The Virtue of Vice

A strip club reopens in New Orleans:

Only a handful of restaurants and bars in the Quarter have reopened in recent days, serving food and drinks -- usually without charge -- to rescue workers and military who stream through the mostly empty streets. The Deja Vu waived its cover charge, drinks were selling for $3 and a private dance was available for just $1.

For Deja Vu manager Brent Ardeneaux, reopening was a public service.

Comments

[avoice]

$1 for a private dance. Woo hoo.

[Solitudinarian]

THIS is why New Orleans must be rebuilt...

[Jennifer]

A dollar for a table dance? How the hell are the dancers supposed to pay their bills with THAT? Is the manager giving them extra money to cover the shortfall?

[Dakota]

Will they accept FEMA debit cards?

[Jennifer]

Hmmph. The manager is making the dancers work practically for free, and HE takes credit for being some great humanitarian?

[Jennifer]

Hmmph. The manager is making the dancers work practically for free, and HE takes credit for being some great humanitarian?

[Baylen]

The manager is making the dancers work practically for free...

How does he make them work? Does he hold a gun to their head? Or do they work voluntarily?

[Grummun]

Can someone explain the economics of strip joints? Do the dancers keep everything they collect in tips and for table/couch dances? Does the house pay them a hourly rate? Where does the house make its money, from the cover and the blindingly expensive drinks?

[Jennifer]

Baylen--

Since I've never bought the official libertarian line of "Oh, hell, worker protection isn't needed because you can go out and get another job any old time you feel like it," I'm quite sure the manager said something along the lines of "If you want to continue working here when things pick up, you WILL give one-dollar table dances now."

I wonder how much profit the manager is making on those three-dollar drinks?

[Solitudinarian]

I'm guessing from the blindingly expensive drinks.

Not that I would know...

[Jennifer]

Grummun--

It all varies depending on the club and the area. Some pay the dancers and let them keep all tips, some pay nothing but let the dancers keep all tips, some pay nothing and CHARGE the dancers to work there.

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

I'm quite sure the manager said something along the lines of "If you want to continue working here when things pick up, you WILL give one-dollar table dances now."

And you know this how? Are you claiming some enhanced mental powers based on advances in genetics?

[Jon h]

It's $2 for a dance if the girl has teeth.

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

Your attitude strikes me as being especially elitist and paternalistic. Maybe you ought to ask the strippers before you start telling them how to run their lives.

[Jennifer]

No, Hakluyt, I'm basing that on nearly a decade's experience working in strip clubs and dealing with managers.

That's the serious answer. The snarky answer is: I know that the same way YOU know Joe drives a limousine rather than a Civic.

[Hakluyt]

Oh, I'm Jennifer. I know everthing about your life without ever having asked you a question. Just listen to me, I am the font of all knowledge.

So, when do you come out with your $19.95 self-help video?

[Phil]

I think Jean Bart should get some experience working in a strip club and reading about how they work before he embarrasses himself further.

Ha! Beat you, thoreau!

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

No, Hakluyt, I'm basing that on nearly a decade's experience working in strip clubs and dealing with managers.

Yet, despite your oppression, you were in the business ten years? Your complaint strikes as the similar over the top gripes made by wait staff at restaurants (which I have a lot of experience with).

[Jennifer]

Yet, despite your oppression, you were in the business ten years?

Nobody asked me to drop my table-dance prices from twenty dollars down to one.

[mediageek]

Hak, given that Jennifer evidently has firsthand experience in the stripclub biz, I'd have to say that she's probably more of an authority on the topic than any of the rest of us.

[fyodor]

Jennifer,

It's occurred to me that your position (as I understand it) that because managers always have more "power" than their workers that their instructions to workers constitute coercion is akin to Andrea Dworkin's claim that all heterosexual sex is rape because men always have more power than women. While I would agree that workers' economic and emotional involvement in employment decisions likely exceeds that of managers' more consistently than the same could be said of women versus men in relationships, I otherwise see no difference between your position and Dworkin's.

Whatcha think of that? 🙂

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

Nobody asked me to drop my table-dance prices from twenty dollars down to one.

Did you ever live in an area smashed by a Cat 5 hurricane?

[rdkraus]

Wherein Jennifer endorses gouging poor NO residents who have lost everything in the big one (not to mention volunteer rescuers). Where is your compassion for those poor souls?

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

The employer is trying to entice people into an area smashed by a hurricane with a very limited potential for clientele. The idea that they'd start charging $20 lap dances off the top (which seems to be what you would expect in such a situation) is ludicrous on its face.

[Jennifer]

managers always have more "power" than their workers that their instructions to workers constitute coercion is akin to Andrea Dworkin's claim that all heterosexual sex is rape because men always have more power than women.

Akin how?

[Solitudinarian]

Did you ever live in an area smashed by a Cat 5 hurricane?

It could very well be that the strippers of the Crescent City have voluntarily decided to give the rescue workers and military a break by charging only a dollar, but it strikes Jennifer as being highly unlikely. Considering her experience, it might be worthwhile to take another look at the situation.

[Jennifer]

Hak-

The dancers have bills to pay too, not to mention having to rebuild their lives somehow. All of this costs money. If the dancers want to give $1 table dances, more power to them. My main complaint is that the MANAGER is the one getting credit for being some great humanitarian here. It's like the bad joke about the boss who gets a huge bonus for making his WORKERS work 80-hour weeks.

[thoreau]

Phil-

At the very least he should go visit a strip club before he embarasses himself any further.

Basically, Jennifer has said that it's pretty shitty for the owner to expect the girls to work for such low wages. Not knowing about the working conditions, I defer to her judgement about what constitutes a crappy boss. The only thing I can speculate on behalf of the boss is that this is a necessary measure to get back in business, so that everybody can make more money in the long term. I don't know how he treats them when business is good, and I don't know if he pays them anything on top of the $1 per dance. And since I don't know any of this, I am willing to bet that Jennifer's instincts are probably right, since she knows more than me about how the business works.

Jean Bart, maybe you can explain to me why my finite element simulations are producing weird results near the boundaries. You know so much about other people's occupations, maybe you have insight into my problems as well.

[Hakluyt]

rdkraus,

Well, her statement is premised on the idea that their option is either stripping or the street, which is silly. All sorts of housing, etc. is available to the victims of the hurricane.

[thoreau]

BTW, one can say that a person is a crappy boss while still acknowledging his legal right to be one and acknowledging the right of consumers to decide whether to patronize him, yadda yadda yadda.

Could one of our lawyers draft a disclaimer that we can tack onto posts, immunizing us against charges of leftism when we criticize an employer?

[Phil]

Ah, despite my general distaste for the thrust (ha ha) of Dworkin's political/gender arguments, I'm fairly sure that she never really claimed any such thing, and that that's a myth that's grown out of misreadings of her arguments. See here for extended discussion.

It also strikes me that there's a nontrivial difference between what Jennifer is noting -- that the dancers are being asked to essentially give up their means of support while the owner is giving up very little -- and Jean Bart's mischaracterization that she's claiming some sort of oppression. Not that I expect him to be any less of a dick about it, but still.

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

They are handing out $2,000-$8,000 FEMA checks all along the Gulf Coast.

My main complaint is that the MANAGER is the one getting credit for being some great humanitarian here.

That wasn't your main complaint earlier.

[Phil]

Ah, despite my general distaste for the thrust (ha ha) of Dworkin's political/gender arguments, I'm fairly sure that she never really claimed any such thing, and that that's a myth that's grown out of misreadings of her arguments. See here for extended discussion.

It also strikes me that there's a nontrivial difference between what Jennifer is noting -- that the dancers are being asked to essentially give up their means of support while the owner is giving up very little -- and Jean Bart's mischaracterization that she's claiming some sort of oppression. Not that I expect him to be any less of a dick about it, but still.

[Jennifer]

Well, her statement is premised on the idea that their option is either stripping or the street, which is silly. All sorts of housing, etc. is available to the victims of the hurricane.

Hak, YOUR premises are bouncing around more than the dancers' boobs today. I complain about the dancers making low money, YOU claim I said I was oppressed. And now you imply that dancers should really be happy about a new option: work for coolie wages, or just take it easy and go live in a shelter for awhile.

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

They are handing out $2,000-$8,000 FEMA checks all along the Gulf Coast.

My main complaint is that the MANAGER is the one getting credit for being some great humanitarian here.

That wasn't your main complaint earlier.

[fyodor]

Akin how?

When person A has more "power" than person B in a consensual agreement, it really is not consensual but rather coercive.

And in fact, while I haven't read Dworkin, I assume her analysis was based on the notion that women are less economically enabled than men, such that women may very well feel an economic need to fuck men.

While this analysis is outdated in terms of its view of women's ecomonic circumstances, it otherwise seems just like your analysis that if someone faces a more difficulat set of circumstances than the person with whom they are entering an agreement, then the agreement (ie, employment) is tantamount to coercion.

And BTW, when we libertoids say workers can just quit, the point is not (not always, anyway) that it's some sort of easy decision for the worker. The point is that the workers has a choice that does not constitute a violation of his or her rights. It's not to say that it's an easy or simple decision. And even if a worker feels that he or she cannot quit for fear of the consequences, those consequences would not be any worse than if he or she did not have the employment in the first place. It seems absurd to say that after a manager hires a worker that the manager now has an obligation to the worker's well-being that didn't exist before the hiring.

But I'm rambling. Hopefully you see the point of my comparison to Dworkin. Either "unequal" power arrangements are necessarily and inherently coercive agreements or they're not. Which is it?

[Jennifer]

Either "unequal" power arrangements are necessarily and inherently coercive agreements or they're not. Which is it?

It is: unequal power arrangements CAN lead to coercion, not that they necessarily will. My own boss, for example, is a dream to work for; if all employers were like him there'd be no need for unions or worker protection laws. However, my ability to make a living is directly tied to him, so if he decided to become a jackass I'd be in trouble.

And I, unlike the New Orleans dancers, haven't even had my home and possessions swept away or destroyed by a hurricane.

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

Your own language shows that is more than just an issue of "low wages" to you; you're implying an oppressive power relationship here (I expect such from lit critters):

...I'm quite sure the manager said something along the lines of "If you want to continue working here when things pick up, you WILL give one-dollar table dances now."

Phil,

Maybe you ought to read all of Jennifer's statements, instead of just the first two.

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

Your own language shows that is more than just an issue of "low wages" to you; you're implying an oppressive power relationship here (I expect such from lit critters):

...I'm quite sure the manager said something along the lines of "If you want to continue working here when things pick up, you WILL give one-dollar table dances now."

Phil,

Maybe you ought to read all of Jennifer's statements, instead of just the first two.

[Jennifer]

Your own language shows that is more than just an issue of "low wages" to you; you're implying an oppressive power relationship here (I expect such from lit critters):

So tell me, Hak--why do YOU assume that I must be entirely wrong? (I expect such from mind-readers who don't even know whether or not they're French.)

[poco]

Some pay the dancers and let them keep all tips, some pay nothing but let the dancers keep all tips, some pay nothing and CHARGE the dancers to work there.

Jennifer, how many different clubs did you work at? Did you experience each of these types of managers? I imagine you also heard many bad-boss locker room horror stories from the other girls. Anyone ever try to unionize? (Don't mean to sound as if I'm challenging or interrogating you -- just curious.)

[Jennifer]

Your own language shows that is more than just an issue of "low wages" to you; you're implying an oppressive power relationship here (I expect such from lit critters):

So tell me, Hak--why do YOU assume that I must be entirely wrong? (I expect such from mind-readers who don't even know whether or not they're French.)

[Jennifer]

Your own language shows that is more than just an issue of "low wages" to you; you're implying an oppressive power relationship here (I expect such from lit critters):

So tell me, Hak--why do YOU assume that I must be entirely wrong? (I expect such from mind-readers who don't even know whether or not they're French.)

[poco]

Some pay the dancers and let them keep all tips, some pay nothing but let the dancers keep all tips, some pay nothing and CHARGE the dancers to work there.

Jennifer, how many different clubs did you work at? Did you experience each of these types of managers, or just talk to the other girls about their old bosses? Anyone ever try to unionize? (Don't mean to sound as if I'm challenging or interrogating you -- just genuinely curious.)

[Jennifer]

Your own language shows that is more than just an issue of "low wages" to you; you're implying an oppressive power relationship here (I expect such from lit critters):

So tell me, Hak--why do YOU assume that I must be entirely wrong? (I expect such from mind-readers who don't even know whether or not they're French.)

[Jennifer]

Your own language shows that is more than just an issue of "low wages" to you; you're implying an oppressive power relationship here (I expect such from lit critters):

So tell me, Hak--why do YOU assume that I must be entirely wrong? (I expect such from mind-readers who don't even know whether or not they're French.)

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

So to recap, your complaint swung from bitching about who gets the credit, to low wages, to a power relationship, and now its back to the credit issue. Somebody is bouncing around...
statements, instead of just the first two.

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

So to recap, your complaint swung from bitching about who gets the credit, to low wages, to a power relationship, and now its back to the credit issue. Somebody is bouncing around...

[Jennifer]

This may be a double-posting, since the server is apparently on the fritz again, but here's a question for Hak: how do YOU know that I'm wrong here? Are you about to add "female sttripper" to your already extensive resume?

[smacky]

Wherein Jennifer endorses gouging poor NO residents who have lost everything in the big one (not to mention volunteer rescuers). Where is your compassion for those poor souls?

I can see rescue workers and military frequenting the strip clubs right about now, but residents??

"Gee, I just lost my property, my home, my pets, and all of my posessions....think I'll go watch some titties jiggle."

Anyway, I at least hope if not expect that strip club visitations are not currently a priority for displaced residents.

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

So to recap, your complaint swung from bitching about who gets the credit, to low wages, to a power relationship, and now its back to the credit issue. Somebody is bouncing around...

...YOU claim I said I was oppressed.

I made no such claim.

I did write the following:

Yet, despite your oppression, you were in the business ten years?

I was mocking you (in light of your power relationship statement). You see, you claim to have intimate knowledge of this industry, and because of this intimate knowledge you claim a certain power relationship is at play here (presumably because its a power relationship that is common throughout the country).

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

So to recap, your complaint swung from bitching about who gets the credit, to low wages, to a power relationship, and now its back to the credit issue. Somebody is bouncing around...

...YOU claim I said I was oppressed.

I made no such claim.

I did write the following:

Yet, despite your oppression, you were in the business ten years?

I was mocking you (in light of your power relationship statement). You see, you claim to have intimate knowledge of this industry, and because of this intimate knowledge you claim a certain power relationship is at play here (presumably because its a power relationship that is common throughout the country).

[thoreau]

That wasn't your main complaint earlier.

Oh, boy. Here we go...

[Jennifer]

This may be a double-posting, since the server is apparently on the fritz again, but here's a question for Hak: how do YOU know that I'm wrong here? Are you about to add "female sttripper" to your already extensive resume?

[Hakluyt]

Jennifer,

So to recap, your complaint swung from bitching about who gets the credit, to low wages, to a power relationship, and now its back to the credit issue. Somebody is bouncing around...

...YOU claim I said I was oppressed.

I made no such claim.

I did write the following:

Yet, despite your oppression, you were in the business ten years?

I was mocking you (in light of your power relationship statement). You see, you claim to have intimate knowledge of this industry, and because of this intimate knowledge you claim a certain power relationship is at play here (presumably because its a power relationship that is common throughout the country).

[thoreau]

That wasn't your main complaint earlier.

Oh, boy. Here we go...

[thoreau]

That wasn't your main complaint earlier.

Oh, boy. Here we go...

[Tom Crick]

"It's occurred to me that your position (as I understand it) that because managers always have more "power" than their workers that their instructions to workers constitute coercion is akin to Andrea Dworkin's claim that all heterosexual sex is rape because men always have more power than women."

I suspect there are big distortions in the economics of strip club employment. ...If you think zoning laws and business licenses for other kinds of uses are tough, just try to find space to open a new strip club!

...I'm not saying anyone is wrong or right here, but I think there are massive distortions in this particular job market.

Also, I suspect dancers can partially overcome this by doing bachelor's parties, etc., but don't most dancers get those referrals through a club?

[Number 6]

Again, we come up against the issue of whether bosses can exploit workers and treat people like crap even when their actions are not expressly coercive. Anywhere else, this would be a no-brainer. In a forum where some members take any criticism of things that can and do happen in the market as an example of Bolshevism, criticism of shitty bosses is heresy.

[thoreau]

That wasn't your main complaint earlier.

Oh, boy. Here we go...

[poco]

Some pay the dancers and let them keep all tips, some pay nothing but let the dancers keep all tips, some pay nothing and CHARGE the dancers to work there.

Jennifer, how many different clubs did you work at? Did you experience each of these types of managers, or just talk to the other girls about their old bosses? Anyone ever try to unionize? (Don't mean to sound as if I'm challenging or interrogating you -- just genuinely curious.)

[Number 6]

Again, we come up against the issue of whether bosses can exploit workers and treat people like crap even when their actions are not expressly coercive. Anywhere else, this would be a no-brainer. In a forum where some members take any criticism of things that can and do happen in the market as an example of Bolshevism, criticism of shitty bosses is heresy.

[Baylen]

Jennifer,

Call me heartless, but I think $1 is about all I'd pay for a lap dance from a stripper who lives in a city that ostensibly lacks running water and, thus, is without showers. And didn't Dave Chappelle have something to say about this?

BTW, strippers have some power, it seems, at least over customer actions.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Hak:

t makes this point all the time: what is wrong with a private citizen criticizing the business decisions of a private company? And Jennifer makes some very cromulant assertions, both from common sense and real-life experience.

Or are you just being a prick?

[Number 6]

Again, we come up against the issue of whether bosses can exploit workers and treat people like crap even when their actions are not expressly coercive. Anywhere else, this would be a no-brainer. In a forum where some members take any criticism of things that can and do happen in the market as an example of Bolshevism, criticism of shitty bosses is heresy.

[Number 6]

Again, we come up against the issue of whether bosses can exploit workers and treat people like crap even when their actions are not expressly coercive. Anywhere else, this would be a no-brainer. In a forum where some members take any criticism of things that can and do happen in the market as an example of Bolshevism, criticism of shitty bosses is heresy.

[Twba]

Deja Vu Bourbon Street is NOW OPEN
Looking for employees and entertainers who what to make more money than they will know what to do with.

[Baylen]

Jennifer,

Call me heartless, but I think $1 is about all I'd pay for a lap dance from a stripper who lives in a city that ostensibly lacks running water and, thus, is without showers. And didn't Dave Chappelle have something to say about this?

BTW, strippers have some power, it seems, at least over customer actions.

[Lost_In_Translation]

The manager's comment,

For Deja Vu manager Brent Ardeneaux, reopening was a public service.

while humorous in some aspects, is pretty distasteful to me in more ways. it seems pretty callous, along with pricing (which is not going to make anyone any money really, since tourism isn't coming back just for strip club). Hopefully he's not the asshole he seems and is actually supporting his employees, but I think Jennifer is pretty justified in her resentment to such callous behavior.

[NaG]

It seems that there may be some economic realities not considered by the news story.

I'm no expert on strip club economics, but it seems to me that a fair percentage, if not a majority, of the money that flows in such establishments is done under the table. The news story specifically only informs us as to a few of the above-table expenditures, namely cover charge (free), drinks ($3), and private dances ($1). We aren't being told about tips, and we aren't told how those tips figure in to what the strippers get as opposed to the club (perhaps Jennifer can help us with that).

It is entirely possible that this has been a good deal for the strippers. I will assume that up-front costs go to the club, while tips are split between the dancer and the club. Let's say your average horny sailor values a table dance at $20. If the up-front cost is $10, then he will likely tip the dancer $10. If the up-front cost is $1, then he will tip $19. If the club keeps the same percentage of the tips throughout, the dancer is undoubtably better off with $1 table dances than $10 ones. Lower up-front costs means higher tips.

It seems to me that, given the state of New Orleans, it is entirely likely that the manager had to reduce the up-front costs in order to make this worth the dancers' while in increased tips.

[NaG]

It seems that there may be some economic realities not considered by the news story.

I'm no expert on strip club economics, but it seems to me that a fair percentage, if not a majority, of the money that flows in such establishments is done under the table. The news story specifically only informs us as to a few of the above-table expenditures, namely cover charge (free), drinks ($3), and private dances ($1). We aren't being told about tips, and we aren't told how those tips figure in to what the strippers get as opposed to the club (perhaps Jennifer can help us with that).

It is entirely possible that this has been a good deal for the strippers. I will assume that up-front costs go to the club, while tips are split between the dancer and the club. Let's say your average horny sailor values a table dance at $20. If the up-front cost is $10, then he will likely tip the dancer $10. If the up-front cost is $1, then he will tip $19. If the club keeps the same percentage of the tips throughout, the dancer is undoubtably better off with $1 table dances than $10 ones. Lower up-front costs means higher tips.

It seems to me that, given the state of New Orleans, it is entirely likely that the manager had to reduce the up-front costs in order to make this worth the dancers' while in increased tips.

[NaG]

It seems that there may be some economic realities not considered by the news story.

I'm no expert on strip club economics, but it seems to me that a fair percentage, if not a majority, of the money that flows in such establishments is done under the table. The news story specifically only informs us as to a few of the above-table expenditures, namely cover charge (free), drinks ($3), and private dances ($1). We aren't being told about tips, and we aren't told how those tips figure in to what the strippers get as opposed to the club (perhaps Jennifer can help us with that).

It is entirely possible that this has been a good deal for the strippers. I will assume that up-front costs go to the club, while tips are split between the dancer and the club. Let's say your average horny sailor values a table dance at $20. If the up-front cost is $10, then he will likely tip the dancer $10. If the up-front cost is $1, then he will tip $19. If the club keeps the same percentage of the tips throughout, the dancer is undoubtably better off with $1 table dances than $10 ones. Lower up-front costs means higher tips.

It seems to me that, given the state of New Orleans, it is entirely likely that the manager had to reduce the up-front costs in order to make this worth the dancers' while in increased tips.

[MP]

Jennifer,

You applied a stereotype (that you have formulated) to an specific instance. As your stereotype gives ascribes low morals to the class you are typing, you are directly slandering this individual. Stereotyping like this is simply not in good taste. It is no different than seeing a story about people in WV and saying "well, what do you expect, they're PWT".

[Jennifer]

So to recap, your complaint swung from bitching about who gets the credit, to low wages, to a power relationship, and now its back to the credit issue.

Who says these contradict each other? It's bullshit that the girls are working for low wages, AND it's bullshit that the guy who still makes a profit gets a humanitarian reputation for it.

I'd still like to know how you know so much about stripper working conditions, though with the server today you may well have already answered thirty times.

(I made this post at 2:20. Let's see what time it actually appears.)

[Jennifer]

Poco--

(Don't even know why I'm responding, since the goddam server won't post it until tomorrow)

For most of my dancing experience, it was (except for the idiot vice cops) pretty damned close to libertopia--there were SO many clubs, and SO few non-skanky dancers, that if the owners got hold of a pretty dancer with no track marks, tattoos or missing teeth they HAD to treat her well, because there were plenty of other clubs willing to take her in.

When I was in college, in Virginia, I worked various local clubs, and in the summers I also worked with an agency that would send dancers to clubs in other states (and arrange lodging and so forth). I remember the agency always had a HELL of a time getting dancers to go to New Orleans, even back then--lots of dancers would go once, few would go twice. (I never went at all, after hearing what the other dancers had to say about it).

I never saw or experienced the stereotypical "sleep with me or no bookings" managers, though of course the dancers who DID sleep with the managers got first crack at the schedule.

I've only ever danced on the east coast; I've heard stories of dancers unionizing in places in California. Considering how many women go out there to try and break into show business, I imagine dancers there would be more expendable, and more in need of union protection.

I've worked in Virginia, Connecticut, New York City, North Carolina and Pennsylvania. . . . I think that's all, though I may be leaving something out. (Oh, I worked in Rhode Island ONCE. Some Mafia club. Christ, what a sleazepit. Only time outside of a movie I ever saw a man in a double-breasted suit, too.) I can't possibly count all the different cities or individual clubs I've worked; hell, I can't even remember all the stage names I've used. I used to make OUTRAGEOUS money working at the officers' club on a Navy-pilot base in Virginia Beach, until the Tailhook scandal put a stop to officers'-club-dancing.

But a lot of the dancers were very sad people--not doing it to pay for college or supplement a day job, but because they either had expensive drug habits or were just really, really stupid people. Many unwed mothers. And for every one dancer who had piles of money, there were dozens who really, really needed their jobs.

I think these poor dollar-a-dance girls in New Orleans fall into the latter category.

[NaG]

It seems that there may be some economic realities not considered by the news story.

I'm no expert on strip club economics, but it seems to me that a fair percentage, if not a majority, of the money that flows in such establishments is done under the table. The news story specifically only informs us as to a few of the above-table expenditures, namely cover charge (free), drinks ($3), and private dances ($1). We aren't being told about tips, and we aren't told how those tips figure in to what the strippers get as opposed to the club (perhaps Jennifer can help us with that).

It is entirely possible that this has been a good deal for the strippers. I will assume that up-front costs go to the club, while tips are split between the dancer and the club. Let's say your average horny sailor values a table dance at $20. If the up-front cost is $10, then he will likely tip the dancer $10. If the up-front cost is $1, then he will tip $19. If the club keeps the same percentage of the tips throughout, the dancer is undoubtably better off with $1 table dances than $10 ones. Lower up-front costs means higher tips.

It seems to me that, given the state of New Orleans, it is entirely likely that the manager had to reduce the up-front costs in order to make this worth the dancers' while in increased tips.

[NaG]

It seems that there may be some economic realities not considered by the news story.

I'm no expert on strip club economics, but it seems to me that a fair percentage, if not a majority, of the money that flows in such establishments is done under the table. The news story specifically only informs us as to a few of the above-table expenditures, namely cover charge (free), drinks ($3), and private dances ($1). We aren't being told about tips, and we aren't told how those tips figure in to what the strippers get as opposed to the club (perhaps Jennifer can help us with that).

It is entirely possible that this has been a good deal for the strippers. I will assume that up-front costs go to the club, while tips are split between the dancer and the club. Let's say your average horny sailor values a table dance at $20. If the up-front cost is $10, then he will likely tip the dancer $10. If the up-front cost is $1, then he will tip $19. If the club keeps the same percentage of the tips throughout, the dancer is undoubtably better off with $1 table dances than $10 ones. Lower up-front costs means higher tips.

It seems to me that, given the state of New Orleans, it is entirely likely that the manager had to reduce the up-front costs in order to make this worth the dancers' while in increased tips.

[Jennifer]

So to recap, your complaint swung from bitching about who gets the credit, to low wages, to a power relationship, and now its back to the credit issue.

Who says these contradict each other? It's bullshit that the girls are working for low wages, AND it's bullshit that the guy who still makes a profit gets a humanitarian reputation for it.

I'd still like to know how you know so much about stripper working conditions, though with the server today you may well have already answered thirty times.

(I made this post at 2:20. Let's see what time it actually appears.)

[NaG]

God-dammit! I apologize for the triple-post.

[spike-Z]

"Can someone explain the economics of strip joints? Do the dancers keep everything they collect in tips and for table/couch dances? Does the house pay them a hourly rate?"

When Trudy worked in Houston, she told me that she was paid $5.15 an hour, but had to pay the management hundreds of dollars a week in cash to stay on the payroll. The amounts varied depending on various factors, including who happened to be running the club operations day-to-day at any given time.

She claimed to have earned a six-figure income during her peak years, but said she spent a lot of it on plastic surgery, cocaine and shoes. When she retired, it was to marry one of her regular customers. Or so she said ...

[Rick H.]

I'm trying to find where Jennifer ever used the term "oppressive power relationship" or any variation thereof. Some of you guys are arguing with your own straw-strippers. Anyone who's ever worked in a nightclub knows the type all too well.

In any case, the Reason server has an oppressive power relationship with me.

[NaG]

God-dammit! I apologize for the quintuple-post. I fully expect this post to multiply as well.

[jf]

How do we know that it's not the manager personally providing the private dances?

$1 for 10 minutes of heaven with Brent Ardeneaux.

[fyodor]

test

[Jennifer]

It is entirely possible that this has been a good deal for the strippers. I will assume that up-front costs go to the club, while tips are split between the dancer and the club. Let's say your average horny sailor values a table dance at $20. If the up-front cost is $10, then he will likely tip the dancer $10. If the up-front cost is $1, then he will tip $19. If the club keeps the same percentage of the tips throughout, the dancer is undoubtably better off with $1 table dances than $10 ones. Lower up-front costs means higher tips.

Actually, no. You're right about the club keeping the money from drink sales and cover charges, but you're wrong about how guys tip.

I never could understand this, but the guys seemed to have little computers in their heads, and they would tip based on the cost of the drinks and other things at the bar. Let's say Bar A charges $3 for a drink, while Bar B, trying to be upscale, charges $10. The guys in Bar A would think five bucks was a HUGE tip to give an onstage dancer--hell, that's more than the cost of a drink! Whereas the guys in Bar B would think five bucks was small enough to almost be an insult--hell, that's only half the cost of a drink!

Likewise, when I worked in a club that charged ten bucks for a table dance, I'd be lucky to get even an extra dollar as a tip (not that I complained, getting ten bucks for three minutes of work). But at the twenty-dollar clubs, I almost ALWAYS got cash tips in addition to the twenty dollars for the dance.

Of course, all of this is separate from the money you made on stage. In some clubs, you made most of your money on the stage, and you'd be lucky to get even five table dances for the night. In other clubs, you made hardly anything on stage--stage-time was basically an advertisement for table-dancing. Virginia clubs were entirely for stage work; when I was there table dances were illegal. So when I moved to Connecticut, where table dancing was the norm, it took me a few weeks to learn how to hustle table dances properly.

From what I learned at the agency I used to work for (and I'll admit this is ten-year-old information) New Orleans was a table-dancing city; you made next to NOTHING on the stage. The table dances were your bread and butter.

[smacky]

Aw, shucks. The server isn't even posting my comments. Sniff.

What I wouldn't give for a triple- or quintuple- post.

[NaG]

I apologize in advance for any multiple posts.

Jennifer, what you say about how men gauge tipping makes sense, especially considering that stripping is a commodity with no reliable baseline values or costs. There's no objective standard for value, so it would be typical for the men to make comparisons to borderline-similar commodities in the same location, ie. drinks.

However, it seems to me that this story is a special case. The men here KNOW that the up-front costs have been heavily reduced. They KNOW that they would have otherwise been forced to pay $10 at the door (or whatever the amount) just to get in. Therefore, I am inclined to believe that the men at the establishment are going to be more generous with their tips as a result.

That is assuming, of course, that they actually have the money to do so.

[thoreau]

I don't know how many times this will finally show up, but...

Totally off-topic: Anybody see Lost last night? Remember those ancient computers they found? I wonder if the Reason server is down there.

Hmm, there is a crazy French person on the island...

[fyodor]

Hot damn, made it through!! Maybe it'll happen again...

Rick H.,

I'm following up on posts Jennifer made in earlier threads, a while ago.

Here she does say the strippers are being "made to" work for low wages, which I believe she supports by saying that they need their jobs so badly that to fire them would be tantamount to making them starve.

Regardless of whether that's literally true, there's a host of problems with looking at the threat of being fired as coercion. In the past, Jennifer has answered her critics here by saying that if a boss fires a worker, it's a much bigger calamity to the worker, who has to find a new means of livelihood, than it is to the boss, who merely has to find another worker. It's based on this logic (which I believe Jennifer has not refuted here, even if you are right to say she did not literally make that argument on this thread) that I've compared her position to the one I *thought* was made by Andrea Dworkin, that because women have historically been dependent on men for their livelihood and continue to be less economicly advantaged than men that sexual relationships between the sexes is a form of rape. Jennifer has rightly ridiculed this idea for infintalizing women as helpless beings, yet she fails to realize how her logic on the workplace does the same to workers.

Now I hit Post and pray...

[Phil]

Look, Jennifer, people have to make a choice: When looking for informed opinion about the adult entertainment business, they can trust the person with a decade of direct experience, or the MPD-suffering bisexual francophile ex-Marine history expert. Who would you trust in that scenario?

[Jennifer]

it seems to me that this story is a special case. The men here KNOW that the up-front costs have been heavily reduced. They KNOW that they would have otherwise been forced to pay $10 at the door (or whatever the amount) just to get in. Therefore, I am inclined to believe that the men at the establishment are going to be more generous with their tips as a result.

Obviously I can't prove this one way or the other, but based on my experience I'd say "no." Most strip-club patrons, assuming they recognize dancers' humanity at all, seem to think that all dancers are incredibly wealthy, so they don't really need tips. And I imagine rescue workers would be more likely than other guys to be obnoxious to the dancers. During the first Gulf War, when I was working in the Norfolk Naval Base area, I had a lot of guys try to get tip-free dances on the grounds that they were fighting for my freedom or some such crap. So I have no difficulty picturing guys down in NO trying to convince the dancers to give them freebies on the grounds that "we ARE here to help you, after all."

[Jennifer]

it seems to me that this story is a special case. The men here KNOW that the up-front costs have been heavily reduced. They KNOW that they would have otherwise been forced to pay $10 at the door (or whatever the amount) just to get in. Therefore, I am inclined to believe that the men at the establishment are going to be more generous with their tips as a result.

Obviously I can't prove this one way or the other, but based on my experience I'd say "no." Most strip-club patrons, assuming they recognize dancers' humanity at all, seem to think that all dancers are incredibly wealthy, so they don't really need tips. And I imagine rescue workers would be more likely than other guys to be obnoxious to the dancers. During the first Gulf War, when I was working in the Norfolk Naval Base area, I had a lot of guys try to get tip-free dances on the grounds that they were fighting for my freedom or some such crap. So I have no difficulty picturing guys down in NO trying to convince the dancers to give them freebies on the grounds that "we ARE here to help you, after all."

[Jennifer]

Hmm, there is a crazy French person on the island...

Weren't you paying attention during the Wal-Mart "serfs" thread? Hak is NOT French anymore!

[Jennifer]

Hmm, there is a crazy French person on the island...

Weren't you paying attention during the Wal-Mart "serfs" thread? Hak is NOT French anymore!

[Jennifer]

it seems to me that this story is a special case. The men here KNOW that the up-front costs have been heavily reduced. They KNOW that they would have otherwise been forced to pay $10 at the door (or whatever the amount) just to get in. Therefore, I am inclined to believe that the men at the establishment are going to be more generous with their tips as a result.

Obviously I can't prove this one way or the other, but based on my experience I'd say "no." Most strip-club patrons, assuming they recognize dancers' humanity at all, seem to think that all dancers are incredibly wealthy, so they don't really need tips. And I imagine rescue workers would be more likely than other guys to be obnoxious to the dancers. During the first Gulf War, when I was working in the Norfolk Naval Base area, I had a lot of guys try to get tip-free dances on the grounds that they were fighting for my freedom or some such crap. So I have no difficulty picturing guys down in NO trying to convince the dancers to give them freebies on the grounds that "we ARE here to help you, after all."

[fyodor]

Hot damn, made it through!! Maybe it'll happen again...

Rick H.,

I'm following up on posts Jennifer made in earlier threads, a while ago.

Here she does say the strippers are being "made to" work for low wages, which I believe she supports by saying that they need their jobs so badly that to fire them would be tantamount to making them starve.

Regardless of whether that's literally true, there's a host of problems with looking at the threat of being fired as coercion. In the past, Jennifer has answered her critics here by saying that if a boss fires a worker, it's a much bigger calamity to the worker, who has to find a new means of livelihood, than it is to the boss, who merely has to find another worker. It's based on this logic (which I believe Jennifer has not refuted here, even if you are right to say she did not literally make that argument on this thread) that I've compared her position to the one I *thought* was made by Andrea Dworkin, that because women have historically been dependent on men for their livelihood and continue to be less economicly advantaged than men that sexual relationships between the sexes is a form of rape. Jennifer has rightly ridiculed this idea for infintalizing women as helpless beings, yet she fails to realize how her logic on the workplace does the same to workers.

Now I hit Post and pray...

[fyodor]

Hot damn, made it through!! Maybe it'll happen again...

Rick H.,

I'm following up on posts Jennifer made in earlier threads, a while ago.

Here she does say the strippers are being "made to" work for low wages, which I believe she supports by saying that they need their jobs so badly that to fire them would be tantamount to making them starve.

Regardless of whether that's literally true, there's a host of problems with looking at the threat of being fired as coercion. In the past, Jennifer has answered her critics here by saying that if a boss fires a worker, it's a much bigger calamity to the worker, who has to find a new means of livelihood, than it is to the boss, who merely has to find another worker. It's based on this logic (which I believe Jennifer has not refuted here, even if you are right to say she did not literally make that argument on this thread) that I've compared her position to the one I *thought* was made by Andrea Dworkin, that because women have historically been dependent on men for their livelihood and continue to be less economicly advantaged than men that sexual relationships between the sexes is a form of rape. Jennifer has rightly ridiculed this idea for infintalizing women as helpless beings, yet she fails to realize how her logic on the workplace does the same to workers.

Now I hit Post and pray...

[fyodor]

Hot damn, made it through!! Maybe it'll happen again...

Rick H.,

I'm following up on posts Jennifer made in earlier threads, a while ago.

Here she does say the strippers are being "made to" work for low wages, which I believe she supports by saying that they need their jobs so badly that to fire them would be tantamount to making them starve.

Regardless of whether that's literally true, there's a host of problems with looking at the threat of being fired as coercion. In the past, Jennifer has answered her critics here by saying that if a boss fires a worker, it's a much bigger calamity to the worker, who has to find a new means of livelihood, than it is to the boss, who merely has to find another worker. It's based on this logic (which I believe Jennifer has not refuted here, even if you are right to say she did not literally make that argument on this thread) that I've compared her position to the one I *thought* was made by Andrea Dworkin, that because women have historically been dependent on men for their livelihood and continue to be less economicly advantaged than men that sexual relationships between the sexes is a form of rape. Jennifer has rightly ridiculed this idea for infintalizing women as helpless beings, yet she fails to realize how her logic on the workplace does the same to workers.

Now I hit Post and pray...

[Timothy]

I imagine that the tip number comes about a lot like how one calculates tip on waiters. The cost of the service multiplied by some arbitrary percentage. Having never set foot inside a strip club, I certainly can't verify this, but it seems sort of reasonable. And it gels well with Jennifer's observation about tipping and the cost of drinks.

[test message]

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[wayne]

maybe the strippers and the manager/owner sat down and decided between them to do the $1.00 lap dance thing. Maybe the owner said, "OK, for the duration of our little charity grind, I will share profits from sales so that you big-hearted, busty girls can continue to support your greasy-haired biker boyfriends..."

Without a little more info, who the fuck knows what the deal was?

[Jennifer]

Fyodor--

You and I will never agree on certain details of employer/employee relationships, but regardless of which one of us is right about that, I'd be willing to bet on two things:

1. The one-dollar dances were not the dancers' idea, and

2. If a dancer said "No, I don't want or can't afford to do one-dollar dances," the manager's response was NOT "No problem--you can come back when the price goes back up."

And I still say it's bullshit that the dancers are making the actual sacrifice, while the manager is getting the credit as this great and generous guy.

(And on an unrelated note, I have to wonder--did Mona finally cancel her subscription? Is that why Reason can't afford a server that actually works?)

[fyodor]

wayne,

The important thing is that it most likely was a legitimate deal. If the bar owner threatened them with violence, then he should be held accountable. If he threatened them with being fired, oh well, that sucks, but it's no different than telling me there are poor people in the world. It sucks that there's any suffering, and if I can wave a magic wand and make it all go away...well who knows what I would do. Maybe the world would be boring if there were no suffering. Point is, while I understand those gals ain't in no enviable situation, as long as the club owner isn't threatening their life or limb or liberty or property, they're not being "made to" do anything. He could just as easily not offer to hire them at all, and then they'd be no better off.

[wayne]

Andre Dworkin was an ugly, unhappy hag that never had an erect penis forced upon her, so who would take her seriously anyway.

I would much rather talk to a stripper than some embittered, man-hating feminist. I have to say that Jennifer is fluent and I have even greater respect for her now that I know she was a "working girl" as well.

The Reason server is pathetic, maybe the geeky system administrator could do a bump and grind while standing on it; you know, in honor of this topic.

[Jennifer]

Oh, and lest anyone make huffy accusations about my low expectations and lack of respect in regards to the comments I've made about the noble heroic table-dance dollar customers of N'Awlins, stop first to consider this:

The way guys act in strip clubs toward strippers might, just might, be a tad different from the nice polite way they behave outside strip clubs toward non-strippers.

And, that even among the guys who will be cool to the dancers in New Orleans, chances are few of them are thinking "What can I do to mitigate this dancer's economic troubles, especially in light of the ninety or ninety-five-percent paycut she's just taken?"

[wayne]

fyodor,

Maybe there was a deal, and maybe not. I don't know, and neither does anybody else here because there is not enough info to know.

Why do you say the girls there are in an "unenviable position"? Sounds to me like a girl with nothing more going for her than nice tits can make a damn good living as a stripper. I envy that. I have really nice balls, but so far nobody has paid to see them. I usually have a hard time (pun???) getting most girls to look at them for free.

[thoreau]

If Mona's cancellation is the straw that broke the camel's back, I would be happy to pay for an issue to be mailed to her every month.

They can use the extra revenue to upgrade their system. I hear the Commodore 128 is excellent!

[fyodor]

And I still say it's bullshit that the dancers are making the actual sacrifice, while the manager is getting the credit as this great and generous guy.

Personally, I would never buy that he's a great and generous guy anyway. So please don't include me in that. Not that you necessarily were, but either way, please don't.

I understand that it's not bloody likely the girls' idea and that the owner may very well be threatening the girls with their job. Just as he may do any time they may not want to do what he says.

Jennifer, why do you think the girls would dance for $1 now when they wouldn't normally? After all, the owner always has the incentive to pay the girls the least he can get away with. That's no different now than at "normal" times. If the girls are willing to do it for less now, it must be that they're more desparate right about now. Which ain't a good thing, I know, but that's the point. What it takes to keep the club in business is what it takes to pay the women. That's how capitalism works. Sure, the capitalists make the most out of it, but it's only because they can make so much that it's worth it to them to pay their workers anything at all.

Well anyway, I won't go any futher into Econ 101... Suffice to say, just like with my arguments with joe over emergency price gouging, I say a market is a market is a market, and if people are willing to work for the pay being offered, they ain't being forced to do it. If their alternative is starving, then all the more reason to stay out of the way and allow the capitalist to pay them.

[fyodor]

wayne,

I guess I'm buying Jennifer's version of things regarding the circumstances these women likely face, based on her experiences in the bizz. Sure, I don't "know" anything about them for sure, but Jennifer's testimonial does provide, I think, a reasonable amount of information on which to make an educated assumption. Maybe it's enviable to be able to make money off your tits, but that doesn't mean it's enviable to not have any better alternatives!

[wayne]

"The way guys act in strip clubs toward strippers might, just might, be a tad different from the nice polite way they behave outside strip clubs toward non-strippers."

Jennifer,

Well of course you treat a woman differently when you are wooing her than when you actually get her into the bedroom. That is as it should be. I have seen many a pretty girl walking down the street that I sorely wanted to tuck a sticky dollar bill into the waist-band of her panties with my name and number written on it. But after trying it a few times I decided that, "so, do you come here often" works better.

[wayne]

Fyodor,

Having nice tits does not preclude one from having alternatives. Oh no, on the contrary, having nice tits only enhances one's prospects in life.

[NoStar]

I've only been in three strip clubs. Each time I left feeling depressed. Probably due to a mixture of seeing the latent sadness of the dancers, an inability on my part to believe any of the dancers could want anything from me except money, and my peculiar disposition of liking money more than sex (and I like sex a lot.)

So, maybe if the drinks weren't over priced and the covercharge was dropped, I might have actually been able to enjoy a $1 lap dance. That is until I was reminded that there's no running water for showers in New Orleans.

[NoStar]

I've only been in three strip clubs. Each time I left feeling depressed. Probably due to a mixture of seeing the latent sadness of the dancers, an inability on my part to believe any of the dancers could want anything from me except money, and my peculiar disposition of liking money more than sex (and I like sex a lot.)

So, maybe if the drinks weren't over priced and the covercharge was dropped, I might have actually been able to enjoy a $1 lap dance. That is until I was reminded that there's no running water for showers in New Orleans.

[NoStar]

I've only been in three strip clubs. Each time I left feeling depressed. Probably due to a mixture of seeing the latent sadness of the dancers, an inability on my part to believe any of the dancers could want anything from me except money, and my peculiar disposition of liking money more than sex (and I like sex a lot.)

So, maybe if the drinks weren't over priced and the covercharge was dropped, I might have actually been able to enjoy a $1 lap dance. That is until I was reminded that there's no running water for showers in New Orleans.

[NoStar]

I've only been in three strip clubs. Each time I left feeling depressed. Probably due to a mixture of seeing the latent sadness of the dancers, an inability on my part to believe any of the dancers could want anything from me except money, and my peculiar disposition of liking money more than sex (and I like sex a lot.)

So, maybe if the drinks weren't over priced and the covercharge was dropped, I might have actually been able to enjoy a $1 lap dance. That is until I was reminded that there's no running water for showers in New Orleans.

[NoStar]

I've only been in three strip clubs. Each time I left feeling depressed. Probably due to a mixture of seeing the latent sadness of the dancers, an inability on my part to believe any of the dancers could want anything from me except money, and my peculiar disposition of liking money more than sex (and I like sex a lot.)

So, maybe if the drinks weren't over priced and the covercharge was dropped, I might have actually been able to enjoy a $1 lap dance. That is until I was reminded that there's no running water for showers in New Orleans.

[NoStar]

I've only been in three strip clubs. Each time I left feeling depressed. Probably due to a mixture of seeing the latent sadness of the dancers, an inability on my part to believe any of the dancers could want anything from me except money, and my peculiar disposition of liking money more than sex (and I like sex a lot.)

So, maybe if the drinks weren't over priced and the covercharge was dropped, I might have actually been able to enjoy a $1 lap dance. That is until I was reminded that there's no running water for showers in New Orleans.

[thoreau]

Well of course you treat a woman differently when you are wooing her than when you actually get her into the bedroom. That is as it should be.

I don't think either of those scenarios (wooing or bedding) accurately describes how men treat women in a strip club.

[fyodor]

wayne,

Who the hell said that having nice tits was a drawback? Surely not me. My point was that they have no better alternative in life to exotic dancing for a living. Based on Jennifer's firsthand experience, theirs is not a glamorous but rather an unenviable life. If you don't buy her firsthand accounts, that's your choice. Well, I'm out of time. Have a nice weekend, everybody!!! (I don't work on Fridays, he-he-he-he, and it's quitting time!!!)

[biologist]

instead of endlessly, pointlessly debating whether Hakluyt or Jennifer said this or that, wouldn't our energies be better expended convincing Tim Cavanaugh to ban Hakluyt again?:)

[wayne]

"I don't think either of those scenarios (wooing or bedding) accurately describes how men treat women in a strip club."

it is called an analogy... in fact, it is the same analogy that Winston Churchill used when describing how he treated Roosevelt before and after he persuaded him to do the "lend-lease" deal in WW II.

[Jennifer]

Jennifer, why do you think the girls would dance for $1 now when they wouldn't normally? After all, the owner always has the incentive to pay the girls the least he can get away with. That's no different now than at "normal" times. If the girls are willing to do it for less now, it must be that they're more desparate right about now. Which ain't a good thing, I know, but that's the point. What it takes to keep the club in business is what it takes to pay the women.

That is not the point. This isn't a matter of him paying them--it's a matter of him telling the girls that when they sell their dancing services they have to charge ninety to ninety-five percent less than they are accustomed to. And chances are good that if the girls did get paid anything by the club, it was a pittance.

At one club where I worked, in Connecticut, the pay was only $20 for seven hours, but since table dances were $20 each and we got to keep it all, I'd walk out of there with $250 on a bad night.

But not with one-dollar table dances.

Maybe it's enviable to be able to make money off your tits, but that doesn't mean it's enviable to not have any better alternatives!

Bingo. And these girls don't just lack alternatives to dancing--they also lack alternatives to dancing anywhere else.

Well of course you treat a woman differently when you are wooing her than when you actually get her into the bedroom.

Oh, agreed. However, while there are many words I'd use to describe the interactions between strip-club customers and strip-club workers, "wooing" isn't anywhere on that list.

[Tom Crick]

My comments on this haven't made it on this thread, but I keep tryin' to point out that government interference in the strip club industry--by way of CUPs and zoning laws alone--causes big distortions in the way a normal employment market would function.

...Even in larger cities, I suspect, there are relatively few alternative venues for dancers. That's not because there isn't a demand, rather, I suspect, it's because of zoning and CUPs. So suggesting that women should accept the terms of employment or just move to another city ignores a certain bit of reality.

Also, some of you seem to be arguing with Jennifer as if she were arguing that OSHA should get involved. It's not clear to me that Jennifer's arguing for federal standards here. She seems to just thinks it's likely that these dancers are getting a raw deal, and I think that's likely.

...especially considering the paucity of alternatives for housing, food and employment in New Orleans.

I mean, can't you say that a lot of drug dealers treat their customers poorly without suggesting that people shouldn't be allowed to sell drugs. ...There's a difference between saying that Americans shouldn't be allowed to buy merchandise made in foreign sweat shops and saying that an apparent case of sweat shop abuse is egregious.

[wayne]

jennifer,

see my last post about analogys. no, i am not being snarky or supercilious, just clarifying.

i gotta go even though I love talking to strippers. i will end this with a true story:

once i was in st. louis on business around fourth of july. all of the strip clubs in st. louis are actually located in east st. louis, illinois. there was a televised news account about the various strippers from the clubs there that get together every year and do a topless car-wash for charity. i don't know what charity they supported, maybe the "auto-immune disorder brought on by silicon implants society".

there was on overhead helicopter camera that showed the cars backed up for, no shit, about a mile to make their charitable donations. i was, of course, driving a rental car so i did not queue up, although having a soapy car-wash from a nearly naked girl does sound like good, clean fun.

the point of the story is that those girls were in a charitable mood. maybe the NO girls were in a similar giving mood.

[onetrackmind]

What the (bleep) does "cromulant" mean?!?

[wayne]

"I mean, can't you say that a lot of drug dealers treat their customers poorly without suggesting that people shouldn't be allowed to sell drugs."

I had to respond to this. Tom, this is a libertarian board. We (I) think that people SHOULD be allowed to sell drugs.

[Jennifer]

Wayne, working for free for one day is an entirely different matter for working for ninety or ninety percent less pay, after your home and city have been destroyed.

[Jennifer]

Different matter FROM working for ninety percet less.

[wayne]

jennifer,

ok, fair enough. i would be smart alecky to most posters on this topic, but not to you.

last point: who does get a "fair deal" in an employment situation? the guy who mops up the vomit in the bathroom of those strip joints? the cab driver who hauls aroung all of the idiot tourists and hookers?

strippers don't have any worse a time than the rest of us. jennifer, you seem to have done ok. i mean, here you are swapping barbs with a bunch of low-life libertarians :-].

[Rick H.]

I had to respond to this. Tom, this is a libertarian board. We (I) think that people SHOULD be allowed to sell drugs.

Wayne, for clarification of Tom's comment, see your previous post about analogies.

[Tom Crick]

"I had to respond to this. Tom, this is a libertarian board. We (I) think that people SHOULD be allowed to sell drugs."

Um, I'm a libertarian wayne; I mean, I'm a Libertarian! ...and I think people should be allowed to sell drugs too.

...I also think people who sell heroin are disgusting. So are people who cheat on their spouses, lie to their children or yell at the elderly. ...That doesn't mean those things should be illegal.

Get it wayne? Just because a libertarian says something is wrong, doesn't mean that libertarian thinks it should be illegal. Just because Jennifer is saying that these people are probably being mistreated doesn't mean she thinks this strip club should have its employment practices overseen directly by OSHA.

...what's wrong with pointing out that someone is probably being mistreated?

[thoreau]

Hit and Run Dogma #117,204: Everything in life is perfectly fair, just and above reproach as long as the public sector isn't involved.

[wayne]

I don't think heroin sellers are disgusting, just capitalists. If I was going to judge, I would say that heroin users are disgusting, but I am not going to judge such things.

My apologies to Tom for not understanding that you were using an analogy. That is the trouble with quickly written communication, there is no subtlety as there is with verbal comm.

Incidentally, I never thought that Jennifer was saying that OSHA should get involved with these stripper's work. I think that Jen makes too much of their suffering though. They made the choice to take their clothes off for money, and are apparently paid VERY WELL for their immodesty. How are they victimized? How is their suffering any greater than the schmuck who flips burgers for MacDonalds? Personally, I would rather be a stripper than most of the normal shit jobs I can think of.

I also don't buy the "they have no alternatives..." line. They have the same opportunities and alternatives that the rest of us have. In fact, they have more opportunities than most because they are (usually) more attractive than most and that is a definitive advantage. Nope, I will not be crying in my beer over their plight tonight.

[DB]

working for free for one day is an entirely different matter for working for ninety or ninety percent less pay, after your home and city have been destroyed

If the guy was turning a profit and forcing the girls to work for nothing, you'd have a point. But there's no evidence he's forcing them to work and it is pretty obvious he's not turning a profit. So what grounds is there for complaints?

Why is the guy obligated to run his business for the benefit of his employees? Do you think that the dancers would have kicked in their money to help *him* out when times got tough? Hell no; they'd just find a new club to work for.

[DB]

Also, are you sure that the dancers aren't getting paid directly by the club? The Deja Vu website is claiming that the girls at that club are currently earning $300 an hour; the whole thing seems like a publicity stunt. Under-the-table payments make a lot more sense than dancers working for $10 a night just for the privledge of keeping their jobs; it isn't like it's hard for a stripper to find work in another town.

[Jennifer]

it is pretty obvious he's not turning a profit

How do YOU know how much he's paying for the drinks he sells for three dollars each right now?

They made the choice to take their clothes off for money, and are apparently paid VERY WELL for their immodesty.

One dollar for a table dance is NOT "very well." Especially when your table-dance money is the bulk of what you make.

Do you think that the dancers would have kicked in their money to help *him* out when times got tough?

Again besides the point. He's not paying them money at all; he's using them to attract customers for hmself, but ALSO saying they can charge their customers 90 to 95 percent less than they're accustomed to.

The Deja Vu website is claiming that the girls at that club are currently earning $300 an hour

EVERY club will make similar claims. And in normal times, it might be true (though I doubt it; all clubs exaggerate/lie about how much you can make there). I don't think it is now, though.

And NONE of these arguments address my point that the manager is portraying himself as this great and noble person when in reality, HE is still making good profits (on those watered-down $3 drinks)--all he did was waive the cover charge and tell his dancers "You will now charge the guys only a fraction of what you usually do." The dancers are the ones making financial sacrifices here, not the manager.

[OPUS]

Are we sure these dancers are not illegal aliens? They very might well be working for less than minimum wage! The dancers are being exploited!

[thoreau]

OPUS-

Illegal aliens work under the table.

[NaG]

Jennifer, isn't it POSSIBLE that the reduced above-table prices have not resulted in reduced tips? I think you are going too far to assume that this must, absolutely must, be working in the strippers' disadvantage.

[Jennifer]

Jennifer, isn't it POSSIBLE that the reduced above-table prices have not resulted in reduced tips? I think you are going too far to assume that this must, absolutely must, be working in the strippers' disadvantage.

There are possibilities, and then there are probabilities. Certainly it is POSSIBLE that this is working to the dancers' advantage, just as it was always possible, back when I was dancing, that some guy would give me such a huge tip that I could pay my semester's tuition and books with one night's take. But it is not PROBABLE. Especially considering the fact that New Orleans clubs were always table-dance-oriented.

[linguist]

Darnit. This didn't get posted yesterday...

Seems to me that this is really an important question:
Will they accept FEMA debit cards?

Anyone know? Is this what our taxes are paying for?

[Jon H]

I think the $1 dances were done, with agreement from management and dancers, as a publicity stunt so that the bar can take best advantage of their short-term lapdance monopoly.

They'll more than recoup any losses in coming days, from regular-price dances.

[wayne]

Jennifer,

Since you are obviously an intelligent girl, why did you not just work as a secretary. Or, since you are obviously a pretty (and intelligent) girl why not work in retail, you know at the Gap hawking $80.00 jeans?

These are rhetorical questions, and I suspect the answer is because you made a LOT more money stripping. I don't blame you in the least if that is the case. As I said previously, I would much rather be a stripper than be a bored secretary, or burger flipper. How many secretaries think, "maybe today I will earn enough to pay my semester's tuition and books"? As a stripper, that could happen...

The point I am making is why all the gnashing of teeth about the "poor girls"? They make damn good money. They have just been a through a once in 100 years event. Everybody else down there went through it tooo. Nobody here KNOWS anything about the deal between the girls and the owner of the bar.

If a sleazy bar owner told you, "today you strip for $1.00, that's it no more. Oh, and by the way, you have to buy the bar a round of drinks"? What would you say? My guess is you would tell him to fuck off. If you did not tell him to fuck off, I would be inclined to think the deal was somewhat sweeter than the one I described.

[Jennifer]

The point I am making is why all the gnashing of teeth about the "poor girls"? They make damn good money. They have just been a through a once in 100 years event. Everybody else down there went through it tooo. Nobody here KNOWS anything about the deal between the girls and the owner of the bar.

As I've said a zillion times, my main complaint here is the way the MANAGER is taking credit for accepting a pay cut in the name of Whatever, when in reality it is the DANCERS who are bearing the brunt of it, but the dancers are not getting the credit. Had this article been "Dancers agree to do table dances for a dollar," rather than "Manager lets customers have table dances for a dollar," I may not have even posted anything.

[wayne]

"It's nice to get back to work, and all these men need some entertainment," Dawn Beasley, 27, a dancer at the club, said on Tuesday night. "They haven't seen anybody but their buddies for two weeks."

A dancer said that...

"We were open till two last night, just long enough to get the testosterone flowing," Beasley said.

She sounded pretty happy about it.

"Only a handful of restaurants and bars in the Quarter have reopened in recent days, serving food and drinks -- usually without charge -- to rescue workers and military who stream through the mostly empty streets. The Deja Vu waived its cover charge, drinks were selling for $3 and a private dance was available for just $1.

For Deja Vu manager Brent Ardeneaux, reopening was a public service."

It is not clear to me that Brent, the manager, was taking credit for the $1.00 lap dances.

[Jennifer]

Wayne--

Do you actually think a stripper who disliked the new policy would go on record as saying so? Rule Number One: never, ever complain that you're not making enough money as a stripper, because you know damned well nobody's going to feel sorry for you.

[Jennifer]

Wayne--

Do you actually think a stripper who disliked the new policy would go on record as saying so? Rule Number One: never, ever complain that you're not making enough money as a stripper, because you know damned well nobody's going to feel sorry for you.

[wayne]

Jennifer,

You did make pretty good money as a stripper, didn't you? Does anybody ever make "enough money"?

A few years ago, a young woman wrote a book about being a stripper and putting herself through an Ivy league college (Brown, I think). She came through her four years at Brown debt free!!!!! I saw her interviewed on TV while promoting the book. Very intelligent, very pretty. It sounds to me like she made "enough money". Just out of curiosity, how much money could a dancer make in an average three day work week back in the day when you were a dancer?

How many pimply-faced young boys with an intense interest in sitting in front of a computer 20 hours a day could put themselves through college? Is that fair to them?

[Jennifer]

Wayne, the most I ever made in three days was about $1200. But what has that to do with stripping in a destroyed city with one open strip club, where table dances are the main source of income and the manager has decreed table dances can only be sold for a dollar?

[Jennifer]

This may be a repeat, since the regular daily server screwup seems to be going on, but the most I ever made in three days was about $1200. The Brown girl probably made more, since Rhode Island has lap dancing as oposed to table dancing. (Which partially explains why I only danced in Rhode Island ONCE--I didn't mind getting topless in front of strangers, but dry-humping them to the point of orgasm was another matter entirely.)

But what does my $1200 have to do with dancers in a destroyed city with only one open strip club, where table dances are the main source of income and the manager has decreed that they can't be sold for more than a dollar?

[Jennifer]

This may be a repeat, since the regular daily server screwup seems to be going on, but the most I ever made in three days was about $1200. The Brown girl probably made more, since Rhode Island has lap dancing as oposed to table dancing. (Which partially explains why I only danced in Rhode Island ONCE--I didn't mind getting topless in front of strangers, but dry-humping them to the point of orgasm was another matter entirely.)

But what does my $1200 have to do with dancers in a destroyed city with only one open strip club, where table dances are the main source of income and the manager has decreed that they can't be sold for more than a dollar?

[wayne]

I see no evidence the manager decreed anything.

Four hundred dollars a day, ten years ago, that's about $800 a day adjusted for inflation today... That ain't bad money. A wise dancer might squirrel a bit away for a rainy day.

Look, I like strippers, but I don't feel sorry for them in anyway except this: Making $800.00 per day shaking your tits in some guy's leering face distorts your sense of reality. It must be very difficult to get an ordinary job after that and make $30.00 an hour. I mean eight whole hours of drudgery, and no prospect at all of a tip that will send you to the Bahamas for a week, geesh. Just thirty measly dollars. On top of that, I suspect that many young women come away with a fair amount of contempt for men. They are just all a bunch of drooling, fools.

But if a young woman is smart enough to realize that those perky teenage tits won't last forever, and that men are no more contemptible than women (i.e. not at all) then it can be a pretty sweet deal.

[Jennifer]

Actually, Wayne, it was four hundred a day five years ago. And that was on a good day. But again, WHAT is your POINT? I never denied that strippers make good money under normal conditions--I merely pointed out that a dollar for a table dance is NOT good money.

And as for seeing no evidence the manager decreed anything--well, you've also seen no evidence that this was the dancers' idea, either.

[wayne]

"And as for seeing no evidence the manager decreed anything--well, you've also seen no evidence that this was the dancers' idea, either."

Well, there is the dancer's (Beasely) quote.

My point is that these dancers are not victimized here. The manager is not the devil incarnate, at least based on this meager evidence. At least Ms Beasely seems happy. It could all just be a front on her part, but neither you nor I know that.

Assuming the dancers do ten table dances per night, they make $10. That ain't enough to live on. So, either they are living on savings, or they are making more than that. I don't know which, and neither does anybody else, except the dancers themselves. If they can't make a living at it, they will quit doing it.

[DB]

"it is pretty obvious he's not turning a profit"

How do YOU know how much he's paying for the drinks he sells for three dollars each right now?

Because there's no way in hell a bar on Bourbon Street can turn a profit charging $3 for drinks with no cover charge and no minimum. Those are really low prices for a bar in a *crappy* part of town -- a bar paying Bourbon Street rent needs to charge a lot more. Google around, you'll find that the place was charging $6 to $10 a drink before the flood, with a cover charge on top of that. Now they're charging $3. Your claim that they're making big profits on their "watered down drinks" is ridiculous.

He's not paying them money at all

I'll add that to the list of completely unsupported claims you've made. The list is getting pretty long at this point.

EVERY club will make similar claims.

Yes, but you've offered no evidence that the claim is false. Where is your proof that the bar isn't paying the girls what it claims to be paying them? You seem to have this vision of a New Orleans filled with strippers with no place to go. Strippers can find work anywhere; it's the club owners who got screwed by the hurricane. They're all going to have a hell of a time recruiting and retaining talent in these new conditions; what girl would work in a flooded city unless there was really good money in it?

And NONE of these arguments address my point that the manager is portraying himself as this great and noble person when in reality

Please quote the part of the article where the manager says anything of the kind. All I see is a *dancer* saying that they're doing this out of kindness, the *reporter* saying that opening the bar was a public service, and the manager saying nothing but "It's a disaster zone. You got a lot of people in from out of town that need entertaining". There's no evidence the bar owner is portraying himself as a saint, nor is there evidence that the girls' contribution is being overlooked.

[BiggieFromNOLA]

Just to clear up a few facts! First, there was a typo in the news article. the dancers were giving $10 table dances not $1 (the normal price of a table dance is $20). I have worked in a strip club in downtown New Orleans for six years, and no stripper on earth will give a $1 table dance.
Second, I know Brent Ardeneaux personally, he is a middle manager and he does not make club policy. Deja Vu is a national company with somthing like 80 clubs nation wide, and the people higer up make the prices, Brent just counts their money at the end of the shift. Please do not bash Brent Ardeneaux for a typo. That kid has been working 12 hour shifts 7 days a week since he got home from an evacuation order, and take it from personal experince the dancers in that club are making a lot more money than anybody else in the whole of downtown New Orleans (they would not be there if they did not want to be).
Last, I dont know if any of you have been to a dead city in 98 degree heat, and had to work 12 hours a day with the stench of decay everywhere, it is not a good time! The people in these clubs are providing a public service. They are helping the people working and protecting the city of New Orleans to get there minds off the complete devastation and the task ahead of them, even if just for a moment.
I understand that there are issues discussed on this page that don't have anything to do with Brent Ardeneaux or the city of New Orleans. I have read post of people bashing a friend of mine based on a misunderstanding, and I felt the need to clear up that misunderstanding.