Hit & Runners' Delight

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In case the boozers at the next Hit & Run gathering start talking rebellion against the evil Reason overlords, reader Grylliade writes in to inform us that he's already formed a breakaway republic:

I've set up some a website with forums for any Hit and Run commenters to use that want to. It's meant to let people have a place where they can talk to other commenters without having to worry about staying on topic.

There have been many times that I've wondered what the Hit and Run's people take on something is, and I've not been able to ask because there's no mechanism for it. Now there is.

I don't want to step on any toes here, but I figured since Reason hasn't done this in the three years or so that Hit and Run's been up, they're not likely to. I considered lobbying for this, but then I thought, "We're all libertarians here. Why ask authority to do something when you can do it yourself?" So I did.

The site is grylliade.org. People can register on the main page, and post in the forums; I might do something with the rest of the stuff on the site, I might not. We'll see where this all goes.

Maybe either the cocktail hour or the new forum will provide answers to the riddle that puzzles me the most: What becomes of those old H&R commenters who have wondered off. Mona, Sir Real, Lefty, DJ of Raleigh, where art thou? Who/where is "Libertarian Larry," the Badnarik hater who always called me CAUVANAUGHA and never tired of telling me what "fucken idiot" I am? (Just kidding, mom! I know it was you!) At the bar or on the web, pour out some Thunderbird for the brothers that ain't here.

Update: Gary informs us that Libertarian Larry shot himself in May. RIP.

NEXT: "The voters had a temper tantrum"

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  1. Liberarian Larry offed himself earlier this year in a standoff. I kid you not. Stephen VanDyke at Hammer of Truth culd probably dig up the article for you.

  2. Who/where is “Libertarian Larry,” the Badnarik hater who always called me CAUVANAUGHA and never tired of telling me what “fucken idiot” I am?

    And he never got banned for that? Wow, it used to be like the Wild West here.

  3. And wow, what atrocious spelling on my part.

    Anyhow, I found this:
    http://www.zetetics.com/mac/blog/00000952.html

  4. If Gary is right then I feel like an ass for making a joke. I still feel bad I never got around to answering the e-mail Pavel sent me a week before he passed.

  5. I was a writer/designer for the Badnarik 2004 campaign, so we never heard the end of it from him on our forums and (of course) the blog. When the news came out about LL, Stephen VanDyke (another designer/IT man for the campaign) sent me the link to the story.

    It’s true.

  6. Yeah, those were heady days before Tim set up the H&R Stasi. I KID! I KID!

    I forgot about Lefty.

    But what of Jean Bart? Isn’t that the question that robs us all of slumber?

  7. gary,

    So, he hated Badnarik but wanted folks to vote for him anyway?

  8. I don’t think any of us on the web team were ever really sure what he wanted, to be honest.

  9. Warren,

    Jean bart is enigma wrapped inside a riddle.

  10. Good lord, gary. That was horrifying. How very sad.

  11. i’ve often wondered about the stability of some posters here. the whole pathological antiauthoritarian outlook isn’t exactly a model of mental health, after all.

    usually, i try to talk myself out of such things. maybe i shouldn’t always.

  12. Gary,

    I see. Sorry to hear about his passing.

  13. First, that is very sad about Libertarian Larry. His family has my condolences.

    Second, props to grylliade for setting up another forum for us. I’ll check it out soon.

  14. Pavel died? Holy crap! That’ll teach me to take a break from Hit ‘n’ Run. I’m sorry, I had no idea.

  15. gaius marius,

    I’d say creating faux historical epochs (what you do) is the more problematic.

  16. Jean bart is enigma wrapped inside a riddle.

    All stuffed in an asshole.

    (I keed, I keed…)

  17. Let’s call it The People’s Hit & Run…

  18. Rich Ard,

    Some people like being inside assholes. Especially if you bring lubricant. 🙂

  19. Jeff P.,

    I anticipate a whole series of “Life Brian” jokes following that comment. 🙂

  20. What a tragedy! …for so many reasons.

    Among them, with the cops in your home is a rotten way for a libertarian to go.

  21. How sad.

    Also, I agree with gaius marius….the antiauthoritarian outlook isn’t always the model of mental health.

  22. DJ of Raleigh was pretty creative with his poetic-like posts. I enjoyed them anyway.

    A few months ago I saw Mona posting in the comments over at QandO. Don’t know if she still does though.

  23. OK, now having read that article, another holy crap. (Though I’m not sure I remember a Lib. Larry from here, unfortunately.) Trying to negotiate with a dead man — how… macabre, I guess.

  24. smacky,

    Being a minority ideology is never going to be easy.

  25. poco,

    In that way Larry showed up the state for its rampant foolishness I suppose.

  26. matt,

    What is Q & O?

  27. Being a minority ideology is never going to be easy.

    Hakluyt,

    I know this…I’m one of those people that “people say two words to” and don’t interact much.

    On another note, grylliade stole my idea! I was going to do something like this (a drain for the Hit and Run dregs that just won’t go away), but I didn’t get around to it yet. Procrastination bites me in the ass again. Oh well. Thanks, grylliade, for doing what I had intended to do at some unspecified time in the future.

  28. If the whole Jean Bart identity thing is tearing people up, why not enlist Cavanaugha’s help? Surely the records contain enough IP address info to connect the dots.

    But I like the forum idea, I’ve often wished this were more like a regular forum.

  29. I dunno, I’m a newcomer on here, but most of you seem at least reasonably sane. Drug addicts and heathens the lot of you, but sane.

  30. Also, I agree with gaius marius….the antiauthoritarian outlook isn’t always the model of mental health.

    Pfff. You two aren’t the boss of me.

  31. Poor soul. I’m glad he didn’t hurt anyone else.

  32. dead_elvis,

    Its well know that I am one of the people who is Jean Bart. At least I figured it was well known.

    smacky,

    Well, if it makes you feel any better, I like you. (Many wouldn’t this to be a ringing endorsement I realize.)

  33. If the whole Jean Bart identity thing is tearing people up, why not enlist Cavanaugha’s help?

    You need to read the infamous Cavanaugh vs. Gunnels thread from March (?). I’m too lazy to provide the link though.

  34. Hak,

    Remember the “neolibertarain” business a while back?

    I believe that’s where it started. Here’s their site:

    http://www.qando.net/

  35. By the way grylliade, your site’s broken. It won’t let me log in.

    Wait a second….you didn’t smacky-proof it, did you?

    Hrmph. [/kicks a pebble]

    Thanks, Hak. I’d say I like you, too, but I don’t want the Hit and Run mafia knocking on my door tonight.

  36. matt,

    Ahh, that stuff. Republicans calling themselves libertarians. 🙂

  37. Wow. I didn’t realize Pavel had passed, either. For the second time today, mortality sucks.

  38. smacky,

    Heh. Yes, that little cabal will break your legs. 🙂

  39. Smacky, we believe in free association. Now say that you like him, or we shall taunt you a second time!

  40. Julian Sanchez posted a thread that said “Good-Bye, Pavel.” At least I’m pretty sure it was Julian Sanchez. And literally, I was just thinking about his e-mail and “I really should e-mail him ba–” when I went onto this site and saw the thread. A punch in the stomach would have felt better.

  41. I know this may sound weird, but a standoff? What an awesome way to go. That’s tough. I mean that with the utmost respect to the deceased. That’s like, the romanticized stuff of movies. Not that I approve of it…it’s still very sad, and we need all the libertarians we can get.

    I didn’t know him, but he’ll be missed.

  42. I got in no problem smacky.

  43. All this morbid stuff has me thinking. Man, I’ve been on this site for a loong time now. My first comment was probably not too long after H&R went live. How long ago was that?

  44. Smacky, for Chrissake, do you think we model our behavior on really bad in-school Anti-Peer-Pressure films? “Say it, Smacky. All the cool kids say it. You want to be cool, don’t you?”

  45. Smacky, for Chrissake, do you think we model our behavior on really bad in-school Anti-Peer-Pressure films? “Say it, Smacky. All the cool kids say it. You want to be cool, don’t you?”

  46. Smacky, for Chrissake, do you think we model our behavior on really bad in-school Anti-Peer-Pressure films? “Say it, Smacky. All the cool kids say it. You want to be cool, don’t you?”

  47. Jennifer,

    Your interpretation is probably over-literal. You must have Asperger’s Syndrome.

    I’m sure you’ll retort with “I was just joking. Don’t take me literally.”

  48. Ken Schultz,

    Damn. I was kidding at first…but maybe he really did smacky-proof it. I can’t get in. 🙁

    [/the outcast of all outcasts]

  49. smacky,

    Feeling like Butters? 🙂

  50. Maybe Grylliade can start a thread about how “The Fountainhead” sucks. I just finished reading it yesterday, for the first time–yikes. How did that get raised to near-religious levels?

  51. I think my own mental health is a lot better now than when I was more of a leftist/liberal. I’m less bitter and frustrated and more optimistic. Environmentalism is especially steeped in doom and gloom.

  52. You must have Asperger’s Syndrome.

    …I mean really…I’d put money on it.

    Hakluyt will someday bury all those hatchets! …I just know it. ; )

    Smacky,

    I had a problem at first too, but it was because Firefox was inserting my first failed username. Try typing your username and password by hand…

    Did you authorize via the e-mail he sent?

  53. i’m glad someone finally set up a phpbb joint.

    now…on with the girlbanning! marquee tags get!

  54. Ken Shultz,

    I didn’t even get an email! 🙁

    Fuck it…I’ll defect and make my own site. Yeah, and I’m the only one allowed on it.
    It’ll be the most popular site on the web. I swear….

    Hak,

    Who or what is ‘Butters’? Is that some obscure urban reference?

  55. Ken Shultz,

    I’d have to have a reason to first.

    fyodor,

    Well, the sort of anti-capitalist, “the end is nigh” environmentalism of liberals and leftists is certainly going to weigh down on your mental health.

  56. Damn. I was kidding at first…but maybe he really did smacky-proof it. I can’t get in. 🙁

    I’m reminded of the “Club of No-Homers.”

    Well, I’m not going to complete my registration until they let smacky in. So there.

  57. smacky,

    Butters is a kid from South Park who is much maligned by the other South Park kids (its more complicated than that of course).

  58. “Who or what is ‘Butters’? Is that some obscure urban reference?”

    You should watch more South Park before you embarrass yourself further …

  59. God, that would be so typical of me. Even on the web I’m a loser who can’t get in the cool club. One of the contributers needs to send me to the Home for Wayward Hit and Runners. dead_elvis, you can come with me.

  60. Maybe Grylliade can start a thread about how “The Fountainhead” sucks. I just finished reading it yesterday, for the first time–yikes. How did that get raised to near-religious levels?

    Same way the Book of Revelations got popular. Some people will believe any damn thing that makes them feel special.

  61. How did that get raised to near-religious levels?

    The ending bugged me when I first read it back in the ’80s. I’m a developer now, I’ve worked with a handful of architects over the last couple of years, and I swear, if any of ’em ever did that to one of my projects, the law would be the last thing he or she had to worry about. …Nothin’ worse than an architect that wants to turn my investment into a fucking monument to himself.

    I liked Atlas Shrugged better, especially the chapter with the train struck in the tunnel. …but that one bugged me too, especially the part with the hero swinging in on a rope with a pistol on his hip like Indiana Jones. …I know that’s the whole Romantic hero part of her theory, but it didn’t work for me…

    I guess this is the kind of thing Grylliade wants us to talk about over at his place… Huh?

  62. I didn’t even get an email! 🙁

    I think you need it to register–try again.

  63. Hak,
    Its well know that I am one of the people who is Jean Bart. At least I figured it was well known.

    You are a different person than you were as JB or GG. I like you more now. But I am sure there are some books that I should read before I comment further on this. Also, I am probably still a bigot.

    I’d say creating faux historical epochs (what you do) is the more problematic.

    hahahahaha indeed. Although, I’d say Gayuses problems run deeper than that.

  64. Ahh! My years of college education paid off. I just thought to check my Spam folder..that’s where grylliade’s registration email was.

    *breathing a contented sigh of relief*

  65. Ken–
    Even the little details are just so contradictory. On the very last page of the book you’ve got the super-rational Dominique walking through a high-rise construction site in her high heels. Yeah, that’s Rationalism for you, huh?

    And something I said elsewhere: Ayn Rand once said that Dominique was herself in a bad mood. Considering what Ms. Rand’s marriage was like (she’d actually make her husband write term papers on his thought processes or some crap like that), and considering Dominique’s portrayal of the Ideal Female Sex Role, this is how I imagine Ayn Rand’s sex life with Frank O’Connor:

    “Listen, you altruistic marry-me-so-I’m-not-deported piece of shit, I want you to dominate and subdue me, like a real man! Right now! You’ve got ten minutes, loser, and if I haven’t been forced to surrender to your superior male will by then I’ll fucking emasculate you. Stop cowering like that, you pussy!”

    Since I understand the late Ms. Rand spoke with a Russian accent, I always imagine her sounding like Natasha Fatale, too.

  66. I was starting to think that Smacky might be a victim of shadow TIA.

  67. Aw, geez, it’s gettin’ all sensitive in here.

    I know I’m not an H&R bigshot like all the rest of you, but I’ve always felt welcome at H&R…the one place where people seem to share my values…

    Sniff…I love you guys, man…you too smacky…

  68. In the interest of pedantry, and Jay Ward worship, Natasha Fatale was, in fact, Pottsylvanian. (Insert smiley face here.)

  69. kwais,

    Well, I am the same person as far as I know. That I wasn’t the only person who was part of Jean Bart is likely why Jean Bart is such an enigma to so many.

  70. kwais,

    But I am sure there are some books that I should read before I comment further on this.

    You want a list or something? 🙂

  71. Cool site, I just registered, and I saw some of the other members, including Smacky.

    I would like to see something where there can be certain topics, and you can post your 1 comment on it. Say for examble the “FairTax”, or a book, or a law,or something like that. So these topics would not be time sensitive. So I would read a book, or discover an idea, and I could quickly look up other members opinions of it.

    It would not be a debate, just a members review. So there wouldn’t be a million posts about abortion or the death penalty, just one post per person.

    whaddaya think of that idea?

  72. “We’re all Jean Bart…”

  73. “Listen, you altruistic marry-me-so-I’m-not-deported piece of shit, I want you to dominate and subdue me, like a real man! Right now! You’ve got ten minutes, loser, and if I haven’t been forced to surrender to your superior male will by then I’ll fucking emasculate you. Stop cowering like that, you pussy!”

    Ha! That’s the picture I have too. …I know some O People who’ve done the research and insist it wasn’t like that. How would they know?

    …I’ve known a lotta guys who’ve had women treat them that way. …who’ve actually had women say things like that. Typically, it happens when a guy is young and poor and his girl wants to get married. Whenever I’ve heard even a little of that, I’ve always handled it with my own personal coin-flip rule. …The coin-flip rule has never led me astray.

  74. Well, I am the same person as far as I know. That I wasn’t the only person who was part of Jean Bart is likely why Jean Bart is such an enigma to so many.

    So there was more than one of you? Well you seem more personable than the collective was. More personable now than you were as the best JB. But I guess the correct way to figure out how much more personable you are would be to add up all the JB personalities, and then devide them by the number of personalities. Then you would have the median with which to compare.

  75. You want a list or something? 🙂

    Come to think of it, Hak, yes. Please, once and for all, list the books that everyone needs to read before we embarass ourselves further.

    Seriously. I’ve already read From Dawn To Decadence so that I may further bask in the light of Gaius’ approval. For fairness sake, I should probably show you the same consideration.

  76. Jennifer,

    I liked “The Fountainhead,” but you’ve got to have an appreciation for 1)heavy-handed agit-prop and 2) trainwrecks. Also, an English major background that teaches you how to experience a text as an artifact is helpful.

    It reminded me of so-called “outsider art,” in that it juxtaposed flashes of artistic brilliance with amateurishness, and in how it drew attention to its author’s obvious insanity, while creating an entire world in which that insanity was the center of the universe.

  77. Are trolls invited to grylliade’s party?

    Also… I believe the trainwrecks were in Atlas Shrugged, joe. Unless you’re speaking metaphorically, that is.

  78. Ken–

    But for someone like Ayn Rand to insist that female-dominated-by-strong-male is the only proper, rational relationship–Ayn Rand, for fuck’s sake–Jesus! Was she aware of the contradiction? Or did she honestly have herself fooled? Probably the latter, which in turn casts doubt on just how rational she was.

    And she writes this whole big whiny book complaining about unnecessary, purely decorative architectural flourishes on buildings, and then has no problem with a heroine wearing high heels and no hard hat to a construction site. Uh huh. No internal contradictions there.

    I want that missing day of my life back. And I know I can’t have it.

  79. Which reminds me, joe, after you laid into someone not too long ago about the differences between Yakov Smirnoff’s paintings and Social Realist art*, there’s a book out you might enjoy called American Gothic, about the Grant Wood painting, its inspiration, creation and history, its appropriation by both the right- and left-wings over the years for different purposes, and its replication throughout popular culture. It’s a quick read, really interesting.

    *Could this sentence exist anywhere else in the universe?

  80. smacky- my email got sent to the ‘bulk email’ graveyard. Check there.

  81. kwais,

    So there was more than one of you?

    Yes. Some people suspected that as I recall.

    Heh. I’ve never been very personable. That’s just not me.

  82. Fuck it. My boyfriend’s a foot taller than I am and outweighs me by a hundred pounds, so I’m going to go invent this entire damned philosophy and insist, among other things, that the only proper romantic relationship is one where the female towers over the male. And I’ll insist with a straight face that I never contradict myself. And if you say otherwise I’ll throw you out of my Collective. Viva my rationalism.

    I actually found this book worse than Atlas Shrugged, in some ways. At least with Atlas I could understand why Rand was so furious.

  83. It just occured to me: H&R now faces competition.

    And there was much rejoicing by the libertarians.

  84. Whenever I’ve heard even a little of that, I’ve always handled it with my own personal coin-flip rule. …The coin-flip rule has never led me astray.

    Ken,

    What’s the coin flip rule? I must know!

  85. I only caught the tail-end of Jean Bart. Maybe Gunnels disposed of him.

    And she writes this whole big whiny book complaining about unnecessary, purely decorative architectural flourishes on buildings

    Thanks for the warning – now I know I won’t read it. I have nothing but contempt for the architectural “avant-garde” who inflicted the “International Style” on the world, with its arrogant rejection of the past. They’ve managed to make us incapable of building anything very attractive anymore.

  86. I just registered for the site, and there’s this bizarre page about getting “points” and everything. What? I have no idea where to make a comment.

    Smacky–
    It took less than a minute for my email to arrive, and my account is usually insanely slow. Any possibility you made a mistake in typing in your address or something?

  87. Jennifer, can I be part of this new philosophy of yours? A good portion of girls I’ve dated have been 6′ tall.

  88. I’ve registered and haven’t recieved my email yet…it ahs been about 5 or 6 minutes…maybe I should be a little more patient.

  89. Jennifer,

    The line that summed up Rand’s vagina problems best in “The Fountainhead” was her description of the female labor organizer as having “the sort of hands that would drop things all over the kitchen.”

    Uh, yeah, preach to me about liberation and oppression, you soulless fool. Shouldn’t the first duty of an individualist be the pursuit of self-awareness?

  90. You’re welcome to join, Steven, if you’re not put off by my plans to have it be a total personality cult centered around me. And remember: no matter how many internal contradictions you think you can spot, the philosophy of Objenniferism is so tightly reasoned that if you accept one small part of it, you must accept it all! Should you think otherwise, you need to check your premises.

  91. Objectivism. . . . objenniferism. . . . okay, in retrospect I rather regret having attempted that pun.

  92. But for someone like Ayn Rand to insist that female-dominated-by-strong-male is the only proper, rational relationship–Ayn Rand, for fuck’s sake–Jesus! Was she aware of the contradiction? Or did she honestly have herself fooled? Probably the latter, which in turn casts doubt on just how rational she was.

    The suggestion that it’s the only rational relationship is problematic. Sexuality itself is so very complicated. …and it’s complicated by culture, age group, etc.

    …but there is something to the idea that the woman in a man’s life is his ultimate social achievement. …something to be conquered, like a climber looking at a mountain. Rand, I think, saw it that way, and it flows from evolutionary biology, doesn’t it?

    That doesn’t mean she thought that women should be subjugated. I think she saw it as a subjugation of the willing, but success was never final. Evolutionary biology assumes that the female of the species will only mate with the best specimen she can find. …at the time, usually.

    Lions totally subject themselves to a dominant male, right up until a better one comes along. …Have you read Henderson the Rain King?

  93. Jennifer:
    http://www.grylliade.org/ looks like it uses the same code as http://slashdot.org/. If that is true the points allow people who log in to moderate messages up or down. For our purposes we can probably just ignore that on his page.

  94. That’s cool, joe, and it’s not really written with the art expert or aesthetician in mind. It just sparked a connection with me because, in discussing criticism of the painting from the left, it went into how social realism was really the only way to properly depict the poor in the midst of the Depression, and how Wood’s painting was suspiciously white and nonsatirical and must therefore be reactionary, etc., etc. Interesting stuff.

  95. If you want to see an example of the former, there are many, many pieces of paintings as agitprop of Stalin, or you can look at artwork in North Korea.

  96. Wow. By a funny coincidence, I just happened to be running an electrical current through my testicles when I read Tim’s —

    Oh damn. I’m on the wrong thread again. Thank goodness I can discuss this on grylliade.org!

  97. Jennifer,

    On the left side of the page, under the “modules” box, there’s a “Forums” link. It took me a while to find it too.

    … so I’m going to go invent this entire damned philosophy and insist, among other things, that the only proper romantic relationship is one where the female towers over the male.

    Does this mean that us short guys can finally have half a chance?

  98. Ken–

    I’ve only read Atlas and Fountainhead, so I’m not familiar with every sex scene she’s done, but where did she ever portray sex as anything other than either rough, or cold, or some variation thereof? Even the passionate encounters had a coldness to them. I mean, hooray for rough sex between consenting individuals and everything, but when pretty much every “healthy” relationship is portrayed that way I detect a theme.

    It wasn’t just Dominique–I stopped counting the number of potential clients and other (male) characters in The Fountainhead who kept “wanting to submit” to Roark’s amazing whatever.

    It’s not that I disagree with your interpretation; it’s that I think something that might work fine in regards to one’s sex life shouldn’t necessarily cover every single aspect of that person’s life.

    Also, though I wasn’t bothered by the first time Dominique and Howard had sex, I was really bugged by the second time–“Hi, Howard, I’m going to systematically try to ruin your career, and every time I score a victory I’ll come here and we’ll have sex.” WTF?

  99. Does this mean that us short guys can finally have half a chance?

    I wouldn’t bank on it.

  100. Although, I’d say Gayuses problems run deeper than that.

    not as deep as that homophobia of yours, mr kwais. 🙂

  101. Jeff Streicher,

    Do you make a habit of taking every politician’s description of himself at face value? Vladimir Zhirinovsky’s party in Russia promotes anti-semitism, Russian Nationalism, aggressive militarism, and extensive police powers. It is known as the “Liberal Democratic Party.”

  102. Does this mean that us short guys can finally have half a chance?

    Assuming my philosophy attracts as many women as Rand’s. . . . not really.

  103. I’ve already read From Dawn To Decadence so that I may further bask in the light of Gaius’ approval. For fairness sake, I should probably show you the same consideration.

    excellent, mr mk. what’s your synopsis?

  104. I wouldn’t bank on it.

    Assuming my philosophy attracts as many women as Rand’s. . . . not really.

    Damn!

  105. So I recognize the name of everyone on Grylliade’s site except “Emily Jo.” Who is that?

  106. I am sure that M1EK will soon be assuring us that the NAZIs didn’t adopt massive welfare programs or enhance those already in place in 1933. 🙂

  107. Gaius,

    I loved it of course. I especially liked his attention to the role of women through history. Something that is often overlooked, but that’s just one thing. I could go on and on.
    It was also a nice change to read a history book that was something other than a chronological list of horribly bloody episodes. That was especially nice given the book I had just finished – Josephus Flavius’ Wars of the Jews: The Destruction Of Jerusalem (book 5, I think), depressing stuff.

    Barzun’s self-assured writing style did remind me of someone 🙂

  108. gaius marius,

    Its the sort of crap you’d expect out of someone who subscribes to the “Great Books” mantra.

  109. Hak,

    I assume you are working on the list of “Not So Great Books” we should read.

  110. gaius marius,

    Of course, lashing out at the bourgeois is commonplace in this century and the last.

  111. mk,

    I don’t presume to make such lists. I can of make lists on certain subjects which I think are important.

  112. I especially liked his attention to the role of women through history.

    it is amazing to me still that the conceit of the modernist insists that women have been unjustly oppressed for all of time until just the last 100 years. (then again, most people here seem to assume that everyone was oppressed until just recently — or are still oppressed. 🙂 )

    i’m happy you enjoyed it. it is a brilliant work, imo.

  113. Of course, lashing out at the bourgeois is commonplace in this century and the last.

    they’ve certainly earned it, at least as much as the nobility they ostensibly replaced, gg.

  114. What Barzun reminds me of is a latter-day Heidegger or Schmitt. Loathing modernity, viewing it as crass materialism, seeking some former past era that never existed but which he pines for anyway.

  115. gaius marius,

    Well, you are our local latter-day Heidegger or Schmitt.

  116. It is I, Jean Bart!

  117. Jean Bart,

    Come to avail us of your powers as a corsair? 🙂

  118. It’s like all those old Superman comics where Lois is determined to prove that Clark is Superman, only to see them hanging out together.

    Also, I like that Jean Bart rhymes with Lawn Dart. No insight, here. I just like it.

  119. Loathing modernity, viewing it as crass materialism, seeking some former past era that never existed but which he pines for anyway.

    perhaps the first two — but as to the last, gg, that’s the strawman you consistently want me to be but that i am not. i cite history because one can learn from it; but i don’t think we can or should try to go back to it.

    that being something of a nuanced position, and this being a chatboard, i realize that few if any will ever make the distinction. but it is important.

  120. Hak,

    Give me just one High Fidelity style top ten list and I’ll be happy. It could be “Top ten books to harass Gaius with” or something. You could Shermer at the top of the list.

    Gaius,
    I recently found out that one of the signatories at the Seneca Falls Convention was a mormon and practicing polygamist. Apparently, this being the time of The Yellow Wallpaper, there is some reason to consider the wives within polygamous mormon marriages to be a fair site more empowered than many of their eastern non-mormon counterparts. I had to admit that I had never thought of it that way. Clearly, there is much for me to learn.

  121. i don’t think we can or should try to go back to it.

    in opposition, for example, to constitutional “originalists”, who would fit a dead law to their dying society.

  122. Vladimir Zhirinovsky’s party in Russia promotes anti-semitism, Russian Nationalism, aggressive militarism, and extensive police powers.

    And in with all that, rather bizarrely, he was advocating that 14 year old girls lose their virginity to older men. Seriously.

  123. gaius marius,

    You’ve been asked repeatedly to periodize this supposed historical epoch which you constantly pine for (and you do pine for it). Like the intellectual coward that you are, you refuse to do so. A real historian would have no problem doing this. They’d periodize, they’d describe the factors involved, etc. You are bullshit artist who has confused your own pining for an imagined past with a real one and that quite frankly is all you will ever be.

    As to what Heidegger and Scmitt thought (or Kittel for that matter), you’ve never read them so you wouldn’t know what the hell they thought.

    mk,

    That’s a little more manageable. Let me think on it.

  124. gaius marius,

    When you conjure up the nuts to periodize, etc. I’ll take you seriously. Until then, you are like any other crank that real historians have to put up with.

  125. You could Shermer at the top of the list.

    lol

    Clearly, there is much for me to learn.

    for everyone — even gg, i’ll go out on a limb to say. 😉

  126. “excellent, mr mk. what’s your synopsis?”

    And Jennifer thought it was bad that Ayn Rand handed out assignments to her husband…

    mk,

    You should be careful following gaius down that rabbit hole for the same reason kwais shouldn’t worry about his sanity. Ultimately, he knows he’s full of it. (Honestly, I mean that in the nicest possible way.) Some of the other folks here are much more confused in that regard.

  127. Gayus,
    Homophobe because I misspell your name?

    I don’t judge your sexuality, I am just confused by more than two vowels hanging out together. I could have gone Gah eeh us.

    Or are you relating from another thread?

  128. Anyway, back to the crap which is Barzun’s work. The decadence which Barzun writes of essentially boils down to the fact that people no longer act or wear the things they did in a time period he romanticizes. Folks no longer wear ties to the opera and guys no longer open doors for women (never mind that most folks never engaged in such practices to start with). TV is too ubiqitous (thus parallelling the technological determinism found in such books as “Amusing Ourselves To Death”), there is too much nudity in public life, etc. All the crap you’d expect a social conservative to say.

  129. gaius,

    Someday you’ll learn do distiguish between Bork’s originalism that restricts (without any rational basis) the Constition to the moral philosophies of the 17th century vs. Barnett’s originalism, which focuses the original meaning of words with a more concrete definition (such as Commerce and Arms) but still leaves plenty of elasticity for philosophical concepts such as “cruel and unusual punishment” and “rights…retained by the people”.

  130. Oh, then there is Barzun’s critique of contemporary violence, which seems to forget that the 20th century had a higher body count because there were more people to kill (and better ways to kill them) not because it was a more violent period. Barzun’s book is supposed to be profound, but instead its a laundry list along the lines of a “Great Books” seminar spiced with the sort of tiresome, non-sensiscal rhetoric you expect out of a social conservative.

  131. You should be careful following gaius down that rabbit hole

    Ah, Lewis Carroll. One of the great things about having a daughter was getting to read Through The Looking Glass to her about a dozen times. I think I enjoyed it more than she did.

    Anyway, I’ve checked my schedule. I have plenty of time for the occasional trip down a rabbit hole.

  132. moral philosophies of the 17th century

    Excuse me…18th cetury…

  133. MP,

    I’ve already had this argument with gaius marius and joe. Apparently they were flat out stunned that such distinctions existed. As if they were wholly unread on the subject and garnered their knowledge from just the memes that were floating around on the subject.

  134. I think Libertarian Larry was before my time, but I was sorry to hear of his passing in such an awful way.

  135. i’ve often wondered about the stability of some posters here. the whole pathological antiauthoritarian outlook isn’t exactly a model of mental health, after all.

    Perhaps I’d be more trusting of authority figures if they didn’t regularly misuse their authority.

    Regardless, you aren’t upset about pathological antiauthoritarianism. You’re just upset that no one here buys into your supposedly superior authority structure.

  136. (and you do pine for it)

    i love how you know what is in my heart, gg. my wonder only increases as to how you see so deeply into it while looking around that enormous ego. 🙂

    you want me to periodize (again, as i have in fact answered this point before) western civility? ok.

    7th-9th c origins — charles martel, gregory the great, charlemagne, reorganization of society from barbarism and lawlessness, incorporation of scandinavians and germans into lawful christian body social

    10th-12th health — the height of respublica christiana and government of morality (though never perfect, of course)

    12th-14th precursors to failure — rcc becomes obsessed with itself and the mundane, resorts to wider and wider persecution; rise of the secular city state and the despot (frederick hohenstaufen) in response to the excesses of the church

    15th-16th breakdown — wars of religion over material aspirations of the rcc and the nobility; masses abandoning social compact with dessicated church and nobility alike

    17th-21th decline — initial rejection of religious passion, which results in birth of relativism, returns in the yet more unbridled insidious form of nationalism; increasing sense of loss and ever greater pining for a return to the old; rise of utopians; rise of empires designed to bind by force that which cannot be attracted by merit; ever greater fracturing of society, retreating into the microcosm of the self.

    now, forgive me — i’m summarizing 20 years of reading and countless historians in a few paragraphs. attack will be easy. but you want nothign so much, i know, as something to attack — so have at it, gg. 🙂

  137. Hak:
    I open doors for women. However I think double doors may have a little something to do with the practice more or less ending. 🙂

  138. gaius,

    So your position is that Western society has been in decline for almost 800 years?

  139. “So your position is that Western society has been in decline for almost 800 years?”

    Cool, huh? 200 years of people living in filth and misery as dirt farmers as a peak, followed by 800 years of ever improving quality of life which constitute a fall…

  140. gaius marius,

    i love how you know what is in my heart, gg.

    Yes, when you wax romantically for it I should just assume that you are neutral on the subject. Ha!

    you want me to periodize (again, as i have in fact answered this point before) western civility?

    Acttually you have refused repeatedly to do so, not only to me but to other posters.

    …reorganization of society from barbarism and lawlessness…

    Right. This period was no more or less barbaric or lawless than the period prior to or following it.

    …incorporation of scandinavians and germans into lawful christian body social

    Calling bloody massacres and warfare “incorporation” is rather funny and quite Orwellian too boot.

    10th-12th health — the height of respublica christiana and government of morality (though never perfect, of course)

    Ha ha ha! Yes, massacres of Jews! The period of some of the greatest pogroms in European history is your Respublica Christiana! Ha ha ha! Ha ha ha! Ha ha ha!

    This is also a period when the break-up of Charlemagne’s empire was complete and his sons rampaged through much of Europe in an effort to take what they could by force.

    12th-14th precursors to failure — rcc becomes obsessed with itself and the mundane…

    It was always obssessed with itself. Any decent history of its history on the Italian peninsula demonstrates such as well as its conflicts with vary secular leaders.

    …resorts to wider and wider persecution…

    As if the centuries of persecution before this were any better.

  141. JDM,

    See, material existance, etc. doesn’t mean squat to gaius marius. Its that we don’t live in an organic, paternalistic society full of strongmen who rule over us benignly that pisses him off.

    gaius marius,

    BTW, in the 15th century, which “wars of religion” are you talking about? The minor conflicts with the Hussites and the Lollards? The “wars of religion” as properly understood occurred in the 16th and 17th centuries. You can’t even get the periodization of your claims right.

    BTW, I should note that your periodization doesn’t even appear to deal with most of the West’s history, which has nothing to do with what was going on in Germany, Britain and France – the main object of your discussion (and Barzun’s).

  142. i’ve often wondered about the stability of some posters here. the whole pathological antiauthoritarian outlook isn’t exactly a model of mental health, after all.

    Any pathological outlook is, by definition, not the model of mental health. The question is of course, which outlooks are pathological?

    After all, everyone posting and commenting here, (except the stone-throwing Republicans and Democrats) are self-evidently political cranks, yourself included. Some of us are crackpots. (Some of the non-crank minority may have cracked pots, but along different fault lines.) Sorting out the crackpots is a tougher problem.

  143. JDM,

    When gaius marius calls the barbaric, bloody warfare against the Germans “incorporation” your bullshit detector should go off immediately. Charlemagne spent most of his reign at war with people who forcefully resisted his and the Church’s efforts to be included in their dominion and that is the sort of beautiful social relationship that gauis marius pines for. The Church and secular leaders then went on during his supposed high point to massacre Jews and “Saracens.” His “high point” was a Europe of low prosperity, low population density, low rates of literacy, primitive transportation routes (far more primitive than at any time since the time of the late Roman Republic), etc. But oh, it was indeed a joyous time when their was a great social compact that allowed people to kill Jews at will. When Europe couldn’t defend itself against the Magyars or the Vikings.

  144. In other words, when gaius marius’ model is tested against the actual historical record, it falls apart.

  145. gaius marius,

    BTW, I just can’t get over you calling Charlemagne’s wars (sometimes genocidal in their overall pattern) against Germans and other non-Christians “incorporation.” Your statement is filled with so much falsity its difficult to wrap one’s mind around.

  146. gaius,

    i’m summarizing 20 years of reading and countless historians in a few paragraphs.

    I have to say that as easily as I fisked your statements I seriously doubt this claim. I’d guess that you’ve read about a half a dozen books and most of them were read to reinforce your worldview.

  147. The site doesn’t accept spaces in nicknames. Feh.

  148. As if they were wholly unread on the subject and garnered their knowledge from just the memes that were floating around on the subject.

    What? whats wrong with that as long as you garner the right memes? I don’t have the time or attention span to read all those books.

  149. Eric the .5b,

    Just do something like this: Eric_the_.5b

  150. 17th-21th decline — initial rejection of religious passion, which results in birth of relativism, returns in the yet more unbridled insidious form of nationalism; increasing sense of loss and ever greater pining for a return to the old; rise of utopians; rise of empires designed to bind by force that which cannot be attracted by merit; ever greater fracturing of society, retreating into the microcosm of the self.

    Gaius, perhaps you should lead by example. If you care to escape from the microcosm of the self, you’re more than welcome to come over and do my dishes.

    Cheers~
    mg

  151. Well, I’m glad gaius finally nailed down some specifics after long speaking in the abstract…

    Yikes. When the apocalypse comes and it’s time for us Hit & Runners to form society anew, the first person we shoot is gaius. Agreed?

  152. kwais,

    The problem is that many memes are false.

    Of course this is gaius marius we’re talking about here. Someone who claims that scientific inquiry is blind when it comes to complex, non-linear systems, but who can in some fashion come to a very concrete conclusion (and presumably unassailable in his mind) about a complex, non-linear system like the human past.

  153. mediageek,

    This line was especially funny:

    …rise of empires designed to bind by force that which cannot be attracted by merit…

    Sort of how European Christians dealt with non-Christians from the 4th century onward.

  154. God love you Larry, you nut. Rest in peace.

    https://www.reason.com/hitandrun/2004/11/wake_up_and_go.shtml

  155. LARRY’S DEAD?

    WHAT THE PHQUE, CAUVANAUGA?!

  156. I’d say creating faux historical epochs (what you do) is the more problematic.

    Croesus Epoch
    Merovingian Epoch
    Jean Bart Epoch
    1st Gary Gunnels Epoch
    Jason Bourne Epoch
    2nd Gary Gunnels Epoch
    Epoch of the Gunnels Ban
    Hakluyt Epoch

    Did I leave any out? 🙂

  157. Ghost of Past,

    Wow! That was quite an exchange… I’m scared. …Please tell me that isn’t going to happen to me when I’m old.

    …What do you mean it’s already starting to happen?!

    I think I’m gonna go down to the DMV and register as a Democrat. …and pre-pay my registration… Wow.

  158. kwais,

    Y is a vowel. Sometimes, anyway.

  159. too damn…,

    Those are faux personages, not epochs. 🙂

  160. Those are faux personages, not epochs. 🙂

    Yes, but they appeared serially, so one could use them to mark time in the history of Hit & Run. 🙂

  161. too damn…,

    You have a point there. Hmm, one is reminded of the various periods of life on this planet in that case.

  162. “i don’t think we can or should try to go back to it.

    in opposition, for example, to constitutional “originalists”, who would fit a dead law to their dying society.”

    Aw, yeeeeeeaaaaahhhh! Jean Gary tries to troll gaius, and gaius troll slaps him into next week!

    Boo yah!

  163. And then Hak Gunnels calls him names. I said God damn!

  164. joe,

    I didn’t troll gaius and gaius didn’t slap me. Its nice to see that you are (despite your protests otherwise) still reading my posts. Your little clique just can’t remain consistent on the whole “ignore Hakluyt” campaign. Ha ha ha.

  165. joe,

    BTW, since you are reading my posts, you are invited to find a single error in my analysis. Or you can continue your poodle yapping from the bench.

  166. So anyway, since this thread is all over the place, there’s something I’ve been wanting to get off my chest.

    I just finished by last day at work at may job. I got a new job. I’m no longer going to be an evil city planner. I’m now going to be an evil town planner. And there’s a very special message I’d like to send out to someone.

    Hey, “Anti-joe,” also known as “Anonymous Coward” and about a dozen other names…

    You’ve been trying to threaten me with telling my boss that I post during working hours for about three years now, but you are too fucking stupid to figure out where I work in Massachusetts.

    It’s Lowell, bitch! Lowell, the home of the industrial revolution in America! Lowell, American’s first planned industrial city. Jesus Christ, I’ve written about “Merrimack Street,” I’ve written about “Kirk Boott,” I’ve written about “America’s first planned industrial city,” and you’ve been guessing and writing things like “the city of Fitchburg, Massachusetts” for three fucking years, and you were never able to figure it out!

    Ha ha! Were you dropped as an infant, or were you born this stupid?

    Hey, prick, my former boss was George Proakis, Chief Planner of the City of Lowell. His boss was Matt Coggins, Director of Planning and Development. His boss was John Cox, City Manager. Go ahead, send those links you’ve been wanting to fuck me over with for the past three fucking years – I don’t care, I don’t work there any more.

    Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaa!! Fucking idiot!!!

    My new job? I’ll give you a hint: I’m working in a town in New England. Happy hunting, you shiteating piece of dog crap!

  167. See, this is what I love about the hypocrisy of joe, Jennifer and thoreau. They can pretend to ignore me while also shooting across my bow from time to time. It provides them the best of both worlds really – they can ignore my withering critiques while also attacking me at the same time. Its the basest form of intellectual cowardice I can think of.

  168. That was beautiful, joe. The only thing that would have made it more complete was your two former superiors’ email addresses, just for the pure fun of it.

    (Hoists glass of Macallan 18-year-old to joe.)

  169. joe,

    …the home of the industrial revolution in America!

    While the Lowell mills were important, they by themselves were not the home of the industrial revolution in the U.S. Unless of course you are ignorant enough to assume that textile manufacturing was all that was part of the industrial revolution (and Lowell by itself wasn’t the length and breadth of even that industry). You are leaving out paper making in the Berkshires, gun-making in Springfield and Harper’s Ferry, etc.

    Lowell, American’s first planned industrial city.

    If you read the monographs on Lowell you’ll find out quickly that the planning went by the boards soon enough after first the New England women and then the Irish, etc. started actually working there.

    BTW, I have to admit that was one of the most childish posts you have ever written here.

  170. joe,

    Don’t think you can hide from us very long. I never bothered to look until now, but the third link when Googling “joe boyle planner” was this.

    And when we find you, we will fart in your general direction.

  171. Good luck at your new job, joe!

    Hak: c’est la vie, tu sais….

    Phil: cheers! (will join you with some Noah’s Mill Bourbon in about two hours).

    amicalment a tous,
    VM

  172. I hope your old bosses already knew you posted here.

    City planning is a small field, I’m guessing, and word gets around. Perhaps an email to TCav to pull that post is in order.

  173. Hak (Since I’m too drunk to follow any particular set of rules, my own included),

    Lowell was not, of course, the first location of a textile mill in the New World – that would be Pawtucket, Rhode Island.

    Howevever, Lowell was the home of the first industrial corporation. Prior to the “Lowell model,” an individual, or a partership, would use his own money to build a mill, and would then operate it for profit. The size and capacity of the mill would be limited by the resources he posessed.

    The Lowell system was different – a number of businessmen came together, and raised capital from outside sources, to build a mill in Woburn. The profits, and additional capital raised from other sources, were then used to build not just another mill, but to found a city, and build multiple mill complexes there. The operations were directed by employees of the corporation, rather than the miller himself raising capital to construct a facility to own and operate by himself.

    In fact, the corporation didn’t really make its money by churning out textiles. Like modern mall developers, they built a mill, operated it for a profit for a couple years, then sold it at a profit, distributing some of the money among themselves, and using the rest to repeat the effort again, and again and again.

    So, what I’m trying to say, is that I really don’t need you to inform about Lowell, about the role it played in the industrial development of this country, about how the owners operated their business, or about anything else remoted related to the subject.

    Mmm-kay? Why don’t you go back to getting your ass kicked by the guy with the Etruscan fetish?

  174. Joe:
    Congratulations on the new job. Good luck.

  175. All,

    Whereas I have been liberated from the oppression of lowly Neighborhood Plannerdom, and taken into the bosom of a municipality that both appreciates, compensates, and calls upon my abilities to their rightful degree, I expect that I will unable to maintain my, admittedly, prodigious rate of commentary upon taking up my new duties this Thanksgiving week.

    It has been quite enjoyable to operate within the top tier of Reason-er-atti for the past few dozen months, but after another week of time-wasting bliss, I fear that I will be reduced to posting on evenings and weekends, with only the merest one-offs during lunchtimes to tide me over. Alas, I join the ranks of the second tier.

    M1EK, it now falls to you to prevent this raucus cacaphony from degenerating into a soporific mutual admiration society, bloated with its own unquestioned and self-serving assumptions. I, myself, began my Hit & Run career as a one-lining, libertoid-mocking troll, and your output of late has convinced me that I am leaving the liberal-gadfly duties in capable hands.

  176. joe-

    Congrats on the new gig!

    Please join us at grylliade.org.

  177. MP,

    “And when we find you, we will fart in your general direction.”

    Is there someone else I can talk to?

  178. Congratulations, Joe. I suppose the anti-Joe will have to find someone else to threaten now.

  179. Congrads joe.

    I have to work with planners, and I wish they were all as smart as you.

  180. M1EK, you realize that if you don’t make joe proud and fill his shoes, Jennifer and I will be the most liberal people among the regulars 🙂

  181. joe,

    Hak (Since I’m too drunk to follow any particular set of rules, my own included)

    I’d say you are too dishonest to follow your own rules actually.

    Lowell was not, of course, the first location of a textile mill in the New World – that would be Pawtucket, Rhode Island.

    Its not an issue of whether it was the first textile mill, or the first textile town, in the New World. Your claim was very specific. That the industrial revolution in the U.S. (America!) started in Lowell. Which if flat out wrong. Historians of technology would have a field day with your remark. But hey, why defend your statement when all you need do is shift the locus of debate to something more convenient, huh?

    Howevever, Lowell was the home of the first industrial corporation.

    Which again is hardly the same claim as what you originally stated. In other words, you have written nothing which backs up your original statement.

    In fact, the corporation didn’t really make its money by churning out textiles. Like modern mall developers, they built a mill, operated it for a profit for a couple years, then sold it at a profit, distributing some of the money among themselves, and using the rest to repeat the effort again, and again and again.

    Which is again inapposite re: your original claim. As inapposite as if you were to give us a disquisition on basket weaving.

    That you wrote nothing which actually undermines or contests my statements is just par for the course for you. Anyway, good riddance to you. I’m happy to see you leave.

    Why don’t you go back to getting your ass kicked by the guy with the Etruscan fetish?

    *yawn* First of all, Gaius Marius wasn’t an Etruscan (the Etruscans were long gone before he entered the scene), and second, our gauis marius has as yet to kick my ass. You’d like for him too of course. It would fit your craven emotional needs and what not. But as you are well aware, and as you have stated yourself, I am brilliant, and far above his (or your) pedestrian abilities.

    BTW, having visited Lowell in the last year I can say if that town is a exhibit of your talents, then they are good to be rid of you. What a shitpile.

  182. Hakluyt,

    My last post was too harsh as a response to yours. Once again, you demonstrate a remarkable degree of knowledge about an obscure subject, but there are two minor factual errors on your part to clear up.

    First of all, saying “papermaking the Berkshires” isn’t quite right. Chicopee and Holyoke were in the Connecticut River valley, while Fitchburg (the home of the second paper mill in New England), Miller’s Falls, and Turner’s Falls were in the Nashua and Miller’s River valleys, well east of the Berkshires.

    Second, the New England women were the original labor force in the mills, and their habitation in the city was an integral part of its development within the original city plan. They occupied the original double-chimneyed dormatories called for in the corporation’s original patriarchal vision, not the hellish laissez faire tenements that sprouted up as the capitalist, mercantile city was laid over the original plan. Had you said “Irish and then the French-Canadians,” your statement would be correct.

  183. joe,

    …taken into the bosom of a municipality that both appreciates, compensates, and calls upon my abilities to their rightful degree…,/i>

    You mean a town hired you. Wow, joe got hired by a town, that must mean that the entire town wants him there. Not.

  184. Congrats on the new job, joe.

    And shame on anybody who threatened to “tell on you.”

    Sorry to hear that you don’t expect to be able to post so much in the future. Perhaps a worthy successor will arise in your place. 🙂

  185. OK, now I can be harsh.

    The Industrial Revolution was not merely the consequence of the construction of industrial facilities, which dated back to the 1770s, but of the growth of the industrial corporation. Had operations along the model of the Slater Mill simply become more and more common, the process wouldn’t have been revolutionary, but merely evolutionary. It was the vast growth of potential brought about by the corporate model that was the revolutionary spark.

    You would do well to consider, when you encounter a point you don’t immediately concur with, the possibility that it is you who isn’t grasping the extent of the issue.

    I suggest you come to Lowell, spend a few hours touring the National Park and reading up on the subject, and listening to the Parks Department employees, before you embarrass yourself further.

    “First of all, Gaius Marius wasn’t an Etruscan”

    No, or course not, but “Etruscan fetish” has a certain phoenetic lilt that “Latin fetish” or “Roman fetish” lacks. It’s the additional syllable, and the hard T and SC sounds.

    “What a shitpile.” I prefer “work in progress.” You should have seen it five years ago.

  186. Cower in abject fear, joe, before the might wrath of the Historians of Technology!!

    Which would, in point of fact, be a SUPER COOL name for an indie rock band . . . like inspired by the techno-geekery of Devo, but with the ironic slacker ethos of Pavement, and the energy and weirdness of the Pixies. Also, the drummer is a chick.

  187. joe,

    Once again, you demonstrate a remarkable degree of knowledge about an obscure subject, but there are two minor factual errors on your part to clear up.

    Its not obscure for historians of technology or labor historians for that matter. Its well trodden over ground for them. Check out their work sometime.

    First of all, saying “papermaking the Berkshires” isn’t quite right.

    Actually, it is quite right. See the classic: Most Wonderful Machine by Judith Mcgaw (it concerns paper-making – first rag paper – from 1801 to the latter part of the 19th century). I get to shake my head and laugh now. I’m still waiting for you demonstrate your original claim – that the industrial revolution in America! started in Lowell, Ma.

    Second, the New England women were the original labor force in the mills, and their habitation in the city was an integral part of its development within the original city plan.

    No kidding. The “mill girls” had their own newspaper and everything. See the nice collection of letters in: Thomas Dublin’s Farm To Factory as well as his classic Women at Work. All of these books sit on my bookshelf and have been read by me on several occassions.

    They occupied the original double-chimneyed dormatories called for in the corporation’s original patriarchal vision…

    Which if you had read Dublin’s work turned out never to live up to that vision at all. Planning went by the wayside very quickly once the women started to run the places as they saw fit.

    Had you said “Irish and then the French-Canadians,” your statement would be correct.

    That’s what the “etc.” was for you dope. Here, let me quote myself for further elucidation: If you read the monographs on Lowell you’ll find out quickly that the planning went by the boards soon enough after first the New England women and then the Irish, etc. started actually working there.

    Thanks for correcting my non-error.

  188. Phil,

    Is the bassist also a chick? A burly chick?

  189. I just finished by last day at work at may job. I got a new job. I’m no longer going to be an evil city planner. I’m now going to be an evil town planner.

    Joe, congratulations and happy belated World Town Planner Day!

  190. Nice dodge, Hak – when it’s pointed out that papermaking was neither unique to the Berkshires, nor did the region have a particular dominance in the trade, you respond by noting that there WAS SO papermaking in the Berkshires, and expect your snide tone to distract people from the factual point.

    And no, the development of their own newspapers and other social institutions did not alter the plan of the city – that was to come with their replacement by immigrant labor, and the housing of that labor in private rental housing. Oh, wait, you didn’t actually contradict my point, so much as make a different, unrelated point, and hope nobody noticed. As usual.

    FYI, because it’s clearly not your native tongue, I’ll point out that appending “etc.” to the end of a list does not, in English, mean “remove the first item from this list.”

  191. No, man, the bass player is a coyly gay metrosexual type.

  192. Jason,

    Screw that. There’s no way I’m reviewing the entire world’s subdivision submittals.

    M1EK, “urban planners who want to force people to live in mile-high warrens and recycle their own waste and probably forcibly infect everyone with teh gay” Shhhhhhh! The ormal-nay eople-pay are going to find out!

    “I’m afraid I can’t fill most of your planning shoes, though, since I think most of our problems would be solved by eliminating zoning and letting the market sort stuff out.” Actually, I do, too, and so do most of the planners I’ve worked with. It’s a tough sell to the politicians, though, but great journeys beging with a single step.

  193. OK, Phil, but if they’re the Historians of Technology, they’ve got to have a mono-phonic synth. Deal?

  194. See, material existance, etc. doesn’t mean squat to gaius marius. Its that we don’t live in an organic, paternalistic society full of strongmen who rule over us benignly that pisses him off.

    actually, it’s rather that none of us are happy. anyone here claim to be happy with their life? their society? their leadership? themselves? very few, i suspect (excepting of course gg, who will claim to be as happy as anyone ever has been because he has to in order to win an argument — although the spirit of his posts here and indeed that very need to win betray a spirit that is decidedly something other than happy….)

    looked at in this way, i think it becomes more apparent that, whatever technique has accomplished in the western world, it has done as compensation to — in alleviation of — problems that have mounted against it. each of these corresponds to a loss of happiness, and each technique in response offers less a moral solution to the problem than a massaging of its symptoms — and, in so doing, creating other problems in mitigating the original. this is apparent in any meaningful survey of the history of western art and literature over the period in question (and there are many to choose from — i prefer northrop frye), as it traces an arc from religious/mythological to heroic to mimetic to ironic, as the position of man in art evolved from superhuman to human to a rat in a cage.

    So your position is that Western society has been in decline for almost 800 years?

    it’s quite difficult to people acclimated to a technological society of scientism and its outlook to understand this change, taught to believe that improved technique — longer lives, more machinery, faster change, economic advantage — are the object of life and the supposed pursuit of happiness. but once the idea that these pursuits are merely a surrogate for a pursuit of actual human happiness that has been long abandoned is grasped, it explains much about the western world and the layers of anxiety, depression, escapism, detachment and profound irony that permeate postmodern existence.

  195. Heh heh heh. I love you guys.

  196. joe,

    The Industrial Revolution was not merely the consequence of the construction of industrial facilities, which dated back to the 1770s, but of the growth of the industrial corporation.

    The Second Industrial Revolution started in the 1770s and stretched into the 1830s. That’s not a particularly astounding claim to make as it is the standard demarcation point for most historians of technology. Steam power and machinery powered by it (be they involved in mines, tectiles or what not) are at the heart of the event not the micro-economics or organizational structure of the particular firms associated with it (especially since such changes in organization structure would only come about on any large scale until the Third Industrial Revolution of the mid-19th century). Of course factories (as early as the 1720s if I recall from lectures), machine tools, etc. all preceded the 1770s.

    You would do well to consider, when you encounter a point you don’t immediately concur with, the possibility that it is you who isn’t grasping the extent of the issue.

    You would do well to consider that other people might know far more about a subject than you do.

    I suggest you come to Lowell, spend a few hours touring the National Park and reading up on the subject…

    Been there and done that. Last time I was there the Parks Department employees ended up listening to me and telling me that I knew more than they did. Of course I know more than they do. I’ve read far more about it than they have. But hey, I only took a course in graduate school on the Second Industrial revolution, what the hell do I know?

    Here are the classic questions on the Second Industrial Revolution:

    Why the 18th century?

    Why Britain and not France?

    Why steam power?

    Why the particular industries involved (namely and primarily mining, metallurgy and textiles)?

    No, or course not…

    Right. 🙂

  197. OK, Phil, but if they’re the Historians of Technology, they’ve got to have a mono-phonic synth. Deal?

    Oui, absolutement!

    I am a big, big fan of the mono synth. A band I used to be in in Cleveland, the guitar player had an old ARP mono synth that we used on a couple of songs. Great stuff. It was like being in The Cars. Only our singer . . . was a chick!!!

  198. She was also, in her day job, a high-school German teacher with a Masters in German Lit from American University. That led us to be able to cover “99 Luftballons” in German, plus we got to use the synth for it.

  199. I’m putting it up for a vote – is Hak’s last post worth reading?

  200. Nice dodge, Hak – when it’s pointed out that papermaking was neither unique to the Berkshires, nor did the region have a particular dominance in the trade…

    I never claimed that it was dominant or unique, so I don’t see why you are harping on that issue. Nice dodge by you though. Indeed, the reason I brought up the Berkshires was not claim they were unique but to show that Lowell wasn’t the starting ground by itself of the industrial revolution in America. My lord.

    And no, the development of their own newspapers and other social institutions did not alter the plan of the city…

    Their very behavior did. But hey, I’ll take the foremost historian of the Lowell mill girls over you any day.

    …that was to come with their replacement by immigrant labor, and the housing of that labor in private rental housing.

    The Lowell mill girls had long changed the pattern of living before the immigrants came. They continually challenged the rules under which they were supposed to live. This is why labor historians study them so much – because they are one of the first examples of organized labor in American history. This is common knowledge.

  201. Phil,

    Wee-ooo-wee-ooo-wee-ooo-weeeeeeeeeeeee…

    I played around with an old Yamaha in electronic music synthesis as an undergrad. It was a pretty cool lab – a monophonic Abbey Road era synth below a Moog next to a tricked out Mac – it was like an electro-pop museum.

    Of course, you’re far too dishonest to impersonate a monophonic synthesizer yourself.

    *chuckle*

  202. joe,

    Grow a backbone.

    gaius marius,

    actually, it’s rather that none of us are happy.

    If you are claiming that happiness was abounding in the time of the “Venerable Bede” then you are off your rocker. Read his laundry list of woe and sorrow some time.

  203. joe, the very last one will be well worth reading. Maybe the the Parisian rioters will do us a favor and destroy a fiber optic line.

    Yeah, I broke the taboo and I don’t care.

    Remember, joe, join us at grylliade’s site!

  204. “Their very behavior did.”

    “The Lowell mill girls had long changed the pattern of living before the immigrants came.”

    None of which has to do with the issue of the city’s plan. The “mill girls” were required to live within the housing provided for them by the manufacturing companies – housing constructed in conformity with the original city plan.

    Do you even know what city planning is?

  205. So your position is that Western society has been in decline for almost 800 years?

    to address the question using a different example, mr david — is it not fairly clear that the hellenic world which emerged from aegean post-minoan barbarism in the 9th c bc broke down in the peloponnesian war in the 5th c bc, with athens abdicating her moral leadership in the face of advancing spartanism? and that rome, while it won vast territory and made great technical and economic leaps as a spartan state, was dessicating from the inside out from the 3rd c bc onward?

    i think we’re too quick — due to our parallel condition — to accord greatness to technical societies without questioning the nature of greatness.

  206. “actually, it’s rather that none of us are happy.”

    Why is it that you think that everyone is unhappy? Or that everyone *was* happy?

    Maybe if you weren’t so negative all the time.

  207. Since we’re going for 500 posts, I’ll post this map in an effort to draw out Lonewolf, er, Lonewacko:

    http://www.migrationinformation.org/FB_maps/Mexico.pdf

  208. Ooh, grylliade’s site! I didn’t bother joining from work, in case it was IP-address based.

    Here’s hoping I don’t get “smacky’ed!”

  209. thoreau,

    As you make thinly veiled allusions to my statements all the time I realize that you continue to read them. I know you want me. 🙂

  210. joe,

    None of which has to do with the issue of the city’s plan.

    Sure it does. Take a gander sometime at the rules the Lowell girls were supposed to live by. Then compare it to the demands made by the Lowell girls. You’ll find that they were constantly bitching about nature of the regime that they were under and were able in many instances to change some of the more egregious rules. Also, read Dublin’s collection of Lowell girl letters. Their complaints about the regime and how it stifled their freedom, abused them, etc. were legion. Kind of funny how its me defending organized labor. Then again, in this instance these women were actually self-organizing. I mean my goodness, they held strikes, organized marches, etc. against the Lowell program, and they were able to see some reform of it.

  211. I’m generally happy, gaius – I have a smiley little family, I love my job, I have a house full of books. As John Prine said,

    “Blow up your TV
    Throw away your paper
    Move to the country
    Live on the farm

    Plant a little garden
    Eat a lot of peaches
    You can find Jesus
    On your own”

    Now, I haven’t found Christ behind my Couch, but I sure do grin a lot.

    Do I expect to be happy with my society and leaders? Not particularly, but those groups are only masses of individuals, and I don’t expect to be able to alter their minds to suit my desire. Maybe you’re right, and our civilization is falling in upon itself – but who gives a shit, gaius? Maybe in another hundred thousand years some people will get it right. 🙂

  212. Rich Ard,

    In the end the Earth will be consumed by the Sun. Hopefully we’ve gotten off this rock by that time.

  213. LOL!

    All the bitching about city planning Hak engages in, he doesn’t even know what the term refers to!

    They were all, like, doing stuff that the city founders didn’t PLAN on, so they were, like, messing up the CITY PLAN!

    Nighty night, son. Tomorrow, I’ll be too sober to care, but tonight, your ignorance is a real treat.

  214. Dammit, Joe, dammit, Thoreau. Both of you.

  215. joe,

    If you are going to engage me in conversation, then do so. If not, don’t do so. But pick one or the other and quite pussyfooting around about it. Shit, if I told someone I wasn’t going to to talk to them, about them, etc., again, I’d at least have the nuts to follow through on such a promise.

  216. And if we haven’t, Hakluyt, maybe somewhere else somebody (or whatever they’ll call themselves) will figure it out. Either way, I’ll be long dead and decomposed, and won’t be worrying too much about it.

    Also, I think that’s the first solid burn I’ve seen joe get on you. Way to go out with a bang, Mr. Small Municipality Planner.

  217. joe,

    The plan in the case of Lowell was more than just the lay out of the city, its physical structures, etc. and you should be well aware of that. Then again, the Lowell women also had a problem even with these things, as they housing itself was neither well heated nor was it designed to properly feed such large groups of women. I suppose my problem is that I know far more about the issue and have to keep on bringing you up to speed.

    Jennifer,

    Ha ha ha. 🙂

  218. Rich Ard,

    It wasn’t a burn (see my statement as to why it wasn’t above).

  219. Desperado, why don’t you come to your senses?
    You been out ridin’ fences for so long now
    Oh, you’re a hard one
    But I know that you got your reasons
    These things that are pleasin’ you
    Can hurt you somehow

    Desperado, why don’t you come to your senses?
    Come down from your fences, open the gate
    It may be rainin’, but there’s a rainbow above you
    You better let somebody love you
    (let sombody love you)
    You better let somebody love you
    before it’s too late

  220. Rich Ard,

    That joe thinks that how Lowell was planned included simply its physical layout is more a testament to his own ignorance than anything. A lot more went into it than that, indeed, it had to, because it was the planning of their social lives which was a means to get families to commit their female children in the first place.

  221. Hast du etwas Zeit f?r mich
    Dann singe ich ein Lied f?r dich
    Von 99 Luftballons
    Auf ihrem Weg zum Horizont
    Denkst du vielleicht g’rad an mich
    Singe ich ein Lied f?r dich
    Von 99 Luftballons
    Und das sowas von sowas kommt

    99 Luftballons
    Auf ihrem Weg zum Horizont
    Hielt man f?r Ufos aus dem All
    Darum schickte ein General
    ‘Ne Fliegerstaffel hinterher
    Alarm zu geben wenn’s so w?r
    Dabei war’n dort am Horizont
    Nur 99 Luftballons

    99 D?senflieger
    Jeder war ein grosser Krieger
    Hielten sich f?r Captain Kirk
    Das gab ein grosses Feuerwerk
    Die Nachbarn haben nichts gerafft
    Und f?hlten sich gleich angemacht
    Dabei schoss man am Horizont
    Auf 99 Luftballons

    99 Kriegsminister
    Streichholz und Benzinkanister
    Hielten sich f?r schlaue Leute
    Witterten schon fette Beute
    Riefen: Krieg und wollten Macht
    Man wer h?tte das gedacht
    Das es einmal so weit kommt
    Wegen 99 Luftballons

    Wegen 99 Luftballons

    99 Luftballons

    99 Jahre Krieg
    Liessen keinen Platz f?r Sieger
    Kriegsminister gibt’s nicht mehr
    Und auch keine D?senflieger
    Heute zieh ich meine Runden
    Seh’ die Welt in Tr?mmern liegen
    Hab’ ‘nen Luftballon gefunden
    Denk’ an dich und lass’ ihn fliegen

  222. Phil,

    I wonder how many other songs mention Captain Kirk?

  223. joe,

    BTW, when you use words like “patriarchal vision” its a pretty dead giveaway that you are discussing more than just the physical plan of Lowell.

  224. Anyway, I’m sure joe is fairly glad to get away with half of his skin in place. He was more than a tasty morsel on this occassion.

  225. SSSSSHHHHHHH!

    They’re playing Desperado!

  226. So anyway, that new site of Grylliade’s–very nice, it is. Nice nice nice. Well worth a thread dedicated to the discussion of it. Mmm-hmm.

  227. &ltwhisper>
    Stevo, you going to join us on grylliade’s site?
    </whisper>

  228. FREEEEEE BIIIIIIIIIRD!!!!

  229. It’s a fine site, Stevo, and would be made finer by your presence.

  230. Ken Shultz,

    Here’s a song just for you. :^)

    Sometimes it?s hard to be a woman
    Giving all your love to just one man
    And if you love him
    O be proud of him
    ?cause after all he?s just a man

    Stand by your man
    Give him two arms to cling to
    And something warm to come to
    When nights are cold and lonely
    Stand by your man
    And tell the world you love him
    Keep givin? all the love you can
    Baby, stand by your man

  231. *sign*

    I may end up using “Semiapies”, if I can’t get “Eric the .5b”. No doubt there will be endless confusion, but hey.

  232. For what it’s worth, joe, the only post I can find on a Google search on Hit and Run mentioning “the city of Fitchburg, Mass” was me trying to be a smartass. I had no idea you had some stalker threatening your job (either I missed it or it was before my time), but I apologize if it added to any anxiety you may have had regarding that wacko.

  233. Gaius Marius: You asked how many of us can really say that we’re happy. You asked this before, but I didn’t find the thred until it was dead already, so I’ll answer here: I am.

    Of course things could be better-and of course the government could be set up better. But I’m alive, and that’s enough for me. I’ll only be around for a brief while; so I’ll lean back and enjoy the ride.

    There’s a bright golden haze on the meadow,
    There’s a bright golden haze on the meadow.
    The corn is as high as an elephant’s eye,
    An’ it looks like it’s climbin’ clear up to the sky…

  234. joe:

    That was a thoroughly immature post in reply to the Anti-Joe.

    I loved it.

  235. I may end up using “Semiapies”, if I can’t get “Eric the .5b”. No doubt there will be endless confusion, but hey.

    I’m trying to figure that out, since I’ve registered at other phpBB boards with spaces in my name. I can’t for the life of me find a place in the options that either allows or disallows spaces. Same with the period. No idea what’s going on here. *sighs* Looks like I’ll be teaching myself SQL and PHP as I go. Not a bad way to learn.

  236. Everytime I read a post by Gaius I can’t help but think of “Debbie Downer” on SNL. Everyone gets depressed now and then, but geez Gaius, how do you drag yourself out of bed in the morning?

  237. As for Gaus’s question.

    I like my car, I like my house, I like the city I live in. I like my looks, I feel I serve an important purpose in life, and that I have a positive effect on most those around me.

    I have travelled the world far and wide, and I understand that I really won the lottery as far as which country to be from and of.

    I am not happy all the time, only idiots are. I enjoy the sadness, the anger and rage, the heartbreaks, and feelings of longing. I enjoy the full range of emotions.

    I guess I have been down and hungry before, and I recognize even when I am sad I know that it could be much worse and is worse for 99.9% of the population, and has been worse at all times in history previos to this.

    Not that we are as great as we could be, nor that we are advancing as fast as we should be.

    And regard to Gayuses criticisms of our culture, it is because of everything he argues against that we are headed the right direction at all. God bless self determination.

  238. Stevo, you going to join us on grylliade’s site?

    It’s a fine site, Stevo, and would be made finer by your presence.

    Thanks — I’m trying!

    I registered, but haven’t received the e-mail you’re supposed to get yet.

    I suspect it’s because the only e-mail address I currently have access to is through work…. and the corporate firewall is probably blocking the essential e-mail.

    So I’ll have to set up my new computer at home … after I get my home office set up … and then get my home Internet connection set up … which I can start on this weekend if I don’t have to work this weekend … might take a while. 🙁

  239. kwais,

    Well, you people are always arguing that I know many “obscure” historical and philosophical subjects…

  240. anyone here claim to be happy with their life? their society? their leadership? themselves?

    Good God, yes!

    Certainly, there are plenty of things that could be improved with my life and my self. But that’s reason for hope, not despair. If I didn’t have anywhere to grow I’d go nuts.

    I’m a little less happy with my society and a lot less happy with many of those who claim to be my leaders, but I also have a lot of room here to ignore and withdraw from what I don’t like. There is also some opportunity here to try to make improvements if I choose to expend my energy and thoughts doing so — if only by blathering away in a small portion of the blogosphere.

    And let’s not undervalue mere material progress. I problem have a lot more time to think about philosophy, culture and politics — if I choose — than my ancestors did, because I’m not distracted by worms or an abcessed tooth or the pox.

  241. I PROBABLY have a lot more time …

    (And speaking of material progress, I think the squirrel in the Reason server closet is faltering again…)

  242. Stevo Darkly,

    gaius marius is very much into romanticizing the past.

  243. Well, um, well, um, well, um…

    Plan can mean more than one thing.

    Ha ha ha! pwned!

    Hey, Ken, when you deal with city planners, you talk about the rules for the living arrangements of workers in housing owned by industrial corporations, right?

    *snicker*

  244. joe-

    Hangover today?

  245. joe, I must confess that I am confused by what you call city planning. Town planning in Massachusetts goes back to the 1630’s, does it not? And if you want to discuss the role of a industrial corporation in the planning and development of a town wouldn’t you have to start with Lynn?

    GinSlinger

  246. I’d love to stay and chat some more, but I’ve got to go to my temporary consulting gig.

    I’m working with a regional planning commission. We’re drawing up regulations about which church services will be required for the area’s residents, what the process will be for expelling those who engage in gossip, and what time everyone will be required to be in their sleeping quarters.

    Because that’s totally what city planners do. It’s right here in my APA guidebook…somewhere…hmm…

  247. joe,

    I loved your 8:23 post from yesterday. It came from the heart. It was passionate and real – much better than the intellectual snobbery displayed by many of the posters on H&R. I wish you great success on your new job. And shame on anyone who would threaten to rat you out. That is the most disgusting thing I have heard on this site.

    gaius,

    Yes, I am am usually happy. I believe in Aristotle’s philosophy that “happiness depends upon ourselves”. I am not completely satisfied, and I am quite apprehensive about the world that my kids will inherit. But fuck it! Every day above ground is a good one. We all need to stop taking ourselves so damn seriously and realize we are just specs of dust in a vast universe. Your personal degree of happiness will increase as your newborn grows up. Kids don’t know how fucked up the world is. This allows them to derive pleasure from the simplest activities. This cocoon of innocence is not available to us adults, but that doesn’t force us to wallow in the mire and to be miserable the remainder of our existence. Gaius Minimus will show you the way!

  248. As a semi-regular poster I feel I should say something just because I feel forgotten. Nobody here loves me. Or maybe my posts just plain suck.

    Do I lose any libertarian points because I’ve never read any Rand outside of a few random paragraphs here and there?

    OK, I’ll just needle joe a bit. (I think Lefty = joe, but it’s rather unimportant anyway.)

    joe, I’m glad you’ll be posting less frequently, not because I disagree with you often, in fact I think you add a lot to the conversations here but you tend to let your emotions get in the way of your points as your posts on a thread grow. Anyway, good luck in your new job and remember to err on the side of freedom.

  249. Joe,
    Thanks for having the courage to post here despite the cowardly threats. You have really good insights and deserve to be moving up in the world from what I can see here.

  250. A band I used to be in in Cleveland

    Phil,

    What was the name of the band?

    I know you want me. 🙂

    Hak and thoreau are so gay for each other. And there’s nothing wrong with that. Just admit it! 🙂

    I probably have a lot more time to think about philosophy, culture and politics — if I choose — than my ancestors did, because I’m not distracted by worms or an abcessed tooth or the pox.

    You’re not? That’s not what you told us at the Chicago Reasonoid gathering. 🙂

    Now that I’ve gotten my stupid jokes out of the way, I’ll say this: I can’t keep up with you people. This thread could take hours for me to read. Sadly, I’m actually resorting to stashing threads in my “Favorites” folder so that I can read them later. I may at some point soon revert to “lurker wisecracker” status. Not that anyone gives a shit, just thought I’d mention it. I just don’t have enough time in the workday to get through threads like this. And if I actually bothered to get internet access at home, I’d probably forfeit my whole social life (as small as it is) just to get through monster posts like this. I don’t have a point really, I’m just griping…

  251. “probably have a lot more time to think about philosophy, culture and politics — if I choose — than my ancestors did, because I’m not distracted by worms or an abcessed tooth or the pox.”

    “You’re not? That’s not what you told us at the Chicago Reasonoid gathering. :)”

    The worms, et al. are relatively under control. I just have a bit of scurvy and consumption to deal with now.

    Or maybe you’re referring to my back being sore because of “the trampoline incident” of this past May? Maybe I mentioned that in Chicago. That seems to have finally gone away, BTW.

    ” I may at some point soon revert to “lurker wisecracker” status.”

    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! You can’t abandon H&R to near silence! What of your public?

    You know, I’ve thought about posting less and going home earlier in the evening. But honestly, how important is a social life anyway? Whoever gained fame and fortune because of their social life, anyway? Besides Paris Hilton, I mean.

    Surely some reasonable compromise can be worked out. Work and social life, Week 1. Hit and Run, Week 2. Repeat.

  252. Hey, Ken, when you deal with city planners, you talk about the rules for the living arrangements of workers in housing owned by industrial corporations, right?

    Industrial is my bread and butter, and I can’t say that’s ever come up.

    I don’t think most people understand what planners do for a living–it’s more than just sitting around and talkin’ about zoning all day. …That’s typical of most professions I think–people think the only thing you do is whatever you do for them.

    Most developers don’t see planners as the problem although they may have problems with planning. City planners, rather, can be a developers best friend. Planners are the only thing between a developer and the masses. …and you don’t want your project approved or rejected by the masses. If the economy is showing any sign of health, the masses don’t want you building anything, ever.

    When you have a project with a zone change, for instance, and it’t adjacent to a residential development, a city planner takes your case almost like a public defender. …The planner isn’t part of your team–their first, last and only loyalty is to the city–but they will guide you where you need to go. They will show you the best way to get your project approved by the Planning Commission. …and, once that hurdle is crossed, how to get your project approved by the City Council.

    Planning can involve every aspect of a project. From getting the landscaping approved to taking architectural details into consideration to considering biological impacts, addressing engineering concerns, traffic impacts, the effects of your project on local schools, and so much, much more.

    As a developer, you would be foolish to attempt those waters without a good pilot. Good planners are hard to keep on city payrolls, and I suspect joe may someday come to the dark side. Developers will pay a premium for good former planners–as hired guns to get their projects through the process.

    Really, there’s no substitute for a good planner. After an investor–intuitional money or otherwise–checks off on your numbers, one of the first things they want to know is something about the city’s planning department. It’s a big deal.

    Sometimes I hear people talk about joe’s work as if what he did was something like what people do at the DMV. It isn’t.

  253. Hear hear, Ken – although I must add that the planners I’ve dealt with seem to pass on the shittiest property descriptions. I mean, can we get at least one paragraph break here and there?

  254. jf, that’s a load off my mind, actually. That one was actually pretty close – I used to work in Fitchburg. Talk about a – er – work in progress! But it’s coming along.

    Thanks, Ken. When I first volunteered in a planning office, I saw myself as on a noble crusade to protect the public from the evil developers.

    Screw that. Capital invested in construction is the lifeblood of a city. If you don’t have enough, you die. And there is simply no getting around the fact that the vast majority of that capital is going to come from profit seeking developers. I’ve spent much more time standing up to neighbors and promoting development over the course of my career than the opposite. It’s amazing how ideologues, determined to cast themselves as the heros standing up to the man, can be so willfully ignorant, just to maintain their preferred narratives.

    Russ D, Thanks. “Err on the side of freedom” is a good rule of thumb. I like to cast it as “tread lightly” or “do the least possible.” My profession’s had a history of overreaching, but we’re learning. The profession is one for gardeners, not builders – meaning that ultimately, it isn’t us who cause the blooms to open. We can just tend the beds, and as any gardener knows, that’s best done with a light touch in all but the most remarkable situations.

  255. Also, Ken, as I’m sure you can attest, profit seeking is not the only, or even the primary, motive of most developers.

    Rather than the greedy automatons their enemies (and their self-proclaimed cheerleaders) describe them as, I’ve found most of them to be the same type of legacy-minded community builders as planners. They don’t always know the best way to go about that, though.

  256. joe,

    Well, um, well, um, well, um…

    Plan can mean more than one thing.

    First of all, I never made any claims as to what planners do or do not do in this discussion. Then again, you’re very apt to claim all sorts of things of posters that they never wrote. Maybe if you took the time to sit down and think about what others are writing you wouldn’t get yourself involved in such erroneous claims.

    Second, only someone as intellectually dishonest as you are would state that is the meaning of my statement. Any historian worth his or her salt in this particular area knows exactly what I am talking about. Your problem is that your profession is so limited in intellectual outlook and design. When a historian hears about Lowell and an industrial plan is discussed what comes to mind is a holistic approach.

    Anyway, the fact remains that the industrial revolution in America did not start by itself in Lowell, which was your original claim. It is also true that the plan of the founders of Lowell never worked out as it was expected to, be it the physical structures present (e.g., the kitchen facilities were never adequate enough) or from the aspect of social control.

    Ken Shultz,

    Industrial is my bread and butter, and I can’t say that’s ever come up.

    When you discuss Lowell, and you talk about their industrial plan, guess what, its the whole deal. When you discuss other planned cities of the 19th or 20th centuries (see Ford’s towns for example) you don’t stop at how the roads were laid out or what the towns were meant to create for Ford’s plants. When I was doing my M.A. work on a planned city in Jamaica I wasn’t merely looking at how the planner (Sligo) was laying out the various buildings, I concerned myself with his entire plan and how people were expected to live under it.

    Whatever you your or joe does at the current time has very little to do with the study of Lowell girls.

  257. Ken Shultz,

    BTW, when you either read Dublin’s book or you visit the Lowell NPS, they discuss all these matters together and do not create such an artificial distinction as you and joe are trying to throw up here. Planned towns and cities in the 19th century were especially notorious for their paternalistic rules and those rules were part and parcel of the planning process because it was argued that they wouldn’t succeed without them (there was also a utopian flavor to such ramblings as well – a notion that they were bringing light to the downtrodden masses). That seems to still be the case today with planned towns, where part of the planning involves the behaviors of the individuals who move there.

  258. BTW, I find the fact that joe tried to navigate this discussion into what planners do and do not do to be rather hilarious. Don’t know much about a subject? Start talking about how your profession imagines itself instead!

  259. I just got caught up on the thread, and I miss all of this?

    Say it ain’t so, joe! You’re my favorite pinko. You have become, no lie, the model of the ‘reasonable lefty’ as I talk issues out with friends. I appreciate that you brought me such a position to consider.

  260. Jason Ligon,

    Yes, a “reasonable lefty” who self-describes himself as a troll? Heh. How precious.

  261. Phil,

    I did notice you rifling the historians of technology. I just chose to ignore it for the inane trolling that it was. Sometimes I am merciful. 🙂

  262. I wasn’t making any distinctions regarding your debate with joe. …I was just responding to the suggestion that not everybody understands what a planner does–and to the realization that he’s not going to be around so often anymore. …That sucks.

    …I know next to nothing of Lowell.

  263. Jason,

    Screw that. There’s no way I’m reviewing the entire world’s subdivision submittals.

    No, joe, World Town Planner Day is a world holiday to celebrate town planners, not a day to celebrate the world town planner. As the site I linked to states:

    Founded in 1949 by the late Professor Carlos Maria della Paolera of the University of Buenos Aires, WTPD is currently celebrated in about 30 countries on four continents as a way to promote awareness and support for community planning.

  264. Ken Shultz,

    …I know next to nothing of Lowell.

    Well, at least you are honest. 🙂

    Did you get my e-mails, BTW?

  265. There joe goes again, arguing against the World Town Planner Day in his head.

  266. Joe,
    I suggest you read the complete works of Carlos Maria della Paolera before embarrassing yourself further. (:

    Seriously, though, congratulations and good luck

  267. Yadda yadda yadda from Count Hakula. Sorry, twerp, I’m back on the wagon. In my inebriated state, my judgement was actually clouded enough to think it worthwhile to give you another chance at having an open and civil discussion. And, as always, you proved yourself unfit.

    Jason Ligon,

    Back atcha – you are the most honest, thoughtful, and reasonable righty I have had the opportunity to dispute with, and I am the better for it.

    Jason S, I know, I read the link. I was making a little joke. Nearly microscopic, I guess.

  268. “Did you get my e-mails, BTW?”

    *beep*

    Uh, hi. It’s me again. Hakluyt, remember? I, uh, I’ve left a couple of messages, but I’m sure your machine was working. Anyway, it’s too bad I didn’t get ahold of you before the White Stripes concert, but guess what? A guy at work gave me two tickets to “Rent!” They’re for next Thursday, so give me a call before then. Or an email – I gave you my address at the bar, I hope you still have it. Anyway, if I don’t hear from you by Tuesday, I’ll figure you didn’t get this. And I’ll…uh…give you another call. Or maybe just stop by. Anyway, my number is 6 -” *beep*

  269. *beep*

    Uh, hi, it’s me again. Got cut off there. Anyway, I was saying, in case you lost it, my number is 693-3937. So, give me a call. Or something.

    Oh, those “Rent” tickets are for the fourth row. I really got a good deal on them! From my friend at work. So. Anyway. Hope to hear from you soon. *dammit!* Um…yeah. Bye.

  270. I was making a little joke.

    Yeah, I figured I’d use it as an opportunity to make fun of Him of Many Names. I hope you don’t mind.

  271. joe,

    Sorry, twerp, I’m back on the wagon.

    Oh, I see, so you gained a little courage from being on the sauce. Sound about right.

    Like I wrote above, do what you say you are going to do and quit making excuses about not living up to that.

    …to think it worthwhile to give you another chance at having an open and civil discussion.

    Dude, you self-describe yourself as a troll. I mean really, the idea that you consistently engage in civil discourse (with me or anyone) or that we should expect such from you is laughable and should have knocked your irony meter off the charts.

    As to your other comments, you should stop drinking from that bottle of bitterness. It will eat you alive.

  272. joe,

    BTW, about the only person who could even remotely make a claim (based on their actions as a regular poster) as you have is thoreau. Which is why you and Jennifer’s actions re: this silly clique of yours are so hypocritical. I’d suggest that you police your own statements before you ever start worrying about mine or anyone else’s.

  273. Ken Shultz,

    Thanks for the reply. 🙂

  274. Dude, you self-describe yourself as a troll.

    Allow myself to introduce…myself.

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