This Is Your Utah Law Enforcement on Drugs

So what news of that Utah rave busted up by 90 military-style SWAT team cops with automatic weapons, helicopters, tear gas and dogs? Scanning today's Mormon State newspapers we get a bunch of illuminating justifications and outright lying from cops and politicians. For instance, this passage in a Salt Lake Tribune article:

"I stand by everything that was done there that night. We did use some force. It was appropriate and necessary to take those who were fighting us into custody," [Utah County Sheriff Jim] Tracy said.

He also said that no officers used profanity as they conversed with partiers, nor did they punch, kick, Mace or use tear gas on any of the attendees.

"It's all a lie and we refute every word of that," said Tracy.

But the video clearly shows an officer using profanity as he demands the music be turned off.

Tracy's punching, kicking and chemical non-using claims are also refuted by various eyewitness accounts; click on links beginning here and here.

The police said they moved in because organizers didn't obtain a "mass gathering" permit, to allow for crowds larger than 300.** Organizers did obtain a health permit, and reports differ** on whether they got the mass gathering permit or not, but

"That's all smoke and mirrors," said County Commissioner Steve White. "They were selling drugs. They were committing illegal acts, and as soon as that happened it doesn't matter what kind of permit they had."

The awful kicker? Several of the 60 or so people arrested were private security guards, booked on drug possession, because they had searched incoming ravers and confiscated their illegal drugs.

"[Security guards] have no legal statutory authority to take and hold controlled substances. It's against the law for them to have them," Tracy said.

** UPDATE: Commenter Jason Ramsey reports that the "mass gathering" permit was in fact obtained:

I spoke directly with Jay Stone who handles the Mass Gathering permits for the Utah County Health Department's Bureau of Environmental Health Services, and he stated unequivocably that the permit was applied for and granted by his department. He also agreed to write a letter to this effect upon request. The questions about whether or not the permit was issued should be answered and not up for dispute. I am currently attempting to reach the Utah County Board of Commissioners to resolve whether or not an additional permit would have been required by their office. Initial conversations with "Michelle" at their office seemed to indicate that this was not the case.

Comments

[smacky]

hmmmm...to reiterate, this is why I hated junior high and high school. Because it was then that I realized that "trusted adults" are not as common an occurrence as I had once thought, and that in fact adults lie ALL THE TIME to justify their own ridiculous, inexcusable control-freak behaviors. This is also why, despite the fact that I no longer use illegal substances for the most part, I will still always support the counter-culture/drug-culture movement as a blow against The Man.

[Matt]

Okay, there was a slight bit of action-talk on the last post. I dont know if anyone here has a friend of a friend who is plugged in with any of the defendants in Salt Lake, but I would be happy to post some cash towards the defense team if they are going to fight these bastards.

100$ aint much by itself, any others outraged?

[Flagrente Delectio]

I can't believe that people actually defend those date-raping scumbags that call themselves "rave" people. It's no surprise that everyone there had drugs, especially the security guards, and as the illegal weapons arrests show, the full force of a SWAT team was needed.
Haven't you all heard of PCP?!?! Drugs make people crazy. These kids could have been on anything, and those brave policemen needed to be assured of their safety. I can't really think of any other way the city/state could've handled the situation.
You can't trust videos like that "impartial observer's" that's posted on the internet. How can you guys trust a bunch of druggy kids and ignore the much more reliable police reports?!?!

[Kids Don't Follow]

There's obviously several different castes according to these asshole cops (sorry for the redundancy) - there's the coercing politicians, there's the coercing cops, and then there's all those untermensch civilians. I suppose the large newspaper publishers/journalists consider themselves a cut above civilians.

[ChicagoTom]

I am outraged, and would consider donating to a legal defense fund, as long as said contribution doesn't put me on some kind of government watch list as a suporter of drug dealers 🙂

[Flagrente Delectio]

Also, it makes perfect sense that they caught all those people on a permit violation. They couldn't arrest Al Capone except through a tax evasion case.

[wsdave]

A comment on one of the blog boards was that the cops didn't just get a call while they were sitting around the donut shop: They knew about the rave well in advance and planned to raid it. If they didn't want the rave to occure, they could have shut it down at 9:30 when there were only 500 people there and it was still light out. Instead they wait until 11 to create "shock and awe" (to quote Bush) among the populace.

Who says cops aren't a PR machine...

[Eric II]

America is neither free nor brave, but a land of tight, iron-clanking little wills, everybody trying to put it over everybody else, and a land of men absolutely devoid of the real courage of trust, trust in life's sacred spontaneity. They can't trust life until they can control it.

-- D.H. Lawrence

[mediageek]

From what I've heard, Mormons aren't allowed to ingest any drug whatsoever; pot, coke, heroine, alcohol, caffeine, nicotine, guarana.

Perhaps they should purge the Utah cops of any Mormon officers who seem to be tripping on a big ol' dose of power...

[fyodor]

Interesting about the security guards. Makes sense, in a sense, that they're not legally authorized to possess illegal drugs any more than any other private citizen. But then, how do organizations that throw parties protect themselves from the charge that their party is a drug-selling front?

Question: does Utah have a law similar to the federal RAVE Act? Cause it seems they're using similar logic. Especially the way the County Commissioner uses a generic "they" to describe who was selling drugs. I don't see by what logic the state gets to shut down an entire event based on certain attendees breaking the law. Saying that, though, makes me realize I'm probably being naive. It probably happens all the time. As long as the attendees and organizers are not upstanding and powerful members of the society, that is.

[Eric the .5b]

He also said that no officers used profanity as they conversed with partiers, nor did they punch, kick, Mace or use tear gas on any of the attendees.

"It's all a lie and we refute every word of that," said Tracy.

But the video clearly shows an officer using profanity as he demands the music be turned off.

It apparently doesn't require "community policing" to have cops extralegally brutalizing misbehaving kids.

[John]

Who found Elizabeth Smart? Not the cops; it was an unemployed factory worker who spotted her when he was at Kinko's copying his resume.

Sanitation workers found what was left of Lori Hacking.

Heck, let's go back to Mark Hoffman. He blew himself up, otherwise, he never could have been caught.

Utah cops could not find a Twinkie in Kirstie Alley's cupboard.

Also, this is not your father's Utah. We have all the same gangs as LA does, but they are better shots.

Who are the cops going to bust? Actual gang members who might shoot back? Or a bunch of teenyboppers?

[Eddy]

"Several...arrested were private security guards...because they had searched incoming ravers and confiscated their illegal drugs."

That's ok, it only means that from now on guards won't be so thorough with searches.

Guard: got anything on you?
Raver: just this big ol' bag of weed.
Guard: well...don't let me catch you with nail clippers.

[Jim]

I feel sorry for kids today. My friends and I used to throw raves back when I was in high-school in the mid/late 80's in the Sacramento area. Cops used to break them up all the time. The difference then was that we knew what we were doing was illegal. We broke into buildings and threw parties on other people's property. We knew we were breaking the law and generally expected to be arrested.
Now days, I think it's great that party promoters do their best to throw a legitimate party, but that's still not enough for the power-mongers. That's just pathetic. Do the do-gooder power-mongers want the scene to go back underground? Go back to blatantly breaking the law? That's what it looks like.
The totally ironic thing is that, in all the parties I was involved in during the late 80's and all the times I got arrested for being involved, I was NEVER treated this bad, never even close. I was never even charged with a crime. I got arrested several times, but the cops just held me in jail for a few hours, then let me go. Heck, most of the cops were kinda cool. They came down hard on people who possesed drugs, but for most people, they just told us to leave. One cop even told me he was gonna stay at the party because he liked the loud music, but if he saw one person doing drugs, he was gonna have to break it up.
Things have changed since 'my day'. I feel sorry for kids now. 🙁

[independent worm]

Arm the ravers. With lots and lots of big, dangerous, high-powered weapons (legal ones, of course). You don't see the cops raiding the Elohim compound, do you? Hell, they've got known terrorists and terrorist supporters in there, and we're supposedly fighting a war against those people. But nope... pack enough heat, and the chickenfuckers will find someplace else to make it look like they're doing something useful.

[smacky]

Utah cops could not find a Twinkie in Kirstie Alley's cupboard.

Best quote of the thread! ^_^

[grummun]

So, the organizers hire security and actually make an effort to confiscate drugs on the way in, and get busted on possession for their troubles. Ironic, and infuriating.

Who says cops aren't a PR machine...

See "Operation Showboat."

[Jordy]

"Maybe Osama Bin Laden was there?" Did they catch him?

[Jeff]

One point of interest:
I've never been to a show or festival outside of a concert venue that didn't have police present. Especially way out in the wilderness. And having helped organize and promote a few shows I know that the presence of cops (usually one for every X number of people) is a pre-requisite for getting a show insured. I've never heard of a show where private security covers this clause.
It is also standard procedure to meet with police before the show to go over local regs, parking do's and don'ts, and emergency procedure.
Many police forces have departments that handle such events.
The cops appear to have been left out of the planning stages of this show.

[Eric the .5b]

The cops appear to have been left out of the planning stages of this show.

And yet they seemed well-informed about the planning of the show.

[Vanya]

So Jeff,

Are you saying the cops pulled this stunt primarily because the organizers forgot (or refused) to pay off the cops before hand? From a Russian perspective that makes a lot of sense.

[Jennifer]

So the right to peaceably assemble, especially on private property with the consent of the owner, only applies if you get written permission from the cops first?

[Herman]

Comment by: Flagrente Delectio at August 23, 2005
There's the good old Jane! No more gratuitous Bush statements, just good commenting.

Though H&R has linked to a livejournal! OMGWTFBBQ!

[Julian Sanchez]

I've been to some huge summer things thrown by Phish--many tens of thousands of people--where it sure looked as though they'd dispensed with police in favor of orange shirted "safety" officers.

[Jeff]

I love how everyone thinks I defending the cops, here. Although Vanya's idea is quite possible.

Eric: The cops said upfront that they regularly collect flyers for area shows. Plus I gather it wasn't hard to find, what with the lasers in the middle of the desert and all.

Jennifer: The right to assemble doesn't apply here. This was a for-profit show. The land owner no doubt demanded a certain amount of insurance, as did any shipped-in talent (one DJ was from London), and I'm certain the organizers covered thier butts for damages etc. The same applies to any concert. Concert tix are a license of attendance (says so right on the back).

My point is that this seems to be a REALLY big omission that neither side is addressing. The cops could have been miffed that they were not hired for security. They may have a beef with the security outfit that was hired, although it sounds like they were a bunch of guys the organizers knew.

BTW, the cop's quote is correct about controlled substances, regardless if they were confiscated.
A guard who doesn't realize that taking something illegal from someone and putting in your pocket constitutes possession really shouldn't be hired as a guard.

[Fred]

I'm guessing the promoters tried hiring private security to keep the cops out, but I'm wondering if the cops were approached to provide security first, but declined due to the fact that they were guessing there was going to be too much illegal activity going on. Generally I've found that when off-duty officers are providing security it keeps on-duty officers off the premises and things pretty much go on unchecked.

It's standard procedure to ask people to stop filming and confiscate cameras, and I've seen cops swarm people the same way for smoking marijuana at concerts. I think the rave kids are exaggerating a bit of what went on.

However, it reminds me of the K-Mart parking lot incident here in Houston when HPD tried to crack down on illegal drag-racing and arrested a couple hundred teens. They got sued by all the parents, had to pay a big settlement and several cops lost their jobs. We'll probably see a similar result here.

[Jennifer]

It's standard procedure to ask people to stop filming and confiscate cameras

It shouldn't be.

[Nagging Questions Dep't]

It's standard procedure to ask people to stop filming and confiscate cameras

I don't see the policy reason for this. It is difficult to see the public harm caused by pictures. It is easy to see why pictures help (eg, in trials). It seems like the police should want as many pictures as possible. If they are innocent, then nothing bad will happen to them.

[Russ D]

Are there any police officers reading this blog?
Because I have a serious question, based mostly on my teenage experience and the experiences of teenagers today.

My friends and I got busted several times back in the Ronny Raygun days, and the worst that ever happened is the cops confiscated our stash. There were all sorts of verbal threats, but basically if they took our stuff and made us scram that was the end of it.

But now it seems like the police are under extreme pressure to use extreme pressure. 20 years ago they'd let us go, now they can't because if anything happens later and the kid is found having ingested a substance the wackos like MADD don't like, it may come out that a previous encounter with the police wasn't dealt with to the extreme.

Is this the case? I'm just assuming this is the change in policing because the cops in my days never seemed like the new generation of Mulsim Moral Police we appear to have today.

[Jeff]

Good point, Fred. Hiring off-duty cops is usually the best bet. They usually show up in uniform anyway. Cops love gigs like that. Especially punk shows. Too much slam dancing to single out an actual fight.
Regardless, private security-for-hire STILL can't confiscate goods and hang onto them.
And for the record, I've seen police actions at prog festivals, new wave shows, and a jazz club in New Orleans.
I wonder if any classical concerts have ever been raided...

[Jeff]

Nagging: Stop-Filming procedures may date back to the 70's, when Super 8 cameras resembled guns.
I once had a cop follow me for six miles because he thought I was aiming a gun out my car window.

[Nagging Questions Dep't]

I guess that's true. And modern, small cameras could be detonators that will surely be activated unless there are 7 shots to the dome.

[mike_twincities]

Hmm, how to phrase the seething anger and contempt I have for Utah...

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

ACCEPT THE STATE

Grr..I'm ready to live in a bunker in Wyoming and start stock-piling firearms and food.

Live free, fall or fight.

[Deep Events]

I have organized and promoted several large events (5K in attendance or more). In addition to private security, I have _always_ hired police officers to be present. There are several reasons for this:

1) My insurance company provides reduced cost policies when local law enforcement is provided as part of the security. I have hired off-duty cops (in uniform) and have had on-duty cops (however I have had to pay fees to the local PD to cover their time). Some of the "private security" is also made up by off-duty cops.

2) Cops in my employee rarely try to affect arrests for illegal drug use and other violations. Mostly they will issue warnings and understand that most of the people are there to have a good time (and many of them enjoy the music as well). However if you are drug dealer and are caught doing business you will have a problem.

3) Any illegal substances that are confiscated are handed to them and are usually placed into drums with small openings. At outdoor events, we usually add gasoline to these drums and burn the contents during cleanup. Any confiscated weapons (knives, guns, batons, etc) are also handed to them and we have confiscated many different kinds of weapons, usually with out incident.

4) Cops have radios and other resources that can be utilized in the event of an emergency and can summon assistance far faster then dialing 911.

5) In the event that an arrest is warranted, they have the power to do that.

6) Local law enforcement is invited to attend planning meetings in person or by phone so that we can get their input.

7) Events ALLWAYS go much smoother when local LEO have been hired.

8) We try to hire as many locals as possible for various jobs, such as cleanup, stage hands, etc.

During the events that I have organized, the cops have been very nice to work with. However those events have been in New York State.

The events that took place in Utah this weekend sure seem very heavy handed and unwarranted and using soldiers does not seem right.

[Jason Ramsey]

I spoke directly with Jay Stone who handles the Mass Gathering permits for the Utah County Health Department's Bureau of Environmental Health Services, and he stated unequivocably that the permit was applied for and granted by his department. He also agreed to write a letter to this effect upon request. The questions about whether or not the permit was issued should be answered and not up for dispute. I am currently attempting to reach the Utah County Board of Commissioners to resolve whether or not an additional permit would have been required by their office. Initial conversations with "Michelle" at their office seemed to indicate that this was not the case.

[Kwix]

According to the Utah County Ordinances located at :
http://www.utahcountyonline.com/apps/WebLink/Dept/ATTY/Chap13.pdf

13-4-2-1 Required.
No person shall permit, maintain, promote, conduct, advertise, act as entreprenuer, undertake, organize, manage or sell or give tickets to an actual or a reasonably anticipated assembly of two hundred fifty (250) or more people which continues or can be reasonably expected to continue for twelve (12) more hours, whether on public or private property unless a license to hold assembly has first been issued by the County Commissioners.

I guess the first question is, did the promoter have reason to expect his rave to last 12 hours? If not, then the whole thing is bogus anyway. For what it's worth, this ordinance was drafted in 1971, probably in response to the whole "hippy campout" syndrome (eg. Woodstock). The ordinance itself it a bit bogus anyway because part of the rule is that in order to obtain the license you have to present to them a full list of plans and contingencies which constitutes "organization", which unless you have this license is illegal.

[chad]

What were the security guards going to do with the drugs after they confiscated them? I wonder...

(sounds like a good way to score some free drugs!)

[Ken Hagler]

As several other comments have hinted at, here is the real reason for this story:

"The awful kicker? Several of the 60 or so people arrested were private security guards, booked on drug possession, because they had searched incoming ravers and confiscated their illegal drugs.

"[Security guards] have no legal statutory authority to take and hold controlled substances. It's against the law for them to have them," Tracy said."

That will be the last time someone tries to organize an event in that area without paying off the samurai hiring local law enforcement to provide security. Mission accomplished.

[Sigivald]

Chad: From comments from bouncers/guards I've heard, they often give away or do the drugs they "confiscate". Some might even sell them.

After all, who's going to stop them?

Also, Jeff, I don't think Spanish Fork Canyon is really "the middle of the desert", but I still don't think you could miss a rave in one, no.

[Torrrrrrr]

Where did the military come from, who authorized their use in a civil situation, who was in command of the troops, and generally what in the hell is going on here? Is posse comitatus actually gone?

[Delilah]

This message is to Flagrente Delectio...your comment about the rave kids being "date raping scumbags that call themselves RAVE people" is so unbelievably ignorant.
This only leades me to believe that you probably dont even know a teenager, let alone one that LOVES to dance. I have worked with juveniles in detention facilities for MANY years. Many who are in the "rave scene" and many who are in the "gang scene"...which would YOU rather have...your kid out all night dancing or perhaps shooting eachother on the streets. A RAVE is a place where there is no discrimination & everyone can relax and have a good time. Anyone taking PCP etc...obvioulsly is lacking in any parental guidance in the home. Where do you live? Preston Idaho? Population 300? Welcome to the real world, baby!

[Jeff]

Sigivald: My comment was spurred by my ignorance of Utah geography. Never been there.
Still, the idea of cops looking out across the desert to see a Close Encounters blaze of laser light, and feel the Earth shake with distant drum 'n' bass is pretty cool.

"Looks like somthin' might be goin' on there, sherriff."
" Yep. 'Spose we should check it out."

[Charles Oliver]

The Utah County SWAT team seems to get around. They were the subject of a Brickbat a few days ago for a totally unrelated matter.

[prodigous]

Seems to me these types of venues should invest in some kind of elctronic security. Even just setting up webcams. I know of a several rave clubs that do. If only to keep Police and security on the up and up.

[Tim in PA]

"Where did the military come from, who authorized their use in a civil situation, who was in command of the troops, and generally what in the hell is going on here? Is posse comitatus actually gone?"

You really think most of these people can tell the difference between SWAT and military? Some other guy was claiming they had AK-47's. Guy probably woulnd't know a Kalashnikov if it bit him in the ass.

[Chico Panther]

It sounds like the ravers need to get some folks on juries who understand the principle of "jury nullification." In other words, if you're a juror and don't believe a crime has been committed, then you vote "NOT GUILTY!" If enough juries did that for law enforcement abuses like this, then the cops would quite doing BS like this.

[gs]

How much of that police equipment was bought with Federal money? Meanwhile, as Glenn Reynolds correctly keeps repeating, homeland security is still a joke. When partygoers are attacked by masked police using automatic weapons, tear gas, and guard dogs, the joke isn't funny. Remember Goose Creek SC where armed police invaded a high school?

Sue them. Cut their budgets and force layoffs. That's the only feasible language they'll understand.

[izzy]

Deseret News (Or was it the Salt Lake Tribune) claims that they needed TWO different types of permits and that they only had the type provided by the Health Dept.

[izzy]

This from the Salt Lake Tribune:

Saturday's party, named Versus II, had been tracked by police for several weeks, Gilbert said. Police planned the bust when they discovered that the rave's promoters had not filed for a mass gathering permit through the County Commission office. To have more than 250 at an event without that permit is a violation of the law, Gilbert said.

Party promotor Brandon Fullmer said he purchased a mass gathering permit through the Utah County Health Department about three weeks ago. The purchase of that permit, which ensures water, sanitation and medical services, was confirmed by County Health employee Jay Stone.

Fullmer did not know that a similar permit, which requires a security plan and event details, needed to be acquired.

Source:
http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_2964938

So, this doesn't contradict what Jason Ramsey said. They had one permit, but they didn't have the County Commission Office's permit.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

You people just keep dissing Utah. They're actually quite progressive. The max sentence for murder is five-to-life. Scott Peterson should have killed Lacey on the slopes.

[Slocum]

It seems like the police should want as many pictures as possible. If they are innocent, then nothing bad will happen to them.

More than that -- the police should want as many pictures and as much video as possible both as potential evidence against defendents (who violently resist arrest, for example) AND as potential evidence against any claims of excessive force on their own part.

Demanding that those with cameras stop filming can only be interpreted as wanting a 'free hand' with detainees without there being any evidence later of what they did with those hands. Disgusting.

[cowboyx]

Delilah, that was a joke...

izzy, I wonder if anyone will say "we tried to tell him he didn't get a permit"? It seems to make sense that you don't send the SWAT team and plan for weeks a raid, when the crime seems to be an administrative forms issue...and if the one permit was obtained three weeks ago, and the cops began planning the raid several weeks ago, what keyed them? The port-o-potty order? Is is standard policy in this county to send in the swat team for all permit violations? Heh, I hope everyone gets a proper permit before adding rain gutters to their homes.

[gunner]

I think the question we are missing people is what would have been the punishment for not getting the permit. The punishment in the WACO case for the gun laws broken would have been a couple of thousand. So what would be the fine?

If the fine was 1000$ then the police responce was out of proportion to the "crime".

Will check this out and return.

[C Bennett]

"Private Security Force" is often party-code for "don't worry about cops." A significant proportion of these people (taken nationally) have felonies on their records and, for the most part, just like authority, guns, uniforms (sometimes), and part-time work. This is especially true of those security firms that are not too expensive. That's why insurance companies give much lower rates to organizers who work directly with the local cops -- on- and off-duty.

It seems likely that the final story might be that the organizers tried to cut some corners, didn't have reasonable security or commuication with local law enforecement, the partying got a little out of hand and included drug exchanges, the "private security" appear to be clueless regarding their legal status in this regard -- all wrong. They should just admit it.

Does that warrant a para-military response? Is there precedent for this level of force being appropriate? There is a wide range of 'compliance' practiced in these types of social gatherings -- does any of it warrant soldiers? They didn't have a permit -- so, bring in troops?

[pedant]

Torrrr, Tim in PA:

Some time ago, someone here took me to task for throwing around "Posse Comitatus" on hit-and-run myself. Basically, I learned, the 1878 Posse Comitatus act applies only to Federal Army and Air Force (and is duplicated by DoD regulation, not law, for Navy and Marines) active and reserve assets. It does not, and has never, applied to state "National Guard" forces acting under the authority of their state. If the president, via executive order, federalizes a national guard unit, then Posse Comitatus would apply. The first article stated the Utah County SWAT was aided by Utah National Guard.

So, there it is.

[Steve Edwards]

That's some crazy stuff. crap like this seems to be happening to us more and more, and it's not just in the rave community either...

[l.Pink]

http://www.co.utah.ut.us/Dept/Sheriff/InmateDetail.asp?id=179415

note to above comments on weapons.

this was the single only weapons charge that day and he was one of the land owners.

[Ben Masel]

The permit mess: connect the dots.

The Large Assembly ordinance dates from the Woodstock era, and has likely been forgotten.

Kid goes to City hall, asks what permits he needs, and is sent to the Health Dept. gets their Permit, asks "do I need anything else?" "No.'

Now the Sheriff decides he wants togo jihadi. Asks the Corp Counsel how he can shut them down. Corp counsel digs up the old ordinance, but he and the Sheriff decide to sandbag.

Before this is over the taxpayers will be laying out a half million in damages, and a similar amount in attorneys fees.

[Kevin Delaney]

Provo has a history of using technicalities in permits to close clubs, music venues and anything deemed by the local thought police to be undesirable. There is a steady stream or clubs that get opened by get shut down for various permit violations once they get popular.

It is a town filled with hormone filled students. A place gets popular. Bam. It maxes its permits. The city starts the harrassment cycle until the club gets closed.

[Elisha ben Abuyah]

-If a person wants to stage an event on their own property at which others attend voluntarily, permission is required by the State. Freedom of assembly, gone. Property rights, gone.

-The voluntary smoking or ingestion of organic or synthetic compounds which produce alterations in consciousness at such voluntary events constitutes criminal activity in the eyes of the State. The right to privacy (yes, I will take this right for myself, even if it is not "constitutional"), gone. Cognitive liberty, gone.

"...whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

We need to open our collective eyes and make some SERIOUS changes to the way things are in this country. And if the system is so broken and the people so ignorant as to preclude a true establishment of liberties, well, there are other ways of "abolishing" tyrannies, yes?

[jersey]

I've seen police actions at prog festivals, new wave shows