In Mammon We Trust
Michael Newdow, whom you may recall from the Pledge of Allegiance bruhaha, has launched a new Establishment Clause crusade: To get "In God We Trust" taken off U.S. currency. Now, this is pretty clearly counterproductive: It's a trivial question whether the motto remains there or not, it's all but politically impossible that the courts would actually rule in Newdow's favor (the Supreme Court dodged having to rule on the merits of the Pledge by instead ruling that Newdow lacked standing to raise the challenge), and stuff like this never fails to touch off nauseous waves of pious rhetoric from politicians—not to mention mobilizing the constituents who actually believe it to agitate for still worse policies.
Still, if it weren't for those political considerations, he'd have a decent case. Here as in so many other Establishment Clause wrangles, the line is that it's not meant to be an endorsement of religion, but only a sort of recognition of historical traditions. Except that's not at all the impression you get from the Treasury Department's own account of the motto's origin. As they tell it, back in 1861, the secretary of the treasury, prompted by letters insisting that he do something to "relieve us from the ignominy of heathenism," commanded the U.S. Mint that "The trust of our people in God should be declared on our national coins," a change Congress later approved. Likely the Court will follow the logic of its recent 10 Commandments rulings and find that, whether initially placed there for a religious purpose or not, the long span of time between 1861 and the present has secularized the motto—turned it into a historical statement, even if it wasn't initially. That doesn't strike me as a terribly compelling principle in itself, but it's not a bad pragmatic rule, in that it may, at least, serve to avoid messy, emotional battles over trivial yet hoary traditions without requiring the dilution of the Establishment Clause for the purposes of new legislation.
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As if there aren't eight million more important things to launch a crusade against.
I just find it funny that so many Ten Commandments markers in public places are there because of they were promotional items sent out to promote "The Ten Commandments." 🙂
Speaking as an atheist: Would I like to see the phrase "In God We Trust" stricken from our currency? Sure. However, right now, we've got IDiots on Kansas Board of Education, a bible-beater in the Oval Office, fundies in the FDA...
I think Michael Newdow needs to learn to prioritize a little. We've got bigger things to worry about. We can deal with the small-fry issues later.
It's amazing how much heat stuff like this generates compared to stuff like habeas corpus, which isn't that hard to understand and a bit more important.
You know what I'm looking forward to? The next two months of screeching about how they're taking away Christmas and replacing it with "Happy Holidaze". They're already pumping it hard on Fox. I think the big haired albino freak "wrote" one of those instaconservabooks about it.
So if I have an issue with the direction the country is going, I should fire of a letter to the Treasury Secretary? Hmm, I hadn't thought of that.
"I just find it funny that so many Ten Commandments markers in public places are there because of they were promotional items sent out to promote "The Ten Commandments." :)"
Can you tell me why you think it funny? This time without a smiley emoticon.
"In God We Trust" wasn't actually a national motto until 1956, as a statement against godless heathenism. I'd thought it was a simple replacement, but apparently "E Pluribus Unum" is still a national motto as well. I always preferred the latter. "Annuit Coeptis" on the national seal means "He has favored our undertakings," where "he" presumably refers to the eye of Providence on top of the Pyramid. I never felt "In God We Trust" on money compelled my belief in any way. I'm waiting for someone to use Jesus's "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and unto God the things that are God's" as an excuse not to pay taxes on religious grounds.
I'm opposed "under God" being used in the Pledge when there's an element of coercion involved. It also is against the intentions of the man who wrote the Pledge to begin with.
Legally putting "So help me god" at the end of an oath to any office strikes me as a blatant violation of the Constitution.
In truth I couldn't care less. I am not the least bit bothered or threatened by anyone else's faith or by a few words printed on currency.
I find Newdow and his evangelical god-fearing atheism to be tiresome and annoying.
Newdow is an idiot.
....and the horse he came to town on.
saw-whet,
Well, its ironic that Hollywood, you know, that place social conservatives like to spit venom at, would be the provider of so many of these objects that are now so dear to social conservatives.
...secularized the motto...turned it into a historical statement, even if it wasn't initially.
I wish the ACLU would take this lesson to heart as well. I'm an atheist, but I understand that religion played a non-trivial role in the settlement of Los Angeles, and certainly don't have a problem with a small cross on the city seal. And Las Cruces, NM? It's Las-freakin-Cruces, for crying out loud!
As a few have already mentioned, aren't there bigger fish to fry?
He can always stop using cash. There's no acknowledgement of a deity on a visa card, is there?
He can always stop using cash. There's no acknowledgement of a deity on a visa card, is there?
sage,
For trivial things there's a deity. For everything else, there's Mastercard. (the one true savior)
In truth I couldn't care less. I am not the least bit bothered or threatened by anyone else's faith or by a few words printed on currency.
You obviously didn't read the First Amendment, which makes it pretty clear that our government isn't supposed to be stumping for faith, whether openly or covertly on our money.
However, as I said, we can get to that later.
I find Newdow and his evangelical god-fearing atheism to be tiresome and annoying.
And I find Robertson, Fawell, Roberts, das Panzer Pope, and their religious babble tiresome, annoying, and given make-up of the current administration, dangerous. What's your point?
sage-
Freaking hilarious!
Yellow legal pad: $1.98.
Lawyer's fees: $200/hour.
Raising a ruckus that will give the evangelicals the red meat that they crave? Priceless.
For frivolous lawsuits there's cash. For everything else, there's Mastercard.
I think this kind of crusade only feeds the image of victimhood of the religious victimhood-mongers. I say let 'em have their stupid little sayings on coins. As for the long span of time between 1861 and the present has secularized the motto?turned it into a historical statement, even if it wasn't initially, maybe another way of saying that is that no one really notices or cares about it!
saw-whet,
Funny, as in ironic. Not funny, as in "ha ha."
"And Las Cruces, NM? It's Las-freakin-Cruces, for crying out loud!"
Not to mention Des Moines. Papism enshrined in the name of one of our greatest metropli! Thank goodness we still have the Grand Tetons to console ourselves with. America - the country with the biggest tits in the world.
So what happened in 1861 that led the God-fearing citizens of our country to clamor for protection against the dreaded ignominy of hedonism?
Sometimes I think that Newdow is a secretly a fundie stooge. He conveniently pops up to bring cases that can be used to play the "ACLU, liberals are persecuting Christians" card, and rally the Jesus-fearing base.
David-
Newdow may or may not be genuine. But if he didn't exist, the religious right would have to invent him.
Hmm, isn't that what some people say about God? Which would mean that maybe Newdow is actually God! Well, if God wants His name off of the currency, far be it from me to say otherwise.
🙂
Thoreau,
You might be onto something. Drop the vowels, convert the NWDW in Hebrew, and Read upside down it reads YHWH!
"Newdow is an idiot.
....and the horse he came to town on."
I heard Newdow debating Hannity on WABC a year or two ago, and thought that, for the most part, Newdow cleaned his clock. Then, after Newdow was off the line, Hannity was gloating about how he had destroyed him. I guess it all depends on who you agree with. It was one of those disconnects where you can't believe it was the same interview you're talking about.
I mostly agree with Newdow, but also agree his "issues" are a big waste of time. Just like the ACLU's fixation with the baby Jesus camping out on the municipal lawn.
if God wants His name off of the currency
Which would make perfect sense according to the Bible, which references the fit that Jesus threw when people were using the temples as bazaars and places of commerce. It seems that engraving His Name on currency would be logically unacceptable also then, right?
It seems that engraving His Name on currency would be logically unacceptable also then, right?
Oh wait, I said the magic "l" word....that doesn't apply when discussing religion. I forgot.
Speaking as a fellow atheist, I think Michael Newdow hasn't done nearly enough to reinforce obnoxious militant stereotypes about us--he also needs to campaign against the law making Christmas a holiday, too.
And then make cities like Christiana, Delaware, and Corpus Christi, Texas, change their names.
Be afraid of us atheists, you puny Christian fools. Be very afraid.
I produced a batch of tiny, tiny stickers with the word "ED" in green ink and stuck them over GOD on the backside of a batch of one-dollar bills. Trust me.
If you're so super-principled about your atheism that you really have problems about "In God We Trust" on the money, you can interpret it by saying that this proves the frailty of our non-gold-standard money; it's inherently worthless, so we have to, metaphorically speaking, "trust in God" that we don't wake up tomorrow and discover it is now toilet paper.
That's what's fun about symbols--you can interpret them in multiple ways.
Corpus Christi, Texas
Funny story about this city....one of my friend's siblings worked with a guy down South who apparently got fed up with his job in Austin (or wherever he was working at the time), and decided to leave town. One day he was bitching about his job and outburst, "That's it! I'm quitting and moving to Corpus Crispy".
I hope I'm not the only person who thinks that his mistake was f-in hilarious.
I find Newdow and his evangelical god-fearing atheism to be tiresome and annoying.
..
And I find Robertson, Fawell, Roberts, das Panzer Pope, and their religious babble tiresome, annoying, and given make-up of the current administration, dangerous. What's your point?
I agree w/ both of you 100%.
You obviously didn't read the First Amendment, which makes it pretty clear that our government isn't supposed to be stumping for faith, whether openly or covertly on our money.
Really? Where?
I think even if you don't buy the "this has become a part of our history" argument, it's STILL not at all clear that the words are barred by the language of the first amendment.
Personally, though, I think our currency ought to be sponsored to save on production costs: "In Exxon-Mobile We Trust" could be printed on every bill printed and coin minted.
That's what's fun about symbols--you can interpret them in multiple ways.
Speak it, Sister!!!
I put my trust in Tyler Durden. 🙂
theOneState-
Hmm, oil-sponsored currency could be a step toward the libertarian holy grail (well, holy grail to some, anyway) of commodity-backed money.
Every dollar is a Petrodollar!
Somebody needs to explain to Newdow the difference between being right about the issue vs. being smart about tactics.
Sure, Robertson, Falwell, and Roberts are tiresome too. The difference is that they aren't tying up the court systems with their personal hobbyhorses. (I'm an agnostic who believes that government should stay strictly out of religion in any way, but Newdow falls firmly in the "don't you have anything better to do with your time" realm.
what's wrong with newdow pointing out such a blantant violation of the first amendment? yes, there may be more pertinent problems, but that doesn't make his claim any less valid. the fact that people don't just agree with him is indicative of a greater problem.
but then again, who expects rationality from a culture that, at large, believes in a virgin birth?
JD,
The difference is that they aren't tying up the court systems with their personal hobbyhorses.
Are you sure about that?
If it was placed on our currency by an act of Congress, then it should be taken off as the result of an act of Congress, not by the courts.
We should start our own fight club.
Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.
Somebody needs to explain to Newdow the difference between being right about the issue vs. being smart about tactics.
I've often thought the same thing about same-sex marriage proponents. You know, nothing will give the FMA momentum like lawsuits. [/thread-jack]
One day he was bitching about his job and outburst, "That's it! I'm quitting and moving to Corpus Crispy".
No, smacky, you are not the only one who finds it hilarious. Because, frankly, Corpus is rather toasty most of the time. And I question the sanity of anybody who'd move from Austin to there.
what's wrong with newdow pointing out such a blantant violation of the first amendment?
Nothing, but he's a little bit ridiculous. And what makes you so confident that this represents a blatant violation of the 1st Amendment? I don't mean to start a fight over this, but I really don't see how it violates the 1st from an actual reading of the 1st. So I don't see how you can say it's blatant. There may be lots of legal history that says you're right, but from the Constitution itself, I don't see it.
We should start our own fight club.
Ok, Hak -- The first rule of Fight Club is: Don't talk about Fight Club.
Ok, next topic...
smacky,
I knew that was coming. 🙂
Hmm, oil-sponsored currency could be a step toward the libertarian holy grail (well, holy grail to some, anyway) of commodity-backed money.
True! I didn't even think about that.
I'd love to see competing currencies, too, but I just know I'd find myself in the uncomfortable position of having to accept a Che dollar w/o slapping a customer.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;..." (1st amendment)
so when congress makes a law that includes the phrase "in god we trust" on US currency, it isn't establishing that there must be a god?
Hak,
I was set up! Predictable set-ups, predictable jokes.
*sigh*
Maybe I need a change of scenery. Or a haircut.
Those who start a discussion of an issue like this with "it's a blatant" [anything] are indicative of where arguments like this tend to go. Is it wrong? Sure. Maybe? Who knows? Who cares?
But in terms of damage and injury to anyone on this planet, his money and time would be better spent elsewhere. How many meals on wheels could he support with the lawyers' time and money who will be dragged in to deal with this? Lawyers, clerks, judges, etc. Homes for hurricane victims? Domestic violence halfway house support? Do something which HELPS people, dammit!
And in terms of policy, above posters and Julian have it exactly right. Issues like this give the Right golden opportunities to kneejerk a "Christian Faith Affirmation" amendment into circulation, or something other equally scary. It will also suck a few more news cycles away from things like "I can arrest you because I say so."
May God have mercy on you atheist's souls.
"Somebody needs to explain to Newdow the difference between being right about the issue vs. being smart about tactics."
Cromulent point, but this is assuming that Newdow is out for anything else then just being an attention-whore. And I'm speaking as a devote agnostic.
On another note, if we're starting an H&R "Fight Club", I want a crack at smacky! I think I can take her. >:)
Jive Miguel--
I see your point, but on a practical level I feel about it the same way I feel toward Christmas: technically I suppose it's a violation of church and state for it to be a federal holiday, but only the most clueless would suggest that the cause of secularism in this country would be helped if atheists became known as "the people who want to take away Christmas."
Hell, Ebenezer Scrooge gave Bob Cratchit Christmas Day off with pay before his conversion!
You mean we aren't supposed to worship money?
o when congress makes a law that includes the phrase "in god we trust" on US currency, it isn't establishing that there must be a god?
'Religion' in the context of the first amendment is specifically about religious establishments, ie the Church etc. A belief system, be it God or no God isn't a criteria and therefore not a question the court is likely to answer.
If on the other hand the coins said "In Jesus we trust.", then he might have a point.
so when congress makes a law that includes the phrase "in god we trust" on US currency, it isn't establishing that there must be a god?
The fundies have been twisting logic for years to attempt to reconcile their theocratic tendencies with the Establishment Clause. The two most popular are:
1: The Establishment Clause was only meant to prevent the creation of a state religion like the Church of England. If that were so, how would writting overtly religious beliefs into law be any different than declaring a state religion?
2: The phrase "Seperation Of Church and State" doesn't appear in the Bill Of Rights. True, that phrase appeared in a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to a Bapist congregation. However, Jefferson used the phrase to describe just how the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause were supposed to work together; religion does not dictate the affairs of the state, and the state doesn't interfere with the practice of religion. Since Jefferson was the mind primarily responsible for the First Amendement, he should know what the bloody thing was supposed to mean.
On another note, if we're starting an H&R "Fight Club", I want a crack at smacky! I think I can take her. >:)
Ha, ha -- the joke's on you, Mr. Nice Guy. You'll spend all of your time preparing yourself to kick my ass, but when push comes to shove, I'll just start crying and then run away.
...at least you'll win by forfeit, if nothing else. ^_-
(BTW, missed you at Bethesda. Maybe next time.)
Why don't we just include all religious beliefs and make it "In X We Trust"? That should satisfy everyone.
"it's a blatant" [anything] are indicative of where arguments like this tend to go.
2 + 2 = 4.
it's a blatant fact that 2 + 2 = 4.
oh my, funny how something that is true can still be true after prefacing it with "it's a blantant [anything]".
But in terms of damage and injury to anyone on this planet, his money and time would be better spent elsewhere.
apparently he doesn't think so, and it's his time and money to spend.
Issues like this give the Right golden opportunities to kneejerk a "Christian Faith Affirmation" amendment into circulation, or something other equally scary.
i tend to think issues like this help draw the line between where state ends and church begins. if this country could be a little more consistent regarding the church/state issues, we probably wouldn't need to fear the Christian Faith Affirmation amendment.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;..." (1st amendment)
so when congress makes a law that includes the phrase "in god we trust" on US currency, it isn't establishing that there must be a god?
It just doesn't seem to "rise to the level of" (I hate that phrase) "establishment". I see your point, I just don't think it's self-evident. But I don't know the history.
jennifer
I see your point, but on a practical level I feel about it the same way I feel toward Christmas: technically I suppose it's a violation of church and state for it to be a federal holiday, but only the most clueless would suggest that the cause of secularism in this country would be helped if atheists became known as "the people who want to take away Christmas."
correct. the cause of secularism wouldn't be helped if atheists became known as "the people who want to take away Christmas.". but shouldn't we all (atheists, jews, muslims, hindus, etc..., and even christians themselves) say "hey, it's wrong of me to push my religious beliefs on others using the state?"
oh my, funny how something that is true can still be true after prefacing it with "it's a blantant [anything]".
jive, deciding whether or not the words "In God we Trust" on U.S. currency violates the 1st Amendment is not remotely equivalent to deciding whether or not 2+2=4.
Newdow is doing valuable work. These superstitious beliefs have already got us involved in another era of Crusades.
Why do they always want to slap the symbols and sayings of their religion up this way?
point is, let's not get upset with newdow that he's possibly right/has a legitimate concern because of fear of radical religious right retaliation.
(i'll stop posting now 😉 )
Ed gave me an interesting idea:
How about, as a protest, we start crossing off the word "GOD" from every bit of paper money that passes through our hands? As a side benefit, it'd be a cool social experiment, to see how long it took for more "godless" currency to get back to us.
Of course that experiment would be obviated by the fact that religious folks would simply write GOD back on it.
"hey, it's wrong of me to push my religious beliefs on others using the state?"
Unfortunately, most people only have a problem with others' beliefs being pushed by the state. Their own are no problem.
I have the inkling that this has more to do with Mr. Newdow's own self promotion.
It seems to me that our society does a fine job of obviating the effects of the statement on our currency by blandly ignoring the statement to begin with.
Hak-
I have been reading your posts for many moons now. I believe your 1:40 PM comment is the best paragraph you have offered on H&R (and the first one that I agree with whole-heartedly).
jf - great idea, I will join the effort.
""Issues like this give the Right golden opportunities to kneejerk a "Christian Faith Affirmation" amendment into circulation, or something other equally scary.""
"i tend to think issues like this help draw the line between where state ends and church begins. "
And which part of the idiocy after the Pledge case was decided helped you come to that conclusion? Christian conservatives hate having these little symbols go away, especially when very few people can demonstrate a harm. And GOPers will use those fears to make other policy and election gains. And Democrats will be afraid to oppose them, for fear of being painted as anti-Christian. And so it goes...
"point is, let's not get upset with newdow that he's possibly right/has a legitimate concern because of fear of radical religious right retaliation."
I am afraid I can't agree. I hesitate to blame people for chains of events that they only set in motion, not complete, but results matter--not just intentions.
I've been cutting the word god out of money, off and on, for years now. makes me feel just a bit better.
Sure. Go ahead. Cross My blessed name off of pieces of paper. It's a federal crime to deface U.S. currency, but really, I don't care..
LIGHTENING BOLT!!
Crushinator,
I may be wrong about this, but I think Hak's 1:40pm post was a recitation of one of the soliloquies from "Fight Club".
Oops, I'm not supposed to talk about it.
I think he was quoting Palahniuk.
You guys need to read Pascal's wager. What you lack is perspective. How can an atheist interpet the intent of predominatly Christian writers(the constitution)? especially when those writings were created to protect not limit belief in God. Your ego-centristic views are only convincing to each other.
Newdow's atheistic crusade may be politically doomed, but so what? Many of you seem to be so used to thinking of everything in terms of political strategy that you forget that some people just do things in life because they enjoy them. Newdow is a lawyer who knows he is right and enjoys the intellectual battle. I think his position on the phrase is obviously correct; whether his fight makes political sense is another matter.
Somewhere between ten and twenty percent of Americans (depending on the survey) do not "trust" in God, because they do not believe he exists. With this in mind, what purpose does the phrase serve on our money? Who is the "we" that trusts in God? It seems to me that the only purpose the phrase serves, the only purpose it was MEANT to serve, is to make a public statement that excludes non-believers from being "real" Americans. While the actual hardship to atheists caused by having the phrase printed on money is so small as to be non-existant, the mindset behind the phrase IS damaging (and I can't see any harm to believers - other than to their swelled sense of moral superiority - in removing the phrase).
From what I've read, Newdow was a very good advocate for his position when he was before the Supreme Court in the pledge case. While I personally wouldn't want to bother taking this new case to court, if Newdow wants to do the work then more power to him. It's worth it just to hear the tortured explanations of those on the other side about how God is not really a "religious" term.
snip, snip there, Smacky
please send the clippings to me - i'm knitting my grandmama a merkin for thanksgiving...
Newdow's atheistic crusade may be politically doomed, but so what?
He's wasting my tax dollars. Yes, it is a quarkian amount of waste, but it is still irritating. He gets my nomination for Mike and Mike's Just Shut Up award.
please send the clippings to me - i'm knitting my grandmama a merkin for thanksgiving...
Will do, Viking Moose. I'm sure that will make a nice gift for your grandmama.
When you're done with that, will you knit me an asshat for Christmas?
Clearly, the proper response is to start putting " in god we trust" on similarly inappropriate items: condoms, birth control pills (especially Plan B), abortion instrument kits, torture hoods, etc.
Jon h.-
That is brilliant! Patriotheist condoms!
Clearly, the proper response is to start putting " in god we trust" on similarly inappropriate items: condoms, birth control pills (especially Plan B), abortion instrument kits, torture hoods, etc.
Why pile on? We already use the money emblazened with "In God We Trust" to purchase those things.
Is there any irony in using currency labeled, "In God We Trust" to purchase insurance?
We trust in God. But we're in good hands with Allstate.
"He's wasting my tax dollars. Yes, it is a quarkian amount of waste, but it is still irritating. He gets my nomination for Mike and Mike's Just Shut Up award."
Putting aside the question of whether fighting an unjust government policy via the court system is a "waste" of tax dollars at all, the waste in this case (as you admit) is so small, especially as compared with the waste perpetrated by countless others in countless other aspects of government life, that I sense you perhaps share with Mr Newdow exactly the same quality that you criticize him for; the inability to put things in the proper perspective.
"That is brilliant! Patriotheist condoms!"
Thx.
Probably what would really work would be a giant float at a gay pride parade, depicting a dollar bill in the medium of squirming body-painted manflesh.
With a giant 'In God We Trust' sign, decked out in flashing rainbow LEDs.
And to be sure, pole dancers with dollar bills prominently displayed tucked in their g-strings.
If that doesn't get them to wonder if currency is the appropriate place for a religious statement, I don't know what will.
jf,
Kudos, and much easier than the tiny stickers. (Pulls cap off Sharpie and gets to work.)
The more I think about it, maybe we should send a few sharpies to Mr. Newdow. It seems like it would be therapeutic to him, as well as a much better use of his time and my money (ha!).
You guys need to read Pascal's wager
Pascal's Wager is a cynical joke.
I have an idea that should satisfy atheists, Bible-readers, realists, cynics, statists and libertarians alike. Just change the motto to read:
IN CAESAR WE TRUST
And leave it at that.
PS: OT, but this thread reminded me of an incident that happened to me when I was a kid. I was flying a kite, see. And then I made this horrible (but in retrospect, hilarious) mistake --
Oops. I forgot. The first rule of the kite flub: Never talk about the kite flub.
Never mind.
Doesn't "In God We Trust" simply refer to the currency on which it's printed? What's the big deal?
You guys need to read Pascal's wager. What you lack is perspective. How can an atheist interpet the intent of predominatly Christian writers(the constitution)?
why do you think: 1) that the writers of the constitution were "predominatly" (sic) Christians? (answer: your preacher has been misinforming (lying to) you for years
2) that we are all atheists? (thoreau isn't, I don't think)
3) that atheists are incapable of understanding the intent of Christians?
especially when those writings were created to protect not limit belief in God.
not having a state religion protects everyone's right to believe in whatever God they choose, as well as the rights of individuals not to believe in God
Your ego-centristic views are only convincing to each other.
what does centristic mean? how are our views ego-centristic? (or ego-centric, if that's what you mean). we don't care about convincing you
Comment by: Blaise at November 15, 2005 03:26 PM
I'd like to see an argument to the purported "constitutional originalists" to restore the original official national motto, "e pluribus unum". if "In God We Trust" is part of the founders' intent, then why didn't they make it the national motto well before the 1950's?
He gets my nomination for Mike and Mike's Just Shut Up award.
The VRWC would like just that.
I for one am glad that SOMEONE's out there fighting this battle, as totally unwinnable as it is. And I'm glad it's not me....
Rhywun-
Are you sure that the VRWC wants Newdow to shut up? If he didn't exist they'd have to invent him.
Additional reply to Blaise
especially when those writings were created to protect not limit belief in God.
this is a non sequitur
Rhywun--
I'm not saying Newdow is wrong; I'm saying his tactics are. Even assuming he succeeds, so what? The result is no real gain of freedom for non-believers, but the type of theist who is prone to paranoia is even more on-guard. What is accomplished?
It's like the equivalent of those feminists who think the best way to improve the plight of women is to complain because those round things in the street are called "MAN-holes" rather than "person-holes." Ridiculous.
92 comments and nobody has made a reference to John Carpenter's movie "They Live"?
Y'all are slipping.
nobody has made a reference to John Carpenter's movie "They Live"?
So... what do our coins REALLY say on them?
I have come here to chew some bubble gum and kick some ass...and I'm all out of bubble gum!"
- Rowdy Roddy Piper
Are you sure that the VRWC wants Newdow to shut up? If he didn't exist they'd have to invent him.
I think they want him to shut up, because as "crazy" as he sounds to most Americans, he causes the rest of us to think about this issue and to ask inconvenient questions like "why is God on our money?"
I'm not saying Newdow is wrong; I'm saying his tactics are.
What other tactics are there? If you believe that promoting a specific set of religions on our currency is unconstitutional, there's really only one way to go about fixing it.
smacky,
Yes it is. I should have given it a proper citation.
Rhywun--
I'm just saying there are more important things to worry about first. I was kind of with him on the Pledge of Allegiance thing, but I don;t think the Inn God We Trust issue is a big enough deal to w=be worth spending limited energy on.
Hak -
Well, Robertson once sued a congressman for libel, then dropped the case. Falwell has sued a few people, true. I can't find anything that says Oral Roberts was ever involved in any lawsuits, although I admit it's quite possible. So overall, I would still say they're a bunch of nutcases, but Newdow does still appear to have them beat, especially considering that people do win libel lawsuits (we should note that one of Falwell's lawsuits was over Virginia's church incorporation law, and the ACLU sided with him, and he won!) whereas Newdow's chances are that of a snowball in hell. Now, if you have some evidence to the contrary, why don't you speak up about it instead of being coy.
Jennifer,
Sure, I get the "there are more important things argument" - but it's irrelevant because he is only one person expending all his energy on it. Each of us focusses their energy on what is important to us.
Regarding waste of resources:
Newdow is presumably bringing the suit with his own resources or freely donated resources. The only public resources involved, aside from the court's staff and expenses (which are involved in any suit on any matter) are the resources of the government lawyers defending against the suit.
Because I happen to think that Newdow is right on the issue (but wrong on the timing) I cannot blame him for the waste of resources by those government lawyers. Rather, I blame the government for defending this case, or at least for creating a situation where he has grounds to sue.
So I won't criticize Newdow for issues of resources. Rather, I will blame him for issues of timing and backlash. One can be 100% right and still do something really stupid in the name of being right.
thoreau,
There's no time like the present 🙂
Newdow is just doing what needs to be done to get the religion out of government. He is a little nutty (if you look at his web site, he even has a CD of anti-Christian incendiary songs for sale) but he's 100% right. I don't care what his personal reasons are... he's right.
.. seems like if this were really a diverse country we could accomodate everyone on our money .. for example, if 75% of the country is Christian then we can have "In God we Trust" on 75% of our money .. and if 5% of the country is Muslim, we could have "In Allah we Trust" on 5% of our money .. and, for the atheists, we could have some of our money say, "We don't trust anyone" ..
.. Hobbit
You guys need to read Pascal's wager. What you lack is perspective. How can an atheist interpet the intent of predominatly Christian writers(the constitution)?
Yes, which is why so many of them were secular humanists, Unitarians, or otherwise non-christian.
Pascal's Wager is junk because it presums that the only possibilities are Christian God or No God. What if all you Christians get to the after-life to face an angry Ihova who's pissed you've been worshipping a false messiah for all these years? Or God is really a Muslim? (Note to Jemez Hobbit: "Allah" is Arabic for "God") What if you've got Ahura Mazda up there? Or Vishnu, or Zeus?
What if all you Christians get to the after-life to face an angry Ihova who's pissed you've been worshipping a false messiah for all these years?
Then I would submit that it's Ihova's goddamned fault for not properly getting the word out in the first place.
I mean, it's not like deities have some sort of budgetary constraint.
It's obviously illegal for the US gov't to put religious slogans on US money, and this case (if it gets going) will be another opportunity to watch the goofy gov't lawyers squirm and thrash until they invent the imaginary loopholes they need to justify yet another gov't crime.
I find this similar to second amendment issues.
I want dollar bills to say "Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn!"
"Or Vishnu, or Zeus?"
Or what if the deity is a superintelligent cosmic lemur from a different universe.
What then?
Newdow's not the one wasting government money, the ones who put unconstitutional sayings on our money to try to get their personal beliefs codified into law are the ones wasting government money, and therefore wasting our money
Hakluyt:
This is the most brilliant paragraph I've read in, well........days! I'm gonna rent "F.C." again:
"Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off."
Newdow's right, even though the timing's wrong. For this sort of thing, the timing's never right.
Newdow's right not just on libertarian grounds, but on religious grounds as well. A god worshipped on the currency is clearly a god _of_ currency. I suggest therefore putting the letter L in the offending motto, to get IN GOLD WE TRUST.