Andrea Dworkin, One More Time


It's probably too late to be posting something about the death of Andrea Dworkin, but I only just stumbled on Susie Bright's eulogy for her. Bright is a famously porn-friendly feminist, and her comments are surprising enough to be worth quoting:

I was the one who said Dworkin was a great pornographer, if what that means is using explicit sex in her art to cause a tremendous sensation.

Along with Kate Millet in Sexual Politics, Andrea Dworkin used her considerable intellectual powers to analyze pornography, which was something that no one had done before. No one. The men who made porn didn't. Porn was like a low culture joke before the feminist revolution kicked its ass. It was beneath discussion. Not so anymore!

Here's the irony…every single woman who pioneered the sexual revolution, every erotic-feminist-bad-girl-and-proud-of-it-stiletto- shitkicker, was once a fan of Andrea Dworkin. Until 1984, we all were. She was the one who got us looking at porn with a critical eye, she made you feel like you could just stomp into the adult bookstore and seize everything for inspection and a bonfire.

The funny thing that happened on the way to the X-Rated Sex Palace was that some of us came to different conclusions than Ms. Dworkin. We saw the sexism of the porn business…but we also saw some intriguing possibilities and amazing maverick spirit. We said, "What if we made something that reflected our politics and values, but was just as sexually bold?"

Andrea did not like this one little bit. Honestly, when I started On Our Backs and Herotica, I thought all the girls were going to jump on the bandwagon. I had no idea how bad the animosity would get. I mean, I have tape recordings from colleges where I would go listen to Andrea lecture in rapt attention and turn my little cassette over to capture every word. I never dreamed that I would one day become one of the people she vilified.

Not that Bright is uncritical:

I know it's strange that I have such a tragic affection for her, when she apparently only had loathing for my kind. I've had women come at me with knives who felt they had to do me in, in Dworkin's name. Her passion and activism was classic Prime of Miss Jean Brodie. She was a dangerous lady, with no class analysis, no psychological insight–a scary combination. Her loaded warped pistol was neatly picked up by right wing creeps who took all the femme bullets out of it and never looked back.

Stephen Miller's thorough obit in The New York Sun is also worth reading. My favorite part is Dworkin's alleged exchange with Allen Ginsberg. "He said, 'The right wants to put me in jail.' I said, 'Yes, they're very sentimental; I'd kill you.'"

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  1. Interesting that Dworkin would have such a problem with Ginsburg. THere is hardly anything for a feminist to get angry over in poems such as ‘Sweet Boy Give Me Your Ass’.

  2. Well, there’s a place for nuts who look at things differently and inspire others to do so even if their final conclusions are…nuts.

  3. Most radicals are better at diagnosis than prescription.

  4. I believe that Dworkin said that even all-male homo porn was somehow violence against women, or “wymyn”. A truly loathsome person, and our society is well rid of her.

  5. joe,

    Granted I didn’t RTFA, but seems Bright doesn’t even necessarily say that Dworkin’s analysis was accurate per se so much as she’s saying that Dworkin opened doors by simply being willing to look at porn critically at all.

    Tonio (and Warren)

    As dumb, and okay repulsive, as Dworkin’s ideas were, what actual harm did she do anyone?

  6. I still think the world is worse off for having had Dworkin living in it. She helped the cultural right crack down on porn and provided ammunition for those who claim that “feminist” means “man-hater”.

    Maybe she did pioneer the field of porn analysis, but frankly that doesn’t seem like much of a contribution. I’ve never found myself watching porn and thinking “this is pretty good porn, but what it really needs is a social context”.

  7. fyodor,

    Certainly some of the legal harrassment against producers and consumers of porn can be traced to her and MacKinnon. When their anti-porn laws didn’t stick in Minnesota, they tried them in Canada, and they’re doing plenty of harm there.

    Also, all censors of Dworkin’s staure and influence hurt our free speech. They make censorship acceptable.

    And just because she failed in her ambition to keep me from watching porn, doesn’t mean she’s not a bad person for trying.

  8. If I were a lesbian, I’d be righteously pissed at Dworkin, and happy that she’s taking the big dirt nap, as she pretty much established the stereotype of the ferociously man-hating butch bitch. And then the anti-porn thing, of course…

  9. If Dworkin were alive, it would be quite unacceptable for anyone to try and forcibly silence her, or even worse, kill her. But that doesn’t mean I can’t be glad now that time, biology and the laws of nature have done these themselves.

  10. Steve,

    Valid complaints. Seems some of the loathing for her in these parts goes well beyond what we normally reserve for folks who have attempted, sometimes with success, to infringe on our liberties, but I certainly agree that that’s bad and worthy of criticism and opposition.

  11. Jennifer,

    Are you addressing me? If so, I’m certainly not trying to prohibit your glee at her demise, only inquiring into the nature of all the vitriol aimed at her. I would only caution to beware she’s not more influential in death than in life, as that’s been known to happen.

  12. Dan and clarityiniowa,

    You raise interesting points, but they ultimately beg the question of whether anyone should ever be held accountable (or under what circumstances they should be) for backlashes, or, more broadly speaking, for any indirect or inadvertent effects of their words (or even actions). I don’t think there’s probably any simple answer to that. I do suspect that who gets held accountable in such a fashion by whom is usually a very political matter. Ie, the person whom I hate (for whatever reason) can be blamed for all sorts of shit, while the person whom I like or back or is on my side of some fence should not be likewise blamed, but instead the blame should be limited to those who misunderstood or abused his or her words.

  13. fyodor,

    I’m not sure it qualifies as a “backlash” when you try to make porn illegal and partially succeed. Or when you preach hatred and succeed in attracting hateful followers.

    Dworkin didn’t try to accomplish good things and accidentally cause bad things. She tried to accomplish bad things and did.

  14. Dan,

    The suppression of porn issue I’ve already conceded as a concrete point against her. I’m talking about the charge that she invited right wingers to sterotype feminists and lesbians. Agreed, she would probably have all women fit that stereotype. But y’know, interestingly, it just occurred to me that both you and, sorry, clari-etc., are evidently speaking for others in that regard. The quoted passage of the blog helps demonstrate that not all of the supposedly victimized groups necessarily share the attitude that she victimized them. Not sure what it means except maybe what I suspect, that it’s primarily something about her mere words that pushes the buttons of those who hate her so much. Not that I especially like her, you understand….

  15. fyodor, I’m not sure I grasp your point … but suppose some guy (A) claimed to be a libertarian and (B) went around promoting the legalization of child prostitution for kids as young as six as a necessary immediate step in achieving a freer American.

    If that guy got a lot of media attention, and lapped it up and promoted himself, and became subsequently known as “Well-known libertarian John X. Doe, a fervent advocate of child prostitution …” I’d hate that guy. Especially if (1) he became the person most closely identified with libertarianism in the average American mind, and (2) caused people to assume anyone who claims the label “libertarian” is in favor of adults having sex with kids.

    I know it would be wrong to actively shut him up, but I’d look forward to the day he died, the sooner the better, and when that day came I’d probably rejoice.

    (I think this closely parallels the reason Jennifer dislikes Dworkin so strongly.)

  16. I don’t think porn is anything that needs to be looked at with a critical eye.

    Bill Hicks – who is also dead – had the answer to that question decades ago.

  17. fyodor,

    I don’t recall saying that either women or feminists had been “victimized” by Dworkin. I think the feminist movement has only itself to blame for embracing people like Dworkin and MacKinnon.

    And my complaint isn’t primarily that they helped the Right stereotype the feminist movement, although I realize I phrased it that way. My objection is that she took the Right’s pre-existing stereotype of feminists (“radical man-hating bitches”) and made it true for much of the movement, particularly those portions visible in the press and on college campuses. She gave rational, non-sexist men a good reason to be anti-feminist. She’s a big part of the reason why most women today are reluctant to say that they are feminists, even if (like the vast majority of people in this country) they believe in equal rights for men and women.

  18. There is one thing that I can’t wrap my head around regarding Dworkin. We’ve all heard what she was railed against: Pornography, sexual intercourse, etc.. However, I’d actually like to know what she was for. In Dworkin’s world, just how were men and women supposed to relate to one another? If relationships between essentially boiled down to rape, then what was the alternative? Did she ever elaborate oh this?

  19. Dworkin never said that relationships “boiled” down to rape. She said plenty of other bull though. Me…I hated the person…and loved the shit storms she started. But then I love chaos.

    For those so inclined…here are her words here are her words…I recomend her in the same way I might recomend Marx, you will want to argue with her at every point…she may have been a freak…but I agreed with her on one point and one point only…that woman should be able to kill thier abusers. I liked that part.

    ps. If you read down on Susie Brights post that Mr Walker points to, into the comments section…there is a link to a .pdf of an interview with Dworkin by Will Self…interesting if you are a Self reader.

  20. For those so inclined…here are her words…I recomend her in the same way I might recomend Marx, you will want to argue with her at every point…she may have been a freak…”

    Can you give me the Reader’s Digest version? I guess what I want to know is “What did Dworkin want?”

  21. “What did Dworkin want?” – Akira M.

    Heck, she was a womyn, at least technically. Such questions are unanswerable. 🙂


  22. Well, I’ve elicited a few interesting observations. Not sure if any of them quite explain the extent of the passion set against Dworkin to my mind, even if it’s reason aplenty to be opposed to her. Well of course, it’s a subjective thing. That said…if it’s largely her doing that many women (and men) embrace the feminist agenda but not the label, is that really such a bad thing? Hardly makes her one of the great villains of history, anyway. Stevo, to reiterate what I said, hopefully more clearly this time, I find it questionable to believe those who are not feminists and lesbians when they say that the reason they hate her is for encouraging unflattering stereotypes of feminists and lesbians. Is it not self-evident why? Especially when we have at least some evidence that feminists and lesbians themselves may not all share the emotion? Plus, I would hope I wouldn’t spit good riddance venom at some nut who’s been making libertarians look bad (not that there aren’t plenty of those already!!), but maybe I would, who knows. Yes, buttons get pushed. I hope I would at least listen to someone who suggested I put a little perspective on the matter. If this person can really affect people’s perceptions of libertarians so much, something else is going on, like perhaps ignorance or a desire to believe the stereotype. Plus, I would still find it quite odd to hear non-libertarians say that’s why they hate the guy and are happy he’s dead, etc!! Again, I’m not trying to condemn anyone, you can dance on as many graves as you like, it’s no big twad to me. Just trying to discuss the “Reason” of it all cause it just seems a little misplaced. Other than her partly successful crusade against pornography (which, as I stated above, puts her in company with many others not at the receiving end of nearly such intensity), I don’t see any reason to go beyond saying she’s full of shit and leaving it at that. Anyway, the next time you find it outrageous that someone has gotten bent out of shape over something someone else said or the way others react to him or her, at least remember we all have buttons that get pushed! Well, maybe that will never apply to you, but maybe it will too….

  23. Susie Bright is an amazingly generous woman, the kind of kick-ass feminist I admire.

  24. Hey, get this. Last night I told my girlfriend that I was questioning why Reasonoids hated Dworkin so much, and she said, “Because they’re MEN! And they don’t want to be told that all sex with women is rape! Seems reasonable to me.” And then a moment later she added, “Of course, they’re not having any sense of humor about it!” And a little later still: “Libertarians usually seem to have such a good sense of humor, why aren’t they having any sense of humor about this?” I think that all summed up what I’ve been trying to say better than any of my posts!!!

  25. Dworkin didn’t say “all sex is rape.” After several years of her writings being distorted into that assertion, she specifically denounced the idea.

    But hey, you’re all having so much fun with you lynching, I don’t want to interrupt.

    And besides, the libertarian creed is that nothing matters except what you want, right?

  26. Stevo Darkly hit the nail on the head, concerning my immense contempt and disdain for the woman. And as for those who say she really didn’t do much harm, well, that’s only because she didn’t have the power to do so.

    Exactly what do you think Dworkin meant when she said “Romance is rape with meaningful looks?”

  27. Also on a more personal note: when I was dancing to put myself through school, I had more than one Dworkinite say to me in effect that *I* shared responsibility in any man-on-woman crimes which occurred anywhere in the city. For that matter, 9-11 was probably my fault too, since the Taliban would never have come to power in Afghanistan if only I’d hacked all my hair off and stopped wearing makeup.

    And of course, the Dworkinites who criticized my employment were almost all trust-fund kids whose parents paid for their tuition and living expenses.

  28. What Dworkin actually said.

    (Originally posted on the other thread by David T.)

    So Dworkin never said “all sex is rape.” She did say that “intercourse” and “violation” are the same thing. It appears there is a distinction between “intercourse” and “sex,” and likewise “rape” and “violation,” that escapes certain defective intellects (for example, mine).

    She also said that, since sex is part of the marriage contract, a married woman is incapable of giving consent to sex — she literally has no choice. This is something to mull over.

  29. Here’s a quote from Stevo’s link; can anybody tell me the proper, Dworkin’s-not-nuts association to make from it?

    “The political meaning of intercourse for women is the fundamental question of feminism and freedom: can an occupied people–physically
    occupied inside, internally invaded–be free; can those with a metaphysically compromised privacy have self-determination; can those
    without a biologically based physical integrity have self-respect?”

  30. Bearing in mind, of course, that in Dworkin’s view the answer to the previous question is “No.”

  31. i’ll try:

    because women are not equal politically or power-wise to men, they cannot give fully-informed consent. consent in this case is an illusion.

  32. Consent is far less an illusion than the perception that Dworkin was sane. I’m sorry that the poor woman was mentally ill, but she shouldn’t have tried to raise her illness to the status of a philosophy.

  33. That said…if it’s largely her doing that many women (and men) embrace the feminist agenda but not the label, is that really such a bad thing?

    I think you misread the comments. Dworkin’s achievement was to discourage people from “embracing the feminist agenda” by doing her best to ensure that people identified “the feminist agenda” with “being a crazy bitch”. Most Americans are, after all, not man-hating bigots. They don’t want to be on the same side as someone who thinks sex is rape.

    Now, most Americans embrace the *old* feminist agenda, i.e. that men and women should have equal rights. But Dworkin had nothing to do with that. Those of us who embrace that agenda do so despite the Dworkins of the world, not because of them.

    No, this doesn’t make her “one of the great villains of history”. But in her lifetime she achieved a number of bad things and, so far as I can tell, no good things. That’s certainly enough to qualify her as a bad person in my book.

  34. Some women want to be dominated; some men want to be dominated. Dworkin ignored these personal preferences, and made blanket judgements on human behavior. As most identity politicos seek to limit individuals’ choice, so went Andrea Dworkin. Even if she saw all hetero intercourse as rape, it is not rape to all who practice it. She was an enemy of freedom.

    On top of that, I have it from a reliable source that she has to eat ookie cookies in hell for all eternity. So all those vengeful folks out there have that thought to keep them warm at night.

  35. As a feminist, I feel about Dworkin the same way that I, as an atheist and secular humanist, feel about those people who run around screaming that Christmas shouldn’t be a legal holiday–“Jesus Christ, does this idiot actually think he/she is helping the cause?”

  36. because women are not equal politically or power-wise to men, they cannot give fully-informed consent. consent in this case is an illusion

    No two people of any age, gender, or sexual orientation are every perfectly equal, power-wise. That doesn’t make it rational to infer that the potential for coercion in every relationship implies the *existance* of coercion in every aspect of every relationship. Nor, for that matter, is it rational to assume that because women have less *collective* power than men, each individual woman must be weaker than her partner.

  37. For those who keep saying that Dworkin is getting a raw deal, can you PLEASE tell me what she meant when she said “Romance is rape embellished with meaningful looks?” Seriously. How can that be construed as a rational statement?

  38. i’ll try again:

    the typical trappings of “romance” contain built-in weapons of patriarchy. they’re designed to elicit responses which, because they are culturally imbued in order to create a hierarchy of dominance, are inherently coercive.

    again, no consent = coersion. coersion + intercourse = rape.

    …this is sort of fun.

  39. Dhex-
    I see. So in Dworkinspeak, the difference between rape and romance is not the consent of the woman, but the facial expression of the man. Sounds like rape can be completely eradicated by the simple matter of making it illegal to fuck with the lights on.

  40. Or the dude could just wear a ski mask.

  41. “Now, most Americans embrace the *old* feminist agenda, i.e. that men and women should have equal rights. But Dworkin had nothing to do with that.”

    I wouldn’t be so sure. There is a long history of social traditionalists embracing “moderate” progressive beliefs only when they become a convenient fallback position to a more radical stance. For example, all the right wingers who declared their undying allegiance to racial equality only when affirmative action and the black nationalists came onto the scene, after years of “blah blah traditional southern blah blah.” Or all of the moderates and conservatives who are embracing on or another variety of civil unions/domestic partnerships, and oppose sodomy laws, now that full civil marriage for gay people is gaining momentum. I don’t have much trouble believing that the oddly convergent timing of the rise of militant, radical feminism and the mainstream’s acceptane of gender equality and mutual respect, wasn’t just a coincidence.

    “Those of us who embrace that agenda do so despite the Dworkins of the world, not because of them.” Yes, despite them. Just as the good old boys who decided they hate racial violence in 1968 did so “despite” Malcolm X.

  42. “… when I was dancing to put myself through school…”

    Jennifer, though I had already admired your opinions my respect for you just increased.

  43. i don’t really know what to say. if i mount a lukewarm explanation, it’s because in my heart i think she was a paternalistic woman whose accidents, incidents and tragedies of life combined to form a weird parody of the public understanding of feminism. mackinnon, while somewhat different, has shown this same tendency towards self-parody (the whole deep throat hospitalization thing)

    anyway, it may hearten you somewhat, jennifer, to know you’re not alone in your dislike for her. a few friends of mine are mostly straight women into bdsm stuff, and they’re more or less ready to dance on her grave. she was not friendly to sexual deviants of any stripe who went beyond her consideration of acceptable boundaries.

    while i might concur with joe in terms of the necessity of individual maniacs to counteract social mania, i think he’s taking it way too far. if anything, dworkin’s detractors, and i include myself in this category, are giving her far too much credit and influence. i realize now that i’d seen her a few times around brooklyn in past years.

  44. Thanks, Dhex. And if Joe is still here, I still wish he’d give me the non-batshit interpretation of “romance is rape embellished with meaningful looks.”

    On the bright side, there’s a good chance my boyfriend will rape me after tonight’s BOC concert! Too bad I’m brainwashed enough to think I’ll enjoy it.

  45. BOC? boards of canada? probably not, but i got excited anyway.

  46. BOC = Blue Oyster Cult?

    Knowing that “BOC” had to be a band, I figured I could turn up the full name if I tried Googling “+BOC +lyrics.” The 5th Web site listed in the search results was a recognizable Blue Oyster Cult fan site.

    In a weird bit of synchronicity, the 4th site list is a lyrics site and, via a typo, it claims to have the lyrics to “Don’t Fear the Raper.”

    You can make that your theme song for the evening, Jennifer, and mis-sing it along with the band.

  47. Yes … Even though it’s in questionable taste, these lyrics do seem to be an oddly appropriate, sad and touching send-off for Ms. Dworkin.

    (Link is to a Google cache, and it should be pop-up free; at least it is for me.)

  48. Stevo-
    Yes, Blue Oyster Cult. Playing for free at one of Connecticut’s fine Indian casinos.

  49. “I have it from a reliable source that she has to eat ookie cookies in hell for all eternity.”

    Erik: What, exactly, is an ookie cookie? Izzat anything like a California Potato Chip?

  50. Never mind – I looked it up, and I’m sorry I did…

  51. Yes, despite them. Just as the good old boys who decided they hate racial violence in 1968 did so “despite” Malcolm X.

    You honestly believe that Malcolm X *helped* the civil rights movement? Here’s a hint: you do not win the votes of the majority of voters by telling them they’re inherently evil. You don’t win the support of the people who control all the governments and businesses of the world by calling them rapists. You win their support by appealing to their better nature — something neither Dworkin nor Malcolm X ever did.

    Think about how Malcolm X looks to an objective, impartial observer: he was a convicted criminal who hated white people and belonged to a bizarre religious cult. Does that *sound* like somebody who would make white people sit up and say “oh hell yes, let’s make sure people like him can vote and hold political office”?

  52. joe,

    That’s an interesting thesis, but I think it ignores the fact that the only reason that moderate change is the only alternative to the radical element is that keeping the old ways (in the applicable examples) has lost its base of support and has thus been eliminated as a socially acceptable althernative. In other words, those who cynically seek a safe haven simply do not have the status quo available to them as a result of the social change that has made moderate change and radical elements the only available choices. It’s an unnecessary stretch to claim conservatives (using the classic definition) are scared into choosing moderate change because the presence of radicals makes them prefer moderation as a defense against those radicals, even if there may be a superficial appearance of correlation that you exploit to make that claim.

  53. BOC????? For some reason, all this time I’d imagined Jennifer as younger than me – I’m 41 and BOC just reeks of bad 70s vibe to me. Jennifer, Jennifer, Jennifer…I wholeheartedly agree with everything you’ve said about Dworkin so far today, tho.

  54. Dan, so most people embrace the *old* feminist agenda of equal rights but not the new one because of Dworkin? Again, depending on what this new agenda is (you didn’t define it as you did the *old* one), this may not be a bad thing at all.

    Again, to keep the record straight, I consider Dworkin’s philosophy (as I understand it) ridiculous and risable. And I recognize that her campaign against pornography was harmful and vile. But I suspect the degree of vehemence towards her reflects certain buttons having been pushed by her mere words more than anything genuinely harmful that she did.

  55. Stubby-
    Yes, yes, I’m still younger than you, but that doesn’t mean I can’t like BOC, especially when the concert is free. “Take Me Away” is a great song. Bear in mind I belong to the first generation of Americans to groove on their parent’s music as well as their own. That, by the way, is why Generation X is so fucked up–because when we were still too young to even pronounce the letters “L” and “R” we were singing along with our parents’ Black Sabbath albums. “Iwon Man wives again!”

    Fyodor, saying that Andrea Dworkin wasn’t so bad because she didn’t cause much real harm is kind of like saying Al-Qaeda’s not so bad because they haven’t nuked New York City–it’s only from lack of opportunity, not lack of desire to do so.

  56. By the way, if Stevo’s still here, I’d like to say that the BOC song which best expresses my feelings about Dworkin’s demise isn’t “Don’t Fear the Raper (sic)” but “Go, Go, Godzilla.” Even if the word “go” wasn’t actually in the title.

  57. On top of that, I have it from a reliable source that she has to eat ookie cookies in hell for all eternity. So all those vengeful folks out there have that thought to keep them warm at night.

    If there is an afterlife where justice is practiced. Dworkin would be cloned 71 times. She and her clones would then become the 72 virgins promised to a suicide bomber.

  58. Jennifer,

    At this point I am sincerely curious. What bad things did she want to do besides censor pornography (in which she was obviously not alone)? Castrate all males? Sow animosity between the sexes? Have all women be lesbians? I guess I wouldn’t take her threat in any of those regards nearly so seriously as I would take Al Qaeda’s intent on wreaking death and destruction on numerous innocents. There’s probably some guy somewhere in a straightjacket who wants desperately to kill all life on earth and who even succeeds ocassionally in spitting on his nut-house attendent. I doubt I’d work up much of a hate against such a fellow. But really, I’m not saying this as a challenge but as genuine curiousity (and I don’t feel like reading her stuff), what terrible and bad things did she want to do besides censor pornography?

  59. Eric the 5b,

    Has anyone on this thread defended Dworkin besides joe? I question the degree of animosity, but that’s hardly defending her. And allow me to show my cards. I remember when Bill Clinton criticized talk show hosts for whipping up anti-government hysteria after an avid listener to one such host reacting to the host’s call to take your arms to Washington or some such by going to the White House and shooting off a gun, many on the right (and I believe at Reason) were LIVID that Clinton should draw such a connection and criticize people engaging in free speech, even though I don’t think he ever spoke of any legislation. I’m trying to take a middle-road but consistent take on the matter of the weight of words. Sure, they matter. But let’s not lose sight that they’re merely words.

  60. Oh and Jennifer,

    I hope the show and the after-show went well! 🙂

  61. Fyodor,
    Alas, I was too tired to be brutally raped after the concert; that had to wait until Saturday morning. I’ll say this much for my boyfriend: when he objectifies and degrades me, at least he waits until I’m in the mood for such things.

    As I said on this and the last Dworkin thread, I despise her in part because she took something I firmly believe in–equality between the sexes (especially since I’m of the gender which traditionally got the short end of the stick)–and turned it into a goddamned cartoon. If I were a black person, I’d probably feel the same animosity toward those Nation of Islam loons who insist that EVERY black prisoner in the country–even the ones serving time for brutal rapes and murders–were actually political prisoners arrested solely because of their skin color.

    By the way, I’ve never been raped (despite all my joking on this thread) but I’ve known women who have been, and for their sakes I also despise a woman who would cheapen the suffering they felt by saying “Romance is rape embellished with meaningful looks.” Really, that’s not much different from saying “If a woman’s going to be raped anyway, she should just relax and enjoy it.”

  62. fyodor, you haven’t been the only one besides Joe in previous threads I’ve noticed.

  63. By the way, if Stevo’s still here, I’d like to say that the BOC song which best expresses my feelings about Dworkin’s demise isn’t “Don’t Fear the Raper (sic)” but “Go, Go, Godzilla.” Even if the word “go” wasn’t actually in the title.

    I did come back for a last look, and am chuckling sardonically.

    fyodor —

    I can’t personally work up a lot of personal hate toward Dworkin (especially at this point). However, I can see how folks can hate someone back who appears to have hated them, or hated the things they love, even if you consider Dworkin to have been relatively impotent to actually change anything.

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