Three Days

I'm as wary as the next guy about Congress making hurried legislative responses to temporary disasters, but someone on CNN just made what I think is a fair point about political priorities: When doctors yanked Terri Schiavo's feeding tube on March 18, it took Congress all of three days to fly back to Washington, hold an extraordinary session, and pass a law affecting the life and death of one human being. George Bush "returned from vacation in Crawford, Texas to sign the bill into law at 1:11 a.m that morning."

It's been three days since Katrina began ruining New Orleans and killing untold thousands of her residents (many of whom presumably could not evacuate, because there was no transportation) … and Congress is only now getting around to talking about replenishing the rapidly draining FEMA budget. There are few disasters that are true National Emergencies, but the eradication of one of our most unique cities, and the preventable deaths of who knows how many thousands, strikes me as one of them.

Comments

[SR]

Yes, but the people affected here were mostly poor, black, and had brain functions. You need several thousand of them at least to equal a disabled middle class white woman.

[joe]

Man, when the freaking Reason Foundation's blog is plinking the government for not spending enough money or responding quickly enough to a story in on the news, you know you screwed up reeeeeaaaaaaal bad.

[JonBuck]

I have strong reservations about the federal government's response to this disaster, but I am not yet ready to point fingers and assign blame.

But I'm damned close.

I worry that those in power are too corrupt to be decisive.

The political fallout from this will be immense, no matter what happens.

[independent worm]

Yes, but the people affected here were mostly poor, black, and had brain functions.

And therefore did not vote GOP.

[SR]

"And therefore did not vote GOP."

Yow! That was the rimshot heard 'round the world!

[Dynamist]

Disasters are handled by an established bureaucracy. GWB declared relief before the storm hit. To equal that performance, Congress would have had to pass Schiavo legislation before Terri went comatose.

[Rimfax]

Why all the talk about draining New Orleans? Don't they realize that it can now become something far cooler: an American Venice!

Imagine Mardi Gras with gondolas, and wet t-shirt contests that only require the contestents jump into the "street" for the proper look.

[Jeff P.]

Next time a Cat 5 threatens a coastal city, expect to see fleets of evac vehicles BEFORE it hits.

[smacky]

Great title! One of Jane's Addictions best songs, ever.

[Jeff P.]

Also, do you think the Dems can possibly remind the public of the administration's paltry handling of this situation when the elections roll around?
Or will they manage to fuck that up as well?

[Grammar Rodeo Champion]

one of our most unique cities

Aaaaaaarghhhhh

[R C Dean]

the preventable deaths of who knows how many thousands

I'm not sure that I see the connection between sending more money to FEMA this week or next and the "preventable" deaths of thousands.

First, you have to believe that FEMA is actually making a material contribution here, that without it thousands would die. Frankly, I'm not so sure. I think the organization that is going to make the life-or-death difference over the next week is the military, followed pretty closely by the private charities.

Second, you have to believe that FEMA's behavior will change if the appropriate is passed, say, tomorrow rather than a week from now. I find that pretty hard to believe also, although I wouldn't be shocked to hear that some pencil-necked bureaucrat started interfering with the rescue effort because it looked like it might exceed the current fiscal quarter blah blah.

Still, point taken about the apparent Congressional priorities.

[Joe Bonforte]

Matt, I know you're down on Republicans. But when you use this lame an excuse to bash them over not spending money faster, I can't put you in the libertarian camp anymore. You've slipped into leftist-land.

It's a sad day for a once-proud magazine.

[Dave W.]

Disasters are handled by an established bureaucracy.

So are end of life laws and procedures (ie, the state gov't, Florida). But that wasn't good enough for Congress and the Administration with Terri Schiavo. They wanted to intermeddle there (where it was inappropriate), rather than on the flood (where it would have been).

[Jesse Walker]

Smacky: Funny, I thought it was a Willie Nelson reference.

Rodeo Champion: Could we put an end to this grammatical urban legend that it's impossible for one item to be "more unique" than another? If it has a greater number of unique qualities, it's more unique. New Orleans had a greater number of unique qualities than most other American cities; therefore, it was and hopefully one day will again be one of our most unique cities.

[Matt Welch]

Joe Bonforte -- Does Congress have no Democrats now? And are there no Democrats involved in the governments of New Orleans and Louisiana?

I don't know who to blame here, and I don't know how many times I have to preface every comment with "I have no idea what I'm talking about"; what I *am* sure of is that there was a massive governmental cock-up here, and that also Congress is expressing less urgency about the matter than they did about Terry Schiavo. If either of those two points are wrong, I'd love to hear why.

[thoreau]

First, I do get Matt's point: While he's not a big fan of spending and bureaucracy, yadda yadda yadda, it is interesting how in one case they were very eager to "Do Something!" while in another they seem less eager to go and demonstrate their concern with a symbolic and/or expensive gesture. Says something about priorities.

Anyway, the fact that I get his point won't stop me from from mocking him anyway:

A city has been destroyed by storms.

A libertarian just called for more government spending.

There's upheaval in the Middle East.

Surely these must be signs of the Apocalypse!

[dpotts]

Joe B.-

You know, there are situations that do warrant government expenditure of our money, and I think that the point Matt is trying to make is a valid one. How far is the GOP's head up it's ass? I'm sorry, but the die hard libertarian attitude of "help no-one...ever" is exactly the reason nobody votes for those fools at the LP.

[tomWright]

For a bunch of people that do not believe in evolution, the Republicans sure are engaging in an immense implementation of Social Darwinism.

As far as to where all the evac-copters are, I guess they are too busy hunting for 'black helicopters' to actually use the stinking things.

Tom

[Jeff P.]

Although FEMA is an utterly useless apendage,
dealing with disasters, especially when they involve moving thousands of people both living and dead, falls squarely on the Government. I am ruthlessly libertarian and I would have no problem with the US throwing everything it has at this.
No, the Gov't fucked this one good. Every longboat, amphibious hovercraft, and any other funky DARPA hardware the military has should have been dispatched within hours of the flood to begin evac. We don't live in a world with an International Rescue. An operation this big needs rapid deployment and a fair degree of centralized coordination.
Even Ayn Rand's Ethics of Emergencies spoke of disaster rescue and relief being a proper function of gov't.
Within two weeks you're going to see folks in hazmat suits down there. I fully expect some form of martial law to hold sway (especially in NOLA, where everyone has officially been told to leave) before long. US citizens will be killed by the military or police. Count on it.

[Dynamist]

Dave: The relief is organized and funded already. Congress must meet to authorize continuing to fund the relief. They didn't have do anything right away because the work had been delegated. They had to meet about Schiavo because she was there was nobody already delegated to keeping her alive.

Jeff: How do you know there were no evac fleets in place? If you listen to the people who didn't flee, the overwhelming consensus says they didn't want to go, they didn't think it would be that bad, and believed that some government angel would sweep them to safety if it was truly bad. The national coverage distorts the picture. Would you prefer forced evacuation (more coercive than mandatory)?

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Claiming that the idiotic government response to this disaster is spawned by racism is clear lunacy. Government is by definition unable to do things right. A perfect example of that is the biggest wildfire in the history of California, which happened because a bureacrat forced a water dropping helicopter to return to base because the regs said he wasn't allowed to fly after dusk. The fire could have easily been extinguished in 10 minutes. Instead it burned all night and the rest, including scores of deaths and billions of dollars in damages, is history.

[Kami Toishi]

You know, there are situations that do warrant government expenditure of our money, and I think that the point Matt is trying to make is a valid one.

And, from my perspective, constitutionally required given the civil unrest...

Article IV. Section. 4.

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Joe, there is a difference between chiding the government for being incompetent and approving of government actions.

For example, I chide the Frogs and the UN for being extremely absent from any sort of relief effort. But, that's just because they're all mouth and no action when the US is on the short end of the stick. I most certainly do not believe that the taxpayers of the grand French Republic should be tapped to pay for the Gulf Coast tragedy.

And New Orleans is flooded because the government took no action to stick anyone's finger in the dike until it was way too late. They fiddled for at least 24 hours. Me and my brother in law and a good crew coulda fixed the got dam thing early on. Just do it guys.

[Dynamist]

Matt: So there's no basis in fact to your certainty of a cock-up? Government seems to be doing the best job government can. Perhaps Welch Disaster Recovery, Inc., would do the work with marginally better efficiency, but such a company does not exist. We have to rely on the less efficient state. Do you think that all the people involved are actually trying to bungle this? I bet they're doing whatever seems best based on what they know in the moment.

[Dynamist]

TWC: Amen on gov't doing things the gov't way. However, the Corps is one of those "get it done" branches. I gotta figure they know more about the south Louisiana levee system than you and your brother. If you want to help, grab a chainsaw and head for the Gulf.

[Eric II]

New Orleans had a greater number of unique qualities than most other American cities; therefore, it was and hopefully one day will again be one of our most unique cities

I'd say that it's pretty damn unique right now...

[Jeff P.]

Dynamist: I agree that the media is fumbling this one badly, and that we do not have a clear picture of gov't action so far, but a gov't press release went out this afternoon about a federal supply ship rushing to the scene...from SAN FRANSISCO!
We've been monitoring raw footage from eight different camera crews here at work and the number of actual watercraft we've seen is pathetic. Hell, Katanga's henchmen in Live and Let Die were better organized than this.
From the moment it was apparent that the majority of a major US city as under water there should have been a big red alert.
And say what you want about the media, but they appear to have more choppers, boats, and personel down there than any official rescue operation.

[Timothy]

They had to meet about Schiavo because she was there was nobody already delegated to keeping her alive.

They didn't have to do anything about Schiavo, they chose to act like completely morons about it.

As for the French, well, it looks like they're thinking about helping.

[Isaac Bartram]

For example, I chide the Frogs and the UN for being extremely absent from any sort of relief effort.

Actually, TWC, I heard that help is coming from France, Russia, Australia and Canada. It will take some time to get here of course reaffirming the obvious fact that when it comes right down to it the immediate response to a disaster must be local.

[Jesse Walker]

I'd say that it's pretty damn unique right now...

You got me there.

[Matt Welch]

Dynamist -- My evidence for a government "cock-up" is exactly as strong as your evidence that they're "doing the best job government can." Which is to say, both are guesses.

My guess is based on the belief that A) this *wasn't* worse than the Worst Case Scenario; B) despite that, the city wasn't successfully evacuated; and C) there are currently people dying of thirst in places accessible to at least plane-drops. And also D) New Orleans isn't exactly known for its efficient local government services.

And your guess is based on what, exactly?

[Evan Williams]

"Man, when the freaking Reason Foundation's blog is plinking the government for not spending enough money or responding quickly enough to a story in on the news, you know you screwed up reeeeeaaaaaaal bad."

Joe, Joe, Joe...

Given all the caveats and qualifiers in that post, I'd say it's fairly evident that the main gist is how it compares to Terry Shiavo.

However, I'd like to add: the federal gubmint is partially responsible for this mess in the first place. It's their coastal flood insurance subsidization that distorts the market and eliminates important economic disincentives to live in a big sinkhole, by the ocean, in hurricane alley.

Of course, the problem is that it's not the fed gov't that gets punished---they just steal more of our money to pay for their transgressions. Not exactly justice being done.

[Dynamist]

Matt: Extensive knowledge of New Orleans and non-stop local coverage through media, email, and blogs since Sunday night. Since I don't want to try arguing from authority, you can keep your conceptions, but please be clear that it is emotion-based.

A) NOLA has pretty much all the worst-case effects, but not by the most expected pattern of events.
B) The pre-storm evac sure seems successful. As many got out as were expected to.
C) There are also people being dropped supplies. Who do save first, and which one do you focus on?
D) Agreed. Nice that the Corps is in charge of the levees, and the feds are taking charge of the rescues.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Three days is how much longer it took Amazon to get off it's dead butt and offer some help than when the tsunami hit. Very disappointing.

[Dynamist]

Jeff: So, would you have prepositioned all the US Navy in the Gulf? If the ship in question was dispatched Friday, and a quake hit the Bay area Monday, which action would you think was the bigger error?

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Dynamist, someone in authority should have immediately done something to plug the dikes. They didn't make the effort until it was way too late. Whether that blame lies with the Corps, the city, the county, or whomever, it still boils down to the government blowing one of the few things that most people see as a legitimate government function.

Then again, in some respects New Orleans is like Malibu (without the money). Just asking for weather troubles and, boy howdy, they just found some.

[Matt Welch]

Dynamist -- Actually, arguing from authority is far more persuasive; I'd do it if I had any.

I guess I have a hard time accepting the contention that "The pre-storm evac sure seems successful." An evacuation that didn't include 50,000 (or whatever the number is) of the citizens, many of whom simply didn't have transportation or money ... that just doesn't seem "successful" to me, even if "as many got out as were expected to." Sounds like the soft bigotry of low expectations!

And though indeed "There are also people being dropped supplies," and some of those being dropped supplies are being shot at (a non-trivial detail), there are people at the *Superdome* and *Convention center* just dying of thirst, right in front of everybody. Maybe I'm being emotional, but that looks like a terrible, terrible failure.

[Beavis]

He said "plug the dikes."

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Issac, the French have offered kind words but nothing of substance.

This was the headline on the only news story today pertaining to hurricane relief and France:

France MAY Mobilize Relief From The Caribbean (emphasis mine)

As for the Rooskies and the rest. I'll take your word for it.

[joshua corning]

I sort of get the same feeling about new ORleans that i get when i see homes destroyed in forest fires or earthquakes or airplanes crashing into buildings....Its your own damn fault for living there...ok i am a monster, but admit it you have a little bit of that feeling also.

Anyway that crappy movie with John Travolta as a drunk southern profesor has sealed New Orleans fate in my mind...New Orleans is dead, long live Lake New Orleans

[Dynamist]

Matt: Most of the people still there didn't want to leave. The national coverage shows the destitute and the stubborn equally, I think. Some were certainly trapped by their poverty, but the bulk of the poor didn't want to go anyway. Many "rich" were stubborn, too. They're sitting on their galleries with shotguns to keep looters away.

I don't see the Superdome situation as a failure. I see it as testimony to the magnitude of the damage, and the utter dependence of people on technology. Failure implies blame, and the cause of all this is nature, not man. Men do what they can, and sometimes it is simply not enough.

[Jeff P.]

Dynamist: is your debate strategy simply to take the adverse position, and then set it as far back into irrationality as possible?
OF COURSE I don't think that the Navy should have been kept in force off the gulf coast, there was that whole hurricane-thing in the way. But I'll put money down that two or three carriers could have been on-site by now, with a few more there by the time the relief ship arrives.
I completely agree that the pre-storm evac went as well as could be expected, and that the actual aftermath is worse than any of us could have imagined, but it's Thursday already and all the footage I'm watching come in shows a handful if choppers and a lot of cops. A LOT more people could have been pulled out a lot faster if a large quantity of small watercraft were in use.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Josh, I got the impression from reading between the lines that a former blond editor of this mag feels somewhat the same. Now she didn't actually say so, but....

BEAVIS, LOL

Now where was I before I was so rudely interrupted by work....

[Aldini]

Matt, I think it's right to be emotional. My hindsight's not clear enough to hold the gov't responsible for any pre-storm failures, but here in the aftermath, they're just not getting it done.

Right now, the situation outside the convention centre looks like it would be BETTER with a large contingent of heavily armed disaster profiteers.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Matt, why exactly is it George Bush's personal responsibility to have buses in New Orleans? How many of the 50,000 you mention were staying in NO by choice, given that the last umpteen predictions of disaster hadn't turned out? And how many extra divisions of disaster-trained NG are you willing to pay for in the 99 years between hundred year storms? And where will they come from? A draft?

(And don't tell me about Iraq: the infantry in Iraq are primarily good at killing people and blowing shit up, and the only way they could have stopped looting in NO would have been by doing that. And besides, only about 10 percent of LA's NG is in Iraq.)

Goddamnit, can't you people figure this out? Sometimes the goddamned magic doesn't work, and Mommy can't take care of everything, and bad shit just happens!

Now stop whining that Mommy didn't love us enough and get off your goddamned asses and do something to help.

[Jennifer]

Considering how much of our energy infrastructure goes through the area, protecting it looks like a legitimate matter of national security, even if protecting a large but poor American city wouldn't otherwise be.

But behold our country's priorities involving which threats to address (And you can compare for yourselves the number of Americans killed by Saddam's WMDs versus the number killed by the breaching of the levees):

FEMA was not alone in cutting hurricane spending in New Orleans and the surrounding area.

Federal flood-control spending for southeastern Louisiana has been chopped, from $69 million in 2001 to $36.5 million in 2005, according to budget documents. Federal hurricane protection for the Lake Pontchartrain vicinity in the Army Corps of Engineers' budget dropped from $14.25 million in 2002 to $5.7 million this year. Louisiana Democratic Sen. Mary Landrieu requested $27 million this year.

Both the New Orleans Times-Picayune newspaper and a local business magazine reported that the effects of the budget cuts at the Army Corps of Engineers were severe.

In 2004, the Corps essentially stopped major work on the now-breached levee system that had protected New Orleans from flooding. It was the first such stoppage in 37 years, the Times-Picayune reported.

``It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay,'' Jefferson Parish emergency-management chief Walter Maestri told the newspaper.

The Army Corps' New Orleans office, facing a $71 million cut, also eliminated funds for a study on how to protect the Crescent City from a Category 5 storm, New Orleans City Business reported in June.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/12532185.htm

But Congress or anybody else shouldn't waste time addressing this just yet; save the survivors first. Right now, why this happened isn't as important as preventing more immediate deaths.

[Mark]

Where were the contingency plans, for best- and worst-case scenarios? Why weren't fueled-and-ready-to-go helicopters filled with sand, gravel, or sand and gravel suspended in aerogel immediately dispatched to the break in the levee? The water has stopped flowing into the city because it has equalized with Lake Pontchartrain.

Why is it Thursday, three days after the storm's passing, and order is not close to being restored? According to this guy, the National Guard may not even be good enough.

The mayor, governor, whoever's in charge of FEMA, and everyone else that failed to properly plan for this "inevitable" disaster need to be sacked.

[Matt Welch]

the bulk of the poor didn't want to go anyway.

I don't see how you can say that with confidence.

Failure implies blame, and the cause of all this is nature, not man.

The cause of an event -- especially a predictable event -- has nothing to do with whether the response to it is effective or ineffective.

I don't see the Superdome situation as a failure.

I set the bar higher than that.

[Dynamist]

For the people who wonder what the problem is with resupply, this is from AP at 4:46pm Thursday:

In hopes of defusing the unrest at the convention center, Mayor Ray Nagin gave the refugees permission to march across a bridge to the city's unflooded west bank for whatever relief they can find. But the bedlam at the convention center appeared to make leaving difficult.

A military helicopter tried to land at the convention center several times to drop off food and water. But the rushing crowd forced the choppers to back off. Troopers then tossed the supplies to the crowd from 10 feet off the ground and flew away.

We can only help those who are willing to cooperate with the help available. I acknowledge the desperation, yet it is incomplete to blame only the gov't.

[Matt Welch]

Charlie -- Matt, why exactly is it George Bush's personal responsibility to have buses in New Orleans?

I never said it was.

Sometimes the goddamned magic doesn't work, and Mommy can't take care of everything, and bad shit just happens!

True! Also, sometimes people die of thirst on live television at aircraft-accessible locations.

[joshua corning]

"True! Also, sometimes people die of thirst on live television at aircraft-accessible locations."

Yeah if this is true i have to admit if the media gets a hold of a story like this of an individual dying and then thier family sues or some such thing...it could kill the republicans.

Anyway i still blame some asshole who desided to make a settlement in a swamp under a lake in hurricane ally for the whole thing...oh yeah and all the dumb asses who chose to live there despite knowing this and dispite that new Orleans had since sunk below sea level....and yes they knew the danger...hell i knew the danger and i live in the pacific northwest. That defuct show "Insomniac" had an episode in New Orleans that explained it...and everytime a hurricane is about to hit that area the cable show have countless examples of how this could happen, Nova did a special on it...what the hell are people living there for?

[Dynamist]

Matt: Set the bar wherever you want, as long as you're going to do the work to get over it.

I'm confident of my assertion that most didn't want to leave from a countless stream of first- and second-hand reports. They really believed all they had to do was go to the Dome, even though Mayor Nagin told them it wouldn't be good enough. Maybe they were all convinced they counted as "last resort". I think they set their own bars too low.

[Briana Beatty]

Charlie - Thank you for your comments!!! Finally, some truth on this site. Isn't it tiresome to read all the whining about Bush by all these teary-eyed "Liberal-tarians" crying into their hash pipes? You nailed it exactly. GROW UP! Just grow up, already!

[Did he really just say that?]

many of whom presumably could not evacuate, because there was no transportation

Glad you said "many" because "most" are just idiots who had a weeklong heads-up to GTF outta town (and a lifetime to buy flood insurance).

[zeroentitlement]

NOLA's a major tourist destination (or, um, it was a few days ago). With that kind of money rolling into town, one wonders how they don't have the tax base to maintain their own levees. One also might wonder why entertainment and tourism interests down there would not see advantages to both lobbying for and contributing to levee improvements and emergency measures (i.e., a series of large water pumps such as those built into hydroelectric dams like Hoover and Grand Coulee).

I agree with Matt; it was a piss-poor evacuation. Because most of these people were either too dumb or ignorant to comprehend what the hurricane might do to them, they needed National Guardsmen standing at the ends of their driveways, telling them they have ten minutes to collect their sh*t and get on the bus/truck, or get forcibly carried out.

Not that I particularly care about their welfare, but rescuing someone's dumb ass after the storm from 15 feet of liquid sewage is a lot more expensive and dangerous than getting their dumb ass out of harm's way pre-disaster.

[Frank]

Jennifer,

This has been a major problem that New Orleans and the state of Louisiana has known for YEARS! I've lived in Louisiana my whole life, I know what sort of cockamamie things have been happening here, and the money could have been gotten from either of those two sources before beggering the Feds. This should've been THE ISSUE for New Orleans and state politics. Even as of last year, I did not hear any politician using the levee system as part of their platform.
Why wasn't it an issue, my theory, most New Orleanians didn't care and so the politicians could get away with this shirking of responsibility. For anecdotal evidence, I know a good number of people who lived in New Orleans, and the average NO citizen could be pretty fatalistic, it goes with the territory of living in one of the most decadent, corrupt, and violent cities in the US. In fact my sister's ex-fiancee and his family stayed in NO for the last hurricane, why, because "We've been through hurricanes before, they're nothing, we'll get through this."

Bush will probably get a lot of flack for this (can't really praise him when multi-million dollar bridges in Alaska need to get built!), but under the circumstances that a major American city was a natural hazard, then Clinton, Bush I, Reagen, and maybe even Carter should get walloped for this because this whole problem has been talked about since 1977: http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/pao/Riverside/Sept-Oct_04_Riv.pdf

This should've been THE ISSUE of New Orleans, and never did I hear a single word of protest from the NewOrleanians themselves about the lack of proper protection. I feel terrible for them, but this was their city and they partied away the years until the storm hit...

[joe]

As obviously a troll as Briana is, she still doesn't manage to surpass Dynamist, and he's being serious.

[Dynamist]

Frank: Who cares about the levees when Benson wants to move the Saints...? 😉

[Jadagul]

Zeroentitlement: just to echo Frank, your problem is that you're assuming that New Orleans's administrators are something verging on competent. I'm honestly shocked that they managed to coordinate it as 'well' as they did; day-to-day politics in New Orleans make the whole Iraq war look like it was well-planned with perfect information (and make the highway bill look pork-free, African customs officials completely honest, and the LA riots after Rodney King totally devoid of any racial component. Our politics are were seriously messed up).

I was just surprised that the Corps of Engineers has been doing as poorly; maybe it's the air, or contagious, or something. At any rate, for anyone wondering why they didn't dam the levy-they tried. They were dropping 3000-pound sandbags, but they just got washed away. However, some of the copters that were doing that seem to have been diverted so they couldn't help, and they were told ahead of time that the sandbag plan wouldn't work and offered another plan that might have (who knows?). At any rate, you should never expect sensible politics out of New Orleans.

[joe]

fyodor,

If you're reading this thread,

I don't ever want to read another wounded "how dare you!" post when I note that libertarians are less than compassionate.

[Frank]

Dynamist,
Good God! Are you from the WestBank or something?
That was dead-on NewOrleanians. Give this man a muffaletta!

Also, from what I gather round the state, it's been a total pissing match for turf and jurisdiction. These're rumors, but that would make sense why the efforts at the city, parish, and state level seemed to just bog down after the flooding...

[Dynamist]

If you want trolling, who were the planning geniuses behind the now-inundated parts of the city, and particularly the lower 9th? Why should anyone trust people with your title, eh joe?

I'm telling you straight info. If it comes across as trolling, maybe you got to get your mind right. If you prefer the national spin, you're only getting part of the story.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

hash pipe?

I resemble that remark....

[Frank]

Jadagul,

Yeah, yeah, that's the ticket...There were also some plans for the Corp to clog the levee using a boat, but the water stopped coming in.
Are you from New Orleans too? We should go to Pat O's, and when they clean to 2 tons of benzene, corpses, and feces from it, then it's Hurricanes for everyone!

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Dyno, I tend to agree with you in that it appears that those with the ability (ie, cash, cars, resources, places to go, good sense, what-have-you) to get outta town did so.

I also see the merit in the other argument that many people didn't take the warnings so seriously. Seems loads of people are constantly crying wolf only this time the wolf actually came.

[Dynamist]

Thanks, Frank. Maybe pissing match is what the talking heads mean when they say "communication problems".

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Matt, you made a good start there. Now, answer at least one of my questions. My favorite would be "how many extra divisions of National Guard should be enlisted, trained, and maintained in order to manage a hundred year storm in a unique location, and how do you plan to pay for them in the 99 years that the storm doesn't happen?"

There's at least one good way to handle this: have National Service, make every citizen have six months training in rescue, survival, emergency medical care and basic military training starting on the 1 or the month following their 18th birthday, and require them, under penalty of law, to maintain two weeks of food, water, and supplies along with an automatic weapon and 1000 rounds of ammunition. Oh, and don't forget a week's training and re-familiarization every year.

That would solve a lot of these problems.

Doesn't seem very "libertarian", but what the hell --- you've already decided that the Government Should Do Something.

[Frank]

New Orleans didn't take the warnings seriously, what with it's Hurricane parties happening hurrican after hurricane? No, surely you jest my good sir!
I understand with all the hurricane porn that people may think of crying wolf evey time a hurricane passes by, but even in the 8th grade in Baton Rouge I was taught that it was a matter of time before that big bowl in the ground known as New Orleans would become a disaster. As I said, NewOrleanians have known this for years, they never made enough stink about it, now their town is underwater.
IMAO, Mayor Nagin and/or Govenor Blanco should've commandeered some buses, cars, etc and got eveyone they could out of New Orleans. Of course, this opion of mine is a wish, and only that, since I'm very doubtful that could happen because the legal and logistical nightmare of accomplishing this for the estimated 100,000 stranded in NO was so daunting. What's even worse is that if they had done this (and the Louisiana road system was able to do this safely, which I'm very unsure of) and the hurricane passed NO without a scratch, then both of them would be in deep shit for all that waste.
This whole situation , no matter who it would have been handled, had FUBAR written all over it. The proper precautions should have been done YEARS ago, both Republicans and Democrats are to blame, and especially to blame is the complacency of New Orleans.

[Matt Welch]

Charlie -- I'll say it again: I have no freakin' idea how best to respond to, or prepare for, a huge natural catastrophe. I'm just looking at the response to this, and opining that it's inadequate. (Actually, what I was doing with this post, was comparing the political -- and not necessarily the practical -- urgencies of Congress over two different situations ... but whatever.)

What you describe sounds intriguingly Swiss, but I don't think it's feasible or desirable.

[Jadagul]

Yup, I'm from New Orleans, but fortunately I had a plane flight out to college last Saturday anyway, so all I had to deal with was insane traffic that made a fifteen-minute-ride to the airport into an hour and a half, and a line too long to check my luggage.

As for Pat O's, that sounds good as long as you're willing to wait a couple years for me to come of age 😉

[cynic]

damn, one big flood and even reason throws libertarianism out the window.

[Phil]

I don't ever want to read another wounded "how dare you!" post when I note that libertarians are less than compassionate.

This libertarian donated to two major charities today, and enough so that his company matched both donations. My wife has spent the last 72 hours with little sleep, furiously helping to manage online communications for the American Red Cross. What did you do today, joe, besides this?

In fact, where the fuck do you get off lumping everyone in with Dynamist, let alone Briana, when it's quite clear across the various threads that different people are of various minds about apportioning blame and what to do in the aftermath? Seriously, who in the holy hell do you think you are to make those kinds of judgements?

[Phil]

You get one or two Social Darwinist jizzbags trolling the thread, and decide to lump all libertarians in with them, despite the fact that the thread at the top of the post is Matt Welch WONDERING WHY THE HELL CONGRESS IS NOT IN EMERGENCY SESSION.

What a piece of contemptible shit you are, joe. It's like you aren't even capable of discerning individuals apart from their group memberships. Especially if you can find some cudgel to beat them all with just to assert your own smug superiority.

[Will Allen]

The base-line failure here is the fact that the city was not more thoroughly evacuated. Even if the levees had been fortified to withstand a category five, a direct hit by a category five would have killed thousands via wind alone. New orleans is simply a very dangeorus place to be during a hurricane, no matter what fortifications are made to the levee system.

Why wasn't the ciy more throughly evacuated? Probably the most prominent reason is simply because people didn't want to leave. Sure, there were some that could not, even though they wished to, and for that some level of government can be blamed. Having lived in hurricane country, and having gone through evacuations four times, however, I know how many people simply refuse to leave; they regularly mocked me when I returned.

I could never fathom the mind-set of these people, who would hang out at the coast as a hurricane loomed. Since it isn't feasible to forcibly remove thousands as a hurricane bears down, until somebody figures out a way to get it through people's thick skulls to get the f*** out of Dodge when a mandatory evacuation is called, and as long as people are encouraged to live in dangerous places, very, very, bad things are going to happen from time to time.

[Steve]

joe,

Go piss up a tree. Libertarians aren't any more or less compassionate than liberals or conservatives or communists or flat-earthers. Personal values like compassion are, in my experience, totally unrelated to political affiliation.

[Realist]

I have to give credit to Dennis Hastert, the first honest politician on this one. He said New Orleans shouldn't be rebuilt and he's right. There's simply no way to guarantee that a similar disaster won't strike again.

There certainly was a huge government failure here. The levees should have been better, the response has been correctly described by Matt Welch.

I'm willing to let people move back into New Orleans as long as they sign a waiver that they expect no government help. If they can find private insurance, great!

[TJIT]

As bad as it is it would have been a hell of a lot worse if the storm had moved a little further to the west. If new orleans had been in the eye of east of the eye the city would have been erased from the map.

I'm not sure that you could ever protect new orleans from a cat 5 hurricane. Mother nature always bats last. People forget that fact and they don't realize how much destructive power water has.

[Flyover Country]

I'd like to thank Howard Dean, Robert Kennedy, all the Louisiana politicians for reminding me why I stopped supporting the Democratic party years ago.

Rather than assign any responsibility to the inidividuals who stayed in New Orleans, the democratic politicians who have governed NO and LA for years, it must be George Bush's fault.

[gerry]

um, excuse me, but the gov't shouldn't be in the business of disaster relief, or for that matter, recovery.

[Dynamist]

Realist: I'm waiting for one of Reason's editors to post about Hastert. They love to make fun of his limited mental capacity, but I'm expecting they'll think he's a genius on this one.

Frank & Will: It's the City that Care Forgot, as they say. I wonder if the Floridians and Californians felt the same in their disasters, that the outsiders just don't get it.

[Steve, apostate libertarian]

ok, gerry, who should be in the business of disaster relief and recovery?

[Dynamist]

Steve: In one of these threads I suggested Welch Disaster Recovery, but, truth be told, I would rather rely on Thoreau Relief and Restoration.

A nudge closer to reality, it would be handled by a subsidiary of Halliburton or some equivalently huge civil engineering firm. Massive projects is what they do.

[C. Jennings]

"Why wasn't the city more throughly evacuated? Probably the most prominent reason is simply because people didn't want to leave." - Will Allen

According to the 2000 Census, there were 241,075 people living below the poverty line in New Orleans. People with subsitance level incomes and no savings who decide against buying a one-way bus ticket with their last $50 and "figuring out the rest later" don't have much of a choice. An example of choice would be my Uncle, who evacuated with his family on Thursday after choosing from among one of the many offers of empty second homes owned by friends and family. If my Uncle had remained in Metairie, then THAT would count as choosing to stay.

CJ

[DogBreath]

Steve asks: "ok, gerry, who should be in the business of disaster relief and recovery?".

In a libertarian world the answer would be: Anybody that wants to.

In this world there is no chance of success where Uncle Sugar's FEMA, etc. would put you out of business the minute a disaster occurs. In this world, people are not expected to be responsible for their risky choices, there's always Uncle Sugar.

[Dynamist]

people with subsitance level incomes and no savings who decide against buying a one-way bus ticket with their last $50 and "figuring out the rest later" don't have much of a choice.

I do not accept your premise. That is a choice. Spend what they had, or end up as they are. If you're listening to the local news, an overwhelming number of folks just expected the government to come save them.

To snark it up a notch, I'll note that they would've got another check yesterday, on the 1st. And it only cost $15 to get to Baton Rouge.

[jw]

Speaking of compassion, I think it would be quite interesting to know what the Reverends Jackson and Sharpton are doing to help in the disaster and how much of their personal fortunes they've donated. I mean, most of the storm victims seem to be African-American, and those two have built their careers around supposedly helping blacks.
And while I'm wondering, I wonder how much the Kennedys-- those great, Liberal, paragons of generosity-- have given. Or, for that matter, any of the other loudmouthed, left-wing, bleeding hearts with money? How about the members of the US Senate, everyone of which is a millionaire?

(Oh! Now I recall; the Reverend Jackson is busy consoling a leftist dicta....er, servant of the People down in Venezuela.)

[Evade]

Since we're paying for FEMA one way or another, shouldn't we demand at least a minimum level of competence?

The situation in the city was known to be serious by sometime mid-day on Monday and I still don't recall hearing or seeing even basic support today. That would seem include a group of people with a clue who had their feet in the water and some form of basic airlift operations (dropping food, water and medical supplies and arranging medevac services). We somehow managed this process with a lot less technology sixty years ago.

Looping back to the earlier question about helicopters, could some of the techniques used by the water chopper packs used to fight fires be used to manage the basics of a human air lift? I was thinking yesterday that something like the Vietnam airlift might be applicable but I'm not sure if the scale is equivalent.

[Dynamist]

Evade: Sixty years ago we didn't watch every moment of the days/weeks it takes to accomplish massive flood relief in the midst of a hurricane damage area. The measure of competence seems to be how many are helped rather than how many aren't. In a limited airspace, I would use it all to get people off roofs before I got to dropping food to people out of immediate danger.

If you haven't been hearing or seeing basic support, I suspect you're not looking too hard.

[DB]

Congress is expressing less urgency about the matter than they did about Terry Schiavo.

There doesn't seem to be as much urgency. FEMA already existed and was already dealing with the disaster, albeit infectually. The only "urgency" lay in making sure FEMA got more money before its existing funds ran out. Congress seems to have managed that. FEMA's ineffective response is unrelated to its Congressional funding; the organization has been ineffective for its entire history, it just hasn't been as important before.

The absurdity of the Schiavo situation was that Congress got involved at all. But if they were going to get involved, they had to do it quickly (i.e., before she starved to death).

[cdunlea]

Goddamnit, can't you people figure this out? Sometimes the goddamned magic doesn't work, and Mommy can't take care of everything, and bad shit just happens!

"People don't plan to fail, they fail to plan."

And Mommy sure didn't plan to prevent this.

[Will Allen]

c.jennings, my wife works with all manner of people who are statistically below the poverty line. They nearly all have cars. Now, I did read somewhere that a recent census showed 112,000 households without cars in N.O., so I certainly believe that there were some who wanted to leave but could not. I would venture, however, that if all New Orleanians were promised $100 cash, if they showed up at designated relief points in upstate Louisiana, within 24 hours of a mandatory evacuation being called, a sizable chunk of that carless group, and those who offered to serve them for a slice, would demonstrate considerable ingenuity in reaching those relief points. Sort of a quasi-free market approach to evacuation, and one which would likely be cost-effective in the overall scheme of things.

[C. Jennings]

"I would venture, however, that if all New Orleanians were promised $100 cash, if they showed up at designated relief points in upstate Louisiana, within 24 hours of a mandatory evacuation being called, a sizable chunk of that carless group, and those who offered to serve them for a slice, would demonstrate considerable ingenuity in reaching those relief points. Sort of a quasi-free market approach to evacuation, and one which would likely be cost-effective in the overall scheme of things."

Will, that's the best damned idea I've heard in five days, but it's not fair for you to use a hypothetical and behavioral psychology to kill my perfectly good argument. It's just not fair. It's true... but it's still not fair. 🙁

[Jennifer]

Even if you take the brutal social Darwinist position that cities should take care of their own disaster plans and fuck 'em if they don't, isn't the existence of the energy infrastructure down there reason enough for the Feds to get involved in protection? It's not just the Gulf coast that's being affected by the destruction; gas shortages are popping up all over the East Coast.

I keep thinking of where I grew up, in Virginia near the Norfolk Naval Base (largest Navy base in the world). If ships want to get from the base into the Atlantic they have to pass through a body of water known as Hampton Roads, which is NOT part of the Navy base but is, I believe, divided between the city limits of Norfolk, Virginia Beach and Chesapeake.

If a catastrophic storm made Hampton Roads impassable, our largest navy base, and a good chunk of our fleet, would be useless. So for those of you who say New Orleans (and the energy infrastructure there) should take care of its own disaster problems, would you also say that the cities of southeastern Virginia should be fully responsible for keeping the waterways leading to the navy base clear? Or would you consider that of sufficient national importance to warrant Federal money where necessary?

[joe]

Dyanmist,

"who were the planning geniuses behind the now-inundated parts of the city, and particularly the lower 9th?"

There were none. That was the free market at work. Planning geniuses like myself have actually managed to get laws passed that restrict construction in wetlands and flood zones - over the objections of "property rights" advocates, who insisted on their "right" to sell people "property" that will one day be underwater.

[joe]

"oh yeah and all the dumb asses who chose to live there despite knowing this and dispite that new Orleans had since sunk below sea level"

"Glad you said "many" because "most" are just idiots who had a weeklong heads-up to GTF outta town (and a lifetime to buy flood insurance)."

"Not that I particularly care about their welfare"

"damn, one big flood and even reason throws libertarianism out the window"

"um, excuse me, but the gov't shouldn't be in the business of disaster relief, or for that matter, recovery."

No, I didn't make these quotes up. Surely, it's purely a coincidence that you find them here, and nothing even vaguely similar on any liberal blogs.

[Did he really just say that?]

joe: *gasp* liberal blogs aren't holding people responsible for their bad decisions?

i'm *shocked*.

[Crushinator]

Matt Welch has offered a pivotal issue for discussion on a libertarian blog - what is the proper role for the national government in this disaster? Libertarians are all for limiting the size and role of government. But do we want it to disappear totally?

The federal government should act upon the collective will of the citizens. The vast majority would like to assist the victims of the disaster, even if some degree of personal irresponsibility contributed to their fate. FEMA should do whatever is necessary to help as many people survive the ordeal as possible (food, water, shelter). The effects of the disaster are too great for private and local relief capabilities. Beyond assisting with essential survival the Feds should stay away. I do not want the feds to spend my tax money on rebuilding a city that will be wiped out by some future hurricane. And Joe - I do not care how callous this may sound.

[Will Allen]

Thanks, cjennings. The primary source of this disaster is that too many people didn't leave the city, for whatever reason. It seems to me the most cost-effective way of getting people out of the city is to pay'em to leave. Hell, if all 800,000 had taken up the offer, that's only 80 million spent, which is a lot cheaper than trying to evacuate 100,000 plus after the fact, plus incurring all the health-related expense.

[Max]

I am a bit confounded by some of the 'they deserved it', 'they knew it would happen' and 'why bother rebuilding' comments.
Starting to feel that if the number one id'ed FEMA threat from the list of top 3 happen, ie. a terrorist bomb goes off in NYC, you are going to have people on this blog saying I was a fool to live in NYC and that all NYC'ers who didn't get out ahead of time deserved to die.
Just like NOLA, NYC is one of the social/economic engines that run this country.
Thus NOLA must be re-built. Hasert is a freaking moron who obviously does not have a clue as the the scale of infrastructure that is in NOLA (including the Missisippi).
So, other than depopulating CA, LA, MS, FLA, OK, TX, and a few other states given to natural disasters, we have to tough it out. And since we all pay taxes, I think it is our right to complain when our government toatlly fails in it duties.

[Dynamist]

Nice theory, joe. The land was drained at the behest of government. Of course there was corruption, and developers were enriched, but how is that different from any project you've worked on?

[poco]

The only states I can think of that are not prone to any disastrous "acts of God" are in the mountain time zone. Maybe New England too (blizzards don't count, do they?).

[Isaac Bartram]

The only states I can think of that are not prone to any disastrous "acts of God" are in the mountain time zone.

I dunno 'bout that. Just wait 'til the Yellowstone Caldera blows its top. Seriously, there have been some major earthquake in the Yellowstone area. After all, how did that land get folded up like that in the first place.

[Will Allen]

When the Yellowstone caldera blows, some folks are going to say that the Almighty is mad at the entire North American continent, if not a good chunk of the Northern Hemisphere.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

Charlie -- I'll say it again: I have no freakin' idea how best to respond to, or prepare for, a huge natural catastrophe. I'm just looking at the response to this, and opining that it's inadequate.

And I'm asking "why?" For a magazine called "Reason" that doesn't seem unjustified. Maybe you could start a new magazine called "Ignorant Opining." Although God knows the market for that seems kind of glutted.

(Actually, what I was doing with this post, was comparing the political -- and not necessarily the practical -- urgencies of Congress over two different situations ... but whatever.)

Well, actually, Congress met and passed an appropriation bill last night. 72 hours versus weeks of furor --- and three days of debate --- over Schiavo. But remember what you said?

"... Congress is only now getting around to talking about replenishing the rapidly draining FEMA budget."

Are you somehow under the impression that FEMA's checks were about to bounce? Just maybe it wasn't all that urgent to move more money from the equity line into the checking account?

What you describe sounds intriguingly Swiss, but I don't think it's feasible or desirable.

I'm enough of a libertarian that I don't think it's desirable, but then I was just groping for some notion of what could provide the US with all the resources it needs to handle any --- or rather, almost any --- disaster.