Great Questions of Modern Jurisprudence
My brother sends me this story with the message, "Be careful what you throw away":
An appeals court said a man can press a claim for emotional distress after learning a former lover had used his sperm to have a baby. But he can't claim theft, the ruling said, because the sperm were hers to keep.
According to the AP, the woman "secretly kept semen after they had oral sex, then used it to get pregnant." The plaintiff learned his sperm's fate almost two years later, when he was hit with a paternity suit.
I'm not sure what a libertarian theory of property would have to say about the disputed jism. Lockeans should note that in this case, the mixing came nine months before the labor.
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And to think that just yesterday there was a post on how a feminist thinks it's impossible for a woman to give oral sex!
Well, this woman didn't do it very well. She didn't swallow.
The real question is if she can later sue for child payments.
I thought a paternity suit is what I wear when I'm trying to become a father.
kwais, I'm pretty sure she already has to the tune of $800 a week
checked it, yeah
Nearly two years after their affair, Irons filed a paternity suit and Phillips was ordered to pay $800 a month in child support, said Irons' attorney, Enrico Mirabelli.
Phillips then sued Irons, claiming her actions caused him nausea and headaches and robbed him of sleep and his appetite. He is haunted by "feelings of being trapped in a nightmare," court papers state.
thats from
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2005/02/24/national/a095250S07.DTL
fuck dude that sucks. From now on remember to check to make sure she swallows.
Isn't jism spelled with a z?
That was classic, Jesse.
I was actually discussing this case with friends of mine at law school. It's uncomfortably reminiscent of what we've just covered in my property class. A friend of mine offered a clever argument for this guy: If he gave "his" sperm to his lady-friend as a matter of property, then the subsequent conception is not in any sense "his" and neither is the baby. That dovetails nicely with the obvious fact that he was not responsible for conception. It's rather like donating to a sperm bank--as far as I know, you don't have any obligations to the children you subsequently father.
Of course, this only gets him out of paternal obligations; he can't prevent her from conceiving a child against his will.
Well, if the sperm was a "gift" then shouldn't that absolve Phillips of responsibility for child support payments? As your brother points out, I throw all sorts of stuff away, and I do believe that once it arrives at the curb it becomes my "gift to the world," if you will. If someone hurts themselves, or attempts to impregnate themselves, or hurts themselves while trying to impregnate themselves using my garbage, I would assume it would be their own fault.
The SFGate article suggests that the whole...affair...is probably even more sordid than the first article suggests. I would only note that if his suit succeeds, I'm sure I can come up with a list of people who have given me "feelings of being trapped in a nightmare," too. Cable TV and talk radio, watch out!
Anon
You'd think that requesting a BJ instead of regular intercourse would be read as a signal that he in no way wanted this woman to bear his children, but nooooooooooooooo....
He shouldn't be held legally liable for the kid at all. It isn't his fault that it exists.
My friend said that he heard her lawyer on Tom Leykis and the lawyer said the guy was full of crap and they had intercourse as well. Not sure what the deal is, but this is f'in odd.
"Wow, that was great."
"Mmm-hmm."
"Whoa, look, at the time! I gotta go."
"Mmmm."
"Bye bye, hon."
"Mmm-mmm."
I've heard of this happening. If it's a "he said, she said", I would think they'd do a paternity test and figure the guy was lyin'.
I've known guys who messed up their lives with cocaine and heroin. I've known guys who've done hard time for armed robbery. Nothin' screws up your life like getting mixed up with a crazy woman.
...God save me from crazy women. somethin' about me seems to draw 'em to me--it's like sharks smellin' blood in the water.
... I recently read that the nerves from the back of those distinctive pits on pit vipers join the optic nerve before they hit the brain, which suggests that they see heat as a luminous thing. I think that's the way crazy women see me. They pick me out of the crowd at work, on the strand, in school, in a restaurant...
It's gotten so I don't even pay attention to the flying monkeys anymore. When one ex-girlfriend's monkeys start fighting another ex-girlfriend's monkeys, they tend to cancel each other out anyway. Someday they'll lose my trail, 'til then, I'll just have to keep changin' my number and watchin' out for falling banana peels.
really, now, why should we assume she's lying and he isn't? it's actually not as easy to get pregnant as some think, and you're a damn sight likelier to do so having repeated unprotected intercourse than you are surreptitously transferring semen (already being digested by the enzymes in your mouth, let's note) to your vagina on one single occasion. Occam's razor says that if she's pregnant with his child they did the deed sometime, his Clintonian and high-minded oral sex protests notwithstanding...
"really, now, why should we assume she's lying and he isn't?"
That's my point.
It's actually not as easy to get pregnant as some think, and you're a damn sight likelier to do so having repeated unprotected intercourse than you are surreptitously transferring semen (already being digested by the enzymes in your mouth, let's note) to your vagina on one single occasion."
Thank you for that--really. But you gotta watch out for that post-break up activity. I mean, it seems to have happened in this case--I wouldn't be surprised if something like this happened in the Robert Blake case too.
"Occam's razor says that if she's pregnant with his child they did the deed sometime, his Clintonian and high-minded oral sex protests notwithstanding.."
O' Razor doesn't apply in some of these cases. The least complicated explanation for why crazy women do the things they do is a Gordian Knot of intrigue, instinct, daytime television and insanity.
OK, maybe I don't understand that because I'm not crazy enough 😉
Just think of the new market for title insurance.
If Shaquille O'Neal uses a condom, then throws it in the trash, and takes the trash out, then a woman goes into his trash and impregnates herself with the sperm, are there grounds for a paternity suit?
A legal jism schism in the making.
I heard the lawyer on Leykis and he agreed that if his client did what is alleged in the suit, she is not entitled to child payments and should be tried for fraud.
But he maintains that the child was conceived in the traditional fashion and this guy is trying a novel approach to getting out of child support payments.
"Mmm-mmm."
Good one, joe.
I also find this story hard to swallow (heh). Getting pregnant is difficult enough sometimes with an actual penis. The odds with surreptitiously regurgitated sperm loaded into a turkey baster and self-administered crouching tiger style is a tall tale indeed.
So the guy's story fails Occam's razor, not to mention Popperian falsifiability.
"She sucked the sperm right out of my balls while I was sleeping, your honor!"
That said, if it *is* true. Sucks to be him.
JB,
Yes, in that scenario, the trash diving mother can get child support payments. Child support suits are brought by the child, not the mother, and since the child has not done anything wrong, he/she should not be punished for the actions of the mother.
In fact, part of the NBA orientation classes that all rookies go through advises them to flush used condoms to prevent this from happening.
Belle,
I don't believe it said whether or not the semen actually entered her mouth, though I suppose it most likely did, but there's always the possibility of a facial or whatever.
The woman is a doctor, so it is likely that she has access to instruments less crude than a 'turkey baster,' that said this is an odd case.
You guys are so funny--you actually believe this guy's incredible story based on nothing more than his say-so? He sounds like a wackaloon.
Serafina,
You bring up a good point. It would seem that the more frightened we are, the more likely we are to believe ridiculous things.
...I, for one, had serious insomnia last night. I'm thinkin' back to all those months ago--please tell me she didn't spit my boys up, and now they're sittin' next to the ice cream!
I suspect we're all susceptable to believing that our worst fears are about to be realized--it's certainly more difficult to be rational in the face of fear.
When my wife and I were trying to have our first baby we went to a fertility doc. 1 year of trying did what I had previously thought impossible... it ruined sex.
Anyway... to find out what the problem was I had to visit the dark room with dirty books and donate. A sign on the wall specifically stated NO ORAL SEX- because of the saliva.
SO, I think HE'S full of crap. Nice try though.
The point isn't how she pulled off the, er mechanicals of this deed. Evidently she did, and in doing so, lied enough to cause understandable and severe emotional pain, conceived without consent or disclosure, and, or course, made it pay.
Child support is a perfected system for whacked loons like this who get knocked up out of a sick combo of hate, misplaced maternal instinct, and greed, aided by a system gone completely mad in wrecking fathers (along with wrecking men who aren't fathers to a statistically significant degree, actually) because it's really about the money. And power.
Sound sexist? Nope. What's sexist are the stats supporting my claim.
IOW, the gender feminist pendulum has swung far and wide of equality. Be careful.
...God save me from crazy women. somethin' about me seems to draw 'em to me--it's like sharks smellin' blood in the water.
Ken - it is Ken, right? What are you doing this weekend?
Urban legends.
(I just want to see if this will post. On another thread, I got told my comment would be vetted.)
The only fair solution to this quandary, for everyone involved, is to cut that baby in half.
Ken - it is Ken, right? What are you doing this weekend?
Pay no attention to that skank, Ken. I want you more and am willing to carve your name into my skin.
So now we have to snowball just to keep out of court?