Court: Turns Out There Is a Second Amendment

This just in:

The United States District Court for the Eastern District in Louisiana today sided with the National Rifle Association (NRA) and issued a restraining order to bar further gun confiscations from peaceable and law-abiding victims of Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans.

NRA press release here; link via Instapundit.

Comments

[Larry Horse]

Wayne LaPierre always struck me as a creepy guy.

[sage]

I think this counts as our Friday fun link.

[Akira MacKenzie]

Now, whatch as the Gonzales Justice Department screws their GOP/NRA backers by fighting this in higher court.

[dead_elvis]

OT H&R suggestion, sorta surprised it hasn't been posted:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050923/news_1n23china.html

What a brave, brave man.

[mediageek]

WOOHOO!

[alkali]

Query: Is this actually a Second Amendment decision? Presumably, The government can't go around stealing people's floral arrangements, either, and that's not because there's a right to bear carnations.

[wonko]

If you confiscate their guns how are they going to shoot at the rescue teams?!

[mediageek]

alkali, it's probably unlikely that the filed the suit in light of the Second Amendment. Cases that hinge on the Second Amendment generally get beaten like a redheaded stepchild by the courts.

The NRA, as far as I know, has never pursued a case on purely Second Amendment grounds.

[Florist Of Kelo]

My floral arrangements are blighted.

[andy]

about fucking time

[thoreau]

My hunch is that it was filed on due process grounds or something like that, but it's just a hunch.

Guns aren't cheap. Will confiscated guns be returned to their lawful owners?

[StocktonJ]

...and what actual penalties will the police face for directly violating the law ??

None !

There is no accountability when government police blatantly break the law.

If somebody robs a bank, do the courts issue a 'restraining order' directing that person NOT to rob banks anymore {??} --- No, the law-breaker is arrested & indicted.

------------

[mediageek]

Thoreau, supposedly the National Guard was enlisted to write down pertinent info during the confiscations, and it is claimed that they are indeed returning the guns to their rightful owners.

I'd be curious to know
A)What condition the guns are being returned in.
B)If there's any five-finger discounting going on.

On a personal note, the thought of some damnfool employee of the state putting his greasy palms all over my pricey hardware makes me positively bristle.

[bigbigslacker]

Isn't theft of a firearm a felony? Its my understanding that in many states you can use deadly force to prevent a felony (or maybe that's only a violent felony).

[Shelby]

A couple of weeks ago there was a fairly extended discussion of the confiscations at the Volokh Conspiracy. There's a Louisiana statute permitting at least some limitations on firearms in certain circumstances, but its procedures weren't followed. I don't know whether Second Amendment arguments were also used in this case.

[Seamus]

"There is no accountability when government police blatantly break the law."

Well, actually, you can bring a suit for damages against the individuals involved in a constitutional violation. See Bivens v. Six Unnamed Federal Narcotics Agents, 403 U.S. 388 (1971).)

[Henry]

New Orleans is int he 5th Circuit. A few years ago the 5th Circuit held the Second Amendment to be AN INDIVIDUAL RIGHT, which means if Louisiana's statute falls afoul of it, it's toast. The view of the 5th Cicuit is directly opposite of the Ninth Circuit, which ruled to the contrary a couple of years ago (the en banc decision refusing rehearing has Kozinsky's now famous dissent). I'll wait until I see the DC opinion, but this could be a HUGE deal if it gets to the "new" Supreme Court.

[mediageek]

Henry, I'd forgot about that one, but didn't the 5th Circuit also rule that in certain cases the government could still infringe on your rights?

In that case via an ex post facto prohibition for having a misdemeanor domestic violence conviction?

[Larry Horse]

Has the NRA not argued a case on pure 2nd Amendment grounds because they're afraid the Supreme Court might determine that the Amendment applies to state militias (ie the National Guard) instead iof individuals?

[mediageek]

Larry, in a word, yes.

[Rick Barton]

It's outrageous that there were gun confiscations from peaceable and law-abiding folks! The government people responsible should lose their jobs, at least. Jail time seems a more appropriate punishment.

[Derek]

"Isn't theft of a firearm a felony? Its my understanding that in many states you can use deadly force to prevent a felony (or maybe that's only a violent felony)."

Well, usually a person who commits a "standard" felony while in possession of a firearm is automatically upgraded to "violent felony" status (something, I should point out, that the NRA supported, because it makes sense).

Thus, the National Guard soldier, who confiscated the civilian's firearm while shouldering his M16-A2 machine-gun is, technically, committing a violent felony. 🙂

[...]

See Bivens v. Six Unnamed Federal Narcotics Agents, 403 U.S. 388 (1971).)

fucking creepy.

[BadAttitude]

Good!

What would possibly be the purpose of the right to bear arms if at a time when one needs them most (ie: while surrounded by looters, murderers & thugs) the authorities confiscate them?

Of course I'm sure some overtly paranoid liberal bastard will say "But what about those thugs with guns shooting at rescue workers..we need to confiscate all the guns"..waah waah..etc.. Bullshit..odds are those trigger happy thugs already have criminal records so let the feds legally confiscate THEIR guns per the laws..

ps: it shouldn't be hard to find the thugs either..just follow the boom boom of the gunshots...no need to go door to door harrassing law abiding citizens either..

Heck - just watching those people in NO make me think it's time to contemplate upgrading my own gun collection to include a good pump shotgun.

[tomWright]

The rule-makers always find a way to exempt themselves and their hordes from the laws they pass upon the prols. Either deliberatly, before the fact, or after the fact, when they realize their oversight.

When was the last time you heard of a cop on trial for raiding the wrong house in a drug raid that ended up with an innocent person injured, shot or killed?

A few guns go missing? What do they care? It's not like someone IMPORTANT was inconvenienced or something.

[gunner]

Read the release carefully and know that the NRA is a selfish group.

The suit was filed by TWO groups. Yet the NRA's news release did not mention the SAF at all. If you go to the SAF website their release gives credit to both.

The NRA is trying to hog the limelight like always.

[parse]

Bad Attitude asks, What would possibly be the purpose of the right to bear arms if at a time when one needs them most (ie: while surrounded by looters, murderers & thugs) the authorities confiscate them?

One possible answer: an alternative purpose of the right to bear arms might be to facilitate the existence of a well regulated Militia, just like it says in the second amendment.

I'm not arguing against the right of individuals to own firearms, just pointing out that the Constitutional rationale for specifically enumerating that right is not that of personal safety in the face of looters, murderers and thugs.

[Hakluyt]

The Second Amendment Foundation (SAF) has a slightly more detailed press release: http://www.saf.org/viewpr.asp?id=162

[Hakluyt]

I'm sure the order by the District Court is fairly cryptic as to why it made its decisions; emergency injunctions like this aren't generally very lengthy as far as I know. I might contact the SAF and see if they'll send me their brief.

[poco]

Woohoo! USA! USA! (honk honk)

As a Californian, it was strange to go to Arizona a couple of months ago and see a guy at the BK with a sidearm in his waistband where other people clip on their cell phones. (Strange as in "novel", not "sinister".)

[BadAttitude]

Good point Parse - I take it you are suggesting a "strict constructionism" method of interpretating the 2nd amendment perhaps?

I too am all for interpreting the constitution as written - however even Scalia & Thomas who are self acknowledged "originalists" would probably broaden thay interpretation to include the right to self defense..at least that is my opinion.

Of course this issue has been argued many times before the courts and the general consensus seems to support the right to bear arms for self defence purposes - ever heard of a Concealed Carry Permit - they're legal in most states you know..

Perhaps Jefferson said it best:

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms. . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." -- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book, 1774-1776, quoting from On Crimes and Punishment, by criminologist Cesare Beccaria, 1764

I don't see the word militia even mentioned here..

[parse]

Bad Attitude--I'm not suggesting a strict constructionism reading of the second amendment. My only point was the much narrower one I originally made.

[thoreau]

OK, I just had an uber-libertarian moment:

Today Mr. Nice Guy and I went to the range again. I shot a Sig P229 again, and he shot a revolver. He's decent with the revolver, me not so much. I'm decent with the semi-auto, him not so much. Anyway, I get home, and I discover a shell casing in my shirt pocket. Damn do those things fly out! Let this be a lesson to those who don't think they need goggles.

kwais tried to talk me into a Glock, but I'm better with the Sig than the Glock. I'll try a Glock again, and maybe one or two others, but then I think I'll be ready to make a buying decision.

At some point I would like to get a revolver because I think my wife would be more comfortable with it. (And because revolvers look cool.) And I would also like a shotgun, in case something bad should happen and we have to defend ourselves from looters. But for now, I am leaning toward the Sig. I just get a good feeling from it.

[Jemez Hobbit]

Thoreau...

.. I personally have a Sig 228 which is the LEO version of the 229 .. my mantra is to find a gun that fits you well and shoot it often.. you'll find that you get pretty good with it in a short time ..

.. for the revolver I bought my wife the Ruger GP-100 in .357 Magnum... you can shoot .38 Special in it for target practice ..

.. the best deal going in shotguns is the Mossberg 500 Combo .. long barrel for hunting, 18.5 inch barrel for personal defense .. about $200 on sale ..

.. my $0.02

.. Hobbit

[BadAttitude]

Thoreau,

I had a Sig P232 a while back. While the gun was well made and felt great in my hand it unfortunately had a tendency to stovepipe so I had to sell it.

I now have a 1911 Colt Gold Cup Trophy...I added a set of very nice Ivory Grips (grandfathered) as well. I use that pistol on our practice range and it is very precise.

Since I live alone I keep my Gold Cup "cocked & locked" within easy reach in my bedroom..ok, call me paranoid I guess..

I also have a Concealed Carry permit and when I travel I often carry either an NAA Guardian 32 or a Kel-Tec P3AT in my glovebox.

My other pistols are a lightweight Smith & Wesson 442 revolver and a custom Beratta Jetfire..that one I use when I camp in case a nasty rat or poisonious snake can't take a hint.

Best of Luck

[thoreau]

Does anybody here have an opinion on used guns? A local dealer out here sells "certified pre-owned" Sigs.

[wayne]

"Does anybody here have an opinion on used guns? A local dealer out here sells "certified pre-owned" Sigs."

I see no reason to avoid used guns. I bought a used Glock 17 about 10 years ago and it shoots like a new gun today. Any good quality gun is probably good for at least 10,000 rounds through it.

I don't like gimicky terms like "certified", they typically add to the price without adding value. Check out the internet, Auctionarms I think does just what its name implies.

[mediageek]

Thoreau, unlike most consumer goods that have built-in obsolescence, guns do not.

Most guns will need some regular maintenance and parts replacement, but that generally doesn't happen until it's had at least several thousand rounds put through it.

I highly recommend buying used guns.

Eternal optimist and all around pain-in-the-ass to the California political machine, Jim March, has written an excellent essay on evaluating a used revolver:
Revolver Check Out: How to tell if a particular specimen is any good

Unfortunately, due to different operating systems and models, there's not really any one method for checking out autoloaders.
Usually I'll cycle the slide a couple of times to see if it functions, try the mag catch to see if it will eject magazines properly. Dry fire the gun a couple of times to test the trigger pull, then engage the safety and test the trigger again. If it's a model I'm familiar with, I'll break it down, pull the barrel out and shine an LED keychain light through it to check the rifiling for any scratches and pitting, as well as to see how worn the rifling is.

Things that are red flags:
1) They won't allow the gun to be field stripped.
2) The guy who's selling it says anything along the lines of "Well, I did some work on XYZ to try to improve ABC." Unless the person is a gunsmith who you know and trust either by reputation or personally, walk away.

For the most part, though, used guns are just as good as brand new ones.

[kwais]

Dr T,
One of my guns is a used 1911 style Kimber, it is a great gun. I also have to second Mediageeks recomendations.

If you like the Sig, and you shoot well with it, by all means get it. The more honest Americans own guns the better.

The Glock is superior technology, but I'm glad you are getting a gun, and maybe up to three guns.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Yeah, I'm definitely gravitating more towards revolvers. Right now I'm thinking about owning a .38/.357 along with a .22 revolver for target-practice. I'm curious what the gallery thinks of revolver vs. semi-autos.

Also, any recommendations as far as storage? The gun range sells a one-gun "thumb print" type safe, but I'm wondering if it is truly practical. I live by myself.

[Isaac Bartram]

Right now I'm thinking about owning a .38/.357 along with a .22 revolver for target-practice.

I second the Ruger GP-100 reccomendation above. Ruger also make an excellent 22.

I am of the opinion that if you have a gun you like to shoot you will be motivated to practice. And we know what practice does.

There is plenty of time to get good instruction and perhaps break bad habits. We all have them. The important thing is to enjoy and not make a chore of it.

That said I am more into hunting and clays. So I'm not your best handgun man.

But I still say practice, practice, practice. And if you don't enjoy it you won't practice.

[Jason Ligon]

DrT:

Fair warning on the used Sig. They vastly improved their manufacturing process several years ago, making three notable improvements:

1) There is a pin in the slide that retains the hammer, I believe. In the old design, this pin was prone to breaking. It is an easy fix, but very unpleasant if it happens at the wrong time.

2) The innards of the old slide used to be machined separately and attached to the slide later. The new process forms the entire slide out of a single block of steel. This is a much sturdier design.

3) Older Sigs notoriously have bad finishes on the slide. They used to use standard steel coated with a not so great finish, whereas now all Sig slides are constructed out of stainless steel, even the black ones.

When buying a Sig, you want to be sure you are getting a newer one. Even the old Sigs are very good guns, but the newer design is that much better.

Last note on the Sig: it is very awkward to use in your left hand. Depending on how much you intend to train with it, that can be significantly disturbing.

Really last note on the Sig: some people have trouble getting the slide to lock back when the gun is empty because Sig made the slide release lever too easy to access. I'm not kidding.

Overall, Sig is one of the best manufactured, most reliable handguns made. Period. Only downsides: It is lefty unfriendly, and the controls can get in the way for some shooters.

[Stupendousman]

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

A point I never hear discussed (although maybe it's been decided I'm ignorant of the fact) is the grammar used in the bill of rights.

Like other amendments are there multiple rights being outlined? The right to a militia and the right to bear arms? If not are multiple rights discussed in the other amendments dependent on each other?

Ex.
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

So cruel and unusual punishment is only wrong if it is accompanied by excessive bail?

[mediageek]

I'm curious what the gallery thinks of revolver vs. semi-autos.

My preference is for semi-autos. Heck, the only revolver I own is a semi-auto.

That said, I certainly wouldn't feel unarmed with a revolver, and know several serious shooters who love their wheelguns.

Also, any recommendations as far as storage?

Buy more than you think you need.

The gun range sells a one-gun "thumb print" type safe, but I'm wondering if it is truly practical. I live by myself.

Do you know the brand name? Consider doing a search on the web to see if there are any reviews available.

The gun range sells a one-gun "thumb print" type safe, but I'm wondering if it is truly practical. I live by myself.

[mediageek]

Stupendousman, ask and ye shall receive.

The Unabridged 2nd Amendment by J. Neil Schulman.

[Jason Ligon]

Mr. Nice Guy:

Specifics as to why I am not a revolver fan:

1) For practical purposes, most shooters should consider the revolver a "six and done" kind of tool. Reloading under duress or while on the move is extremely difficult. That is a HUGE disadvantage to a semi auto, that starts with 13-15 rounds and allows you to reload with even a small amount of training under duress in 3 secs or so.

2) The point blank engagement is not a good place for a revolver. If you are close enough for someone to grab the weapon, you stand a very good chance of the gun not firing. It takes almost no pressure to prevent the cylinder from rotating. The same grab on a semi will allow you to shoot one, clear a jam maybe, and have more ready to go.

3) It is very hard to shoot a revolver fast. Yes people can do it. They train a LOT, and, in my eyes, are examples of success in spite of the tool. Bear in mind that you are not really going to cock the hammer in an engagement, so you are dealing with the whole double action trigger pull every time.

4) Modern semi autos have accessories available, such as detachable light systems, that make them very handy as 'nightstand'. Revolvers, not so much.

I would think pretty hard before getting a revlover as a primary defense tool. A no frills semi like a Glock or Springfield XD that has the same trigger pull every time is a good starter gun. A final note would be, and don't take this the wrong way, you have to be careful about what feels intuitive to you before you've trained enough to have a feel for what works and when. Shooting to put rounds into the X ring of a target on your own time may lead you to certain conclusions about what works, but trying to put three rounds into the center of a human shaped target as fast as you can may incline you to entirely different habits.

[thoreau]

Jason-

So, you're saying that if I get a used Sig it should be one that isn't more than a few years old. Do you know the cut-off date?

[thoreau]

Jason-

So, you're saying that if I get a used Sig it should be one that isn't more than a few years old. Do you know the cut-off date?

[Stupendousman]

Mediageek- thanks.

Unfortunately, I never hear this type discussion at all. I live in Humboldt Park, Chicago and I would love to be able to carry my gun- of course I'd be jailed immediately. The gang members have no such concerns. I've personally been in the middle of a gun battle on a busy street (Augusta and California)for those of you who know Chicago and my car has been shot up. Those harsh gun laws really work! Thanks mayor Daley.

[Jason Ligon]

thoreau:

Nothing is ever easy. Here's how it works:

If you are looking for something the size of a P228/P229, get the P229 (be sure to specify 9mm, as many people think this is a .40 cal only). It was the first model in Sig's line up to use the new process and materials. You will find used P228s and they are all the old design.

If you are looking for the larger P226 ("full sized 9mm"), things aren't that easy. What I would suggest is if you can see the actual weapon, you will see two tell tale marks that are easy for me to describe:

1) Hold the gun sideways. About 1.5" from the hammer on the slide, there is a hole with a pin in it. If you can look through that hole and see daylight, you have an old design. The new pin is solid while the old retaining pin is a hollow tube.

2) Somewhere on the slide, it should say "Stainless Steel" on the newer designs.

These two identifiers will work for all old vs new manufacturing questions on all sig models.

[mediageek]

Shooting to put rounds into the X ring of a target on your own time may lead you to certain conclusions about what works, but trying to put three rounds into the center of a human shaped target as fast as you can may incline you to entirely different habits.

I had a very sobering illustration of exactly this a few weeks ago when I stepped out of my Bullseye Shooting ways and attended a big time Three Gun competition in New Mexico. Holy cats.

[Larry A]

On the topic:

• It's not just a Second Amendment issue. The Louisiana Constitution (like 43 other state constitutions) also has a right to keep and bear arms provision.
• In order to have a militia, IOW the ability to call up citizens in case of emergency, you must have an armed citizenry. We are the militia.

On the discussion:

• The revolver/semiauto handgun debate has been continuous for almost a hundred years. I've been teaching people to shoot both for the last twenty-five years. That ought to indicate that there's no "right" answer. In fact both have their advantages.
  Double action revolvers:
  • Because the cartridge doesn't operate the action revolvers will shoot a greater variety of ammunition than semiautos. A .357 magnum will handle .357s, .38 special and plus-p and plus-p-plus, snakeshot loads, hollowpoints, wadcutters, etc.
  • Revolvers are easier to understand and have fewer controls to learn. However newer semiauto designs like the Glock are closing the gap.
  • Revlolvers are faster to reload with individual cartridges, or to partially reload.

Semiautos

• Generally hold more cartridges.
• Are faster to reload if you have another loaded magazine.
• For the same caliber have a flatter profile, so are marginally easier to conceal.

My recommendation is to try both and see which you like better.

The Sig is a good gun, but I personally wouldn't get one. It really bothers me to have the first shot be a long double-action pull, and subsequent shots be short single-action pulls. If I was shopping for a semiauto, I would consider:

• Consistent trigger pull, whether:
  • A short single action like the Colt 1911, which has the disadvantage that you must release a safety before you shoot.
  • An intermediate half-cocked trigger pull like the Glock, Springfield XD, or ParaOrdnance LDA.

• Military caliber, either 9mm or .45 ACP. Ammunition is far more popular, meaning it's widely available, less expensive, and made in a greater variety of loads. The .40 S&W round is almost as good since a lot of law enforcement folks use it.
• Synthetic finish like the Glock or Springfield XD, or stainless steel. (I'm one of those who can't wear copper, etc.)
• At least an 8 round magazine.
• Not a light-weight version. The lighter a gun is the more it kicks.

Magazines:

• If you purchase a semiauto get at least one spare magazine.
• If you're going to keep it loaded, get a spare set and rotate.
• Avoid cheap magazines.
• If your handgun normally holds more than ten cartridges be aware that, because of the recent ban, there are lots of 10-round magazines on sale.