If you see your mother this weekend, be sure and tell her…

This won't surprise the folks at the Manhattan Institute, but apparently the Church of Satan is nostalgic for pre-Giuliani New York.

[Via GetReligion.]

Comments

[Snivelisation]

superbly titled!

[smacky]

If Satanism = rich sensual experiences, does that mean that the Red Devil hot sauce that I love so much is really evil?

[Rodney]

Nice Butthole Surfers reference.

[saw-whet]

Damn it! Beat out again. But I'll say it anyway. SATAN, SATAN, SATAN!

[Jared]

Well, its no Hairway To Steven, but Locust Abortion Technician isn't half shabby.

[Jeff]

What Would Satan Do? Classic.

I am reminded of the Hail Satan Crusade skit on Mr. Show. As well as the bit where Anton LeVay protests the use of Satan in advertising, and Crazy Devil brand hot sauce is offensive to Satanists everywhere.

[saw-whet]

Gotta exercise my last vestiges of hipness.

[kmw]

Hopefully I'm stating what everybody already knows, but Satanists don't worship "satan." They're atheists who feel an identity with the satan character of mythology.

It?s actually one of the few religions that don?t believe in anything supernatural. Which I?d find appealing ordinarily, but I can?t really get past the Jungian shit that a lot of members are involved in. I'm just not into gothic stuff.

[dhex]

plus, CoS folk tend to be HUUUUUUUUUUGE dorks.

[Jennifer]

Dhex-
Maybe, but I thought this past weekend's thread proved rather definitively that dorks make better boyfriends?

[dhex]

you're confusing nerds and geeks with dorks.

imagine the worst cape-wearing larper you'd ever met, and combine that with a 15 year old kid who read 150 pages of nietzche and thought it meant he could act like a mannerless asshole.

not everyone who has ever passed through the CoS is like that, mind you, but i'm willing to be somewhat bigoted in this regard.

not to mention the whole "oh god i wish times square was more dangerous" thing. but that's a sadly common thing from some people these days, especially the midwestern transplants. people are fuckwits, basically.

[Jared]

Yeah fuck satanists, give me elitist atheists who use any and every tradgedy as a spring board for their (lack of) beliefs.

[Jeff]

Riiiiight, Jared. Christians NEVER do that...

[mediageek]

plus, CoS folk tend to be HUUUUUUUUUUGE dorks.

Which might explain their involvement with the CoS. After all, if their doctrine is all about indulging in decadant (sp?) carnalities, then they probably reason that their chances of actually scoring go up.

Not a half-bad strategy, assuming that the place isn't a sausage fest.

[Jared]

Bah, its the jews who are always telling you "yahweh or the highway"

[Too Young]

who here didnt realize it was a butthole surfers reference, but did recognize it from the Orbital song "Satan"?

[David]

Jared,

Are you saying that as a Christian, someone who simply doesn't believe is worse than one who identifies with the embodiment of evil?

[SFC SKI]

He moved because he thought LA was not carnal and indulgent enough?

[Rodney]

A little while back, I sent the following email to the CoS; they never wrote back:

From: Rodney Anonymous

Subject: "Faith-based" grants

Dear Church of Satan,

As I'm sure you already know, George W. Bush recently called for an increase in government grants to "faith-based" service agencies. So far, all of the groups which have received money have been Christian organizations, and many of these organizations haven't had very nice things to say about your Church in the past.

That's why I'd like to suggest that the Church of Satan apply for a "faith-based" grant. I don't know what services you offer (Although a good friend of mine claims to have gotten married to two other people at once in your Church) but I sure they have to be better than teaching abstinence to 10,000 horny students in Ohio (a group called The Pregnancy Decision Health Center got 1.5 Million for that scam).

If the government approves your request then you get to do what thou wilt with the cash and everybody's happy - except Christian groups who will suddenly find themselves opposed to "faith-based" funding. If the government denies your request then you just sue the crap out of 'em. Either way, "faith-based" grants will be over, you'll walk away with a wad of cash, and all of those Christians who bad-mouthed you will be forced to return to going door-to-door to fund "Premarital Sex Causes Blindness '05".

I'm hoping that you'll seriously consider this proposal and I wish your
Church the best of luck,

Rodney Anonymous

[kevrob]

If you click through to the NY Press article, at the bottom of the page there's a graphic asking "Is New York Evil?" Click that and you get tourists' answering the question, with photos, "man on the street" style. Some of the answers are great.

Kevin

[drooling richard]

The History Channel aired (it was on cable, not broacasted) program last night about Satanism. The program proposed that Ben Franklin may have participated in their rituals.

Any facts on this, anyone ? Should I ask Cecil Adams ?

[mudfoot]

It's better to regret something you have done than it is to regret something you haven't done.

[dhex]

"Any facts on this, anyone ?"

considering the CoS was founded in 1966...

maybe they're confusing his involvement in masonic temples with something else?

[Rodney]

Drooling,
Ben Franklin belonged to The Hellfire Club. Not the CoS.

[drooling richard]

Last night's History Channel show just made the point that some people, during the Enlightment, may have engaged in Satanic rituals only to lampoon the Church's rituals.

Was Ben one of them ?

[SPD]

This is from the Wikipedia entry on Anton LaVey:

At the end of 1969, LaVey melded philosophical influences from Ayn Rand, Nietzsche, Mencken, and Jack London with the philosophy and ritual practices of the Church of Satan... to create The Satanic Bible.

This is from the "Satanism" link:
There is a libertarian element here; diversity is encouraged, everyone is expected to discover their own sexuality, chart their own personality, and decide their own ambitions in life. In this stress on individuality

Uh, guys? Is there something you're not telling me?

[Rodney]

Drooling,

Yes, Ol? Ben participated in the rituals of The Hellfire Club: including, once, dressing an orangutan up as the Pope.

[Lazlo]

Too Young: I know it's a Butthole Surfers sample but I definitely think of Orbital first (not owning -- or possibly even having ever heard -- anything by the Butthole Surfers). Does that count?

[bago]

The Sinner, and The Saint.

[David Woycechowsky]

Anonymous, Walker, Buttholes and How!

This Reason board has the funnest people.

[kmw]

Yes, SPD, you've discovered the awful truth... all Libertarians are secret Satanists. 😉

[Lucifer]

I'd prefer a party that got into power once in a while...

[Lowdog]

Now someone's got to start telling us all how libertarians and Satanists are the same, because they mostly espouse libertine tendencies, not actual libertarian tendencies.

Right?

[The Devil's Dupe]

Lucifer just confessed to being a Republicrat. Not that there was ever any doubt.

Does anyone know difference between Lucifer, Satan, the Devil, etc.? Is there any biblical basis for this, or is it all extra-biblical mythology? We bible illiterate atheists want to know who it is who has been duping us for so long.

[Jadagul]

Well, Devil's Dupe, I'm not going to remember all the details, but I know some. "Satan" is a word that literally means "adversary"; it appears fairly early on in the Old Testament, but doesn't take on it's contemporary meaning until later. Satan first appears as an agent apparently subordinate to God, as in the book of Job, where Satan seeks God's permission to test Job's faith. I get the impression that early on, Satan was just supposed to be God's Devil's Advocate. Later he becomes evil, and the figure transmutes into our Prince of Darkness.

Lucifer was the name Satan supposedly went by before the Fall. I'm assuming that it comes from Milton, but I'm not sure. It means "Lightbearer"--as I understand it, Lucifer was the greatest and most beautiful of all God's angels, but because of this he became proud, rebelled, and was cast out of Heaven into Hell. Because he was so great, he was able to conquer and rule Hell ("Better to rule in hell than serve in heaven").

[Akira MacKenzie]

Please, you don't have to be a "Satanist" to hate the anti-sex, family-values-fascism that has decended upon Time Square. I'll take peep shows and porn theaters over Disney-NYC anyday.

[Jared]

"Are you saying that as a Christian, someone who simply doesn't believe is worse than one who identifies with the embodiment of evil?"

Are you saying I'm a christian?

Not that I would call myself an atheist, jsut more of a guy who doesn't give 2 shits about religion, and as such, has none.

But you know.

[SPD]

Akira,

Hey, I wasn't serious. Just me being a smart-ass. Although the references in Wikipedia were a little... let's just say, "curious."

[Pat Mathews]

If New York has become too respectable for the Church of Satan, I have two alternatives in mind.

If they're interested in sins of the flesh and happily parading for things that freak the fundies, I'd suggest Baghdad-by-the-Bay.

If they're interested in power, money, and screwing people over, I'd suggest Washington DC

[David T]

See http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.satanism/msg/33269ab402cb856c for Satan's *real* identity...

[Akira MacKenzie]

SPD:

Oh, I wasn't referring to you're post. The CoS has always been a head scratcher to me. To me, they come off as just a bunch of contrarian's out to piss off the fundies, which is always a praise worthy activity. However, I would think that it would piss the bible-beaters off so much more for one to deny that any supernatural supreme being exists, be they be "good" or "evil."

I always thought that "Lucfier" was a Christianization of of the Greek God Prometheus, since the light/fire-bringer and defier-of-the-gods myths appeared very close. After a wikipedia search, there doesn't seem to be a connection. Poor Venus. It's bad enough that the planet is a greenhouse hell, it also has be associated with an "evil" entity by a bunch of uptight Hebrews?

I do like Arthur C. Clarke's take on it. I have to start reading the 2001 books.

[kmw]

Akira,

Like I tried to subtly hint in my 12:29 PM post, satanists don't actually worship satan. In fact, they don't believe he or anything supernatural exist. They readily admit to being atheists.

They believe the "image" of satan is giving in to whatever one desires, and that's about the long and short of their doctrine.

Have a look at this.

[Akira MacKenzie]

kwm:

Sorry, I missed that one. Beseems I was hoodwinked by a lifetime of Christian propaganda about "devil worship." Under that definition, I can see how "Satanism" can appeal to the libertarian. However, I too can't get into the "goth" thing.

Also, I don't really see the need for atheists to take up the trappings of a cult. Whether its Satanism, Unitarianism, or Obejectivism. [edit: Author is ducking from all heavy objects being thrown at him by ravening Randites.] I mindless worship and groupthink is one of the negative aspects of religion (and I think it is) why sink down to religion's level and adopted it to an atheist viewpoint?

[dhex]

and how mindful is atheism in general?

[Jennifer]

Akira-
Just to speculate on your question, maybe it's because in our society things go easier if you're a member of a religion. If you're a prisoner, you can demand certain concessions to your religion that you can't demand as an atheist. (Florida even started giving some prisoners special privileges IF they agreed to join some 'faith-based' self-improvement thing.) And remember that thread a little while ago about some judge giving drug users the choice of church attendance or jail? If I were given such a choice I would definitely join a Satanist community, first thing.

[sam]

in the Old Testament, Satan ("Adversary," as was pointed out above) was basically God's Prosecuting Attourney, at least in the way it was described to me. frankly, jesus's beef with him is one of the more mystifying bits of what he has to say (along that with whole, "if you wanna hang out with me, you have to hate your parents" bit)

[Jadagul]

Like I said, Sam, the mythology behind Satan transformed through time. In his first appearance he was as you describe; I believe, but I'm not certain, that he becomes more and more like the Satan Jesus addresses as the Old Testament progresses. At any rate, by the time the New Testament was written, he seems to have changed from God's subordinate to God's opponent.

As for hating your parents--hey, Jesus was a hippie. "Trust no one over thirty," anyone?

[joe]

"Now someone's got to start telling us all how libertarians and Satanists are the same, because they mostly espouse libertine tendencies, not actual libertarian tendencies."

That, and the elevation of the individual self to the status of godhead.