Who's Number Two on FEMA's Suggested List of Charities?

Would you believe an organization run by Pat Robertson?

Speaking of help, I have a really dumb question that maybe some of you smart people can answer -- how come there haven't been 20,000 or 100,000 helicopters over New Orleans evacuating people like crazy since the moment the storm broke? Is this country short on helicopters and ropes? Is there a finite number, already reached, that can fly in the same airspace at the same time? Speaking as an ignorant, it sure seems like the worst-case-scenario planning left something to be desired.

Comments

[Matt]

Because the victims are black homosexual SUV drivers.

[MP]

Helicopters are extremely expensive to operate. Are you suggesting the government should have commandeered the nation's private fleet, forcing them to donate their time and resources to this rescue effort?

[Stretch]

No, no, no. It's clearly because of airspace restrictions. That and the long queues at helicopter fueling stations.

[Matt Welch]

MP -- I'm not "suggesting" much of anything; just asking. But now that you mention it, why *couldn't* there be a worst-case-scenario plan that included, I don't know, a huge list of volunteer private pilots who'd be promised to have their expenses paid? Or X number of military helicopters?

[Kwix]

Why helicopters? Why not grab a bunch of airboats from the bayous and from the Everglades? Danged things run in like 4 inches of water and hold 5 ppl. I see a business opportunity here. Give the government a run for thier money. Save tax dollars too!!

[ed]

Being shot at whenever they try to land is not much of an incentive either. The Big Easy has become Mogadishu.

[philip.elliott]

Actually, Kwix, a lot of airboats from all over western south LA are in New Orleans right now doing just that.

[jf]

They would have sent Airwolf, but the pilot is indisposed.

[Kwix]

Danged! Well, it was worth a shot. I hadn't seen anything other than the typical slow moving bass boats in the media. Was thinking a quick water taxi service. You know, paint the boats yellow and black, throw lights on 'em.

[Dynamist]

Stretch has it. The trouble is not the number of helos or pilots, but how many you can service within the operating area. Keeping aircraft flying takes a lot of support. And you have to have someplace for all the rescued to go.

I genuinely believe most people do not grasp how big the storm was, and how much is rendered at least temporarily unusable over an enormous area.

[Eric II]

Funny, I had the same thought. Helicopters would also be useful for dealing with the shortages of food, drinkable water, etc. I was also wondering why they haven't brought in a fleet of ships to take some of the refugees to other ports along the Gulf.

It seems to me that a lot of the people responsible for dealing with the situation, whether at the local, state, or federal level, are still at least partially in a state of shock. Like when my compputer desk suddenly collapsed and fell apart a couple of years ago in a thunderous crash, and I just stood there for a minute, looking at the enormous mess of electronics, boards, cables, peripherals, books, and papers around me.

[Jennifer]

how come there haven't been 20,000 or 100,000 helicopters over New Orleans evacuating people like crazy since the moment the storm broke?

This doesn't exactly answer the question, but CNN reports that FEMA has temporarily suspended rescue operations because some of the people trapped in the city are vile animals who have been attacking the ambulances and rescue boats, and even shooting at helicopters.

[Kami Toishi]

As much as I love lewrockwell.com, I'm not sure that holds true. If the MSM reports are correct, 60%-80% of National Guard resources in AL, LA, and MI are available for deployment....

[Girth]

The question I was wondering about yesterday was this: What about the news choppers? Those assholes were shooting footage of people waving for help.

[dpotts]

This is exactly what I've been wondering all day. Why on earth can't the guard set up perimiters of relative order where helicopters can at least try to get in and airlift people out of that hellhole AROUND THE CLOCK. We can over-run a small nation with our troops in a matter of days, but can't airlift people out of one of our own cities? IMHO, they should have been airlifting folks out since Monday. Even if it's one chopper at a time at three or four locations around the city, at least the people there will know that they will be able to get out before too long. The whole situation is disgusting to me. They're the National freaking Guard... they are supposed to be put in harm's way when the time arises.

[AML]

Poor organization. Very poor. There are private companies with heavy lift helicopters available, but as of yesterday, they hadn't even been contacted.
FEMA has been reorganized to deal with the perpetual shadow-threat of terrorism, and is not longer capable of dealing with true disasters. Not that it was ever that great.

[Matt Welch]

Another talking-out-my-ass idea -- If there is such a thing as the Merchant Marine (whereby, if I understand it -- and I probably don't -- basically everyone who pilots a boat is supposed to carry a gun & help out in law-enforcement emergencies), why not have a Merchant Helicopter Force, at least on a volunteer basis?

[Brian]

Jebus, Pat Robertson? These guys just don't care anymore. Any no bid contracts for Haliburton yet? Bet they can supply toilet paper or something (after the requisite 300% markup).

[Jennifer]

At the very least, if you don't have enough helicopters to get people out, then use helicopters to airdrop food and water in. From what I've been reading, there's nothing edible or drinkable left in the Superdome, and everything else is running out fast. When the hell did we become the type of country whose citizens die of hunger or dehydration right before our eyes on the fucking television? (And that question was NOT meant as a dig against any politicians or political parties. I seriously want to know.)

[Phil Collins]

...Nor, needless to say, do I or anybody making the Iraq claim know whether all or most or too many or even one of the Louisiana National Guard's helicopters has in fact been sent to Iraq...

No, we are making the less controversial claim that the money spenyin Iraq could have been better spent on disaster prep for New Orleans. Whether we are talking about state helicopters that got re-allocated or state helicopters that never got bought in the first place -- it amounts to the same.

Good thread, Mr. Welch!

[Brian]

Jebus, Pat Robertson? These guys just don't care anymore.

Any no bid contracts for Haliburton yet? Bet they can supply toilet paper or something (after the requisite 300% markup).

[dw]

For the love of God how difficult can it be to airdrop bottled water & MREs into the City? Hell, drop rafts of these goods near the levee breach and let them drift through the city; they'll wash up somewhere where they'll be welcome.

How long does it take to organize a Dunkirk style evacuation by truck to at least get these refugees to some place with water, food, and working toilets? Commandeer every school bus, flat bed, and pick up in the region. Is there a shortage of pick up trucks in LA? Is there some shortage of watercraft in the remainder of LA? We're watching Lord of the Flies unfold in the Crescent City.

[joe]

Bush's FEMA Director was - get this - an estate lawyer before being appointed to manage the largest emergency management organization in the world.

"I was also wondering why they haven't brought in a fleet of ships to take some of the refugees to other ports along the Gulf." That one's easy. So much land - land with buildings and highway overpasses and whatnot - is flooded that people can't get to what used to be the docks, or anywhere close to areas that are safe for ships to operate within.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

They stopped sending helicopters after someone tried to shoot an evac helicopter down.

Of course, the whole stinking mess can be laid at the feet of the government, as usual. What a bunch of dirtbag putzes.

[Realist]

The water is receding now so it seems to me evacuation should be a secondary concern. What I don't understand is how food and water couldn't have been air dropped in immediately. It's puzzling to me how people could be dying from dehydration in 100 degree heat.

[Jennifer]

At the very least, if you don't have enough helicopters to get people out, then use helicopters to airdrop food and water in. From what I've been reading, there's nothing edible or drinkable left in the Superdome, and everything else is running out fast. When the hell did we become the type of country whose citizens die of hunger or dehydration right before our eyes on the fucking television? (And that question was NOT meant as a dig against any politicians or political parties. I seriously want to know.)

[keith]

Other than citizens on the ground who feel the need to take shots at them (I blame that entire on Grand Theft Auto, of course), is there an official order that keeps would-be do-gooder piots from swooping in?

Even then, logistical complications arise: where do you go with the people you pick up? Where do you land? What do you do when your helicopter is swarmed by 1000 people?

During WWII, private citizen pilots realized that with so many resources overseas, the coast of America was easy pickings for German U-Boats. So Civil Air Patrol was formed, and they all strapped bombs to their Cessnas and dropped them on submarines from time to time, free of charge.

But I think a privately run volunteer airlift out of New Orleans would quickly turn into a disaster, with news helicopters shooting lots of video of private helicopters sitting on the ground in flames where out of control crowds had gotten even further out of control.

[Matt Welch]

My comment was swallowed, but here's another half-baked idea -- why not have a helicopter version of the Merchant Marine? Make it voluntary or whatever, but have a mobilizable force....

[Russ D]

The big problem I can see is that a helicopter might be able to take 4 people at a time at most. But how are you going to designate which 4 go on this copter, these 4 on that one... I just envision a stampede and as soon as someone gets pissed off that they aren't the ones taken, they start attacking.

[D Anghelone]

Helicopters are as apt to blow people off of rooftops as to 'pluck' them.

Helicopters landing in floods makes for DXed helicopters.

Shallow draft boats might be the best bet.

[Tom Crick]

To me, the big question is why the levee wasn't designed to withstand a category 5 hurricane.

...The Army Corp of Engineers has plenty of time and resources to inspect my projects for tractor puddles that may have developed brine shrimp, but they don't have the time and resources to make sure that a hurricane inflicted levee breach doesn't wipe out the city of New Orleans?

[Morat]

It doesn't help that the current head of FEMA -- and his predecessor -- have absolutely no training, experience, or knowledge of the sorts of things FEMA is for.

They're clueless, and FEMA got folded into Homeland Security, which apparently never bothered to do even the basic planning a badly-led FEMA did.

As for assets -- I'm guessing they're available, they're just not being utilized because the people currently running FEMA are screwups.

A halfway competent disaster manager (someone Congress should insist run a government program devoted to managing disasters, not the estate lawyer that Bush appointed) would have had assets prepositioned -- they had 36 hours, minimum, where it was certain New Orleans was going to take a hit of some sort and that somewhere in Louisiana or Missippi would see a Cat 4 or 5 hit -- yet they didn't get hospital ships moving, arrange for buses to help with the mandatory evacuation, or do anything but sit on their asses.

Hell, you'd think SOMEONE would have noticed Greyhound shutting down on Saturday, or the fact that airlines weren't flying people out of New Orleans -- because they didn't want to fly empty planes in.

FEMA's almost always been a dumping ground for patronage. Clinton appointed someone with experience, at least, and I wish to God Bush had done the same. The levees still would have broken (there would have been bad flooding even if NO had gotten the funding they requested for flood control) and there still would have been chaos, but there might have been a whole lot less if someone with a clue had been running the damn organization.

As for the availability of the National Guard: I don't have the numbers at hand, but given that they were yanking cops off of S&R to keep order, they're flying in Guard and Guard equipment from other states, and the Coast Guard seems to be doing a lot of the Guard's job -- I'm guessing the bulk of the Lousiana National Guard is deployed. I've been watching the news, and I haven't been seeing the usual sort of Guard response.

[joe]

Mr. Crick, the Army Corps have been begging the administration for money to build up the levees for years. good info on andrewsullivan.com

Morat, Clinton's FEMA Director actually was an expert at emergency management.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Jennifer already said it so I won't try again.

Sheezus, between Reason's server and mine it is dam near impossible to post anything on this website.

Tom is more than right. The Corps of Engineers has had 50 plus years to ensure that the Nu Awlins levies could withstand a Cat 5 hurricane.

[jimmy]

Almost no civilian helos have winches and even fewer civilian pilots have anywhere near the experience to try it. I'd love to blame this one on our government's crusade for mideast democracy, but it's really just poor planning. You know, right now, some Somalian beggar is laughing at the stupid first world peons.

[GILMORE]

On the first point -

Yeah, you know, I'm organizing a bit of a music-fundraiser in my neighborhood (Williamsburg Brooklyn) to help raise money for relief efforts...since every musician alive owes something, at least, to New Orleans... and I was browsing the FEMA-recommended charities to see who we'd choose to donate to (probably just a grand or two really, but it's something)...and I was rather surprised by the prominent positioning of "Operation Blessing" or whatever it was called. I checked it out, and going over their experience, thought it wasnt nearly as professional and developed an organization as i'd expect from it's position (right underneath red cross?) as far as 'recommended' charities.... I quickly nixed it, though ended up thinking the Mennonite Disaster Service was probably a good group to fund. (They seem more action-oriented, and less bloated an institution than red cross)

But as far as the Robertson thing goes... is there a story here? Are semi-competent organizations getting funding for Katrina due to political connections? I'd be interested in how Project Blessing or whatever it was called ever showed up on FEMA, and why it was one of the few 'top' organizations. Is this group already on the ground in the region at all? Also, has robertson or anyone connected with him been ringing the 'it's gods punishment' bell? Are these really the kind of sympathetic people we want working on the ground there??

As far as choppers go... dude. I just dont think anyone was ready for this thing, despite the early warnings and 'worst case' planning. I think they were probably equipped for a mid to light case, and just hoped for it.

JG

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahh, joe said it, so it must be true. Blame Bush.

[BB]

Why isn?t every available military vehicle within 1,000 miles of the area being loaded with every available MRE and driven to the closest overpass in NO and unloaded? Why is that hard? If buses are taking people from the Superdome to Texas, why can?t food and water be brought in? Where are the tent cities? It has been days...

[joe]

"Ahh, joe said it, so it must be true. Blame Bush.

Comment by: Anonymous Coward"

I'm afraid the facts have an anti-Bush bias, Aptly Named Piece of Crap.

And I'm afraid you're going to be hearing a lot more about those facts over the next few months.

[Eric II]

So much land - land with buildings and highway overpasses and whatnot - is flooded that people can't get to what used to be the docks, or anywhere close to areas that are safe for ships to operate within.

You might be right about this, but the flooding came from the lake, not the river. Some of the areas adjacent to the river, such as the French Quarter, haven't been flooded as badly.

[Tom Crick]

"Mr. Crick, the Army Corps have been begging the administration for money to build up the levees for years. good info on andrewsullivan.com

Okay, I checked it out at andrewsullivan.com--they were talkin' about $2 million! ...They can't prioritize their budget to find a measly $2 million?! ...and now New Orleans is cesspool?

...and what about the brine shrimp--you know what I'm talkin' about, right? Relatively speaking, what makes brine shrimp so freakin' important? I've seen people shut down their construction sites rather than deal with... Planners know about what's goin' on with that, right?

Even if their budget was cut--for goodness sake--they should get their priorities straight!

[jf]

joe

An observation: you are consistently one of the best fact-based debaters on this board. However, it always seems like after a certain number of posts you drop an ad hominem. Is there a specific number, or does it depend on the topic?

[Dynamist]

Before one can use the port facilities, one must sure they were not damaged. One must be sure there is no debris in the channel, as well. If you get supplies onto the wharves, you still can't get them to the starving people without helos or flatboats.

If you check the local news, USA is dropping supplies to people where possible. Note that the Superdome was running out, not empty of supplies, and the idea of evacuating was that such was wiser than trying to keep people supplied in place.

[TJ_northwest]

Mr. Welch asks:

(Why couldn't there be) "...a huge list of volunteer private pilots who'd be promised to have their expenses paid?"

Well, there is the Civil Air Patrol. (www.cap.gov)
The are all volunteer, no pay.

A couple random notes:

Helos are way expensive to operate, 200/hr and up just for the little ones.

There are way more fixed wing CAP pilots than helo pilots.

Airspace restrictions over the disaster area are due to several problems: local FAA radio beacon stations are offline (submerged!), low level rescue puts aircraft below radar visibility, and without restrictions there would be too many sightseers.

CAP is responding, but this disaster dwarfs their resources.

TJ (PP-ASEL)

[MP]

To me, the big question is why the levee wasn't designed to withstand a category 5 hurricane.

I've heard this statement tossed around, but my understanding is that the breach was caused by the levee having to maintain too much water. Wind strength was not a factor in the breach. But I haven't looked into this in depth.

[Isaac Bartram]

MP

You are correct. Wind strength was not a factor in the breach. The levies faild because they were overtopped. The maximum winds had passed some hours earlier.

It is my understanding that the Lake side levies are lower than the riverside ones. But that is to be expected since Lk Ponchartrain is at 2-3' above sea level normally while the Mississippi is about 20' above sea level.

Again going by memory. Corrections if required.

[JimC]

I'm sure there will be questions asked in the coming month but jeez, what a lame pile of armchair quarterbacking here. Obviously there are boats, trucks, and helicopters being used, lots of them, duh. How can anyone actually watching the coverage not know that? The scale of the disaster is just so massive, extends so far beyond New Orleans, it's beyond any previously considered worst-case scenario. It _sounds_ like the support is finally starting to arrive in force today, IF that's the case I'm not sure how much faster that could have realistically happened.

[R C Dean]

No, we are making the less controversial claim that the money spenyin Iraq could have been better spent on disaster prep for New Orleans.

So could all the money that we sent in tsunami aid. For that matter, a tiny cut in the Medicare budget would pay for both, no problem.

And nobody was stopping the good city of NO and state of LA from spending their own damn money on their own city. People are claiming a measly $2mm would have done the job. Well, why didn't NO pony up its own self?

To me, the big question is why the levee wasn't designed to withstand a category 5 hurricane.

Because nobody wanted to pay for it. They went with hardening to Cat 3, and evacuation for everything above that. I believe that has been the plan for decades.

I'm afraid the facts have an anti-Bush bias.

How so? As far as I can tell, Bush continued the policies of his predecessors, as far as the Cat 3 hardening/evacuation plan went. Its not like he went in and weakened the levees, or made any changes at all Somehow he is to blame because the hurricane hit on his watch? Are we wandering off into Pat Robertson territory now, with the hurricane as some sort of punishment for re-electing GWB?

The deployment in Iraq did not materially affect the availability of anything that would make a difference in NO, as far as I can tell. The crappy evacuation was not a federal thing, it was a local thing. The problem with access has less to do with not enough trucks and choppers that it does with impassible roads and waterways.

Just what exactly sticks to Bush, here?

[friendofliberty]

A commenter wrote:

"Helicopters are extremely expensive to operate. Are you suggesting the government should have commandeered the nation's private fleet, forcing them to donate their time and resources to this rescue effort?"

That would be a great idea, but how dare Bush ask his rich friends to sacrifice to help poor black people. The RNC response is to send out an email calling for the end of the estate tax. (an actual email that went out today) Great response. Our nation is in crisis and the GOP wants to further loot the treasury with another give away to billionaires while the people starve to death for 4 days waiting to be rescued.

[Kwix]

2-4 days sounds about right from my past experience. Of course, if the relief had been staged correctly, say in N. MS, LA, TX or AL it would have only been a days drive into the disaster area. Almost every year for the last 100,000 years hurricanes have hit the gulf coast. Based on the reactions of the administration you would think they had never heard of one.

[Matt Welch]

it's beyond any previously considered worst-case scenario.

Is this true? I thought the Perfect Storm scenario was even worse ... unless that model didn't take into account the wreckage along the rest of the Gulf Coast.

[friendofliberty]

RC Dean,

Are you Karl Rove or just his evil twin.

How many times have you sucked Bush's dick today. You really are a heartless piece of shit.

[Stevo Darkly]

Buncha smarties were laughing about it yesterday, but this is a situation where teleportation would come in real handy, hah, wouldn't it?

[blammo]

Friendofliberty

I don't see what abolishing the estate tax has to do with responding to a national emergency.

There are two major causes as I see it:

1) This is a very fucked up thing to happen, with very little notice.

2) Our government is run by a bunch of schmucks.

As with most things, I don't think a lack of funding is to blame.

[Portlander]

As I mentioned on another thread, this can be viewed as a dress rehearsal for a WMD attack. I was focused more on the effects of losing a city has on the nation as a whole. But looking at the immediate response to the "attack", it's obvious the emergency response is inadequate by an order of magnitude, at least. And there isn't even an immediate medical emergency, like we would see with biological, radiological, or chemical agents. Most of the people currently in distress can be fixed up with a few gallons of Gatorade and 3 squares. Imagine what New Orleans would look like if they needed antidotes, antibiotics, blood, oxygen, etc.

Truly, we are fucked when a WMD goes off.

[Jillsy Sloper]

I've been wondering for 4 years why there were no helicopters at the Trade Center. I'm sure there were people who escaped to the roof, and it was a good hour and a half between when the fires started and when it all fell down.

[Sandy]

Also, not every helicopter is equipped to rope people away, and not every pilot is so trained. Additionally, the purposes for which the properly-equipped-and-trained helicopters were procured haven't been exhausted--there are still people in other places that need to be medevaced. Add to that the aforementioned air traffic control issue (the military spends billions to ensure they can send a few thousand planes over a smallish area--you want 10,000 over one city?) and the cost, and pretty much you have your explanation.

[Jeff P.]

What about the 6000-plus blimps we have in this country? They all could have been down there by now, can stay in the air longer, and there's less danger if they get too close to each other. Plus they can hover closer to the ground.
New invention for houses in flood areas: roof-deployable escape balloons.

[Trooper Jones]

May I recommend the 101 Airborne? They've got a buttload of helos, a buttload of men with rifles, a buttload of trucks and their engineers, or those from Corps assets, have a buttload of LFRBs and other shallow draft craft. The Army is used to operating in austere environments and could swing this type of mission.

The 101 claims it can deploy a brigade in 36 hours. Possibly too late now, though.

Of course that would be assuming that anyone in the federal government actually would take some risks (legal and operational).

[joe]

Tom Crick,

Both the size of the COE's overall budget, and its mandates, are decided by Congress. They can't just stop doing one of the things they've been ordered to do and spend the money on another. You get fired for that stuff.

Don't blame the troops for failing to march left, when they were ordered to march right.

"People are claiming a measly $2mm would have done the job." No, that was the size of the cut in one year of the budget of a multi-year project.

"They went with hardening to Cat 3, and evacuation for everything above that. I believe that has been the plan for decades." The COE wanted to go higher, but they were refused the funds, so they came up with a plan based on the capacities they had.

The levees were sinking, and the Corps wanted funding to build them up. But hey, there were taxes and cut and spider holes to smoke out and whatnot.

"I don't see what abolishing the estate tax has to do with responding to a national emergency."

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Anyway, the big question is about preventing the national emergency, not responding to it.

[rose]

Why did I just see a child searching for food in of a pile of garbage in Mississippi? What country is this?

[joe]

Jillsy, there were helicopters available at the WTC, Guiliani asked the Fire Commissioner if they could be used to get the people on the roof, and he said no, it would be too dangerous. Not sure why.

[alkurta]

Our nation is in crisis and the GOP wants to further loot the treasury with another give away to billionaires while the people starve to death for 4 days waiting to be rescued.

Friendofliberty, I thought America was suffering from an obesity crisis? Won't a little forced dieting be good for them??

On a more serious note, in today's Chicago Tribune is an illistration of how the levee broke. Water started spilling over the top of the levee. As these many tons of water hit the ground at the base of the levee, its structural integrity weakened, causing the entire levee wall in that section to give way.

[The Lonewacko Blog]

What about the 6000-plus blimps we have in this country?

They'd also be in big trouble if people from the ground started using their new weapons.

Where are the liberals to ask the looters to stop what they're doing and allow help to be sent in?

[Jennifer]

Considering how much of our energy infrastructure goes through the area, protecting it looks like a legitimate matter of national security, even if protecting a large but poor American city wouldn't otherwise be.

But behold our country's priorities involving which threats to address (And you can compare for yourselves the number of Americans killed by Saddam's WMDs versus the number killed by the breaching of the levees):

FEMA was not alone in cutting hurricane spending in New Orleans and the surrounding area.

Federal flood-control spending for southeastern Louisiana has been chopped, from $69 million in 2001 to $36.5 million in 2005, according to budget documents. Federal hurricane protection for the Lake Pontchartrain vicinity in the Army Corps of Engineers' budget dropped from $14.25 million in 2002 to $5.7 million this year. Louisiana Democratic Sen. Mary Landrieu requested $27 million this year.

Both the New Orleans Times-Picayune newspaper and a local business magazine reported that the effects of the budget cuts at the Army Corps of Engineers were severe.

In 2004, the Corps essentially stopped major work on the now-breached levee system that had protected New Orleans from flooding. It was the first such stoppage in 37 years, the Times-Picayune reported.

``It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay,'' Jefferson Parish emergency-management chief Walter Maestri told the newspaper.

The Army Corps' New Orleans office, facing a $71 million cut, also eliminated funds for a study on how to protect the Crescent City from a Category 5 storm, New Orleans City Business reported in June.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/12532185.htm

But Congress or anybody else shouldn't waste time addressing this just yet; save the survivors first. Right now, why this happened isn't as important as preventing more immediate deaths.

[Ash]

Maybe there ARE a lot o' choppers ... From a Scotsman article:

"More were being evacuated from flood-stricken hospitals and from the Pontchartrain road bridge, where parish officials said a "sea of humanity" was sitting or lying waiting for help.

Helicopters were landing so frequently that they were forming noisy traffic jams in the sky.

Navy Chinooks and others supplied by the Coastguard and National Guard landed only briefly to unload their bedraggled passengers before lifting off to continue the race against time that the evacuation of New Orleans has become."

http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=1873262005

[Tom Crick]

"Because nobody wanted to pay for it. They went with hardening to Cat 3, and evacuation for everything above that. I believe that has been the plan for decades."

The plan sucked...for decades. It sucked under Bush and it sucked under Clinton.

[SixSigma]

Portlander -

I've seen you make that comparison before as well and I think it's slighty inaccurate.

On WMD - if it were a chemical weapon, you would still have many more avenues of entrance and exit than is currently available because of this tragedy. As well as working hospitals, electricty, etc, etc.

If it were a nuclear weapon, antibiotics won't be of much help in the area most affected.

And in both of those situations, there would have to be quarantined areas and such, where only personel trained with proper equipment would be able to enter and exit.

I believe these and other factors would change the analogy a great deal.

[David McElroy]

I'm curious exactly why it's a problem that Operation Blessing is one of many organizations listed on the FEMA web site. Pat Robertson said something very stupid a couple of weeks ago, but what in the world does that have to do with whether one of the charities he heads is a good choice for relief work?

I happen to know something about the work done by Operation Blessing, and I've never had ANY reason to believe that the organization was anything but a very effective group at doing charity work and relief. The item at sploid.com uses very loaded words when it describes Operation Blessing as a "front operation" for Robertson. Does it not occur to people that an organization can be wrong on some political issues, but very sincere and effective at providing charity?

Of the 21 organizations listed as looking for donations or volunteers, something like 18 of them are religious in nature (either Christian or Jewish). Why was Operation Blessing singled out for criticism, other than Robertson's recent comment about killing Hugo Chavez? Can't we be smart enough to separate our political feelings from uninformed bias when it comes to an organization with the expertise and willingness to render aid?

[Matt Welch]

David -- I just thought it was curious that it was the number-two charity -- right below the Red Cross -- listed at FEMA. Not a big deal, but interesting.

[joe]

Lonewacko,

"Where are the liberals to ask the looters to stop what they're doing and allow help to be sent in?"

America's proud and independent gun owners don't seem to pay much attention to what we ask them.

They're you're buddies, why don't you ask them.

[David McElroy]

Matt:

When I checked the site (following the link at sploid.com), it was the third one listed. If we were looking at the same list, I'm sure it's simply changed since you saw it. When I looked, the list was divided into two categories, one of groups just seeking cash donations and another list of groups seeking cash and volunteers. The Red Cross, Operation Blessing and one more (whose name escapes me) were the only three who were not seeking volunteers. Of those three, Operation Blessing was listed third. Even if the group WAS listed second earlier, I don't understand why it's interesting or noteworthy, but we must be filtering the information through different lenses.

[Tom Crick]

"Pat Robertson said something very stupid a couple of weeks ago, but what in the world does that have to do with whether one of the charities he heads is a good choice for relief work?"

It's not just what he said two weeks ago. I tune in to Pat Robertson every once in a while--just to keep an eye on 'im--and every time I do, he says something stupid. I bet he says stupid things every day.

...Anyway, considering that the guy seems to make a virtue of mixing religion with politics, indeed, considering that he preaches a gross distortion of Christ's central message, I've made it a point not to give him or any organization he's associated with anything ever.

For all I know, he's doing great work, but he'll have to do it without my help--'cause for all I know he's using this organization to promote his warped form of Christianity. I see him like one of those Muslim charities--for all I know, that money's goin' to help people who really need it, but, just in case, I ain't givin' 'em a dime.

...If it makes you feel any better, I don't give money to the Scientologists either.

[Matt Welch]

David -- Sploid has since updated; take a look.

As for blogworthiness, look, I just found it slightly queer, and figured enough people would find it of at least mild interest. Ya win some, ya lose some. I remember (or think I remember) doing something similar after 9/11 when some of the first "grief counselors" were whack-job Scientologists.

[Rhywun]

I don't understand why it's interesting or noteworthy

I guess you don't find Mr. Robertson to be as vile and hateful as a lot of others do. The man spends half his television life condemning those he hates and does not understand (gays, in particular), and the other half trolling for dollars to convert everyone else (heathens). I think it's great that some small part of his organization is doing something good. The rest of it can rot in hell, for all I care. As long as there exist aid organizations with no religious agenda, this "faith-based" bullshit can do without me.

[The Lonewacko Blog]

Joe: distribute guns to the (current) prey in NOLA and let me know what happens.

[Bob]

>I've been wondering for 4 years why there were no helicopters at the Trade Center.

When was the order given to shut down NY airspace?

[jf]

Lonewacko:

joe made a "hit and run" post. Don't expect him to answer you, because as usual, he resorted to an ad hominem, and then fled the thread until it's safer to post.

Despite not agreeing with him, I used to respect his arguments, until I realized that all too often he resorts to name calling when he realizes the fight is lost.

[JohnWalters]

Most of the really kickass Bell Jet copters are way too busy dropping Roundup herbicide across the Colombian countryside or conducting aerial searches for outdoor marijuana eradication progams like CAMP.

It's the height of the growing season...Think of PRIORITIES, please.

[Andy Hardy]

Hey, maybe we could get all the kids together & put on our own rescue effort!

[rose]

Joe,

You're confusing the majority of "America's proud and independent gun owners" with the sordid criminals in New Orleans who wiped out Wal-Mart gun departments.

[joe]

I know, rose, I was engaging Lonewacko on his own level.

Which, come to think of it, probably isn't a good idea.

jf,

Some of use sleep at night, asshead.

[jf]

joe:

I told Lonewacko not to expect a response, and that you were at the point of the argument where you were down to namecalling.

Thanks for proving me right.

[mac]

What I don't understand is why there aren't 1000's of *boats*. It's a lot easier to evacuate by water than by air.

[Tom Crick]

"Thanks for proving me right."

I gotta speak up for joe here. I've been reading his comments for years, and I don't think he's shown any special tendency for name calling--asshead.