Your House and Your Guns

New Orleans is now forcibly evacuating residents who don't want to leave, and taking their guns to boot.

No civilians in New Orleans will be allowed to carry pistols, shotguns, or other firearms of any kind, said P. Edwin Compass, the superintendent of police. "Only law enforcement are allowed to have weapons," he said.

But that order apparently does not apply to the hundreds of security guards whom businesses and some wealthy individuals have hired to protect their property. The guards, who are civilians working for private security firms like Blackwater, are openly carrying M-16's and other assault rifles. Mr. Compass said he was aware of the private guards but that the police had no plans to make them give up their weapons.

If I lived in a dry neighborhood with plenty of provisions and property to protect, this might annoy me. Also, from the Dept. of What-a-Surprise, last night on CNN I saw a report where local cops were wary about enforcing the forcible removal, but some shipped-in California Highway Patrolmen embraced the order with gusto.

Story here; link via the Volokh Conspiracy.

Comments

[joe]

"The guards, who are civilians working for private security firms like Blackwater, are openly carrying M-16's and other assault rifles."

Can this possibly be true that these guys have military grade automatic rifles, or did he misidentify the AR-15?

[jf]

You can't be serious. What difference does it make if they misidentified the rifles 😉

[wellfellow]

Joe, I bet you're right on that.

[mediageek]

Blackwater is one of the security firms that's doing a lot of work in Iraq as well. It wouldn't surprise me if they were toting M16's.

[Matt Welch]

My wife subscribes to a PI list-serv of sorts, and there are jobs aplenty to do well-paid security work in NOLA.

[thoreau]

joe-

Any misidentification of the weapon would immediately discredit the entire thing, obviously...

[mediageek]

Any misidentification of the weapon would immediately discredit the entire thing, obviously...

And thoreau, with one fell swoop, completely discredits the entire gun control movement.

😉

[jf]

Also, from the Dept. of What-a-Surprise, last night on CNN I saw a report where local cops were wary about enforcing the forcible removal, but some shipped-in California Highway Patrolmen embraced the order with gusto.

That reminds me of that episode where Ponch and Jon kicked the teeth out of all those illegal immigrants living in that house.

[wellfellow]

I think Joe was just asking, Joe, were you trying to discredit anything?

[thoreau]

mediageek-

What? Did I make a mistake along the lines of the whole "weapon vs. gun" thing?

[jf]

mediageek:

I think thoreau was taking a cheap shot at me, but I probably think that because I'm so vain.

And you got it right, thoreau, because one is for fighting and one is for fun.

[Jennifer]

I guess the cops figure the people of New Orleans haven't lost enough already.

[deron]

It's my impression that police in general don't like guns, and will take any opportunity as an excuse to take them out of the equation.

[mediageek]

thoreau-

No, I was playing off of the fact that gun-control activists are generally offensively incompetent about being able to identify whether a particular firearm is a rifle, pistol, or shotgun, let alone make, model, or actual performance capability.

The common refrain from most such folks is that any firearm that they don't like is either an AK47 or an UZI.

The ones with more than two synapses to rub together will occasionally deign to identify something as a TEC-9.

[Kwix]

First off, they are forcibly evacuating people AFTER they start pumping water out of the city. Secondly, if I were in a safe place, with food and water to last for a month or so (as a few folks are) and want to stay it out, then the government should respect my wishes. If I have a shotgun for personal protection from looters and rapists, then all the better for my situation. The time to forced evac. would have been before the storm, before the flooding, not now.

[joe]

wellfellow,

I was commenting on what would be a rather extraordinary fact - that private citizens in the hire of other private citizens, in the continental United States, are trooping around with automatic rifles.

I suspect the Times just got sloppy, and misidentified the rifles.

[Isaac Bartram]

No civilians in New Orleans will be allowed to carry pistols, shotguns, or other firearms of any kind, said P. Edwin Compass...

When will the cops give theirs up then? I guess only the Guard and the 82nd airborne get to keep theirs. The Coast Guard's a grey area:)

Sore point with me. But I suppose with sufficient misuse a word eventually aquires a new meaning and old fogies like me will just have to get with the program.

[Jennifer]

And thanks to the evil beauty of "sovereign immunity," if someone is forced to leave his undamaged home and returns later to find it's been picked clean of his worldly possessions, he can't even hold responsible the bastards who forced him out! "We won't guard your property, citizen, and we won't let you guard it either."

[Ayatollah Usoe]

This is somewhat of a no-brainer. There are cops from several states, varying departments within those states, basically free-ranging. Anything they can confiscate and FedEx back home is free. How do we tell the bad guys from the good ones?

[mediageek]

Oh, in other news, apparently New Mexico is running background checks on the refugees, without first getting their consent.

Link to KOAT story.

[Lowdog]

I made the prediction to my roomate yesterday that it will only be a matter of time before the police/nat guard/whatever try to "forcibly remove" someone who doesn't want to go and who is armed, a firefight ensues, and people end up dead.

How in the fuck can they justify taking people's guns? I'm sure joe has some great excuse for the po-po, but I'd be pissed, too. As Matt points out, what if your home/business didn't get flooded and most of your shit was still there? I'd be packing to make sure I could keep it. And even if there's still the threat of disease, it would take someone a while to get their stuff loaded into a suitable vehicle so they could evacuate. During that time, I'd like to be able to hold onto my stuff.

[Kwix]

Hey, does anybody know if ANY forces, police or military, in the US use AK-47s? I have read several news pieces recently that state that "police carrying AK-47s" or "National Guard carrying AK-47s" , blah, blah, blah. I am not trying to be contrary, but I would think that on the reliability front, even Police departments would shy away from AKs.

[Jason Ligon]

Just for kicks, it is worth a glance at Blackwater's website. I feel weird linking it from work, but it is interesting. Google will get you there.

They are, no poo, building a private army. You can sign up for 'boot camp', after which you get a guaranteed contract from them to perform security services in sunny locations around the world.

[Jason Ligon]

"I am not trying to be contrary, but I would think that on the reliability front, even Police departments would shy away from AKs."

AK is more reliable than AR in more environments. AR has much better barrel options and is more versatile in configuration. There are police departments that use AK derivatives in semi auto only.

[mediageek]

Kwix-

None that I've ever come across.
Most police departments, through various governmental programs are able to buy AR15 or M16 rifles at extremely discounted prices. I don't have a cite for it, but I seem to recall that they can get them at around $400 or so.

Barring the purchase of AR-derived models, you'll often see cops toting Ruger Mini-14 and AC556's.

The only places I've seen reference to the US gov't buying Kalashnikovs is with regard to arming foreigners, like the new Iraqi police force/army.

[thoreau]

FWIW, tonight Mr. Nice Guy and I are going to the range again. Last time we tried a revolver and a Sig 9mm. This time we're thinking a .22 and a Glock 9mm. Rent as many as possible before we make buying decisions.

Might as well enjoy the 2nd amendment while praying that I never have a need for it.

[Kwix]

Thanks guys. The only reason I asked is because of articles like the one linked earlier from here "A Librarians Tale"

http://www.sdcitybeat.com/article.php?id=3542

Specifically mentioned "Military with thier AK-47s" and it struck me as fundementally wrong. Especially in this pork filled government of ours that insists on buying American, whether or not it is better to do so.

[mediageek]

The AR has much better ergonomics, as well.

[bob]

in looped footage of evacuating the convention center the cops all had either ar-15 or mini 14 rifles.

[David Rollins]

Puts a whole new spin on "class warfare". This is a disgrace.

My brother has a pass into Jeff. Parish, he's going in this weekend with intent to cross over the canal into Orleans (visiting friends who are high and dry). You can bet we'll be armed.

[Jason Ligon]

Thoreau:

Good idea. You will have covered:

A double action revolver

A quality DA/SA auto (remember the Sig with the heavy first trigger and very light follow up trigger? In the biz, that's Double Action / Single Action) Sig 229 is a very solid representative.

and tonight, the striker fired / 'Safe Action' auto in the form of the Glock. I'd try to compare the Glock 19 to the Springfield XD for the top two representatives of this field.

The only other thing I can think of to suggest is something like a Kahr Arms 9mm. It is a very small semi auto that fires with a light double action trigger pull every time. They are really versatile.

As I said earlier, my suggestion for a new shooter would be the Glock or Springfield XD in 9mm.

[mediageek]

Might as well enjoy the 2nd amendment while praying that I never have a need for it.

Amen.

Incidentally, if they've got one, consider renting a CZ75.

[Isaac Bartram]

Most police departments, through various governmental programs are able to buy AR15 or M16 rifles at extremely discounted prices.

There is a program that allows Police depts to get Military surplus items from DOD at preety much no charge. They, of course, have jumped at chance to acquire all kinds of goodies from full-auto M-16s to armored assault vehicles to helicopters.

There are horror stories of poorly trained officers mishandling M-16s.

[Jason Ligon]

"consider renting a CZ75"

One of the best feeling guns made. Fantastic grip. Hate that they don't have decocking lever of some sort, though.

[mediageek]

Jason-

Agreed, the ergos are great.
The CZ75 BD is a DA/SA model with a decocker.

[Lowdog]

JL - I like those Spingfield XD 9mm's myself. I love the way they feel in my hand. Fairly inexpensive, as well.

[mediageek]

The XD will cycle frangible ammunition, as well. One of the stages at the Rocky Mountain 3 Gun match involved picking up an XD, and engaging five steel popper targets at extremely close range*.

At the end of the day, the organizers announced that the XD had around 1000 rounds of frangible ammo put through it without a hiccup.

*hence the frangible ammo

[Jason Ligon]

Not coincidentally, the Springfield grip design was developed to be a polymer version of the CZ grip. I prefer the Springfield to the Glock mostly because of the improved grip and the ambidextrious safety (lefty here).

[Jason Ligon]

Not safety, magazine catch. I believe in clean slides and no safeties whenever possible.

[Jason Ligon]

BTW, Dave Bowie, in addition to being the most impressive shooter and tactician I've ever known, modifies glocks and XDs. Check out the metal stippling inserts he has on some of his XDs.

http://www.bowietacticalconcepts.com/btcpictures.html

[Jake]

What's so difficult to understand? Poor (likely black)? No guns for you!

The blackwater mercs should stay away from the bridges in NO though. Didn't bring them much luck in Iraq.

[Lowdog]

Thanks for the schooling, JL and mediageek. I bought one just because I liked the way it felt in my hand. It's a good, solid firearm. And, like I said, they're fairly cheap. I think I picked up the 4in, olive drab one for ~$450.

[peachy]

My favourite Glock is the 30 - a compact .45; it has a perfect grip for a guy my size, and the "rolling" recoil is more comfortable than the sharper recoil of a 9mm or .40 ...

[NathanB]

I saw the thing on CNN about CHiPs forcibly evacuating people. The mayor of NO says that evacuation is mandatory, but the governor says it's optional, so you've got some cops suggesting evac and others forcing it.

The people forced out on CNN were in safe dry buildings and they wanted to stick around to rebuild (they were a family of building contractors ).

Fucking cops, shouldn't they be busy keeping injured people in the Astrodome from getting painkillers?

Lessons from NO: a) live above sea level b) keep several weeks worth of water and non perishable food c) The linchpin of the Bill of Rights is the 2nd Amendment.

[Yo]

Might I suggest a Sig 226 or 229 with the "DAK" trigger option if you're looking for a DA or DAO style action. Very easy to shoot.

[Della]

Here's a depressingly depressing example of a forced evacuation of an old lady in New Orleans from a dry undamaged house: It's video, choose US Evacuations Continues - 08/09. They trick their way in to her home, tell her she has to leave, jump on top of her when it turns out the little old lady has a pistol, get her outside (with no belongings), tell her she can't go back inside and stick the weeping woman on the back of a truck heading away from her pretty nice home towards God knows where. The cops mouth sympathetic words, but what they have done is clearly far worse than leaving her alone, and if she winds up dead because of what they have done they won't shed a tear.

I thought the while thing was appalling, it is the sort of thing I would expect from a totaletarian country, not America.

[Dogzilla]

Slightly off-topic, but I noticed the Iraqi Constitution bans private ownership of guns. There was a time when conservatives would have seen that for what it is, the foundation of tyranny.

[thoreau]

Observations From My Second Trip To The Range

I tried a Glock 17. I liked it, but I think I was a little more accurate with the Sig last week. Then again, as a beginner I wasn't terribly accurate with either one. Mr. Nice Guy liked the .22 revolver that he rented. I liked it too, but I'm already learning to get accustomed to the 9mm. Which is probably a problem if I'm anticipating recoil and compensating, since it will just worsen my aim.

I liked the triggers on the Glock and Sig better than the revolver triggers that I've tried. They have more gradual pulls. I noticed that when I shot revolvers my shots tended to go downward a little.

I also got some dramatic lessons on why center of mass is better than headshots. I missed the head on the target about a third of the time, whereas almost all of my torso shots hit the torso. OK, not always centered, but still on torso. I'd rather inflict a relatively minor wound on a criminal than have the bullet go into the next apartment. Ideally I'd like to stop the criminal, of course, but any wound on a criminal is better than a dead neighbor.

Finally, loading a magazine is not easy. I need to build some strength, because by the 8th round that was about all I could do with ease. Wow, I feel like a wimp.

[Cliff]

Happiness is a couple of clips full of black talons.

[Kahn]

Might as well enjoy the 2nd amendment while praying that I never have a need for it.

If NO is any example, then if you ever really need it, they'll come and try taking it away from you anyway.

I always seemed to be a little more accurate with the SIG too, partly it feels better to me, partly the sights somehow seemed a little easier to "find" when I bring it up.

They are, no poo, building a private army.

So now, instead of needing enough to buy a gun, you need enough to buy your own little private army.

Ted Kennedy, of course, can afford his own little private army.

At the local university a couple years back, the cops one day showed up and evacuated the students, while forcing the faculty to go to their offices. They were held in their offices about four hours. No explanation.

The faculty later were told (a friend of mine is one of them) that there had been a bomb threat to the school, and the cops had been searching for it. This was never reported in the media, to my knowledge.

If I'd been one of the faculty under those conditions, I'd have been looking for a lawyer.

I have no faith in our gov't anymore. They've lost all semblence of humanity.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Della, apparently the clips won't work for those of us in the US. Still makes my blood boil.

[mediageek]

Note: Link goes directly to video clip.
You will need the DIVX CODEC to be able to see it.

Free DIVX player download

Link to ABC World tonight about door-to-door gun confiscation in New Orleans.

[Larry A]

When will the cops give theirs up then? I guess only the Guard and the 82nd airborne get to keep theirs. The Coast Guard's a grey area:)

Sore point with me. But I suppose with sufficient misuse a word eventually aquires a new meaning and old fogies like me will just have to get with the program.

The word "civilian" isn't actually being misused. Cops used to be civilians; but you can't fight a war on drugs with civilian cops.

Give Barney Fyfe an M-16 and an armored personnel carrier, and he won't be a civilian any more.

[kris]

thoreau,

Don't feel bad about loading magazines, their a bitch for just about anyone. If you you buy a glock, it comes with a plastic piece that slides over the magazine and compresses the spring as you load. I've found them to be very awkward, but you don't kill your fingers. During a lengthy shooting sesion I usually just end up with blisters rather than use one. Anyway, the glock 17 is an excellent pistol but, I would still recomend trying out the springfield XD & CZ 75, both which have far better grip design (in my opinion). In fact, the CZ is a much heavier steel frame and won't have the same felt recoil you get from a lighter weight polimer fram gun like a glock, so try it in a larger caliber like .40 s&w. As far as recoil in general, the trick is to suprise yourself every time, that way you don't unsconciously(or consciously) compensate for anticipated recoil(which fuck up your aim)

[kris]

only a few punctuation & grammatical errors there.
sorry 😉

[DM]

Checked out the Blackwater site for the private army recruitment effort. Seems it requires a minimum of 4 years in the "Armed Forces", plus an honorable discharge. Damn.

[kris]

thoreau,

Regarding .22's, revolvers are cool, especialy since many have interchangeable cylinders for .22 LR and .22 magnum, very cool. I do seem to recall on an earlier post that you were considering a .22 for target practice(for which a revolver would be perfectly fine). I recommend any of the Ruger mark II/markIII guns. they are semi automatic, accurate, reliable and fun, plus .22 ammo is dirt cheap. Beretta also has a similar .22 which I haven't got to try yet, but there is an available carbine kit for it (yes!!), and it's cheaper than the Ruger.

[Kris]

And to address the issue at hand..

1) People are being removed from their homes by force.

Duh!! It's for their own good!

2) People, while being forced to leave their homes are also being forced to surrender their firearms (even if legally registered)

Duh!! Are any of them cops, military, FBI or any other GOVERNMENT law enforcement officials? Well are they? Any one?

*crickets*

I didn't think so. Feels like I'm talkin' to kindergardners 🙂

[Dan]

kris

the flaw in your logic is you feel you know what is best for me and thus you have the right to take away my firearms and kick me out my house

both are unconstitutional acts

suppose we reciprocate and decide what is best for you and you do not agree ??

the slippery slope has been started and this administration has done nothing but add more oil

[Jennifer]

People are being removed from their homes by force. Duh!! It's for their own good!

Yes, and the War on Drugs demonstrates the happy things that always happen when the police force people to do things for their own good.

[David Rollins]

I carry a Glock 23 as my bread & butter personal protection. If the shorter grip version were available back in 1991 I would have bought it -- I don't really need the 12-round clip that for a while made it a grandfathered "assault weapon".

I've since realised that the .45 caliber, while a slower round, probably has more stopping power while being less likely to injure a bystander. I think there's a 5-round .45 Glock that I'm tempted to buy -- very concealable, the Glock 23 rubs me the wrong way in my waistband if I forget the holster.

I must confess, however, that I'm bothered by the lack of a safety. I prefer to keep a round in the chamber, so I'd be more comfortable with a safety or a double action semi-automatic; will have to check out the suggestions mentioned here, thanks. My father carries a .38 revolver with an internal hammer, which I think is a good compromise.

And as a followup to an earlier thread a few months back regarding shotguns, I took mediageek's suggestion and combed thehighroad.org discussion boards for advice. I settled on a Benelli SBE semi-automatic shotgun. Works great at the skeet range, and I keep it under the bed with 2 3/4" 00 buck (will switch to #1 buck when I find it on sale). I'm going into New Orleans this weekend with a Beretta 390 semi-auto shotgun, and the aforementioned Glock.

[JD]

Coming late to the party as usual, but - if you get a chance to try out a Heckler & Koch USP, do so. Loved that pistol. I'd have one if I didn't live in a fascist hellhole of a city. Maybe if I get real rich and famous and become a personal friend of the mayor they'll let me own one someday.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Yeah, like t, it was my second time ever shooting a handgun. I had really mixed feelings about the .22 revolver I rented. I felt like a wimp with the little bullets and "pop pop", but my accuracy was clearly 100% better. At my first outing, when I was firing a .38 revolver and a 9 mm pistol, I simply embarassed myself. All my shots go very low.

t is pretty good with a 9mm. He thought the laser sight on it was irritating, but I thought it was pretty damned cool.. not that it seemed to help my accuracy much.

I know I'm still very green, but I'm frustrated by my total suckage at anything higher then a .22 I would welcome all advice 🙂

[Mr. Nice Guy]

little "rounds", not bullets. Sorry!!

[Isaac Bartram]

The word "civilian" isn't actually being misused. Cops used to be civilians; but you can't fight a war on drugs with civilian cops.

Yeah that's it, isn't it? I just remember when the word was just as a sort of jargon by cops. Now they just don't know the difference.

It just pisses me off that within the second half of my lifetime I have seen Officer Friendly morph into Officer Psycho.

[thoreau]

Dude, the only problem I have with the .22 is that I'm developing all these bad habits with the 9mm. That's not a put-down of you.

[Dorrin]

Thoreau (and others interested in guns) - here's a few general pointers and things to keep in mind about handgunning.

General Note #1 - Gun enthusiasts are, generally speaking, a tribal group. Each caliber and platform has it's die-hard adherents and haters. Keep that in mind when soliciting advice...

1) Caliber considerations - personally, I think 9mm (9x19, that is) is the optimum '1st gun' for someone with little shooting experience. Why? A) limited recoil - it has the least recoil of 'serious' calibers, which helps new shooters avoid bad habits like flinch and anticipation; B) low price - 9x19 is the cheapest handgun cartridge (apart from .22LR) which means you can practice a LOT without breaking the bank. $20 will buy you 250 rds of 9x19 at Academy Sports in Tejas, whereas that same $20 will buy you 100 rds of .45 or .40.

.45, .40, .357sig, etc. are all good cartridges in their own ways, but they each have drawbacks for a new shooter, in my opinion.

2) platform consideration - the big choices here are 1) full size vs compact, 2) steel frame vs polymer/alloy, and 3) action type (SA, DA/SA, DAO, etc.) For new shooters I personally think full-size, steel-frame autos are the best choice. Why? The extra length and weight limits the perceived recoil (helping to build good shooting habits.) As for action type, there are good and bad aspects to each. I generally lean towards a consistent trigger pull platform - either a SA setup (1911, Hi-Power) or a DAO/Striker-fired action (Glock, XD, DAO Sig/Ruger/etc.) Why? Simplicity of operation - DA/SA guns can have some pretty weird manuals of arms, although there are a couple of exceptions that can be carried 'cocked and locked', effectively making them SA guns (CZ75B, Taurus PT92 are the only two I'm aware of that have this capability.) If you go the DAO route, I lean towards Glocks/Kahrs/XDs over DAO variants of DA/SA guns - most DAO variants have truly abominable triggers, compared to Glocks etc.

As for reliability, any major manufacturer's products (with a handful of specific exceptions, like the godforsaken S&W Sigma) are going to be reliable out of the box. I've owned about 12 different handguns by different manufacturers, and the only one that ever gave me trouble was a cheap Browning clone from Argentina that had a mis-cut extractor channel in the slide.

And, for the inevitable 'which gun' answer to the question you didn't ask 😉 ...

I really like Browning Hi-Powers - proven design, very slim (making it easy to conceal,) 13+ capacity, laser accurate. If cocked&locked makes you uncomfortable, FN makes a variant with the 'Safe Fast Shooting' system that turns the safety into a 'cocking lever' and allows for hammer-down carry, while retaining all the good points of a SA trigger.

Lastly, practice practice practice! I've been into handguns seriously for about 5 years now, and it took 2 years of regular practice (twice a month, 100+ rounds) to get to the 'one hole in the target' place.

Email me if you have any questions -

[Jason Ligon]

Egad, they gave you a laser sight? The dealer was trying to wow you with Hollywood there. They don't do much of anything.

If you are shooting low, there could be a couple of things wrong with your grip, but the most common problem is 'slapping' the trigger on single action shots and 'jerking' the trigger on heavier double action shots. All trigger pulling actions should be a smooth pressing motion with the pad of your finger.

On a semi auto like the sig or glock, try this:

Make sure you are aligned with your head behind the weapon (duh you say, but many people try to bring their heads down to the gun instead of bringing the gun up, and head alignment isn't achieved that way), put only the pad of your finger up to the first knuckle on the trigger, take a breath, exhale, and press the pad of your finger back toward your palm. The Glock has 'slop' in the trigger. You will be pressing against nothing for a short distance. Go ahead and take up the slack, then think about PRESSING the trigger. When the slide cycles, try to slowly release the trigger. You will feel a click before the trigger is all the way back out.

What you want to try to do is train your self to press, release only until the click, and press again, all without any jerking motions.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Dorrin & JL:

Thanks!

t:

Dude, of course you weren't busting on me! I know you well enough: you are a high-roader, in that you rarely allow yourself to utter anything more harsh then an amicable zinger. Unlike me.

Jeez, we're getting like Jeff and Jennifer here 🙂

[Mr. Nice Guy]

JL:

Thanks again. I think maybe that's what I'm doing.. putting my head down to the weapon.

I also notice that a higher calibur pistol jerks like hell in my hand. However, I worry about expending too much effort in resisting that action, or anticipating it. So far, a catch .22 (heh heh).

[thoreau]

Jeez, we're getting like Jeff and Jennifer here 🙂

If you keep saying things like that I'll have to go to the range by myself. What would people think? What would my wife think?

Jason-

Thanks for the tips.

[thoreau]

Oops, meant to thank Dorrin too.

[Jason Ligon]

MNG:

There are lots of different theories on how to hold a firearm. There is a particular way that offers a heck of a lot of control over the alternatives. I probably can't explain a 'high thumbs' grip without pictures, but the gist is:

1) The higher your dominant hand is on the grip, the more control you will have.

2) After you get the dominant hand high on the weapon, wrap your supporting hand around the other side with four fingers under the trigger guard on the front of the grip and the thumb of your supporting hand point straight at the target and resting along the slide. I promise this position will not hurt your thumb when you fire. I think about The Thumb of Death, where the deadly digit is the thumb of your non primary hand. It points where the gun points. The thumb of your shooting hand rests on top of the thumb on your supporting hand, also generally pointing forward. Looking at your hands, you can see where the 'hight thumbs' name comes from.

3) The grip on your primary hand should be a firm handshake, while the grip on your supporting hand should be more firm. Loose trigger hand, tight support hand.

4) Lock both elbows out and lean your shoulders foward. This is not the Weaver stance that many very good shooters use. Weaver is basically a one hand grip with stabilizing support to allow you to line up your sights without wobbling, whereas this posture is designed from start to finish with the idea of controlling recoil. Both arms are shock absorbers when extended, and the aggressive shoulders prevent the gun from pushing your torso around. It is about as solid a platform as you can get.

[stubby]

My husband is the gun authority, so I'll move on to the other part of the post...forced evacuations.

Normally of course I don't buy into the "for your own good" (no, I haven't read JS's book yet, but I do own it) model of government. But - considering the fact, and it does seem to be a fact and not just hysterical fearmongering, that the standing water in NOLA has already begun to sicken people and the chances of disease will only increase, is it in the public's interests to force everyone out before NOLA becomes a cesspool of contagion? Not necessarily for the residents' own good, but for everyone else's? And wouldn't it be difficult, if not impossible, to begin remediation of the city with people still living there? If some old person insists on living in a dilapidated firetrap of a house stuffed with 50 years' worth of newspapers, that's their right. But insisting on living in a likely cholera pool?

I can't even imagine what Ponchartrain will be like for the next 50 years. When I was in high school 25 years ago, it wasn't considered safe; of course we got in it when we were drunk, but only when drunk.

[Dorrin]

Nice Guy - what grip are you using? Also, how big are your hands?

A lot of the time when new shooters have recoil issues, the problem can be solved by changing your grip style, and/or finding a gun better suited to your hand size and shape. Also, a rubberized grip with finger grooves (Hogues are particularly good) can help a lot in the department, especially if you have thin hands, which can get chewed up by the angles on stock grips.

I've always found the Mod. Weaver grip to be best - fully extended right arm, right hand holding pistol, left arm bent at elbow, left hand wrapped around right, thumb pointing down the slide same direction as trigger finger (your trigger finger is off the trigger, right? Always remember the 4 rules)

Too bad you guys are way out in VA - if ya'll ever get down to Austin, TX let me know and I'll bring my arsenal to the local range...

[Dorrin]

Jason makes a very good point regarding the Isoceles stance - I don't use it, because Weaver is more accurate for me, but it is better at taming recoil.

As for the high-thumbs gripping, beware hammer bite! I have very little 'web' between my thumb and trigger finger, but those that have more can get a nasty pinch from the hammer when it resets if they let their grip get too high. Might not be a problem for you, but be cognizant of the danger. Er, this isn't a problem with Glocks and the like, since they don't have hammers 😉

[Jennifer]

Stubby--

If you're worried about sick New Orleanians spreading their diseases into the population at large, I can think of no more efficient way to accomplish this than to force the sick, contagious people into an already-crowded refugee shelter.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Fellas:

Thanks yet again. This advice will really help me.

One thing that really struck me as a newbie is how FREAK'N LOUD those higher caliber weapons are at the indoor range, even with ear protection. Is it because of all the hard surfaces? Or does one risk blowing their eardrums out if they fire one of these things indoors without the ear protection?

And I've heard this said before, but it really dawned on me how inaccurate someone can be with a pistol if they don't know what they're doing. And how can those action heroes in movies hit anything using double pistols and/or that stupid "homeboy" side-grip?

[mediageek]

Dorrin and Jason are both spot on.

If you're consistently shooting low/high/left/right/etc. consider printing out a

[stubby]

Jennifer: good point. But for some reason - and I'm not saying I'm right, or that I have any philosophical or intellectual justification for feeling this way - in this case, forcing people out of their homes doesn't strike me as being as abhorrent as it normally would.

Using the NOLA police to do it IS abhorrent. Those guys have a well deserved rep for brutality, corruption and incompetence. On the other thread where we've discussed the reliability/unreliability of the tales of murder and rape and mayhem? I can well believe the stories of the NOLA cops forcing refugees back at gunpoint or driving right past them without stopping to assist.

[mediageek]

Er, that link should be Diagnostic pistol target"

[Jennifer]

Stubby--

Nonetheless, I have serious problems with the government forcing ADULTS to do things for their own good.

Also, if I were a New orleans resident with an undamaged but uninsured house, I'd rather take my chances with illness than having my home looted in my absence. There are plenty of cheap, effective drugs to cure dysentery, but I know of no drug that will make vanished property reappear in a looted house.

[mediageek]

Or does one risk blowing their eardrums out if they fire one of these things indoors without the ear protection?

Firing a gun without hearing protection will cause hearing damage, but it is cumulative. If you ever find yourself in a position where you shoot an intruder in your home, you will lose a bit of hearing. Personally, this is one of the reasons why I think sound suppressors should be de-regulated.

Personal anecdote: I once touched off a round out of a MAK 90 (Chinese-made semi-auto AK clone) without any hearing protection in, and my ears rang for an hour or two afterwards.

When shooting at an indoor range, a lot of people will double up on hearing protection, using both earplugs and muffs. If you do this, consider picking up a pair of Dillon or Peltor electronic ear muffs. They have microphones built into them so that you can hear people talking, but are wired into a circuit that cuts the mics out if there is sound above a certain decibel level. They're expensive, but worth the price.

[stubby]

Just thought of something else (and saw it on Instapundit). The rich folks in NOLA have hired private security guards to keep their property safe and I'm pretty sure that those guards will not have their weapons confiscated. As Cam Edwards points out - rich folks can protect themselves, poor folks can't. Now, I have no way to prove this, but I bet that under similar circumstances this would not happen, or at least not in this way, elsewhere. If Houston were massively flooded, altho the gummint might try to force us out, it would not attempt to disarm us. And even in less gun-happy jurisdictions, I don't think the class treatment differences would be so stark. But NOLA, as we can see, still operates in an antebellum mindset - it always has, really. The rest of the South, even Mississippi, at least pretends not to think that way any more. (A few years back the Texas GOP had their annual meeting here. The New Black Panthers staged a march in which they carried rifles (or shotguns) - all legally licensed. Some people were upset about this, but the police explained that it's not against the law to display a firearm if you've got the requisite permits, so long as you did not "brandish" it, and they didn't, so they could.)

All of which goes to illustrate one of my mom's favorite phrases when we lived in Louisiana, which was "...except in Louisiana." She was a legal secretary and was constantly exasperated at the intricacies (and lunacies) of the Napoleonic Code. This led to the wider observation that, whatever you think might be applicable to life, the law, economics, whatever, in the rest of the U.S., you should always mentally add "...except in Louisiana."

[mediageek]

WRT forced evacuation, I suppose I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it if they had actually declared martial law.

Under those circumstances, I wouldn't like it, but at least it would be within a legally defined framework that defines the situation as being extraordinary.

[Stevo Darkly]

Jeez, we're getting like Jeff and Jennifer here 🙂

If you keep saying things like that I'll have to go to the range by myself. What would people think? What would my wife think?

Dear Abby: Guns and the Internet destroyed my marriage ...

[mediageek]

Goddammit, Stevo, I really hate it when you post something that hits close to home.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Stevo:

Good one 🙂

[Jason Ligon]

"As for the high-thumbs gripping, beware hammer bite! I have very little 'web' between my thumb and trigger finger, but those that have more can get a nasty pinch from the hammer when it resets if they let their grip get too high."

Bingo. And this is why, when I get my Hi Power, it will be heavily modified. That nasty spurred hammer most come with is horrid for high thumbs.

Sigs are fine, Berettas are fine, HKs are fine (I currently carry a P2000 DA/SA). Beefy hands can also get caught by the slide on glocks, which is why a lot of people put beavertails on them after market bowie tactical concepts has pics of those, too.

Why do it, then? High hold makes a huge difference in rapid fire and ability to control heavy recoil. No matter what you are shooting, hold as high as you can get away with. If you have a gun that doesn't allow you to grip very high, consider changing guns. It is that big of a deal, at least to me.

Dr. T can work out why! Recoil is a conservation of momentum problem in the chamber of the firearm. MV out of the barrel = MV for the slide coming back. The 'flip' of the muzzle during recoil is torque created by the slide being higher than your wrists when it comes striaght back. The vertical distance between your wrist (the pivot point)and the center of the slide is the moment arm of the rotation (i.e. the length of the wrench in your toolbox). Shorten the moment arm, reduce the torque. Another implication of the physics is that guns with short slides tend to flip less than guns with tall slides, all other things being equal.

[peachy]

David Rollins - the slim-line .45 is the Glock 36...