But They Were Ham Sandwiches!

Last week a 57-year-old middle school principal from Des Moines was treated like a disciple of Osama bin Laden after she accidentally packed a bread knife in a food cooler she was bringing aboard a plane departing from Los Angeles. Cecilia Beaman had brought the knife, along with two others that she packed in checked luggage, to make sandwiches for the 37 schoolchildren she was supervising during a trip to a band competition in California. KOMO-TV in Seattle reports that a Transportation Security Administration screener told Beaman, "You've committed a felony….And you're considered a terrorist."

Beaman says she was told her name would go on a terrorist watch-list and that she would have to pay a $500 fine.

"I'm a 57-year-old woman who is taking care of 37 kids," she told them. "I'm not gonna commit a terrorist act." Beaman says they took information from her Washington drivers license and confiscated and photographed the knife according to standard operating procedure.

She says screeners refused to give her paperwork or documentation of her violation, documentation of the pending fine, or a copy of the photograph of the knife.

"They said 'no' and they said it's a national security issue. And I said what about my constitutional rights? And they said 'not at this point…you don't have any.' "

[Thanks to Kirk Gray for the link.]

Comments

[thoreau]

Well, I feel safer already!

[gaius marius]

would've been worse under kerry. 🙂

[David]

Love that TSA!

They were probably all geared up from not confiscating a nail clip in a few days. I know that there's no common sense among these people, but really, a knife in a cooler as a terrorist act? Could you have a more obvious example of an innocent mistake?

[metalgrid]

A principal that now knows what it feels like to be treated as a criminal. Guess he now knows how those kids feel going to school through a metal detector.

I for once welcome the hamfisted decline of innocence and liberty. I forsee a profitable future in jails and concentration camps.

[Troy]

I watched these stupid fucks harrass and old man and his wife in Vegas last week. She was in a wheel chair and had that old paper thin skin that the incrediably old have.
They ordered him, not so nicely, to take off his ball cap, shoes, belt, and cell phone. The old guy had a hard time putting the stuff on the belt to be x-rayed because, well, because he was so damn old.
Then they ran his bag through the screener and was orderd to move to the side becuase they'd have to look in his bags.
And who followed him. None other than some guy right out Rambo III, with a big long beard and very Afghanistani look. (Gasp, racial profiling).
I am no expert but he looked way more suspicious than the couple who were about to have dual heart attacks. But, alas, perspicacity is not in TSA's vocabulary or, to put it another way, they are just too damn stupid to comprehend the difference.

[David]

Good point metalgrid, but I think the concept of coercive searchs, and zero tolerance policies will be lost on Ms. Beaman when she is no longer being personally inconvenienced.

[ralphus]

Wha! Wha! Wha!

What about my constitutional rights?

Wha! Wha! Wha!

Typical terrorist whining.

They should have tazered her ass and beat her down. The children should learn the consequences of questioning the authority of recovering alcoholics wearing laminated badges and short-sleeved dress shirts.

[Jennifer]

I haven't flown since '90 or '91, but with my new job I'm told I can expect to make frequent flights to visit various clients. And our major client is in DC. My sense of timing has always sucked.

[Number 6]

I'm eagerly awaiting Jennifer's response to this.

[Instant Karma]

The appropriate penalty for the principal is expulsion, i.e., she should lose her job. Zero tolerance, goose and gander, etc.

While I have no love for police-state tactics, I love it when their own agents get a taste of it. Now if only more Congresscritters and state legislators were to taste the metaphorical lash.

[Timothy]

I hate the old as much as anyone else (stop leeching off of my paycheck for your Medicare and your Social Security, you elderly sluggards) but I doubt a wheel-chair granny or a school teacher is going to commit a terrorist act. I mean, if she teaches at a public school she might hate America, but probably not enough to, you know, kill people.

[Number 6]

Whoops. She posted as I typed. I'm a bit disappointed; between the inolvement of a public school teacher and the presence of officious jackasses in jackboots, I'd have expected more venom.

[Seamus]

Why isn't her ass off at Gitmo now? She sounds like one of those people who hate America. (So does Troy, too, for that matter.)

[Jennifer]

Number 6--
Ordinarily I would be quite venomous on this topic, but I'm still at work and I'm feling pretty tired.

I'll say this, though--the more these bullshit laws (and I'm thinking of drug laws in particular) affect so-called "respectable" pillar-of-the-community types, the better off we'll be in the long run. Right now the average American doesn't give a damn about the grave injustices in our country because they figure they won't be affected by them. The sooner they realize this is bullshit, the sooner things might change for the better.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to try and find out which of my office-mates left the copy of "Cannabis Culture" magazine in the kitchen. Despite the long hours and eventual flights, Jesus Christ do I love my new job.

[ralphus]

Troy,

I witnessed a similar scene in Burbank with an old dude suffering from a pretty serious type of palsy. It made me physically ill to watch these tools put him through the paces like his last name was Atta. I've also seen the super sleuths pat down grannies and four-year-oId girls. I understand and agree, to a point, with the arguments against profiling. But I certainly don't think that no profiling should mean no common sense.

[Ken Layne]

Once being a TSA chickenshit thug is a very dangerous job -- like, 40 or 50 of them are beaten to pulps every single day at airports across America, mostly by angry old ladies and pissed-off school urchins -- maybe they'll chill out a bit.

This would actually work for a *lot* of annoying little tyrants: cops, congresspeople, zoning police, Rumsfeld ... and, of course, school principals.

[Geoff Nathan]

I am no friend of the TSA myself (I just managed to get myself off the 'extra scrutiny' list), but you can make a plausible case for truly random full screening (i.e. search every nth person, regardless of how they look). Without truly random screening real terrorists could keep sending 'suspicious' people through the line till they found out the look that reliably slipped through (and if it was someone disguised as a 95-year-old, so be it), then slip the requisite folks through. There's actually an academic paper on this topic, pointing this out with all the appropriate mathematical argumentation. I don't know what the solution is, aside from teaching the searchers some manners and insisting they offer to assist older and handicapped folks if they want them to (semi-)disrobe. But 'profiling' isn't a bad idea because it's not politically correct--it's a bad idea because it doesn't keep terrorists off airplanes. Random searches, even of little old ladies, are a more effective security measure. Sorry...

[Eddy]

Can't we just put those dog collars on every nth congress person, tsa, kid that kicks the back of your chair on a nonstop from Hong Kong to NY, or the parent of said kid just for fun. You know the ones that give an electric shock when you step out of line. OH, sorry, have I been holding that button this whole time?

[Jim Walsh]

The most fundamental strategy of terrorism is to provoke a draconian response from the target government that will turn the people against it. In that sense, can anybody deny that Washington has played right into the hands of bin Laden and Company?

[zeroentitlement]

The Seattle TSA are the most belligerent, rudest, and least professional of the TSA flunkies I've encountered since flying post-9/11. They're also slower and less efficient than those agents at airports in which you might expect to experience more of a bottleneck, such as JFK-NY, Miami, and San Juan, PR.

They come by it honestly, I suppose, given that Seattleites in general are fatally passive-aggressive and endowed with vastly inflated and elitist senses of self-worth. (Yes, I'm a Seattle native.)

[Serafina]

I fly about 50,000 miles a year and I really have few complaints about the TSA employees--it's the policies they've been hired to implement that are the problem. Sure, there are times I've mocked the woman who broke the nail file off my clippers (to make them "safer") and then cut herself on the razor-sharp stub she left. But she was trying to be helpful. And it's the stupid travellers that slow down the security lines much more often than the security procedures themselves or the TSA personnel. The principal here was obviously forgetful rather than criminal, and I hope it's all straightened out on review. But packing the knife was a really stupid mistake on her part and there are signs all over the place reminding people it's a felony. I hope her school would also show compassion for students who show the same forgetfulness and leave a pocket knife from a picnic in their backpacks. Make a fuss at first, but ultimately come to a reasonable decision.

[Dave]

I had a leatherman confiscated out of one of my carry-ons while flying out of Tucson in 2003. The TSA employees pretty much said "Well we can't let you on the plane with it." I didn't get charged with a felony and was not considered a terrorist, not on any watch list as far as I know. But I lost a $50 knife. I bet the TSA guys kept it, sons of bitches. Only difference between this teacher and myself could have been my military ID.

[drew]

Hmm it seems the answer ought to just be a simple presumption of innocence. You know "I'm sorry you seem to have accidentally left a knife in your lunch box, we can't allow you to take this on the plane". I could have sworn I remember something about innocent until proven guilty. Oh well that must have been a dream.

[johnl]

Goeff - 95 year olds in wheelchairs will get profiled every time since they are in metal chairs. Flying has become very hard for the disabled since friends can't help them to the gate anymore and they go through an extended metal hassle.

[Crusader Rabbit]

Dave --

I don't think they kept your leatherman. Right after 9/11, on a trip from L.A. to Toronto, they took my $30 precision German steel scissors (the tiny ones for beard trimming). I threw a fit and accused them of just wanting to keep these cool scissors for themselves.

The TSA'er slowly, with a great sigh, walked behind the barricade and returned with a 2' square plastic box actually brimming over with a mountain of every type, style, brand, and size of small scissors you could ever imagine. She looked me in the eye and said, "You know, if I wanted some cool scissors, I could take my pick."

OK. They may be troglodytes and assholes, but now I'm convinced that at least they don't keep or sell the stuff they confiscate.

[Ruthless]

My nasal hair-clipping scissors were confiscated not long ago when I was trying to depart the Sinincincinnati airport.

Doesn't that make you feel better about Bush and his non-disassembling policies?

Fortunately, I was since able to procure an even sharper pair, or my nasals would be a bush.

[Wombat]

Just serve everybody a nice crispy piece of Iowa bacon. Shoot those that refuse.

About as legal and as sensible as what we're doing now.

[Serafina]

Um, johnl, as I witnessed just yesterday, friends or family members can still help the disabled to their gate and wait with them until they are boarded on the plane. Parents can also accompany their minor children to the gate, even if they are not also flying. They simply need to make the arrangements ahead of time. Which is annoying fact of life for people with disabilities, not just at airports but whereever they may go.

[Jemez Hobbit]

.. I think that Jim Walsh pretty much hit the nail on the head ..

.. my $0.02 ..

[CAT_violations]

Re: The boxes of scissors, nail files, pocket knives, etc.

Whatever happened to the idea of property rights?

Anytime someone is arrested at any police station anywhere in the US the cops MUST fill out an inventory of everything that is confiscated, MUST carefully safeguard it for the duration of the guest's stay, and everything MUST be returned to the person upon their departure. Otherwise I think (though I could be wrong) the cops are liable for it. This goes for everything from the rich guys Gucci wallet (and its contents) to the homeless guy's Bic lighter.

I mean I realize these are pocket knives and nose hair trimmers and the like, but property rights are fundamental. And things like Leatherman tools can be expensive or have sentimental value. Imagine if the "War Watch" from Pulp Fiction was a pocket knife, for instance. (Yes, I realize it's a fictional movie and all, I haven't been wearing my tinfoil hat for that long.)

These people should be FORCED to tape a phone number or address card to the property of anyone that requests it, and mail it back to them. Yes, I realize it might slow things down, but what's an extra minute?

I seem to remember something about "no taking without just compensation" in some document somewhere - I forget where. Maybe it was in something Congress passed without reading.

Geez people have become so passive.

[Randolph Carter]

Um, about what the TSA does with the confiscated items... There was just a huge article in the NYT about how they auction off large lots of scissors, pocket knives, and knitting needles on eBay and take in the revenue for themselves. Bastards.

[Dave]

These people should be FORCED to tape a phone number or address card to the property of anyone that requests it, and mail it back to them. Yes, I realize it might slow things down, but what's an extra minute?

I like where your heart is at CAT V, but here a couple reasons why I didn't try this.

1) There is no accountability for this and no reason for them to help me out. I'm the enemy to your average TSA agent. If me or my fellow travelers don't show up at all Mr. TSA employee gets to sit there and suck on the government teet while he BS's with the other TSA jerks.

2) When you are in a hurry anyway to catch your plane you tend to have tunnel vision.

3) Its the government even man! If they did have a policy where they returned people's stuff it wouldn't work.

[Shem]

There's a simple way to avoid losing pocket knives/scissors/etc. Throw them in with your carry-on luggage before you board. Then not only will you avoid setting off the metal detector, lessening your time in line, but you'll also get to keep your things. Maybe it's me, but arguing about the loss of a pocket knife when people are being told that an unelected official thinks he has the rights to void the Constitution at will seems petty and counterproductive.

[CAT_violations]

Shem-

Perhaps. But if they start getting corrected each time they try to violate Constitutional rights, no matter how trivial, perhaps things would start changing.

[jake]

What's so stupid about the TSA screening is that on every flight there are hundreds of uninspected packages in the cargo holds. If you want to blow up a plane just send the bomb air mail.

[Randy]

Reminds me of a few stories. First, a story where some member of government (pardon me for feeling lazy this morning) was going to be searched and was being treated like a terrorist (including isolation in a separate room where she was to be interrogated), and when she asked what law was being broken or being used to justify the treatment, they told her they couldn't tell her because it's a security issue. She understandably told them to fuck off and left.

Second is when Ted Kennedy was stopped at venerable bastion of security, Logan International Airport (anyone want to fly some planes into some buildings?), and told he couldn't board his flight because his name was on a terrorist watch list. TED FUCKING KENNEDY. All you John Smiths and Steve Joneses out there better hope terrorists don't use your names next time they pull a fast one.

Third, a woman with her infant was stopped in line because she had a diaper bag. In the bag was a bottle filled with breastmilk. She had understandably expelled earlier to give it to the baby during flight to prevent crying. Well, the security guards said she couldn't board with unsealed beverages or liquids in unsealed containers, and there was no way for them to know what the substance was, so she had to drink it to prove it wasn't poison or explosives or what-have-you. She takes a sip, and they shake their heads. No, ma'am, you've got to drink the WHOLE THING. That's right...she had to drink her whole bottle of breastmilk because apparently that stuff can be used to take down a 757.

Fourth, a woman brought a few sanitary napkins in her purse. The screener searched her purse and found them. He demanded to know what was inside, and her explanation did not placate him, so he opened the napkins. She says (paraphrase) "Those WERE sanitary napkins. The whole point is that they're sealed to guarantee they're sanitary. You've ruined them all, thankyouverymuch." (This one MIGHT be urban legend, as I haven't run it by snopes.com yet, so I apologize in advance if I've used a lie to mock stupidity).

[kwais]

I fly many many hours and have many stories of TSA stuff. I am always paranoid that I may have left a hand grenade or a gun in my carry on bag.

I usually want to tell the TSA people that they don't need to search me, even if I am carrying a gun, I am part of the solution not part of the problem.

One time I had a carry on bag, and I went through security 5 different times at 3 different airports, and on the fourth time going through security the guy said he saw something in the Extray and wanted to take a closer look at it. I said "whatever dude, this same pack has been through security five times and there is nothing new about it" Then the security dude searched the bag and found some rifle bullets that were in a fold that I handen't searched.

I blushed and apologised. I though I was going to be in trouble but the guy just took the bullets and let me through. That was the coolest airport security guy ever.

[kwais]

Randy,
Did you ever hear the one where a DEA agent was about to board a plane, and because he is a federal agent, he is allowed to fly with his pistol. Still they searched him, and they found nail clippers and they confiscated them. He said "I have a handgun, why do you need to take my nailclippers?" They had no response, but they didn't budge.

There is another one where they stopped and searched some pilot and took his scissors. He said "I don't need a sharp object to take control of the plane, I already have control of the plane. The biggest weapon there is the flying gas tank, I have control of it!"

There are also stories of TSA confiscating medals from WW1 and WW2 because they are big sharp metal objects.

I don't know if any of those stories are true.

I had my nail clippers confiscated in England. I consider my self lucky though, because when security found Kenny from Southpark with nail clippers they shot him.

[Jennifer]

As a personal matter, I'm most concerned about the stories about young women getting fondled in the name of national security. Have you seen the lists of recommended attire for women who fly? Wear nice, tight clothes, so the TSA screeners can tell you're not smuggling a nuke in your pants. Wear just one layer of clothes, even if it December in New England. Women are also advised not to wear underwire bras to set off the metal detectors. Sorry, but for those of us with overdeveloped chestworks, underwire bras are the ONLY ones that provide the necessary support.

When I do have to fly on business, it'll most likely be just a day trip, so I won't have to worry about luggage, but I am very nervous about being singled out by some horny flunky who feels the need to feel me up (for national security, of course). I'm seriously wondering if I shouldn't buy myself a digital camcorder or something.

[John M. Joy]

The primary purpose of the TSA regs (and other nonsense like this) isn't "public safety" (or even, in that latter case, revenue generation: the seat belt violation fine in Connecticut is $37, which probably doesn't cover the costs of processing).

The primary purpose is to remind you, Citizen, who's the boss. It's a regulatory "donkey punch."

JMJ

[kwais]

Jen,
See you and I have different personalities.

I volunteer to be searched. I step of to the extra search area, and I strip down naked, and tell that what areas are particular security threats and need extra searching.

Apparently they don't like that though. Who'd have thought? I am just trying to make their job easier.

Where as they don't like your type, not wanting to be searched and all that. They really don't like my type.

I know I kind of told the same joke last time we talked about the TSA. But I like the joke a lot, and some might not have heard it.

[Jennifer]

Kwais-
Being searched is one thing; being dry-humped is something else altogether. I don't like Saudi Arabia ordering women to dress in tents; TSA ordering women to dress like sluts isn't much better. And where the HELL does the government get off telling me what kind of UNDERWEAR I have to wear if I want to travel?

[kac90b]

Obviously, TSA over-reacted. But did I miss something? How damn stupid do you have to be to try to carry a bread knife onto an airplane?

[Jennifer]

Kac90b-
Here's another way to phrase to question: How damn stupid do you have to be to think our government's intelligent enough to distinguish between a breadknife and a threat?

True story, though it will Godwin this thread: when the Nazis came to power they confiscated Einstein's bank accunts and other worldly goods because they found a 'dangerous weapon' in his house. Yep--it was a breadknife.

[Jennifer]

Make that "bank ACCOUNTS." Freudian slip.

[Serafina]

The only time I've been patted down was by a fetching blonde beauty in Amsterdam. She ran the backs of her fingers underneath my breasts. Unfortunately most TSA employees don't have her charming ways, but happily, voluntarily giving up my Swiss Army knife rather than checking it has been the worst that's happened to me. And they now generally allow corkscrews in carry-on luggage again, so things don't seem as draconian as they once were.

Most of the procedures in place seem designed to cover ass rather than have any real effect in stopping terrorists.

[moonbiter]

I once stupidly left a manicure kit with a tiny knife in my carry-on bag while flying in Germany (Cologne to Berlin). The security guys pointed it out, and then helpfully suggested that if I didn't want to lose the kit I could go back out to the counter and check the bag in as luggage.

What I don't understand is why they don't do that in America too.

[Seamus]

"Second is when Ted Kennedy was stopped at venerable bastion of security, Logan International Airport (anyone want to fly some planes into some buildings?), and told he couldn't board his flight because his name was on a terrorist watch list."

How stupid can the government be? I mean, wouldn't the real threat to public safety be letting Ted *drive* from Boston to Washington.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Serafina:

Simply..the..best..post..ever..

[linguist]

Jennifer,

You said you hadn't flown in a few years so I'll tell you, you don't need to worry about being sexually harassed. I have rotten karma so I always get the "extra screening". It's always done by a woman, and they use those wands, not their hands. They're also usually large women, so they even sometimes are kind to women whose bras set off the detectors.

[Jennifer]

In today's edition of "Slate" Christopher Hitchens has a good article talking about he futilityh and stupidity of modern airport security:

http://www.slate.com/id/2120330/

[Jennifer]

Linguist-
According to various articles I've read (but can't post to, since I didn't save the addresses), the rules say that women are only to be searched by women, but it also said that oftentimes there aren't enough women screeners to handle them, so the woman is given a choice--be searched by a man, or miss your flight. Since I'll be flying on business, that really isn't a choice at all. And the number of women complaining about being singled out for searches is HUGE. For some reason, TSA seems convinced that the next big terrorist attack will be conducted with weapons hidden in a woman's bra.

[Jennifer]

Found a couple of stories on Google, and cut'n'pasted a quote for good measure:

http://www.freedomwriter.com/issue33/am59.htm

http://www.newswithviews.com/NWVexclusive/exclusive62.htm

http://www.newswithviews.com/Ryter/jon69.htm

Heather Maurer, a Washington, DC business executive received her "cheap feel" at Logan International Airport in Boston. Although she and several other women with whom Mauer said she had spoken were very offended by the pat-downs, all of them were reluctant to go on the record by filing a written complaint for fear that they would end up on a TSA suspect list and would be singled out whenever they traveled by air. A male screener gave her a full body pat-down, lifted her shirt and looked down the back of her pants. When he did it, she said: "I'm not comfortable having you feel me up." Like most of the women who fly, Mauer was convinced she didn't have a choice?except to give up flying, which was something she can't afford to do.

Nancy Jackson, the president of a global company headquartered in New York said she has also learned not to express her objections to the pat-down. "If you do," she said, "they really feel you up. And then [they] check every section of your wallet and every item in your carryon, including your makeup and toiletries. It's disgusting."

Lu Chekowsky, an advertising executive from Portland, Oregon is another reluctant flyer now. She's been felt up so many times she now wears baggy trousers, flip-flops, and an oversized sweat shirt when she travels to make the pat-down get over quicker. "Routinely," she said, "my breasts are being cupped and my behind is being felt. I feel I can't fight it. If I say anything, I picture myself being shipped off to Guantanamo."

[TheDumbFish]

I'm finding this thread very stimulating.

[Serafina]

Any abuse like that described by the TV sweeps-week investigative report is too much and should be prosecuted. But with 250 total complaints and 2 million passengers flying each day, groping by a screener isn't something I'm particularly worried about when flying.

[John M. Joy]

Serafina wrote:

Most of the procedures in place seem designed to cover ass rather than have any real effect in stopping terrorists.

Moonbiter wrote:

What I don't understand is why they don't do that in America too.

See my post at 08:26.

JMJ

[Mad Scientist]

Not that I want to give those TSA morons any ideas, but I find it highly amusing that you're not allowed to take assault weapons like nail clippers and bread knives onto an airplane, but once the plane is in the air the airline is perfectly happy to give an aluminum can to everyone on board. No, you couldn't turn one of those into a weapon in about 5 seconds using just your bare hands....

But since the whole passenger screening fiasco is just a dog and pony show, I suppose it doesn't really matter.

[thoreau]

I'm seriously wondering if I shouldn't buy myself a digital camcorder or something.

Jennifer, do you want to find out the hard way what the government does to people who catch it doing bad things...um, I mean, people who conduct illegal surveillance of confidential security procedures?

Even worse, do you actually think they'd do anything to the guy if you videotaped him feeling you up?

[Jennifer]

Thoreau-
Some women have already brought lawsuits against TSA. And here's my plan: when I DO take business trips, at least one of my co-workers, if not my boss, will be with me. They're all male; I'm the only woman at my company. So I'll give THEM the camcorder while I go on ahead to be searched. Camcorders are tiny these days; TSA may not even notice until it's too late.

In all seriousness, if I were poor or dark-skinned I'd be too afraid to do it.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Jennifer:

Back when I used to work out, I would occasionally get comments and some gropes from females. When they were hot, it was a huge buzz. However, there were a few fugly middle-aged bags, which really sucked. So yeah, I can understand, in a way, your concern about being handled by some ugly creep.

That's why they should only hire moonlighting strippers and lingerie models as screeners. That would solve all our problems.

[thoreau]

Jennifer-

Just make sure the guy holding the camcorder isn't Arab. Otherwise he'll be in Gitmo and the newspapers will run stories of an Arab man who was staking out airport security to spot weaknesses.

I wonder why Mo hasn't weighed in on this thread.

[Jennifer]

Thoreau-
Nope, all Caucasians.

Mr. Nice Guy-
Having worked as a stripper in college and grad school, let me say that I do NOT want to be groped by my former colleagues. And you wouldn't either, if you knew them as well as I do.

Besides, even if the TSA guy who gropes me is a fucking Adonis that's beside the point. The only reason the Founding Fathers didn't include "freedom from unwanted groping" in the Bill of Rights is because it never occurred to them that our country would be run by perverts who'd make such a right necessary.

[Jennifer]

What timing! I just went to see if anything interesting is on Fark, and their new story is that CVS has disposable camcorders. And there's a CVS just a block from my house.

[Don]

Right from the beginning (i.e., after the 9/11 reforms), an Israeli security expert proclaimed that the American airport security system was designed to "annoy people", not to stop terrorists. It's that only way it's going to work, because a no-tolerance policy towards weapons is the only PC approach. Looking for terrorists implies some level of profiling, which is bound to offend specific groups.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Jennifer:

All joking aside.. yeah, strippers are very adept at liberating some slug of his cash on hand. Any guy who buys into the flirting as anything else besides financial is a jackass.

Though I revere our founding fathers (in fact, I can see the Jefferson Memorial from my office window), you would have to admit that those old boys were probably octopusses themselves (c'mon.. Ben Franklin?). Some guys just simply don't have basic manners.

[cdunlea]

Plastic knives are verboten, but apparently bloody chainsaws are just fine.

[cdunlea]

Plastic knives are verboten, but apparently bloody chainsaws are just fine.

[Shem]

CAT_violations-

And if this were just a matter of people's property being stolen, that reaction would be understandable. But it's not; there are more important matters at stake. And the inability some libertarians seem to have to distinguish between something huge and terrible like a government agency convinced that it's a law unto itself and something that's irritating and questionable yet very small in the grand scheme of things is a big part of why we're seen as tinfoil hat people in the mainstream. Getting bogged down in what amounts to petty theft only distracts attention from what's really important.