, but at least the new President's interns don't have comestains on their dresses!

[Hayward Jablowme]

Jennifer-

I agree with you in principle that the past should not be the scapegoat for todays issues. However, those things which were or weren't done in the past affects us all now.

If only Clinton had a hard on for Steroids in baseball like he does for loose women we wouldn't be having to concern outselves with it now. A stiffy for Social Security reform would have been nice instead of a stiffy that was so iffy he had to debate the definition of the word "IS" (personally I think after that instance he should have been taken out back and shot but thats just me)

Was he a great president? I know he likes to think he was but then most liars have this way of convincing themselves what they say is true.

I voted for him the 1st time but I was young and naive and he talked a good game. Thats all he did was talk though and still thats all he does. Fly over here blow some wind make some stink then its off to the next location that requires a good dusting of patented Clinton BS.

"TIGHTY-RIGHTY: Oh, yeah? What's REALLY scary is the way Hillary killed Vince Foster!"

Everyone knows Vince Foster killed himself....... then took his own dead body to the park for someone else to find. And remember Jen nothing happens fast with politicians or governments.(unless its steroids in baseball) After all it did take Hillary 2 years to find a few boxes or papers in her bedroom!

Its nice the politicians didn't hesitate to question the past when it came to Social Security and did something. Oh wait they haven't done crap on SS have they. Thats ok at least there no more steroids in baseball.

[Jennifer]

Hayward--

What the fuck does ANY of that have to do with the Iraq War?

[Hayward Jablowme]

Jen- Exactly it doesn't have anything to do with the war. Except that Clinton was getting serviced while he was supposed to be in service to all of us so now he is open for blame. Both parties play this redirect the blame game all the time.

If Clinton doesn't want people recalling all his "issues" maybe he should shut the hell up. What exactly is it you think we should do about Iraq and terrorism in general anyway? You say you want a debate but go on about people using Slick Willie the sperm whale as an excuse.

Maybe I missed it but did you actually put forth any type of idea or plan of action we should be pursuing versus what we are doing now? All you can say is he was better than Bush etc etc.

I sense your liberal democrat tendencies in that you are the one on the attack and going back to compare the past to the present. All the while never actually getting around to telling us what the hell it is you would do. Typical liberal thing to do. I can almost hear your answer to any real question of what to do... WELL BUSH LIED!! thats why your in the Clinton got blown and bush lied debate to begin with. They all fucking lie like rugs clinton being a lawwyer was just very smooth with it. But again I ask what would you do differently?

If you notice the dem pols never give those types of details because they haven't a damn clue all they know is BUSH LIED and damnit we want our seats back gimme control and we will figure it ourt then 😉 no really I promise this time!

get fucking real.

Now what was your answer to all our problems again?

[Jennifer]

I sense your liberal democrat tendencies in that you are the one on the attack and going back to compare the past to the present.

I'm not a Democrat, sweetie, and you should stop assuming that only a Dem could find fault with the current administration, or think Clinton's was better than this one.

And no, I don't know how to get out of this clusterfuck in Iraq, but coming up with a solution isn't MY responsibility--it's the responsibility of the administration who got us there in the first place.

Are you SERIOUSLY saying that nobody should point out a problem unless they know how to solve it?