Murder by Numbers
So, how many people were murdered in the New Orleans Superdome and Convention Center? According to this report from the Times-Picayune, the combined total might be one. Excerpt:
After five days managing near-riots, medical horrors and unspeakable living conditions inside the Superdome, Louisiana National Guard Col. Thomas Beron prepared to hand over the dead to representatives of the Federal Emergency Management Agency.
Following days of internationally reported killings, rapes and gang violence inside the Dome, the doctor from FEMA -- Beron doesn't remember his name -- came prepared for a grisly scene: He brought a refrigerated 18-wheeler and three doctors to process bodies.
"I've got a report of 200 bodies in the Dome," Beron recalls the doctor saying.
The real total was six, Beron said.
Of those, four died of natural causes, one overdosed and another jumped to his death in an apparent suicide, said Beron, who personally oversaw the turning over of bodies from a Dome freezer, where they lay atop melting bags of ice. State health department officials in charge of body recovery put the official death count at the Dome at 10, but Beron said the other four bodies were found in the street near the Dome, not inside it. Both sources said no one had been killed inside.
At the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center, just four bodies were recovered, despites reports of corpses piled inside the building. Only one of the dead appeared to have been slain, said health and law enforcement officials.
Whole thing here. My column about Katrina-related violence rumors here; four updates to it: 1, 2, 3, 4.
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And didn't weren't these rumors all spread through the mainstream media? You know, with all the responsible professionals and fact-checkers and such? I did read such reports in blogs, but I think they were all quoting MSM sources.
but joe found a journal on the kos site where someone's relative swore they saw murdered people in freezers? how can this be?
Papaya -- Yes indeedy, which is the subject of a follow-up column from moi.
I would like to take this opportunity to extend to all the major news organizations the deepest sympathies of the United Guild of Vultures.
We, too, are saddened to hear of the disappointing body count in Louisiana. While 1,000 dead is always a blessing, it is nonetheless heartbreaking that our shared hope for tens of thousands of corpses cannot be realized. Too few drowned; too few were murdered. Sad, yet true.
I can only say "Be strong!" Though we may have seen this dream dashed, we must always look to the future. Great disasters will come in time, and those of you in popular media, like those of us in carrion consumption, will eventually enjoy a marvellous feast of death!
President,
United Guild of Vultures
USA Chapter
Such anticappointment shall reverberate throughout the media, new and old. At least until the next disaster. I'm off to Peru.
Matt, can you get Reason to spring for an investigative piece on how the MSM got snookered, or deceived themselves, into buying the hysteria?
"but joe found a journal on the kos site where someone's relative swore they saw murdered people in freezers? how can this be?"
Actually, it was the N.O. Times-Picayune that reported the bodies in the freezer, which quoted as its source multiple National Guardsmen by name, dipshit. Excerpt available here: http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001054816
I get tired of being right about these things. People just don't act like animals when stressed yet we seem to have this broadly shared cultural idea that without the constant presence of authority people will turn on it each other. The real tragedy here is that the widespread reports of violence actively delayed relief and rescue operations.
I think the real problem here and in other cases of media failure is that journalist simply do not have the level of information about most events that they believe they do. They don't understand how most businesses work, they don't understand law enforcement or the media, the don't understand science etc. They have no better understanding of any particular facet of the modern world than you or I would have if tossed into the same circumstances.
When you combine this with the "get it first before you get it right" and the "if it bleeds it leads" mentalities you have a group of fundamentally ignorant people under time pressure to deliver a dramatic "story."
I don't think the traditional media is institutionally capable of dealing with the complexities of the modern world.
If you are into conspiracy theories you would have to say that obviously the government has quitely removed many of the bodies to hide what really happened. This way they can say "Look it wasn't that bad. We responded effectively. Hardly anyone was murdered."
I'm curious about the "mercy killings in the hospital" story that was picked up by a Brit paper and then reprinted in a S. African paper and an Australian paper. The fact that I've not seen it anywhere else leaves me somewhat skeptical.
'"but joe found a journal on the kos site where someone's relative swore they saw murdered people in freezers? how can this be?"
Actually, it was the N.O. Times-Picayune that reported the bodies in the freezer, which quoted as its source multiple National Guardsmen by name, dipshit.'
I also pointed out the weakness of the sourcing in that story, because I found it suspect. The Guardsman was not reporting what he saw, but what someone he couldn't identify told him she saw.
Not sure why you're pinning this on me... dipshit.
Could it be that so many people were fooled by their own prejudices? I know many people who think poor, scared, and yes, black people are inherently dangerous. I had to put up with many bigoted comments during the initial reports of looting and violence coming out of New Orleans. The bad part was, the evidence seemed to verify some of those comments. I was skeptical the whole time, as I'm sure many were, that the whole thing was being blown way out of proportion. Its sad that the MSM (whatever that is now) sensationalized so much of the purported atrocities going on in New Orleans during the floods. They are as much to blame for the false perception of things as those with bigoted minds thanks to their idealogical crusades and exacerbating rumors only feeding the flames of racial and class bigotry.
Its even more sad that people on both sides of the aisle used this event to further their own causes, instead of actually doing anything substantial to help those truly in need, of which there were many in this case. And now, we have both sides throwing all their weight into coming up with a solution for the "next time" this happens. Whether its more federal money for the welfare state or the militarization of disaster relief, I'm scared to see what comes out of this.
I believe the corpses were eaten, which would account for the low body count.
Shannon, good comment. Both forces - the familiar narrative and "if it leads it bleeds."
But I think you might misstate the exactly what the familiar narrative is: "without the constant presence of authority people will turn on it each other."
By saying this is about "people," it suggests that the viewing public would think this about itself. I'd say that the hook here had more to do with "those people" than "people."
There were also numerous reports of babies dying from dehydration at the Convention Center, and for all I know they are accurate. It is notable, however, that I've yet to see any grieving mothers interviewed. Perhaps I've just missed it, but given how Jefferson Parish President (and world-class gasbag) Broussard got his tear-streaked mug pasted everywhere, with his entirely- concocted tale of how the St. Rita nursing home residents met there grim fate, it would seem to me that such a mother's account would have received similar treatment.
"Could it be that so many people were fooled by their own prejudices? I know many people who think poor, scared, and yes, black people are inherently dangerous."
Yeah, that could be. Or, it could be that the bodycount-hungry media whores were just doing a little wishful thinking, turning rumors into cover stories.
"Corpse-eating" joke the funniest thing so far this week. Flawless deadpan. Still laughing. Nice one!
Evan, why would that be either/or? See Shannon Love's comment about how the sensationalism and the appeal to a familiar anxiety feed off each other.
Compare and contrast stories about rampaging thugs in the aftermaths of the catasthrophes in Lower Manhatten and the Superdome. And note how the actual casualty lists from said thugs are almost identical - were the media reports?
Since when is a thousand dead from a hurricane (mostly in NOLA) a low body count? Man, the depths of right wing cynicism and the lack of respect for the dead is astounding to me. It's embarrassing the extent to which the Administration's clear as day foul-up on Katrina gets spit back at with this ridiculous bile and conspiracy mongering against the MSM. Yes, there was lots of poor reporting of unsubstantiated rumors, the same thing happened on and after 9-11. I didn't hear you people crowing then. Just leave it alone.
Joe,
Didn't mean to imply that whatever it was had to be the one and only explanation.
Yeah, lower manhattan v. superdome. Ok. How about Manhattan v. The Greater New Orleans Metro Area, in terms of looting & crime. From what I've seen, there was almost no post-9/11 looting; contrast that with post-Katrina looting (I mean, "looting", not stealing food & water to survive) in LA. Now, surely, the circumstances in the surrounding areas were different, but, with all available law enforcement & first responder units at ground zero, this left a great opportunity for looting to take place---yet, it never materialized. Take it as you wish, but, you can't ignore that comparison and focus only on the casualty lists.
Yes, Evan, there clearly were situations of looting in New Orleans. Did you know there were also situations of looting after 9/11? Even some firefighters, which is to say FireHeroes, were caught. Do you have a point beyond "well, some of the stories wre true?"
But setting that aside, we now have real, honest to God, actual proof that fake stories ended up on the news in New Orleans, in a way that they didn't end up on the news after 9/11. Or the wildfires in the California hills a few years ago. Those would have been perfectly good fodder for "people turn into animals" stories. And there are always rumors flying around, that the press could pick on if they wanted to.
Compare and contrast stories about rampaging thugs in the aftermaths of the catasthrophes in Lower Manhatten and the Superdome. And note how the actual casualty lists from said thugs are almost identical - were the media reports?
Were the incidents themselves almost identical? WTC demolished: evacuation of survivors easily accomplished, local law enforcement and disaster reponse timely, no shortage of power, food, housing. N.O. demolished: complete opposite of everything above.
Surely there are some 'black' media outlets? Does anyone know how they covered the stories of the 'violence' in N.O.?
I wonder if the leftist blog community has developed some kind of aggregating software that scans the net for keywords and anything that might take any little bit of pressure off of Bush? It seems like in every one of these threads, there always seems to be the idiot [festus] who shows up and labels Reason as "right-wing", then goes on to try to shift whatever blame was heaped on whatever party right back onto Bush.
Not that I would waste one iota of my time defending Bush---he deserves to be tossed out on his ass for a laundry list of reasons---but it's a little suspicious that, every time anyone other than Bush or his cronies gets a bit of blame here, we get some uber-leftist troll in here accusing Reason and/or H&R commenters of being right-wing Bush apologists.
Grumman,
"Were the incidents themselves almost identical? WTC demolished: evacuation of survivors easily accomplished, local law enforcement and disaster reponse timely, no shortage of power, food, housing. N.O. demolished: complete opposite of everything above" This would suggest that the situation in the Superdome would be much more likely to result in mob violence, right? And yet, there was not more mob violence.
Yet the media reports made it look like there was. Which is to say, the media exaggerated and invented stories to the extent that a completely untrue image of the poor Superdome cohort emerged, based not on what actually happened, but on the circumstances. I think you just scored a point for my side, dude.
"Surely there are some 'black' media outlets? Does anyone know how they covered the stories of the 'violence' in N.O.?" Let's say for a moment that you found a black anchorbot who reported the story just like everyone else. What would that prove - that BET is just as willing to copy sensationalized stories without verification as every other media outlet?
But that always happens, from Columbine to 9|11, the initial numbers of dead and injured that get reported are always skewed high, often times ludicrously so.
I think it's a CYA situation. Reporter asks some authority figure who has been put in charge, or is a lackey of the people in charge of the tragedy, and they take a guess and spin the numbers high, probably in the hopes that they won't look woefully incompetent if they underguessed how many died after the fact.
This simply plays into what Shannon Love posted, which is really a spot-on assesment.
Some years ago I saw a documentary showing film footage of events and comparing what was recoreded versus what was reported. One case I remember was a fire in a stadium, reported as mass panic, when the film footage clearly showed people helping each other over fences. The MSM talks mostly to itself, reinforcing its stereotypes and biases, most of which are unconsiously held.
Did you know there were also situations of looting after 9/11? Even some firefighters, which is to say FireHeroes, were caught.
I didn't say there were zero instances of looting after 9/11, but that's a nice strawman. Why don't you do a numbers comparison, rather than "there was looting there, there was also looting here".
Do you have a point beyond "well, some of the stories wre true?"
My point was fairly obvious, and that wasn't it, Joe. You wanted to keep your comparison isolated to the Superdome, and I expanded it. My point is that, yes, completely removed from our presuppositions, there were differences between manhattanites & louisianites in the aftermath of a disaster.
"But setting that aside, we now have real, honest to God, actual proof that fake stories ended up on the news in New Orleans, in a way that they didn't end up on the news after 9/11. Or the wildfires in the California hills a few years ago. Those would have been perfectly good fodder for "people turn into animals" stories. And there are always rumors flying around, that the press could pick on if they wanted to."
Actually, I remember quite a few bullshit rumors in the news after 9/11. Not that I'm defending the media, either, I just think that, when criticizing media or response, people make race a bigger issue than it really is.
ps: I see that the promises of eternal movable type server benevolence were empty ones...
Did you know there were also situations of looting after 9/11? Even some firefighters, which is to say FireHeroes, were caught.
I didn't say there were zero instances of looting after 9/11, but that's a nice strawman. Why don't you do a numbers comparison, rather than "there was looting there, there was also looting here".
Do you have a point beyond "well, some of the stories wre true?"
My point was fairly obvious, and that wasn't it, Joe. You wanted to keep your comparison isolated to the Superdome, and I expanded it. My point is that, yes, completely removed from our presuppositions, there were differences between manhattanites & louisianites in the aftermath of a disaster.
"But setting that aside, we now have real, honest to God, actual proof that fake stories ended up on the news in New Orleans, in a way that they didn't end up on the news after 9/11. Or the wildfires in the California hills a few years ago. Those would have been perfectly good fodder for "people turn into animals" stories. And there are always rumors flying around, that the press could pick on if they wanted to."
Actually, I remember quite a few bullshit rumors in the news after 9/11. Not that I'm defending the media, either, I just think that, when criticizing media or response, people make race a bigger issue than it really is.
ps: I see that the promises of eternal movable type server benevolence were empty ones...
Yes, Evan, I did realize your obvious point - you couldn't make your case using the examples described, and change the subject. To a complete nonsequitor, btw - the existence of violence outside the Superdome is completely irrelevant to the issue of whether stories were invented about what went on inside the Superdome. And why? Because it's possible to make a case that race was a factor? Well, your comfort level with somebody's political spin doesn't change what actually happened.
"Actually, I remember quite a few bullshit rumors in the news after 9/11." Did any of them include 200 rampaging murders by people in Lower Manhatten? Did any of them even come close? You're trying to draw this equivalency, and it's not there.
"Could it be that so many people were fooled by their own prejudices? I know many people who think poor, scared, and yes, black people are inherently dangerous."
But note in the Picayune report that most of the rumors had their origins among the refugees themselves. The lesson is that large crowds of all types prone to panic and frightening rumors under stress. The fault in the media was to take "eyewitness" accounts as gospel, ignoring the hysteria that was inflating the fears of people who were already in a miserable situation.
Also remember - these stories were part of the ammunition that some high profile reporters used in confrontational, head-to-head, on-the-air interviews with fomer FEMA Director Brown on the Thursday and Friday after the storm. CNN's Paula Zahn and NPR's (I believe) Robert Siegel are the ones I directly heard. Granted, Brown was not competent, and going after him hard for his poor performance was valid, but the more lurid, salacious stories of mayhem and murder ratcheted up the dramatic the level and outrage for the reporters.
While there may not be the same racial issues at hand in 9/11 coverage. The big point is inflated body counts. Media sure seems to love corpses. The 200 murdered would be the 9/11 equivilent of when they had no numbers for the twin towers so they kept repeating the total occupancy of the building on MSM. There were numbers like 100,000 being tossed around on the day of the event. Also, in Columbine reporters showed clear signs of dissapointment when the actual numbers started to surface after their estimates that approached 50.
joe,
I don't think racism played a major role in the reporting.
First, the reporting fits the pattern of incompetent reporting in similar circumstances. If I had to guess, I would say that the major media would have been even more lurid if the trapped population had been largely white.
Second, some of the worst tales came from african-American sources such the NOLA police chief and that activist over at Huffington that spread the cannibalism story. If the genesis of the stories was racist stereotypes, then the African-American community is just as prey to them as anyone else.
It's Clintons Fault.
By saying this is about "people," it suggests that the viewing public would think this about itself. I'd say that the hook here had more to do with "those people" than "people."
I'd assume both, for a short list of variations on "those people". "Damn southern hicks" was likely a runner-up to "Damn blacks".
Second, some of the worst tales came from african-American sources such the NOLA police chief and that activist over at Huffington that spread the cannibalism story. If the genesis of the stories was racist stereotypes, then the African-American community is just as prey to them as anyone else.
Or perhaps certain politicians and activists, even black ones, are shamelessly willing to use disgusting stereotypes when doing so serves their own ends.
Not to be off-topic, but I sometimes wonder if the high body counts are a psychological defense mechanism. We tell ourselves, "Oh, God, there are going to be tens of thousands dead!" and when the lower numbers come out it makes us a little less terrified and despairing. The same thing happened on 9/11, in fact. The early reports said that there were this many thousands of people who worked in the buildings and how high the numbers were going to be. When the final report of under 3000 was released, it was almost a relief. And I say "almost" because 3000 is a horrible number, as is 1000 in the case of NO. I'm not actually trying to score any political points here. Just saying that I think sometimes we brace ourselves for the unthinkable so that the reality, when it's finally reported, hits with a reduced impact.
Shannon, "If I had to guess, I would say that the major media would have been even more lurid if the trapped population had been largely white." Can you think of any disasters that hit mostly-white communities that resulted in such lurid fables?
"Second, some of the worst tales came from african-American sources such the NOLA police chief and that activist over at Huffington that spread the cannibalism story." Rumors are always flying during a disaster. The issue is how much credence they are given by the press. In this case, the answer is "quite a bit." And yes, I find it completely plausible that "even liberal" media outlets, far from the scene and staffed by people who didn't exactly grow up in the hood, can fall victim to the same credulousness.
But no, I don't think some comic book villain in a white robe was twirling his mustache during a conference call with newspaper editors. You have to get over the idea that racism functions primarily through peronalized hostility to black people.
Eric, '"Damn southern hicks" was likely a runner-up to "Damn blacks".'
Really? Care to point me to any stories about rampaging hillbillies looting stores and raping little girls? I don't recall seeing any.
BTW, I believe "those people" qualified as "those people," rather than as "people," because they were poor and urban, just as much as because they were black.
Care to point me to any stories about rampaging hillbillies looting stores and raping little girls? I don't recall seeing any.
I didn't say there were media stories claiming that. I simply came across people saying exactly that.
I believe "those people" qualified as "those people," rather than as "people," because they were poor and urban, just as much as because they were black.
Er, why?
Incidentally, weren't people here denouncing as fanatical Bushites any suggestion that the violence and "hobbesianism" in New Orleans was overstated?
(Mr.? Ms.?) Love, I think you're wrong.
The big stories in the last, what, 20-30 years are the Watts riots and the Rodney King affair.
Our blacks down in the south are just too whipped to raise a voice, is the storyline now.
These reporters were waiting to raise a problem, and they did. Look, we're working on it.
Are you?
Eric, I don't know where you heard such stories. I don't recall seeing them anywhere.
"Incidentally, weren't people here denouncing as fanatical Bushites any suggestion that the violence and "hobbesianism" in New Orleans was overstated?" As I recall, there were people on both sides of the fence arguing both ways. Some people wanted to exaggerate the stories to make the government look bad for its tardy response, while others exaggerated them to make the people left behind look bad, so as to more easily blame them and reduce sympathy for their abandonment. Just as there were people who played down the stories to protect Bush from criticism, and people who played down the stories to defend the image of New Orleanians.
Eric, I don't know where you heard such stories. I don't recall seeing them anywhere.
Joe, repeating myself, "I didn't say there were media stories claiming that. I simply came across people saying exactly that." That is, people spreading rumors or reinterpreting the "news" that was coming out of NOLA.
You apparently haven't come across such people, just as I've never come across anyone who's expressed bigotry or prejudice regarding poor urbanites, regardless of race.
That happens.
No reference to the last A-side song (?) on Synchronicity by the Police?
now, "walking in your footsteps" is in my head.
must. channel. ROLLINS...
State health department officials in charge of body recovery put the official death count at the Dome at 10, but Beron said the other four bodies were found in the street near the Dome, not inside it.