"Girls, this is the night we're finally gonna get us some men. There's a whole pack of 'em downtown next to the Bijou, lined up to see Revenge of the Sith, and they ain't moving for the next three days."

The New York Daily News is reporting that "nerds make better lovers." I thought this had been common knowledge ever since the release of the geek-chic ur-film Revenge of the Nerds (Kanew, 1984), in which Robert Carradine attributes his erotic prowess to the fact that "jocks only think about sports, while nerds only think about sex." The Daily News ignores that particular statement, and instead offers E. Jean Carroll's comment that "a nerd is an excellent provider and a guy who puts you first." Take that, Alpha Betas!

Comments

[Jeff]

Damn straight!
(sitting here tapping my foot impatiently waiting for Jennifer to back me up on this...)

[Ogre]

NNNEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRDDDDDSSSSS!

[Charles Oliver]

Has anyone been watching Beauty and the Geek on the WB?

If that's what passes for geekiness today, the Golden Age of nerddom is definitely over.

But some of those "geeks" definitely got game.

[Sandy]

The commenters at Slashdot ripped this a new one. I think it may be a back-handed self-image thing, but I also think that if your example is Tiger Woods, it proves something about how money and fame can be used to attract sexual partners in place of being a physical ideal.

I.E., they rediscovered the basis for prostitution, just like Levitt's monkeys.

[Jeff]

I work at a WB affiliate, and it's pretty obvious to me that both the men and women of Beauty and the Geek are handpicked to be stereotypes of their respective groups.
Also, as I work at the aforementioned station, I HAVE to watch it. There is no legitamate for an intelligent adult to tune in. It doesn't even pass muster as a guilty-pleasure trainwreck.

There was, however, a bit of a panic here when WB started running promos for this show during their afternoon Kids block.

[The Wine Commonsewer]

Funniest headline in a while.

From the grads at my school it was the people nobody paid much attention to who made the big spash. Not the nerds, not the jocks, not the cheerleaders (who all got PG), not the low riders, not the surfers. Just the regular kids who got B's and C's, ditched class now and again, fiddled with their cars on weekends, and sometimes had dates. Oh sure, you can't discount the brainiacs that got accepted to Yale Law and all that, but by and large in the final analysis most of those guys didn't do a whole lot better than the rest of us.

Guess I'm just babbling and I'll shut up and go back to work now.

[Charles Oliver]

Actually, I don't think the guys really are that geeky (with one exception), unless the definition of geek has changed to mean "shy, average-looking guy in bad clothes."

[Franklin Harris]

We're even better lovers if our partners agree to dress up as Wonder Woman, Princess Leia or a green-skinned Orion slave girl a la the original "Star Trek."

[Mr. Nice Guy]

I'm talking as a card-carrying geek. A nerd can make decent money. He may have qualities that the alpha-dogs lack.

But if a geek has the typical insecurities of a nerd, a woman will never respect him. She will always have a wandering eye out for an asshole, no matter how much she pretends that she's happy with a "nice guy".

[ha]

clap your hands everybody, and everybody clap your hands

[Jeff]

Nerds also tend to be more adept at illegally downloading chick flicks.
Sensativity, with a sense of danger.

[Jeff]

"Wonder Woman, Princess Leia or a green-skinned Orion slave girl"
BAH! It's been done. Gimme Princess Ardala from Buck Rogers, or any of the women from Dune or Farscape, or Leeloo from 5th Element.
Plus I don't want green greasepaint all over my naughtybits...

[PintofStout]

So does this mean that crass anti-intellectualism is coming to an end or is it still uncool to have a three digit IQ?

[PintofStout]

Using their helm of downloading plus 1, right?

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Lara Croft, as portrayed by Angelina Jolie. No question.

[PintofStout]

Off topic, sorta.

Anyone notice the ad at top left for Righttalk? Is that a picture of Yalta? Are Winnie and FDR geeks?

[Toshiro Takashi]

Hair pie!

[Jeff]

Dynagirl. Mmmmmm....Dyyyyyyynagirl.

[mediageek]

Jeff-

Having recently left a production job at an ABC affiliate where I was exposed to their program schedule for 8 hour shifts, I feel your pain.

[Jeff]

Mediageek,
Every time a bell rings, someone gets out of broadcasting. Congrats.

[Kurt]

Probably it's the quoting of movie lines that really gets the ladies.

What the fuck's a frush?

[Todd Fletcher]

They mean the Hollywood version of a geek: Brad Pitt with horn-rimmed glasses.

[Brian]

Yeah, looks like Yalta. Churchill gets the honeys G. (Are he and FDR suppose to decline in my estimation because of the babes? If so, it's not working).

[Katherine]

Is it even more nerdy to point out that the author of this article incorrectly used the terms 'nerd' and 'geek' synonymously?

[smacky]

I don't know what you guys are talking about regarding the FDR/Yalta thing, but when I look at the top left of my screen, I see a nerdy scientist-looking woman toking what looks like a big, fat homemade beaker bong.

But if a geek has the typical insecurities of a nerd, a woman will never respect him. She will always have a wandering eye out for an asshole, no matter how much she pretends that she's happy with a "nice guy".

This is also true for women who are nerds (i.e., a guy will be on the lookout for a "bitch", no matter how good he has it with an attractive nice woman).

Re: Hollywood version of geeks: Gotta love movies like "She's All That" - where the lead character, a female "nerd" is "transformed" from "ugly" to "hot" by simply removing her glasses and taking her hair out of her ponytail...gee, I never would have thought she were pretty if she had never taken her glasses off...

The funny thing is, I think many people really observe other people this way. People need to learn to use their imaginations once in a while. Some of us don't have time to style our hair for 2 hours every morning and paint on whore makeup....

[Brian]

Yes, the Geek/Nerd/Dork hierarchy was completely conflated by the author, and rest assured I was on the internet within minutes registering my disgust throughout the world.

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=75004

[dhex]

"Some of us don't have time to style our hair for 2 hours every morning and paint on whore makeup...."

try harder!

one caveat about nerdy girls - love 'em, married one of 'em, etc etc and so forth - is that many of them lack the traditional "girly" skills in many areas, so things like putting on makeup actually trends to the whorish due to inexperience.

on the plus side...yay glasses!

[smacky]

Since I brought up the topic of whore makeup, I thought I'd add an anecdote. Someone I went to college with had gone to the same highschool in PA as Christina Aguilera. From what she said, Christina was one of those weird, self-absorbed drama/theater/performance dweebs herself, whom a lot of people didn't know and who was not especially popular herself. So there you have it. She met her nerd equivalent, and the rest is history.

I also knew a girl in college who was in love with Tom Cruise, and who had in her youth taken dance classes with Katie Holmes (who is now dating Tom Cruise). I bet she's totally gnashing her teeth about the whole affair (hee hee!).

[Sam Grove]

Geek vs. Nerd
It doesn't have to be either/or, does it?
Is there a sliding scale or is it a matter of occasional overlap?

[smacky]

try harder!

I hope you weren't being serious when you said that.

[Ricky]

There are attractive nice women that aren't bitches. Where?

[dhex]

" I hope you weren't being serious when you said that."

of course not. i generally dislike makeup, especially because my wife can't really do it without help, and I AM NOT THAT HELPER.

[Jennifer]

There is a fine and subtle difference between nerds and geeks. I've never dated a nerd, but I've been living with Jeff the uber-Geek for years now, and I can say with authority that geeks are definitely good in bed, which is probably why I fell for him in the first place.

However, there is a geek hierarchy. Sci-fi geeks are definitely cool, but I'd look askance at an Amtrak geek or a British history geek (you don't wanna fuck anybody who's just going to close his eyes and think of England).

[Jeff]

The geek hierarchy
http://www.brunching.com/geekhierarchy.html

[Jeff]

Here's the big geek chart:
http://www.brunching.com/images/geekchartbig.gif

[Jesse Walker]

Is it even more nerdy to point out that the author of this article incorrectly used the terms 'nerd' and 'geek' synonymously?

"I'm not a nerd -- nerds are smart." --Milhouse

[Jennifer]

Jeff-
What is a "furrie?"

[Jesse Walker]

By the way, just to riff on Smacky's comments:

1. Horn-rimmed glasses are sexy on a woman.

2. Obvious make-up is not.

To each his own, of course, but I'm far from alone in holding these views, though you wouldn't guess it from Hollywood or the fashion magazines. Women should poll their guy friends as to who they think is cuter, Velma or Daphne. The results may surprise them.

[mk]

This is also true for women who are nerds (i.e., a guy will be on the lookout for a "bitch", no matter how good he has it with an attractive nice woman).

You got my number Smacky. My main problem with nerdy girls is that they are just too nice. I likes em' kinda evil (to my detriment).
Not that nerdy girls miss me. My experience is that nerdy girls fill a niche that most pretty girls couldn't begin to comprehend(literally). They pretty much get their pick.

[Jennifer]

Smacky-
Do you wear horn-rims? My regular glasses are those modern "invisible frame" ones, but for fun I have a kickass pair of black horn-rimmed cateye glasses with fifteen rhinestones over each eye. The reason I ask is that, while it's impossible to find anybody who makes prescription-ready cateye frames anymore, you can find some TRULY amazing frames on eBay for ridiculously low prices; my cateye glasses actually cost me less than my boring everyday ones.

I have a non-rhinestone cateye frame that I keep meaning to get fitted out with lenses, but I never seem to find the time.

[Jeff]

Jen, the wikipedia entry on Furries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furry

[Mr. Nice Guy]

"(you don't wanna fuck anybody who's just going to close his eyes and think of England)."

Awesome bit. You rock, Jennifer.

I would add that it would even be more fucked up if a guy closes his eyes and thinks of Lyndie England.

[John V.]

Brian,

That link is hilarious. It's also really close to the forumulation some friends and I came up with in college. Although, we had an additional dweeb classification. I can't really remember the details, but I think a dweeb is on of those people that nobody notices or talks to.

[mk]

Jennifer,

Selective eyewear elements (SEE) used to have some great frames like the ones you mentioned. I got a pair for my kid and they look awesome.

[smacky]

I guess I would be classified a dweeb, going by John V.'s 1:13PM comment. I will have to study the chart more closely later. Er, I mean, I'm not going to study on the weekend. I swear. I'm going to party all night!

mk,

I wish I could be a bitch. I lose more guys being overtly nice...it's a fatal character flaw of mine.

Jennifer,

No, I don't wear horn-rims...yet...I've been toying with the idea for years, and I, too, have browsed some cool frames on eBay, but I think I would feel too conceited wearing them...I mean, I will readily admit that they are cool-looking, but I refuse to look like I'm trying. I hate the thought of someone being attracted to me because of an accessory that I am donning. Plus I'm not sure I qualify as being hip enough to wear them.

[Katherine]

My experience is that nerdy girls fill a niche that most pretty girls couldn't begin to comprehend(literally.

Ahem! Being nerdy and being pretty are not mutually exclusive, you know.

[kwais]

Smacky,
"Some of us don't have time to style our hair for 2 hours every morning and paint on whore makeup."

Gawd dammit, another illusion shattered.

[Jennifer]

Smacky-
Having been born with a wide, square Slavic jaw, I like cateye glasses because they give me the illusion of having cheekbones. And if you wear cateyes, you are automatically hip enough to wear cateyes. It's a closed system. If I can pull off thirty rhinestones covering my eyebrows, you can pull off basic hornrims.

Actually, my cateyes are half-horn rims; black on the top and clear on the bottom. And having had this discussion, I am DETERMINED that this weekend I'll find time to put lenses in my other frames.

[kwais]

"I would add that it would even be more fucked up if a guy closes his eyes and thinks of Lyndie England."

but...but... the dog leash and the...

Why is that wrong?

[Jennifer]

Kwais-
Because the one holding the dog leash shouldn't look like a dog.

[David]

If you have Usagi Yojimbo TPBs, enjoyed Watership Down and like old Warner Bros cartoons, you're a furry?

I never knew I was so low on that hierarchy.

[Mo]

My main problem with nerdy girls is that they are just too nice. I likes em' kinda evil (to my detriment).

I used to date a bitchy, pretty nerd girl. Good lord, was she ever great. I do like the nice nerd girls too. The problem with nerd girls is that the population of nerd guys outweighs them so much, that the good ones are generally taken (see: Jennifer).

So do I have this stright, a nerd basically an intelligent geek? So Screech Powers is a nerd, not a geek then.

[Jeff]

It could be worse, you could lie back and think of England Dan and John Ford Coley.

[mk]

Ahem! Being nerdy and being pretty are not mutually exclusive, you know.

Of course not. I said "pretty" when I should have said "mundane".

Geez, it's a wonder I ever had a girlfriend with goof-ups like that.

[Pvt. Graner]

hey jenifer you shold not be making jokes abowt my gerl.. i happin to think she is beetiful like a ten yeer old boy you skwar jaw slav

[Jennifer]

Smacky-
There's also the benefit that horn-rim cateye glasses, though super-cool, nonetheless maintain a certain geek mystique, so that anyone who wears them is ASSUMED to be modest and self-effacing even if that person is, well, me. Kind of like the way people just assume you're rich if you have a cell phone, despite how cheap they are today.

[Mo]

people just assume you're rich if you have a cell phone

Did I just wake up in 1995?

[Jennifer]

Mo-
You haven't noticed? There still seems to be this leftover idea that anyone with a cell phone is a show-off or a snob, despite the fact that cell phones have been cheap for almost a decade now.

Maybe it's different where you are, in southern California.

[David]

Jennifer,

I've noticed that people over 40 seem to get genuinely pissed at anyone not wearing a suit who's taking on a cell phone. It doesn't matter whether they're being obnoxious or not.

[Timothy]

People, in Oregon and San Antonio at least, think you're a luddite if you don't have a cell phone these days. I know certainly think that.

[Jennifer]

David-
Exactly. A lot of those phones are cheaper than landlines, but many folks still have this idea that they're a fashion-snob statement. So Smacky should get herself some hornrims and wear them with pride.

[David]

Timothy,

It must be a New England/upstate NY/PA thing. When I travel to FL, everybody seems to have a cellphone.

[smacky]

Jennifer,

Thanks for the encouragement. Maybe someday I'll change my mind. Actually, I think I may have tried to get half-frame hornrims a few years ago, but they couldn't let me have them because my prescription made the lenses too thick to stay put in the frames. I guess that makes me an even bigger loser. (Under my prescription plan at the time there was literally only 1 or 2 decent-looking frames available to choose from, the half-frame hornrims having been one of them, the pair on my face being the other one. All the other frames looked like Midwestern gramma glasses. And not the cool kind.)

There's also the benefit that horn-rim cateye glasses, though super-cool, nonetheless maintain a certain geek mystique, so that anyone who wears them is ASSUMED to be modest and self-effacing

Contrary to your above statement, as a rule I almost always assume the opposite of people who wear horm-rim/cateye glasses, based on numerous past encounters with smug, rude, self-absorbed bastards who wear them. I live near 5 or so colleges, one of them being a big art institute, so I am familiar with that ruse. That's not to entirely generalize: some of my best friends have blah blah blah qualifying my judgemental statement blah blah blah. But you don't seem overtly obnoxious like many of those people, Jennifer, so not all horn-rim wearers can be bad.

I will reiterate, though, that I think they look really cool. They are a fashion-snob statment, but it doesn't matter: they still look good, and that's all that matters for the most part. But when you're constantly surrounded with affected indie rock hipsters, though, in the end I usually prefer to look uninteresting, so that no one will notice me for my looks. That, and it basically goes back to the fact that I don't have the confidence to wear them without feeling self-conscious.

[David]

Smacky,

If you like the glasses, get the glasses, or else the terrorists have won.

[John V.]

So Screech Powers is a nerd, not a geek then.

Screech is neither. He is most definitely a dork.

[smacky]

David, lol! First Jennifer and now you. Jeez, now I feel like the world will fall off its orbit if I don't get these glasses. Am I in a Seinfeld episode, or am I still asleep and dreaming?

[Jennifer]

Smacky-
Oh. College kids in my area mostly affect the hippie look, and there are no art institutes that I know of, so hornrims are pretty rare. I also suppose I'm lucky in that my prescription is still pretty weak; I don't need glasses to read or write, I just need them if I want things more than ten feet away to be in focus.

When I was teaching, I still dyed my hair black and it fell past my waist, so on the first day of school I'd put all my hair up into an ENORMOUS pile on top of my head, and wear my cateyes, and thoroughly terrorize the students.

Unlike you, I'm vain enough to enjoy being noticed for my looks, especially considering I'm at the age where I can expect said looks to vanish any day now. Just today, in fact, one of my colleagues expressed amazement that I am thirty-four; I said "Yes, I look good, but my yearbook photo gets uglier every day." (I love working in a place where people 'get' Dorian Gray references.)

Which goes back to the benefits of being a geek; one reason I still get carded to buy cigarettes is that back in high school, when the cool kids were out having beach parties and absorbing skin-damaging UV rays, my tanless self was in the library reading science fiction books.

[Jennifer]

Smacky--
Also, if you get hornrims you can write them off as a business expense once we launch our "Libertarian girls gone wild" enterprise.

[thoreau]

Am I in a Seinfeld episode, or am I still asleep and dreaming?

Ms. Smacky, I'm sorry to report that your glasses were lost in the mail. Apparently the shipping label had some sort of cheap glue that caused it to fall off.

Fortunately, my black market shower head arrived without any problems.

[thoreau]

Anybody want some soup?

[smacky]

Jennifer,

Yeah, horn-rims are kind of trendoid around these parts. Or at least around the art world in these parts.
By the way, thanks for offering to absorb the expense with our slush fund. ^_^ I hope to retire on that fund someday.

[smacky]

Actually, I could go for a big salad right now.

[Jennifer]

Smacky-
Where do you live, that hornrims are so commonplace? I want to make sure I never go there.

[David]

Or at least around the art world in these parts. I thought you said you lived in OH.

[smacky]

Jennifer,

Stay far away from Case Western Reserve University and the Cleveland Institute of Art. Those are horn-rim hotspots. And University Circle area in general. Lakewood would probably be good for you to avoid, too.

[thoreau]

Smacky-

How about a cinnamon bobka? Or maybe a marble rye?

[Jennifer]

Smacky--
Move to New England! As a hornrim-wearing geeky science girl, you'll attain instant goddess status. And I can hook you up with some of Jeff's single friends.

[kevrob]

smacky lives in Drewcareyville, so the hornrims make a certain sense.

Kevin

[smacky]

Jennifer,

Okay! Hook it up! You don't by any chance live in New Hampshire, do you? Being a part of the Free State Project would just be icing on the cake.

David,

Despite Cleveland being mostly lame, we do have a pretty big art scene for a small big city. (was that an oxymoron?)

thoreau,

I prefer chocolate bobka.

[smacky]

What I wanna know is why when the thread is about nerds, all of a sudden I'm a topic of conversation.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

I don't see a Friday Fun Link posted yet, so here is one:

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/index2.shtml

click on the singing bald guy video on the right hand side.

Before you do, I suggest you smoke it if you got it.

[wellfellow]

Smacky, you live around the Cleveland Institute of Art? How neat, I'm an alumnus without the glasses!

[thoreau]

Smacky-

I don't have any chocolate bobka, but I have a bunch of Oh Henry candy bars. Some woman dented my bumper in a parking lot and paid me off with candy bars. Apparently she's an heiress or something. I don't recall her name, but her breasts were hanging out and she was married to some Indian guy.

[Stevo Darkly]

smacky, get the glasses you want.

I'm sure they'll be .... spectacular!

[Mo]

And I can hook you up with some of Jeff's single friends.

Jennifer,
I think you may anger some of the Reasonites. It's bad enough you're off the market, but if you take smacky off, the statists have won!

smacky,
The way to decide the glasses is to post a photo of one with and without and then have everyone bid a dollar on the preferred picture. The free market will decide what you should wear! Besides, that'll pay for the glasses too.

[David]

What I wanna know is why when the thread is about nerds, all of a sudden I'm a topic of conversation.

Smacky,

Do you think that there is anyone who post in libertarian message thread who isn't somewhat nerdy?

Oh, and if you do get the hornrims, get the Botticelli shoes.

[smacky]

Why are MT SHOES a topic of conversation!!?! 🙂

wellfellow, what year did you graduate?

thoreau, i don't think i saw that episode...i like Seinfeld, but I can only trade so many lines from so many episodes, and then I can no longer hold up my end of the witty quoting. (Sorry!)

Mo,

If I didn't have a sick fascination with my complete anonymity, I would do that in a second! It would be like a highschool civics-type lesson in the free market! Plus I'd get free glasses then. (Or maybe $20 off, considering that there aren't that many H&R regulars)...

[smacky]

sorry, I should be yelling MY SHOES , not MT SHOES .

[David]

Thoreau,

That's outrageous, egregious, preposterous! She flouting society's conventions!

[Stevo Darkly]

smacky,
The way to decide the glasses is to post a photo of one with and without and then have everyone bid a dollar on the preferred picture. The free market will decide what you should wear! Besides, that'll pay for the glasses too.

That is such a great idea, Mo!

We could also do something similar when smacky can't decide whether to buy black or white lingerie.

[wellfellow]

"We could also do something similar when smacky can't decide whether to buy black or white lingerie."

Wow, what an idea!

[Steven Crane]

Dag, yo, I enjoy being me. I've got the horn-rimmed glasses and the geek credibility, but I was also a captain of the track team!

...and a kicker on the football team.

[Jennifer]

Begone, Steven. You healthy, well-rounded, balanced-personality types aren't welcome 'round here.

[Steven Crane]

Who said I was well-rounded and balanced-personality? 😛 I was also curmudgeonly, underachieving, and gin-addled. But boy was I captain chemistry.

[David]

Since when are kickers well-rounded?

[free form]

I'm voting on the hornrims, too, smacky. I don't wear glasses, and I am the plainest, black-uniform-every-day-comfortable-shoes nice girl you'd ever care to meet, but I have been collecting the glam '50s sunglasses and wearing them for about 25 years. And I live in Ohio, too. You have my support!

And yeah, ebay is a great resource, though it was nice to get them for a quarter at the Goodwill back in 1980.

[dhex]

what are you talking about? he was a kicker! that's almost as bad as drama club!

[free form]

And, just so I stay on topic, I will also agree that nerds are better lovers. Having been through a few, I'm finding the medieval/fantasy world geeky nerd that is my beloved, to be an absolute joy and an excellent partner in every way!

[Jennifer]

See? I'm such a geek I don't even know that football-kickers are geeks, too! Back in high school, anybody with an athletic connection--even the towel boy--was way higher than me on the social totem pole.

(Although I just remembered, I actually got a varsity letter for managing the cross-country team. So I COULD say I was a lettered athlete, but I'd rather die.)

[wellfellow]

OK, just to clarify, if you're a true nerd you cannot be a lover of any sort. If you're someone's lover, you aren't a nerd!

[Jennifer]

We know, wellfellow. We're not nerds--we're geeks.

[Steven Crane]

I would have been a running back, but having blazing speed doesn't make up for being under 150 pounds.

[Jennifer]

Steven-
Socially, your high-school self was way above me, who lettered in Managing a Team before becoming a Goth the following year.

[Steven Crane]

Jennifer, I was the kind of HS student you would have alternately hated and adored. I never did any homework, usually tuned out the teacher, and was failing miserably at the halfway mark of the semester, and then I'd pull it all together, write a few spectacular papers (but turn them in a day late) and get a good solid B (hopefully). In between all the underachieving, though, I made it to being a National Merit Scholar.

[smacky]

Jennifer,

I, too, have a wide, square Slavic jaw. Ok, here's me without horn-rims.

Here's me with horn-rims:

| | | | | |
|C O-O
| _ /
|

Note how the horn-rims accentuate my cheekbones and slim down my big, Slavic jaw line.

[David]

smacky,

You have a spiky mullet?

[smacky]

Rock n' Roll, baby! Freedom of Expression!

Hey, I'm no keyboard artist, ok? Besides, mullets are nothing but class.

[Jennifer]

Smacky-
I highly, highly doubt you're as bad as all that. From what I've read on various posts, I thnk you have a tendency to sell yourself short just a little too much.

I actually like my Slavic jaw, which balances out my high forehead. My only real complaint about my appearance involves my hair; I HAVE to wear it extra-long, because when it's long it's nice and wavy/curly, but cut short it is nothing but a mass of cowlicks. When I was young and my mom made me wear my hair short, I had this one lock of hair I nicknamed "the Alfalfa sprout," because it stuck straight up from the middle of my head, just like Alfalfa on the Little Rascals.

[Jennifer]

By the way, Smacky, if you remember that thread where I posted the "nude photo" of myself, you'll notice that before each "X" I had a series of periods as place-holders. For some reason, this message board won't let you put empty spaces at the beginning of a line, which is why your hornrim photo came out wrong.

[smacky]

Jennifer,

What I wouldn't give for a head covered in cowlicks. I guess I'll have to settle for a spikey mullet...(no, I do not have a spikey mullet...in fact, it's a rather refined, subdued mullet -- much more appropros for any genteel, mild-mannered professional. Especially after I slick it with elbow grease. Klass-eee! ).

But seriously, thanks for the tip about the message board. I'll keep it in mind next time I hijack a thread and post nude pictures of myself.

[Stevo Darkly]

BTW:

1) Best ... H&R headline ... ever.

2) I wish I was the kind of computer-savvy nerd who could figure out why every attempt to go to the linked article makes my browser crash.

[smacky]

If you are all still reeling from the thought of a femullet, let me reassure you that I do not really have a mullet. Hope that stops your stomachs from churning. I know I for one feel better now.

Once my boyfriend-at-the-time and I saw this woman with a blonde spiky femullet walking around in public wearing an airbrushed t-shirt that said, "I'm no angel"....my then-boyfriend quipped, "You sure aren't".

Best. retort. ever.

[Akira MacKenzie]

I've been waiting to respond to this thread all day.

This article is utter and complete nonsense! Where? Oh where is this fantasy land where beautiful and hip young women are willing to screw Star Trek afficiandos and computer science majors? In my experience, women only care about 2 things: money and looks. I'm a geek; hell, I'm one of the geekiest geeks who ever got the ending of 2001. However, I'm also poor and butt ugly. However, money and looks don't really matter, right?

Hark! Do I hear the sexy young ladies busting down my door? Hell no! I haven't had a date in 8 years, and I can't get a woman to look at me, much acknowledge my existance. I don't believe this article for a nanosecond. When an attractive young woman agrees to give me the time of day, then I'll take this seriously.

"a nerd is an excellent provider and a guy who puts you first."

AHHHHH! The truth comes out. Since said geek has more earning potential than the average studly stud, the modern women will bite her tounge and bring herself to marry the geek. However, the well-to-do geek shouldn't be too surprised if the hot new wife gets cold to his affections real fast and find her jumping onto the muscular pool boy's diving board behind his back.

[Jennifer]

Smacky, believe me when I tell you that you do NOT want a headful of cowlicks that stick out at angles in complete defiance of the laws of Euclidian geometry.

[Franklin Harris]

Is it too late to join Jennifer's stalker fan club?

[Franklin Harris]

Dammit. "Stalker" was supposed to have a strikethrough mark. This stupid thing says I'm supposed to be able to use HTML tags, but that seems only to mean bold and italics. Obviously, this comment system is not geeky enough.

[Jason Sonenshein]

All of this talk about whether someone is a geek or a nerd reminds me of this

...I actually got a varsity letter for managing the cross-country team.

Yeah well, I got a varsity letter for being on the academic quiz team. How's that for geek cred?

[Yogi]

Dag, yo, I enjoy being me. I've got the horn-rimmed glasses and the geek credibility, but I was also a captain of the track team!

...and a kicker on the football team.

Where does being captain of the Math Team and the varsity hockey goalie put me?

[David]

Where does being captain of the Math Team and the varsity hockey goalie put me?

Mixed cred. I was in honors classes, captain of the wrestling team, VP of the Art Club, star wars geek, comic geek, sports geek, and trivia geek.

This might be the longest thread ever with no ad hominem attacks or other nasty spats.

[Yogi]

This might be the longest thread ever with no ad hominem attacks or other nasty spats.

Probably because none of us are cool enough to come up with any good insults.

[Mo]

What kind of attacks are we going to hurl at each other? Nerd? Geek? The likely response will be, "Indeed I am and that you post here indicates that you are one too."

[Jennifer]

Mo-
My favorite is "only losers post on the Internet," especially considering that it's a Friday night. I just sent an e-mail to my boyfriend, who is literally in the next room. Sad. I once even left him a note on this very comment board.

If any of us ever do so well in our respective fields that we actually become famous, these Hit and Run threads are going to embarrass the hell out of us, especially the ones we wrote whilst intoxicated on our drugs of choice.

Y'know, Akira, I feel your pain in a non-Clintonian way, but have you considered the possibility that you're giving off bad vibes? My boyfriend is not only a Star Wars geek but a Babylon 5 geek and a Battlestar Galactica geek (and he even infected me, the bastard), and while not a computer science major he DOES work in broadcasting. Meanwhile, I managed to pay my way through college and grad school by charging men ludicrous amounts of money just to look at and talk to me, which would suggest that I'm somewhat less than ugly and boring.

As for money, when I met him I made far more than he did, then for a few years I made far less than he did, and now we're about even, income-wise. So we're not all looking for wallets, either.

But I will admit that these days, a girl geek has a much better time of it than a guy geek. It's one thing for me to hang out with fans of sci-fi and politics and weird philosophical shit; it's another thing for you to hang out with Fabio fans, or whatever the hell it is that normal women are. I wouldn't know.

[Randolph Carter]

Want some messed-up social dynamics? I was a huge geek at my school (liked Tolkien, learned Quenya, knew part of the John Galt speech by heart...) but was simultaneously an all-state football player and wrestler. BUT - rowing, of all things, was the big sport at my school, so all the jocks were rowers. We had the geekiest offensive line ever - all our audibles were philosophers' names. It's great... when colleges looked at my resume they thought, "great athlete, what a jock, let's let him in!" haha, tricked them.

[Jennifer]

Franklin-
My boyfriend probably has a "Join here to stalk my girlfriend" link on his website. Just go back to the first post on this thread.

[Steven Crane]

wait. boyfriend?

Jennifer, you had a boyfriend all this time and didn't tell us?

You've been leading us on, woman!

/me hits on smacky instead

[crimethink]

Steven,

Jennifer's mentioned her boyfriend a lot. You must not be reading the right threads.

It's funny, in real life too, virtually every woman I meet mentions her boyfriend in the first couple of sentences. They must all be trying to make me jealous.... 😉

[David]

Back to the original topic, is anyone really surprised that guys who don't usually have women falling all over them turn out to be more stable partners? The guy who all the girls swoon over never has to develop the personality traits to keep them interested. To this day, the guys I know who gets lots of women are selfish idiots when it come to that part of their lives. Almost all their intersocial skill is directed at having sex and moving on.

Mo,

It's just that threads where people can't rip each other's beliefs seem to only last a few posts. And with good reason, they're dull.

[David]

It's funny, in real life too, virtually every woman I meet mentions her boyfriend in the first couple of sentences. They must all be trying to make me jealous.... 😉

You don't happen hear about the boyfriends after saying things like " Horse manure's not that bad. I don't even mind the word manure. You know, it's, it's nure, which is good. and a ma in front of it. MA-NURE. When you consider the other choices, manure is actually pretty refreshing. "

[Franklin Harris]

"My boyfriend probably has a "Join here to stalk my girlfriend" link on his website. Just go back to the first post on this thread."

Lessee... references to Gerry Anderson sci-fi series (I'm partial to "Space: 1999," myself), Daleks, giant Japanese monsters... hmmm, no stalking info.

[Franklin Harris]

"You don't happen hear about the boyfriends after saying things like " Horse manure's not that bad. I don't even mind the word manure. You know, it's, it's nure, which is good. and a ma in front of it. MA-NURE. When you consider the other choices, manure is actually pretty refreshing. "

I find that my best pick-up line is, "Hello, my name is Franklin. I'm unemplyed and I live with my parents. Want to go out?"

[Randolph Carter]

Yo-yo ma.

Trustworthy H&R Poster: "What do I mean?.. Well perhaps he thinks that you're working him for the discount. Shaking that little butt of yours into big, big savings.... And then when you get it, you know, you drop him like a hot potato.

Jennifer: "Aawwh Please....."

Trustworthy H&R Poster: "Now see the two of you need to work on trust... and then and only then will there be a free exchange of sex and discounts... Cornerstones of a healthy relationship....and now if you would (taps twice on the door) excuse us. We need to get to bed."

[kevrob]

I was a debate/forensics nerd. I'm talking win-the-Junior-Varsity-State-Championship-NFL-Double-Ruby-Pin full-out geekery. Too uncool to make student council, even, and while one of my brothers got The Athletic Genes from my Dad, I sure didn't. At the end of my Junior year the Nuns announced that their order was going to go broke paying for the sisters' retirements, and they had to sell our school. Our class would be the last to graduate, the school would have no freshman to torture, and a swarm of Sophs and Juniors transferred out. Some Juniors doubled up on some classes and/or went to Summer School and graduated a year early.

The budget for debate travel was severely restricted. I did get to go to New Orleans for the CFL nationals, but we went to far fewer invitationals than we did in earlier years.

What this meant was that, social travesty that I was, I was cajoled into trying out for the school plays, which would have been desperately in need of some approximation of talent had not the Drama Nun importuned every plausible candidate to take a whack at auditioning. I wound up playing the villain in our fall comedy, and got a supporting role in the Spring Musical. As an ex-choir boy, I knew how to sing, but pretty much had laid off it since my voice has gone Peter Brady on me. Among those who the debaters had usually dismissed as "dramatics defectives", I found an entirely different type of geekery. I also found party invitations, and non-nerdy girls who would talk to me. I even took one to Prom, which surprised the hell out of me.

Imagine my shock when, during an awards assembly, the Drama Nun called me up to the stage to receive a letter for Drama! I knew you could earn one for that, but I already had a letter (and 3 chevrons!) for debate. I had gotten out of the habit of wearing my letter sweater at school, so Sister figured I needed one. Damned nice of her.

Now if I could just figure out a way to turn my inner geek into $!

Kevin

[thoreau]

If any of us ever do so well in our respective fields that we actually become famous, these Hit and Run threads are going to embarrass the hell out of us, especially the ones we wrote whilst intoxicated on our drugs of choice.

Why do you think I refuse to post my real name and email on here? Sure, I've given away enough details that those who want to can ID me, but it would be much harder for those who want to find dirt on me to find out about my H&R posts.

This is my second favorite thread ever. My first favorite was, of course, the very nice thread that Tim devoted to my Ph.D. last week. (Thanks again, Tim!) This is my second favorite. We're all having fun with silly discussions, and nobody's insulting anybody else.

[thoreau]

kevrob-

Aren't you in Milwaukee? Did you go to high school there? If so, which high school did you go to? I graduated from West Allis Central, and I spent 2 years on the debate team.

It would be funny if it turns out that we're the same age and we debated each other.

[kevrob]

Sorry, thoreau. I grew up and went to H.S. on the South Shore of Lawn Island, NY. So, no, I never got to debate any Bulldogs. I did get my head handed to me by Marquette High at Nationals at the end of Junior year, though.

Kevin
(Cheesehead by Choice, I guess.)

[thoreau]

grrr...Marquette. I hate Marquette. I lost to them too. I hated them so much that I made dumb mistakes.

[smacky]

Yeah well, I got a varsity letter for being on the academic quiz team. How's that for geek cred?

I got one for being on the academic team, too. I even gold medaled in my Interview section! The only other varsity letter I got was for Mock Trial. Yeah, you heard me. Stop laughing.

If any of us ever do so well in our respective fields that we actually become famous, these Hit and Run threads are going to embarrass the hell out of us, especially the ones we wrote whilst intoxicated on our drugs of choice.

What's possibly worse, is that I am almost invariably sober when I am posting on H&R. For all the dumb crap I have put on here over the past few months, let me apologize. And to those of you who appreciate it, rest assured, there's more where that came from.

[Tick Tock Man]

So what are the limits of geek/nerd girls? Does the girl from Dresden Dolls count as a nerd girl? I know she wears face paint, but I don't think she's goth... I think... How about Mary Timony? She likes goblins and dragons and stuff, as evident in her lyrics, but is she a geek or some sort of indie rock goddess? Same question for Shirley Manson of Garbage...

[smacky]

Wait, I got one for Latin Club, too. Uh, I guess I'm just digging myself a deeper hole here. I really wasn't as lame as I sound at the present moment. Really!

[kevrob]

I never joined Latin Club, but I did take third place in the county Latin contest after first year, and then took first after second year. Then, in a doomed attempt to escape nerdidity entire, I dropped Latin and took up Spanish. THE hottest chick in our year was in my Latin class, but she was dating the quarterback of the freshman, later JV football team, and was hopelessly out of nerd-reach by about Day 4 of our first semester. She once told me that she admired my mind. Sheesh, why not just cut `em off, bronze them, and hang them from the rear-view mirror of the boyfriend's Camaro? clack-clack!

Kevin

[asd]

I think that in my experience nerd women make better lovers. I've only had one nerd lover and one non-nerd, so the sample is too small. Way, way too small a sample. Anyways, the nonnerd was, I think, quite selfish. She was so impressed to have found someone who is actually willing to perform oral sex on a woman that we didn't do much else. The nerd was much more adventurous in terms of positions, variety of stimulation and more willing to have sex at any time. I felt that she was actually concerned about my pleasure, which was definitely not true of the nonnerd.

[kwais]

Now,
all y'all are talking about nerds and geeks as one of the high school clicks. I didn't go to high school, I got a GED. I studied at home and took the test in a few hours. The test didn't last long enough for us taking the test to form clicks.

So I don't really know where I would fit in. In elementary school, I was the small kid that got into a fight with every one. (I was called into the principle's office where I was informed that there was not a boy in my class whom hadn't recieved a bloody nose from me, but it was the end of the year).

[kwais]

Jen & Agent Smacky,
I am sure that glasses to add to the drop dead stunning appearance of the two of you, but you should both consider, seriously getting laser eye surgury.

As much as I hate to admit that I had the surgery done, because it is an admission that I was not created the genetically perfect human. I do admit it so that I can recommend it to others. You won't realize how awesome it is to not depend on glasses again.

Smacky
specially you. You say that your glasses are thick? Be done with glasses.

I have 20/15 vision now. I went through sniper school a week after the operation, with no problems.

Also, if either of you really need to wear the glasses to fill someones nerd fantasy of yours, or if the glasses help you turn heads and give you self conficence, you can always get clear lenses, or the ones that turn into sunglasses in the sunlight.

[kwais]

David,
"To this day, the guys I know who gets lots of women are selfish idiots when it come to that part of their lives"

Are they selfish idiots because they get women, or do they get women because they are selfish idiots?

People don't always want what makes sense, or what they think that they want.

[crimethink]

thoreau,

You haven't responded to my post about women talking about their boyfriends, you ignorant asshole. So I'm assuming you concede my argument and you all can just shut up about everything else.

(Just trying to make us all feel at home...)

[Jennifer]

Kwais-
I'm far too squeamish to consider laser surgery; I won't even do contacts, although my eye doctor told me that for some reason having to do with the shape of my eyes I'd be a perfect candidate. Besides, the only thing I absolutely need my glasses for is driving at night, and it would seem extravagant to spend thousands of dollars on surgery just so I could drive after sunset without plastic frames on the bridge of my nose.

[kwais]

Jen,
I am everybit as squeamish as you. I am sure the eye doctor thought that I was a complete wuss. But it was over in 15 minutes at most, and they gave me some drugs that made it that I wasn't even of the ride home.

It cost me what I made in a month back then, and it is the best money I ever spent.

Anyways, I'll stop selling it now. I take it from your postings that you are slightly older than me, and if your vision is otherwise pretty good, you don't need to worry about it. My big thing was that my sight was deteriorating with glasses or contacts. With surgery I got perfect vision, and the deterioration ceased.

Eye surgery is big if you are needing to get thicker and thicker glasses.

[David]

Are they selfish idiots because they get women, or do they get women because they are selfish idiots?

Women don't think that they selfish idiots beforehand, so I guess it's the former. These guys just don't know how not to pick-up a different girl the next night instead of having a relationship. I can't explain the phenomenon where women are attracted to guys who are obvious jerks.

[Jennifer]

Kwais-
I see. I've had the same prescription for nearly a decade now, so I'm not too concerned. If it looked like I'd have Coke-rim glasses in my near future, I'm sure I'd view laser surgery in a different light.

[Franklin Harris]

Does the girl from Dresden Dolls count as a nerd girl?

I suppose. Most mostly she's Goth.

[Jesse Walker]

This is my second favorite thread ever.

If this were a really good thread, one of you would have picked up my bait & started debating Daphne vs. Velma.

Maybe you all aren't as stoned as you claim to be.

[Jason Sonenshein]

I got one for being on the academic team, too.

Smacky, did you go to high school in Ohio? I wonder if we played against any common opponents. I went to Milford High School (You might have heard of it.) in the late 1980's and early 1990's. I was also on the quiz team at Bowling Green State University.

[kevrob]

Daphne vs. Velma?

I was never much of a Scooby fan, so that doesn't trip my trigger. The classic answer is the same as for the Gilligan's Island Dilemma:

Marry Mary Anne after fooling around with Ginger. Canoodle with Daphne, but get serious with Velma. Let Veronica use you and toss you away, marry Betty. If you are lucky, Cheryl Blossom will be "rebound girl". Have a fling with Melody, marry Josie. (Don't mess around with Valerie - she doesn't take any crap from guys.)

etc.

Those so inclined can report on the Dr. Quest/Race Banner choice.

Kevin

[kevrob]

Oops! Make that Race Bannon. I don't think Benton ever messed around with gamma rays.

Kevin

[Jadagul]

I lucked out in high school. I'm not athletic at all; I did, however, letter in debate, choir, quiz bowl, and two different math clubs.

Thing is, where I went to high school, all the athletes really respected me for all that, and I was pretty close to the top of the social hierarchy. Because I got good grades, and good test scores, and did well at debate (well, actually, I sucked at debate, but they didn't know that and we didn't tell them).

Feel free to throw things.

[kwais]

David,
My initial thought as a response to your 'selfish men being lucky with women' post was going to be a joke, something like 'I'm selfish, and it isn't because I am lucky with women.

But I thought about it, and I am selfish. And I am pretty lucky with women, when there are women around. Lucky in the sense that I can usually find someone to sleep with, but not lucky to find someone to share my life with and have kids.

But I think that everyone is selfish. If you think that you are not selfish, I don't think you understand the whole equation. If you are in love with someone and you don't think they are selfish, then you don't understand the whole equation.

Love is mostly an illusion, in that we percieve it to be a connection to another person, and in reality it is about validating our own self worth via the other person.

Anyways, perhaps I shouldn't write about that stuff on a political website while feeling melancholical about the end of an impossible relationship 10,000 miles away.

The moral of the story is that everyone is selfish.

[thoreau]

thoreau,

You haven't responded to my post about women talking about their boyfriends, you ignorant asshole. So I'm assuming you concede my argument and you all can just shut up about everything else.

(Just trying to make us all feel at home...)

Comment by: crimethink at June 11, 2005 07:20 AM

*Chuckle* Your pathetic attempt at humor shows just how stupid you really are, you fucking theocrat!

Anyway, you still haven't answered my question from the other day, so I see no need to reply to you!

And I shall make a few more consecutive posts to amplify on that point!

(Don't worry guys, crimethink and I are just having fun here 🙂

[thoreau]

Anyway, it's been well established on other threads that crimethink hates freedom.

[thoreau]

I fart in crimethink's general direction! His mother was a hamster and his father
smelt of elderberries!

[SixSigma]

Thoreau -

As a semi-regular, I missed the PhD post.

Congrats & as one who has undergone dozens of CT scans for reasons unmentioned here, good luck on the research.

[Akira MacKenzie]

In high school, I was member of the Astronomy Club, sang baratone in the Concert Choir, and did four straight years of forensics (first two years Prose, then Oratory). Of course, all this made me a punching bag for those higher up on the teenage jungle pecking order. Needless to say the females didn't talk to me except to tell me to get away from them or they'll get their boyfriends to beat me up.

Moving right along...

Jennifer, I'm not sure what you mean by "bad vibes." I shower daily, brush my teeth, use deorderant, and dress OK for someone who has little fashion sense. Although I had a mediocre showing in college, I was able to squeek by and get a BA. Although I do rant and rave on H&R (it is a great place to vent), I like to think I'm a polite person.

I'm ugly. 'Nuff said. I'm at least 20 pounds overweight. I have huge ears, combination skin, a fat face with no chin, and a flat pock-marked nose that is smooshed across my face. No woman wants to touch me, much less look at me. Are these the "bad vibes" you speak of?

[CAT_Violations]

These guys just don't know how not to pick-up a different girl the next night instead of having a relationship. I can't explain the phenomenon where women are attracted to guys who are obvious jerks.

David-

Not so fast there. If there is an agreement to exclusivity and the guy actually picks up a girl that's bad behavior.

But if there is no agreement to exclusivity and someone gets a phone number that is basically fair. If you don't know this already, I'll mention it - most women have back-up guys. Many have a lot. Exes. Guys they've been "friends" or friends with for years. Guys they work with. Guys their friends are trying to hook them up with. Etc, etc, etc. Many, probably most, women would not have a problem going out with and in some cases hooking up with one of these or meeting a new one if there is no agreement to exclusivity in place yet.

That's basically how things are - if there is no agreement to exclusivity you pretty much need to assume they are seeing or talking to other people. Otherwise you are setting yourself up for some major disappointment.

[Sir Jasper]

I'm-Never-Going-Back-To-My-Old-School dept: I was a nerd (the equivalent of "untouchable" under the Indian caste system) in high school. Of course, you must understand that at my alma mater, a nerd was anyone not a starter on the varsity football team. Social Darwinism, ya gotta love it...

[Jennifer]

Akira-
I don't mean 'bad vibes' in that you smell bad or anything; I meant that maybe when you DO talk to women a lot of negativity comes through. I remember once, years ago, I went on a date with a guy who seemed very cool, until you talked to him for more than five minutes. Then, it was all stuff like "You're so much cooler than my last girlfriend, Jennifer. Christ, what a bitch she was." Or maybe what you're doing is more subtle than that: "Hi there. I have tickets to a really cool show, but you--you wouldn't want to go see it with an ugly dork like me, would you?"

Serious advice: next time you meet a woman you think might be interesting, don't talk to her the way you'd talk to a potential date; just talk to her the way you'd talk to a potential friend with whom you'd have a lot in common. Try to connect with her on an INTELLECTUAL level before you try anything else. And then see what happens after awhile, when she's grown to like having you around as a companion.

Thoreau-
Do you know a woman by the name of Dijonna Figueroa (or something like that)? I ask because yesterday my boyfriend and I went to see the IMAX film "Aliens of the Deep," about the creatures living around mid-ocean vents, and much of it was narrated by her, who in 2003 was a PhD student in marine biology at UC Santa Barbara.

And to fully cement my geek credentials, let me say that seeing an IMAX science documentary wasn't all we did yesterday; we also played a rousing game of mini-golf, went to a culinary museum with an exhibit on the history of American diners, ate too much barbecue and spent the rest of the evening belching our way through the "WaterFire" show in downtown Providence. On the way home we listened to a CD of Goth and Progressive rock songs. It was geek nirvana.

[thoreau]

Sorry, Jennifer, I don't know her. It's a big school.

[Serafina]

I am dating a mathematician, who, on an afternoon at a Japanese garden, bumped into a shrub and and then stopped to shake it a few times and comment on the apparently odd periodicity of the waves his shaking produced. He's beautifully nerdy. He even unabashedly wears speedos on the beach.

Akira, Jennifer's giving good advice.

[Jennifer]

It's funny, in real life too, virtually every woman I meet mentions her boyfriend in the first couple of sentences. They must all be trying to make me jealous....

It's not that, Crimethink; it's that a lot of us, especially when we were hated in high school, still harbor faint feelings of guilt whenever we have to turn down a man who was nice enough to show any interest in us, no matter how commonplace such situations may have become. To avoid having to do reject anybody, when we're not out looking (or just not interested) we mention our boyfriends as soon as we can, even back in the days when said boyfriend didn't actually exist.

[kwais]

"and comment on the apparently odd periodicity of the waves his shaking produced. He's beautifully nerdy"

Using fingers and toes to add 7 & 6 doesn't do it for you?

[kevrob]

I used to have a crush on a beautiful nursing student who lived next door to me. One of my roommates was dating one of her roommates, and I would frequently be pressed into service as a stopgap escort when the whole group wanted to go bar hopping, or to the movies. Girl Next Door had a boyfriend who played professional soccer up in Canada, and only got to talk to him on the phone sporadically. Eventually he got traded to a team only 100 miles away, but he was still only rarely able to visit. GND could get pretty fed up with her long distance romance at times, and my shoulder was always pretty absorbent. Just my luck, I didn't find out that she had dumped futbol-boy, or been cut loose by him, until she introduced me to her new boyfriend, a chemistry grad student at her school that she eventually went on to marry. He was a decent guy, too. I was happy for them. My point is, I always knew that, while I wasn't a fifth wheel I was certainly a spare tire, and though I liked to joke, when teased by my buddies who knew what was going on, that GND had stopped just one boyfriend short of giving me my shot, I always knew that, in the immortal words of Joey Tribbiani, "never gonna happen!"

Not to paint myself as a long-suffering saint here. During that period of time I knew this girl I dated other women, one pretty seriously. I'd be lying if I said didn't have her pegged as Future Girlfriend for when my then-current squeeze eventually got tired of me. But I never had the "Sam Smooth" moves necessary to switch sweeties easily like some guys.

Kevin

[crimethink]

Jennifer,

To avoid having to do reject anybody, when we're not out looking (or just not interested) we mention our boyfriends as soon as we can

You don't understand, this is ME we're talking about. So they must be trying to make me jealous.

😉

[Akira MacKenzie]

To avoid having to do reject anybody, when we're not out looking (or just not interested) we mention our boyfriends as soon as we can, even back in the days when said boyfriend didn't actually exist.

Personally, I would prefer that women didn't have to lie to us. Just come out and tell us that we're fat, ugly, geeks and not the mesomorphic adonis with 6-pack abs and 12-inch cock that they'd rather date. At least we'll know where we stand.

[Serafina]

Oh, please! A pre-emptive rejection of the I'm-not-looking variety lets people save face and continue what could be a pleasant conversation. It says, Don't ask me out because I'm not interested in that. Attitude matters a lot more than looks.

[Jennifer]

Akira-
Your last post confirms my theory that your problem is most likely the negative vibes you admit. Back when I was on the market, the only time I ever came out and said "I'm just not interested in you" is if the guy was being a total asshole and deserved to be let down a peg. Serafina is right. It almost sounds, Akira, like you WANT everybody to come out and say "I won't date you because I'm too shallow to settle for less than perfection" so you can continue to tell yourself that the reason you can't date is because EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US FEMALES is a shallow gold-digger that is only interested in either intoxicating eye candy or a filthy-rich meal ticket.

If your theory is true, then historically, only the top five percent of all men have ever succeeded in getting laid and the rest died lonely and embittered virgins.

Also there's not an either-or dichotomy here, where EITHER a woman wants to go out with you OR she's shallow. If a woman isn't currently interested in dating you, why can't you at least take advantage of the opportunity to just make a friend? And who knows, if that friendship doesn't blossom into something else, maybe one of HER friends will find you interesting.

[Akira MacKenzie]

It almost sounds, Akira, like you WANT everybody to come out and say "I won't date you because I'm too shallow to settle for less than perfection" so you can continue to tell yourself that the reason you can't date is because EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US FEMALES is a shallow gold-digger that is only interested in either intoxicating eye candy or a filthy-rich meal ticket.

I don't need people to tell me that I'm ugly, Jenifer. I can look in the mirror and see that. I've had plenty of people from middle school to college and my family to tell me how unattravtive I am.

I never asked a woman out because I know that rejection is a foregone conclusion. The only woman I ever dated asked me out first. When she decided that she couldn't stand me, I got the message: I wasn't good enough for anyone.

If a woman isn't currently interested in datin you, why can't you at least take advantage of the opportunity to just make a friend?

Oh, I've got enough female friends right now. Thanks. Unfortunetly, I want a little more than that. However, I'm never going to get it.

[Jennifer]

Akira-
This former girlfriend of yours must be formidable indeed, for you to assume that her opinion does in turn reflect the opinions of every other individual member of femalekind. But if you have predetermined that you are going to spend your life lonely and miserable, there is nobody and nothing else on Earth that can make you otherwise.

[smacky]

I can't explain the phenomenon where women are attracted to guys who are obvious jerks.

David,

Neither can I, and I'm a woman who always succumbs to jerks. I think, from my point of view, it is just that I am not good at picking up on the subtleties of other people's personalities -- thereby making me a poor judge when selecting a guy, even though I really, truly try my best to avoid jerks. It just seems to me that there are too many. I can't escape them. The only nice thing about this I guess is that I am becoming so numb to being severely let down by people, to the point that it no longer makes a difference to me either way.....

Akira,

If you really care about your looks, there are many things that can be done to improve them. It all depends on your priorities: If you feel you absolutely must meet someone or get a date, if it's neccessary to shed a little extra weight or get your ears pinned or something, well, if you think it's worth it to you, then do it (but only if you won't be bitter or resentful about it later). As for me, I don't personally care if guys look past me anymore. I am willing (and happy) to go without some super-shallow boyfriend who is internally monitoring my weight gain, if means that I can still eat chocolate on a regular basis without being obese but not "America's Next Anorexic Top Model" shape. At this point, I would not trade my ice cream addiction for a guy who "only dates really hot girls". I am content to be me, and only when I am personally tired of my excess pounds will I work them off. I will not do it for anyone else other than myself. In exchange, I accept that I will not get as many phone numbers as I have when I was a few pounds lighter. In other words, find that balance that makes you happy. True, it might be harder if you have bad features, but you can work with those in other ways. Unhappy with your chin (or lack thereof)? Grow a beard.

Now, more importantly, Akira, I was going to say this to you: don't shortchange yourself on your looks. There are people out there who might find your looks appealing. I for one have dated some not-traditionally-attractive guys whom I thought were totally handsome. Self confidence is sexy. (Ironically coming from me, quite possibly the world's most self-depracating person).

And to echo Serafina: Jennifer is giving you good advice. Good luck!

[kwais]

Smacky,
I find I get more attention, and more dates under the same circumstances when I am out of shape than when when I am in shape.

Also, I don't know what you or Jennifer really look like, but, though you may be self depreciating, there is a definate underlying tone of "I am so hot, you guys inevitably all want me", from both of you.

My mental image of the both of you is of head turning beauty. But the attitude alone is attractive.

[smacky]

I find I get more attention, and more dates under the same circumstances when I am out of shape than when when I am in shape.

kwais,

That's because you're male. There is often an inverse effect of the results I was describing when applied to males. If men don't get more women when out of shape, at least many men certainly get more women than they should get based on their looks when compared to women with comparably poor looks. Also see: Jack Black, Donald Trump, Meatloaf, and various washed-up athletes, CEOs, mobsters, musicians and actors. I.e., more lenience regarding physical appearence is given to ugly or fat guys than is given to ugly or fat women. It's a double standard. Many women find pudgy or teddybear-like men attractive, but how many guys could actually appreciate that in a woman?

Also, I don't know what you or Jennifer really look like, but, though you may be self depreciating, there is a definate underlying tone of "I am so hot, you guys inevitably all want me", from both of you.

kwais, I'm not going to speak for Jennifer, since you're making such a personal remark about each of us, but where do you get that attitude from me? (I think you're completely wrong on that one, by the way). I, for one, don't recall myself bragging frequently about my goddess-like looks on Hit and Run. Overall, I think I've alluded to my appreciation for frozen dairy products more frequently than to my beautiful blonde locks. 🙂
Sorry if I offended you for making fun of mullets. (If you want to have one of those gender differences fights with me on H&R, though, maybe we should continue on some other thread some other time. I don't want to ruin this one for thoreau by getting into a battle-of-the-sexes argument. It would inevitably end with name calling and excessive stereotyping from both sides.)

- The scorned teddybear.

[CAT_Violations]

It would inevitably end with name calling and excessive stereotyping from both sides.

Like anytime a man rejects a woman he is "shallow", perhaps?

[kwais]

Scorned Teddybear 🙂 that one is pretty nice.

Incidentally, what is the name Smacky from (not a reference to erotic spanking, I assume).

And what is the mullets comment about? Have I led on that I was annoyed by any mullet comment? How would a battle of the sexes thread ruin anything for the evil Dr T.?

I don't think that the fat pudgy thing in men and in women is a double standard. It is just a different standard. Men judge women differently than women judge men. Though I think that there is a trend where women are starting to more to judge men, in the same manner as men judge women.

Men like women for attitude and looks. How much money she has, how succesful she is as an athlete or buisnesperson, how popular she is with her friends is irrelevant. The opposite is not true.

And they say that power is the ultimate aphrodisiac, but I think that it in women power is the opposite of attractive (unless you are into that kind of thing).

[Jadagul]

On why girls fall for jerks: I've heard something from several people (this is an amusing reference--at least the free stuff, I'm too cheap to pay) that seems to make sense: in general girls find self-confidence and self-possession very attractive (incidentally, this would also explain Akira's problem--if you're convinced no girl will be attracted to you, it's hard to have the confidence you'd need to get a girl attracted to you). The problem is that total assholes often appear at first to be self-confident, and in some ways they are. They give off an aura of "I'm better than you, so I don't need you, but I'll do you the favor of allowing you to associate with me." This is reasonably close, at least at first, to the really confident presentation: "I'm good, so I don't need you. But I enjoy being with you anyway, so let's hang out." Thus jerks appear incredibly confident, and thus attractive.

They appear even more attractive in comparison to the typical "nice guy"--the problem with nice guys isn't that they're nice, but that they're obsequious. One girl pointed out that there's a difference between a guy you've been dating for a while knowing what you especially like and going out of his way to get it--which is nice--and someone you barely know knowing exactly what you like and going out of his way to get it--which can seem stalker-ish and a bit creepy. More generally, there's nothing wrong with being considerate; but a lot of "nice guys" give off an air of "I really need a date, please, please, give me the gift of letting me date you" (which is the exact opposite of the jerk's "I'm giving you the gift of letting you date me). I know that for years I carried myself with that sort of attitude when talking to girls--perhaps these are your "bad vibes," Jennifer? At any rate, it makes you seem wimpy, and unconfident, and thus not-very attractive.

On a related note, Smacky, if I'm understanding Kwais correctly, I think I agree with him. Guys also tend to find confidence attractive, I think, although they seem to place much more weight on appearance than girls do. But in this sort of forum, I have no clue what either you or Jennifer look like. So either I can make up an appearance, or ignore it completely. If I do the former, it's likely to be influenced by your personality; since you both have very attractive personalities, it's easy to assume you're good-looking, too (sort of the inverse of a common guy mistake--see an attractive girl and assume she's worth knowing, too). And while you're self-deprecating, you're not self-deprecating the way someone who really believed it would be. Instead, it just suggests that you're comfortable enough with yourself that you don't need to pretend virtues you don't have. Makes you seem more confident, not less.

Hope y'all will pardon a long, and slightly personal, jumping-in from a guy who mostly just lurks (damn not-getting-to-read-threads-until-they're-dead syndrome!). And take this for what it is: commentary from a guy who has (he thinks) mastered the theory, but falls a little short on the practice 🙂

[Jennifer]

Jadagul-
I think you're right about why many women are attracted to jerks-- self-confidence IS sexy, and at first it's hard to tell the difference between a self-confident cool guy and an overconfident jerk. But the 'bad vibes' I was talking about in reference to Akira wasn't a low self-opinion; much of Akira's contributions to this thread were a litany of complaints about how we're all shallow airheads who won't give the time of day to anyone who's less than a GQ model.

Earlier on this thread I mentioned a guy I went out with once and only once, because he spent pretty much our whole evening talking about how all women (except me!) were slime. The sad thing is that this guy wasn't trying to turn me off; I'm sure he felt he was flattering me, but after awhile I started to feel like a black guy being told by a Klansman, "Hell, boy, I wouldn't hate niggers if they were all like you!"

And when I didn't go out with him again, I'm sure this was added to his mental "women are scum" file. He honestly didn't understand why women didn't like him, which was a shame, because if he could get over this negative attitude he would have been a REALLY cool guy who could have made some woman, and himself, very happy. I think that's what's going on with Akira.

My boss just entered the office, so I suppose I should get to work now.

P.S. I'm wearing my rhinestone horn-rim cateyes today, and got four compliments already. Get yourself a pair, Smacky!

[Mo]

Jennifer,
Re: overconfident jerks. I was having lunch with my ex (against my general policy, but she?s so fucking cool, I want her in my life as a friend, I mean how many beautiful, libertarian, South Park watching, FARK start page girls are there, she?d be right at home here) and she was telling me how it took her years to figure out that assholes aren?t confident, but she?d assumed as much because it took balls to be an asshole, they must be confident. I told her, and she concurred, that most assholes just use it to conceal their lack of confidence. The problem is there?s a fine line between being a nice guy and being a pansy, so many girls overlook nice guys. One way to mitigate that is to be hyperconfident and nice, which is easier said than done.

Akira,
Jennifer is giving you some good advice. It?s all about confidence. If you walk around thinking you?re the shit and carrying yourself accordingly, you?ll get more interest. I used to have a pretty low self-esteem, but one incident in college really changed my self-image and after that I was doing far better with the ladies. If you carry yourself like you don?t need them, then they?ll flock to you (relatively speaking). One reason why, I?m convinced, that women hit on me far more when I?m in a relationship (even before I mention it) than when I?m not in one.

[thoreau]

For those who can't get a date, here's a suggestion that will no doubt be unpopular on this forum:

Go to church!

(Pause for whailing and gnashing of teeth.)

Now, I didn't say that you should believe in anything, I just said you should go to their events to meet people. Trust me, it works.

If you don't think you can take Christianity, go to a Unitarian church. Or, since this is a libertarian forum, go to a Druid meeting or Wiccan church or something. Point is, find a religion that you can at least pretend to enjoy and go there. Trust me, it works.

[Jennifer]

Concerning what Mo said, when I taught high school some of my girl students came to talk to me after school; they were feeling blue because they were dateless and convinced that they'd remain so for life. So I said to them, "You know, when I was your age I didn't date either, and I was SURE the universe had it in for me because there were lots of guys who liked me, but they were never the guys I liked. Do you girls have that problem, too?" (Groans and nods of recognition.) "Okay then, so we know it's not just me. Now think about this: is there anything different about the way you act around the guys you like, versus the way you act around the guys who like you?"

So after some Socratic back-and-forth questioning, the girls finally got my point: when they weren't trying to impress anybody, but just being themselves, this was apparently very attractive and there were plenty of guys who wanted to date them. But when they were around the guys THEY LIKED, they basically tried too hard and ended up driving them away. That's what I had in mind when I told Akira to talk to a woman like a friend, not a date.

Akira, if you are listening, every woman on this thread, and many men as well, agree that my advice to you was good. Maybe we're all part of some huge conspiracy to keep you dateless for life, but Occam's Razor would suggest instead that I do, in fact, know what I'm talking about here.

[smacky]

thoreau,

the biggest objection I have to your suggestion to go to religious gatherings to meet people: sure, you might score a date, but is an actually non-religious person going to want to seriously date someone of strong religious faith? Moreover, is that person of faith going to accept the presumably non-religious atheist/Libertarian/humanist/naturalist/secularist/Satanist/whathaveyou, without trying to convert them to their own faith?

kwais,

I said I didn't want to ruin the thread for thoreau because he was enjoying the fact that nobody was fighting on it...and a battle-of-the-sexes discussion would most likely lead to an arguement, especially considering our opposite viewpoints on said matter...
...I just apologized for the mullet comments since you seemed to be implying I'm arrogant or something, and that was the only thing that I could find that I said on this thread that might lead someone to believe I'm conceited...just trying to cover my ass.

Now about my screen name: Have you ever seen the comic strip "Get Fuzzy" by Darby Conley? "Smacky" is Bucky Katt's tiny toy teddybear.

P.S. I'm wearing my rhinestone horn-rim cateyes today, and got four compliments already.

That's better than what I'm wearing to work today: third-degree sunburn. Or so it feels like. (Bonus: the sunburn marks are uneven, too!). I haven't gotten any compliments on it yet, but I'll let you know when I do.

[Serafina]

Online personals have worked incredibly well for me for dating. I'm on the road by myself a lot for work, and it's been great for meeting interesting people in the places I travel regularly. I have all these odd connections I never would have made otherwise. The church route would never work for me, but language classes, running clubs, Scrabble clubs with cutthroat competition--anything where meeting people is a secondary benefit--have been great ways to find opportunities for friendship and dating.

Smacky, that color looks wonderful on you--not many women would have the aplomb to carry off the look, but you make it look so stylish.

[Jennifer]

It also accentuates your cheekbones, Smacky. Don't think of it an a sunburn--think of it as Mother Nature's Rouge.

[Mo]

smacky,
I think thoreau's advice is to the fellas. If you wanna find a date, you can just head over to the nearest sci fi convention. 🙂 Either that or talk to the shy guy in the group of cool guys at the bar, he's invariably the most interesting one. Though I think that's why thoreau mentioned a Unitarian Church, not really that religious in comparison to other religions. But it's never really fun to date someone that knows you're going to hell.

[thoreau]

Mo-

Yeah, my advice was more for men.

If you libertarian guys don't want to go to a Christian church, just paint your skin blue and head to a Druid meeting! 😉

[Stevo Darkly]

Oh, what a great thread. I wish I had time to contribute today. Maybe I will tonight, if the thread isn't dead by then. Just time for a few of the most crucial observations:

1) I think much wisdom is being shared here, by Jennifer and a number of other posters.

2) Daphne or Velma? As a kid I liked Daphne. But more recently, I find myself more likely to fantasize about Velma. I bet there are some voluptuous curves hidden beneath that oversized turtleneck sweater. (Plus I have a turtleneck sweater fetish; one of my 126 fetishes.)

The only thing in Velma's disfavor now is that, to my recollection, she's never given a hint of a playful or sensual side. But maybe she's just repressing a freaky side. I wonder what kind of underwear she wears?

Oh, and definitely Mary Ann over Ginger.

3) Oh, and smacky, I'm sure your flushed, rubicund skin tones of the moment are very fetching. But just wait a few days when your skin starts to heal -- then you'll be very a-peeling.

[Akira MacKenzie]

Unhappy with your chin (or lack thereof)? Grow a beard.

Gah! Cruel irony! I just shaved off my beard on the assurance that women hated facial hair.

[smacky]

au contraire, Akira, beards are actually coming back in style in some circles:

here , here , and here .

[Serafina]

Don't worry Akira. I still hate facial hair, on either gender.

[kwais]

Serafina,
I have also tried the online dating thing, I too travel a lot. And have been largely unappy with the results, I get a lot of people who sell themselves as something that they are not. And I get a lot of people hit on me who are clearly not in the same price range as me (I know it sounds presumtous and shallow, but hey). Also I get a lot of chicks who are just trying to sell websites. Any suggestions?

[Serafina]

My main suggestion is to go at with a mind to have fun and collect amusing stories to tell. I cherish the bad meetings almost as much as tht good.

The way I generally did it was to put an ad up in a specific town the week before I'd be visiting. Don't try to be too clever or too serious, but genuine and succinct. Exchange a few emails or chat for a bit, and if someone seems interesting, set up a quick initial meeting, something really low key--a visit to a bookstore, chess challenge in Washington Square park, coffee. Something time-limited and public. I never left my ad up for more than two days. (Except in LA. I was inexplicably, totally ignored in LA while using an ad that did exceedingly well in NYC and DC. Go figure.)

As a guy, you need to take a slightly different strategy. Only respond to ads that have been up just a few hours, or wait until they've been up a week or two. Girls only pay attention to the first responses they get. After that, they're overwhelmed by the volume and they've already started conversations with likely prospects. But after a week or two, they may have blown through all their initial possibilities.

There's a lot of sorting to do, and it's got to be more difficult for guys because a lot of women, like me, don't bother to be proactive and respond to a guy's ad. But if you just ruthlessly weed out the people who don't interest you, it can be fun.

Meeting quickly without too much back-and-forth first is the key. You know immediately if there's not going to be any schmecking. Or if you get a fun vibe that someone might be a good parter in crime if not someone you want to date.

[kevrob]

I just read Jennifer's comment from June 13, 2005 01:09 PM. Tina Fey must play Jennifer in the movie!

Kevin