Bush, State Dept., Teddy Kennedy All Agree…

… that Sinn Fein's Gerry Adams, who is visiting the U.S. for a little St. Paddy's Day green-sponging, can basically go to hell. State told Adams he better not do any fundraising here; Kennedy canceled a meeting; and Bush chose for his holiday Irish companionship the family of Robert McCartney, the Irish Catholic who was brutally stabbed to death outside a bar by some IRA thugs six weeks ago. What's the world coming to, when the political leader of a terrorist group can't raise money in the U.S. at will, or eat corned beef with the prez?

Comments

[metalgrid]

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter..

[too many steves]

As Bono once, less famously, said, "Fuck the Revolution!".

It is a brave new world.

[Gary Gunnels]

Matt Welch,

Its too bad the government doesn't crackdown on UDF and LVF fundraising in the U.S. as well. But as we are all aware, the IRA is the sole source of violence in Northern Ireland (not!). Unfortunately, the U.S. continues to have the Tom Clancy version of the "troubles."

[joe]

This is why carrots are useful in political affairs - when you take one away, it hurts just as much as a stick, but doesn't give the recipient any bloody shirts to waive.

Adams and McGuiness need to go home and knock some of the knuckleheads around.

[cdunlea]

...if they're really in charge, joe. Here's my SAT analogy:

Adams : Yasser Arafat
as
IRA : (insert appropriate extremist Islamic/Arab group here)

If the IRA are info organized bank heists and general gangsterism, then no political spokesman can rein them in. Basically, they are as much freedom fighers as the Yakuza.

[Matt Welch]

One of my favorite factoids in the world is that a 20-minute walk from where I sit, the beloved principal of the local Armenian elementary school is actually a convicted terrorist -- he set a bomb off outside the Turkish consulate in Pittsburgh or some damned place, and was pardoned by some soft-on-Armenians judge in Glendale....

And yes, yes, yes, all you terrible alcoholics, I'm well aware of the complexities of the Troubles, and the horribleness of the redcoats, and the lovely chemical reaction when Bailey's is mixed with Jameson's, and blabbity blabbity blo. None of which makes killing innocent civilians any less "terrorist," nor the Adams-spurning any less appropriate, in my opinion.

[Gary Gunnels]

None of which makes killing innocent civilians any less "terrorist," nor the Adams-spurning any less appropriate, in my opinion.

Who exactly are you arguing against here Welch? Has your brain slipped the tracks or what?

[Matt Welch]

GG -- Answers: Yes (to your second question), and I'm arguing against anyone who would misinterpret my post as indicating anything like "the IRA is the sole source of violence in Northern Ireland." Also, I don't want any of my friends on the Hoboken police force to be angry at me....

[MP]

c'mon Gary, it seems pretty clear to me that Matt is happy that all of the political big shots in the US are telling Gerry to go f*ck himself.

[Diarmid Logan]

Actually for all the fuss that the media is making over Sinn Fein and the Provisional IRA, it does not seem to be adversely affecting Sinn Fein in Ireland. In a recent election in Meath, Sinn Fein actually increased their percentage of the vote. Also, George W. Bush is hated in Ireland which will mean that his actions against Sinn Fein will probably have the effect of increasing support for the party in Ireland.

[joe]

Diarmid,

"George W. Bush is hated in Ireland which will mean that his actions against Sinn Fein will probably have the effect of increasing support for the party in Ireland."

Which make the actions of Ted Kennedy and Peter King particularly important. This is not just a Bush thing.

[Shawn Smith]

So when are we going to start rounding up all the terrorists with Irish-sounding names? Should I be looking to get out of the country? Or will I simply be on some "watch list" that I never heard of?

[Diarmid Logan]

Which make the actions of Ted Kennedy and Peter King particularly important. This is not just a Bush thing.

Actually I don't think too many Irish people will be concerned by the actions of Kennedy or King. King is largely a nobody while Kennedy is a disgusting drunk.

[Diarmid Logan]

So when are we going to start rounding up all the terrorists with Irish-sounding names?

I'm sure that if Bush thought he could get away with it he would.

Or will I simply be on some "watch list" that I never heard of?

Who knows? Maybe one already exists.

[kevrob]

At some point Irish-Americans who act on romantic notions about the Provos and other splinters of the IRA are going to either wise up or die off. None of the "official" I-A groups I ever have contact with - our local cultural center, the IrishFest foundation, fraternal organizations - tolerate fundraising "for the Cause", and go out of their way to support pro-peace efforts. The teen choir and rugby team from Omagh have visited, the Ulster Project, a summer-in-the-U.S. program for kids from NI keeps going, and, the singing of rebel songs aside, anyone who openly supports the gunmen is seen as a right idjit. Maybe some old codgers still pass the hat for Gerry's Kids at local taverns, but I haven't seen it. Maybe that still goes on in Boston and NY.

Kevin

[Diarmid Logan]

Kevin:

It is not Irish-Americans who join the Provisional IRA nor are they the ones who vote for Sinn Fein. Whether you like it or not, Sinn Fein gets more votes from Catholics in the north of Ireland than any other political party and that includes the SDLP. And the Provisional IRA will continue to exist as long as young people in the north of Ireland want to join it.

[SPD]

And if the British had kept their grubby little hands off of Ireland in the first place, Gerry Adams would still be a bartender today.

[Stevo Darkly]

- So when are we going to start rounding up all the terrorists with Irish-sounding names?

- I'm sure that if Bush thought he could get away with it he would.

Kind of embarassing to see Nancy Reagan being loaded onto a boxcar.

[kevrob]

Diarmid:

When did I ever say any USAns were joining the PIRA? Matt's post specifically referred to Adams raising funds on our shores. Sure, SF may have overtaken SDLP in the hearts of the six counties' Nationalists and/or Catholics, but that is irrelevant to the question of whether the republicans' political arm is in cahoots with its "military" wing.

Seriously, if I was a voter in NI, I'd be hard-pressed to pick any party to back. Sinn Fein seems to love Marxist blather, SDLP are social democrats, the Unionists are as bad in their own way as the republicans, so who does that leave? I think that, as a Merkin who doesn't want to be labeled a Plastic Paddy, I'll stay out of it.

Kevin
(wishes the posting software supported fadas)

[Mo]

Shwan,
Mustapha O'Reilly is in deep shit.

[Diarmid Logan]

Kevin:

From your original post I got the impression that you were claiming that it was Irish-Americans who were keeping Sinn Fein and the Provisional IRA in existence. The problem in the north of Ireland is British colonialism. The Protestants are descended from British colonists and use oppression to keep the indigenous Irish Catholic population in submission. The Provisional IRA came into existence to fight this colonial oppression. If you want to see an end to IRA violence then the most effective way of achieving this goal is to end British colonialism in the north of Ireland.

[Diarmid Logan]

Kind of embarassing to see Nancy Reagan being loaded onto a boxcar.

She is a WASP so there is little chance of that happening.

[Gary Gunnels]

Of course we know that the cease-fire in the 1990s, etc. was caused by Bush's invasion of Iraq. 🙂

[PintofStout]

And we all know the violence would be much worse if Kerry were elected.

-Do it for the children!

I just thought I'd throw those out there also.

[PintofStout]

There has to be a point--I'm not saying it is here with the IRA, but this is a good time to bring it up--when fighting oppression and tyranny has to NOT be considered terrorism. Killing innocent civilians would definately qualify as "terrorism," but the running definition today seems to anyone opposing with some force the ideals of the Bush administration and big oppressive government across the globe. Seems a bit broad to me.

[Nathan]

From my comment on Fark about the same topic:

Gerry Adams and Iain Paisley need to battle Thunderdome Style, except "Two Men Enter, One Man Leaves" gets changed to "Two Men Enter, The survivor gets barbiqued and sereved during the evening festivities."

I really, Really, REALLY despise both sides of that pointless farking fight and I especially hate the asswipe, clueless 3rd generation "My great great grandfather came from the old country" morons (or anyone else for that matter) who continue to fund them. DIE you miserable sods.

[kevrob]

If you want to see an end to IRA violence then the most effective way of achieving this goal is to end British colonialism in the north of Ireland. - Diarmid

If, on Thursday evening, I get a large circle of friends to join hands (OK, symbolically, if not physically. Those pints won't drink themselves!) and click our heels and chant Brits out! three times, with our eyes closed tight, when we open them Ireland will still be a divided Island, and NI will still be a divided society. I'm sure some of the Ojibwa-speakers where I live blame their problems on white-eyes colonialism.

Look, I'm as up on "1000 years of oppression" as anybody. I even know about that former king of Leinster, who invited the Norman "English" in, to settle his rivals' hash, name of Diarmuid, oddly enough. The nationalists have every right to negotiate their way out of the UKofGB&NI, and good luck to them. An armed strategy, however, ignores the demographics of NI. A slow strategy of power-sharing that grew out of the Good Friday accords, each side eventually convincing their counterparts by deeds that they could be trusted in civil government, made more sense. This may all have been derailed by recent outrages. (And yes, I know the UDF-types perpetrate them, too.)

I think that NI residents who want to remain in the UK don't really have anything to fear from an eventual return of the six counties to the Republic, but such a change would result in a new political alignment unpredictable for all, and even people who aren't rabidly partisan can fear uncertainty.

I'd bet that the PIRA/RIRA/CIRA boyos would be among the most disgruntled under an all-Ireland Republic. Bereft of their justification for existence, they'd be forced to either get honest jobs, turn into a revolutionary group aimed at replacing the bourgeoise Dublin regime, or transform into pure organized crime.

Kevin

[John Thacker]

The problem in the north of Ireland is British colonialism. The Protestants are descended from British colonists and use oppression to keep the indigenous Irish Catholic population in submission. The Provisional IRA came into existence to fight this colonial oppression. If you want to see an end to IRA violence then the most effective way of achieving this goal is to end British colonialism in the north of Ireland.

And exactly how far back do we have to go in this chain of invasions and colonialism? (Naturally the UDF itself would argue that it came into existence to prevent the Ulstermen from being forcibly incorporated into the Republic of Ireland.) Is there a place on the globe where some "indigenous people" could not demand an end to colonialism? Can we not at some point demand an end to these score-settlings from ages past?

[Gary Gunnels]

PintofStout,

Well, sometimes the effects of oppression can be long-lived. Catholics in Northern Ireland were essentially treated until the 1970s like black people were in the U.S. (of course the Republic of Ireland also discriminated against Protestants in typical tit for tat fashion).

[Gary Gunnels]

John Thacker,

Well, until Catholics were treated as something more than third-class citizens, it was more than mere historical score-settling from ages past; unless you consider a decade or two "ages past."

[PintofStout]

Gary,
Are you saying they are killing other civilians and not just military/government targets because they are bitter?

I was really trying to bring up the line between terrorism and freedom fighter (or fighter for freedom). Does this distinction change depending on what side of the line you look from? I was trying not to make it Irish-specific or specific in any manner. The accepted label of terrorist, depending on the circle, could be an anti-war protester here in the US according to the brownshirts. So where should the objective line be?

[Joe]

Shawn, Diarmid

That's so true. Random people with Arab-sounding names are being put on no-fly lists.

I mean, hating Bush is one thing, but being a f***ing idiot is, or should be, another.

[PintofStout]

And exactly how far back do we have to go in this chain of invasions and colonialism? (Naturally the UDF itself would argue that it came into existence to prevent the Ulstermen from being forcibly incorporated into the Republic of Ireland.) Is there a place on the globe where some "indigenous people" could not demand an end to colonialism? Can we not at some point demand an end to these score-settlings from ages past?

This seems to be the best argument for why these arbitrary lines denoting power and control are bunk, and we should tend toward more voluntary, smaller associations without a state.

[joe]

So Reasonoids, at what point did you have Diarmid Logan pegged as an IRA supporter? I had him at his second post. The "disgusting drunk" comment about Kennedy could come from An Phlobacht. It's the type of language they hurl at Irish-Americans who are broadly (Irish) Republicans, but who aren't Sinn Fein partisans. "Green Belch" Irishmen is another term you see. The point is to make Irish-Americans who are proud of their heritage feel inauthentic if they don't stick up for "the oldest party in Ireland."

Diarmid's right about one thing though - most people in Ireland won't give two shits one way or the other about Kennedy and King. But as you can see, a tiny number of them will care very much.

[Eric the .5b]

Snubbed the guy? Meaning he got into the country?

I thought we had a no-fly list for this sort of thing...

[Eric the .5b]

So Reasonoids, at what point did you have Diarmid Logan pegged as an IRA supporter?

So it's OK to deem people supporters of terrorism if they cast aspersions on GWB and Ted Kennedy? 😉 Damn, that's the secret incredient the Bushies have been missing.

[kevrob]

The Protestants are descended from British colonists... Diarmid

Some of those colonists were Scots, some of whose ancestors had emigrated ages ago from Ireland to Alba, displacing the native Picts from that country's western shores. For a time the Dal Riada even acted as a province of Ireland for the purposes of holding the rotating high-kingship. It could be argued that some of the Scots planted in Ulster were merely returning home.

I know that is a cute argument, and it doesn't answer for the lowlanders and English who participated in the various plantations over the years, but the history behind Irish nationality is a bit more complicated than one would find in the pages of IRA propaganda. I even know of Catholics from Norn Iron who worry about leaving the UK because of the business ramifications. Now that the Republic is using the Euro, the old relationship between the punt and the pound sterling is gone (think the US and Canadian dollars). Ireland is more enthusiastic about the EU than Britain, too.

What I'm saying is that these relationships are more complicated than the mythology learned at one's immigrant Granda's knee.

Kevin

[Barry P.]

Kev: thanks for making the post I was going to make. Let's not forget that the word "Scots" was brought over to what is now called "Scotland" by the Dal Riata. "Scotti" is Latin for "Irish", coming from the name of the Queen of the Milesians, IIRC.

Maybe Dairmid seems keen on the idea of repatriating people to the homelands of their ancestors. So, where exactly does that logic stop? Do we send all of the non-Celtic Brits back to Normandy, Saxony and Denmark? Do we send the Celt-descendents back to Spain, or Romania? Should the "Irish" be sent back to Scythia? Should all humans be forcewd to move back to Ethiopia (if that's where homo sapiens originated.)

Trying to kick the protestants out of NI was a non-starter. Legitimate grievances of any opppresed minority can only be solved by political, and not military measures.

Fact is, whatever legitimacy the IRA may have ever had as "freedom fighters" is forever gone - now they're nothing more than a shamrock La Cosa Nostra with a superficial marxist foundation. They're more interested in running protection rackets and peddling drugs and guns than anything remotely political.

[Rick Barton]

Terrorists are frequently welcomed here with open arms and big smiles by our government. They're called, "Heads of State".