She was 21 (and already saving for retirement!) when I left Galveston
Reader Russ Dewey sends in this Chicago Tribune story about the "Galveston plan," in which three Texas counties withdrew from Social Security in 1981, and transferred the retirement taxes of county employees into private retirement accounts. Results:
The bad news is that the verdict is decidedly inconclusive. No one here can agree whether county retirees are better off than they would have been had they stayed with the Social Security system--a dilemma that precisely mirrors the emerging complexities of the national Social Security debate.
"I didn't come out ahead," said Evelyn Robison, who was the Galveston District Court clerk for 13 years before her retirement in 2004. "My chief deputy did not come out ahead. My bookkeeper did not come out ahead. I personally don't know anyone who has retired who came out ahead."
Nonsense, countered Rick Gornto, a Houston financial manager who designed the alternate retirement plans for Galveston, Brazoria and Matagorda Counties and still runs them.
"In every case we ever looked at, people end up better off in our plan," said Gornto, president of First Financial Benefits.
It's probably inevitable that this will be looked at as a test case for Social Security privatization, and that is probably a shame. For one, a bunch of public-tit lifers don't exactly make an ideal data set for how all American workers will handle their own investments. For another, these people were not allowed to put any of their money into stocks: The plan limited them to dull stuff like bank notes and annuities (making it, as far as I can tell, a mirror of the conservative way Social Security invests its "trust fund" in the first place). You'd have to be an absolute genius to have been in the stock market since 1981 and not be substantially ahead of whatever Social Security would provide.
But most seriously, if we're going to measure the worthiness of Social Security privatization by the degree to which a positive result can be guaranteed for all, the whole idea will never get off the ground. It's true: If you let people invest according to their own lights, some will do better than others, and some won't do well at all. (I'm not being callous toward those people who don't make out: I have an uncanny ability to turn a dollar into a dime whenever I invest, so I'm nobody to scoff.) The mixed results of this experiment neither prove nor disprove the wisdom of privatizing; they're what we should be expecting, and are also a strong argument for expanding, not contracting, the range of options you have for investing your own money.
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Reason roolz.
So let me get this straight: a bunch of people who invested in the plan think it's a ripoff, but the guy who manages the funds says it's not. Hmmmm....
"For one, a bunch of public-tit lifers don't exactly make an ideal data set for how all American workers will handle their own investments." Uh, yeah, because school administrators, City Clerks, and cops are, prima facie, less capable of managing their investments than the average American worker.
"But most seriously, if we're going to measure the worthiness of Social Security privatization by the degree to which a positive result can be guaranteed for all, the whole idea will never get off the ground." Right on. The value of Social Security is the guarantee. The economic argument for privatization, once you get past the dishonest fiscal arguments and gladhanding from fund managers, is that it is wise to trade security for all for the extra wealth that some will accrue through heightened risk.
And what is the argument for not allowing me to make that trade using my own money, if I choose to do so?
I, for one, am far too stupid to make my own provisions for the future because I went to public schools. At least that's what Mrs. Prole says.
She, however, has made a killing with XOM and CMX.
What can the working man do, other than tip his cap to his social betters?
... The value of Social Security is the guarantee ...
What guarantee? I haven't signed any contract with anyone saying that I will get any money if / when I turn 65. Just because there's a perception that SS is a savings plan, doesn't make it so.
Any politician who votes to "cut back benefits" will probably be voted out of office in the following election, but how will that affect a lame duck? Also, it's certainly possible (maybe even probable) that some sort of means testing will be passed in the next few decades, before I start receiving SS benefits. I can also easily imagine that the government would consider real estate (like the house you live in) to be a near-liquid asset when it comes to doing the means testing. Own your house, get nothing from the government, and you're too old to do much about it.
It seems to me that under this system, if you play by the rules, forego immediate pleasure for future savings, and generally behave yourself, you're nothing but a chump. That's not the kind of society I want to live in.
"And what is the argument for not allowing me to make that trade using my own money, if I choose to do so?"
I wrote "economic argument." The philosophical/ideological argument is as you state it.
The idiotic "You're an elitist" argument can be used to defend any position on any issue, Prole.
Large majorities of Americans want there to be a Social Security guarantee, not an investment plan or nothing. The only groups that support the elimination of Social Security are the very wealthy and Wall Street. But I guess Super Prole knows better than most Americans what's good for them. Why do you insist on imposing the plan your rich coastal economic elite buddies want, against the will of the majority of hardworking Americans? Why makes you think you know better than they do what the best way to secure their retirement is?
Shawn Smith, I will enter into a contract to pay you fifty cents on the dollar for the income the Social Security Adminstration says it will give you when you retire, based on your last statement. That's right, whatever your Social Security statement says you will every month when you retire, I will sign a contract to give you, upon your retirement, half of that, in exchange for your signing a contract that says you will sign your Social Security checks over to me when they start arriving.
Interested?
Joe,
I will sign a contract with you. You reimburse me now for the FICA tax withheld and I will sign over every SS check I receive.
joe,
...in exchange for your signing a contract that says you will sign your Social Security checks over to me when they start arriving.
(emphasis mine) I just might take you up on that offer, joe, if what you mean is that even if the checks don't start arriving, for any reason besides my death, you still write your checks for the agreed upon amount. Oh, I'll need some assurance besides IOUs written by you to yourself that you will actually have the assets to meet that obligation.
My point is that in order to meet the obligations that the national government has, the money to pay "my" SS checks is going to have to come from somewhere. Right now there is no money being "saved" to cover those future obligations.
According to the 2004 1040 instruction booklet on page 74, SS, Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps, temporary assistance for needy families, supplemental security income, and related programs consumed 51% of the national government's outlays in FY2003. Personal income taxes and Social Security, Medicare, unemployment, and other retirement taxes accounted for 70% of the national government's income. 17% of its income was from borrowing (I guess that means selling bonds on open markets.) Corporate income taxes amounted to a whopping 6% of "income," so there just isn't much more money to come from that sector.
It is likely that means testing will be the easiest political thing to do to cut down on the SS payments two to three decades from now, when I am scheduled to start receiving those checks. The FICA taxes are projected to be not large enough to cover those expenditures, which means that the statements I'm getting now are unrealistic projections. So I'm in the unenviable position of stealing money from the children of today so that I don't have to work thirty years from now, or knowing thirty years from now that I've been a chump for most of my life. Bleeeaaaaah. 😛
I'm serious Joe. If you pay all my FICA taxes, I will give you every SS cheque.
Nope, twba, we start paying at the same time - your retirement. If you are so certain the program won't be there, fifty cents on the dollar puts you way ahead.
"Right now there is no money being "saved" to cover those future obligations." There is also no money being saved to fund the Department of Defense in 2042. Yet somehow, my psychic powers indicate that the Army will still exist.
joe sez, "There is also no money being saved to fund the Department of Defense in 2042"
Nobody is pretending that money is being saved to fund the Department of Defense in 2042. Everybody knows that appropriations will be made for DOD that year.
Plenty of people (including you) are pretending that money is being "saved" to fund SS.
Your example shows how mendacious this pretense is, but you seem unable to interpret your own analogy logically.
"Plenty of people (including you) are pretending that money is being "saved" to fund SS."
No, not really, though plenty of people are pretending that plenty of people are so pretending.
So, after reading my parallel with a government function that is absolutely not pre-funded, a function I brought up for the purpose of drawing attention to the fact that it is not pre-funded, you accuse my of pretending that Social Security is pre-funded, then you accuse me of having trouble interpretting analogies.
That's funny.
You're the one advocating the continuation of the fraud.
I should have said:
You're the one advocating the continuation of the fraud, but then since the "reform" we get will likely be just as big a fraud it hardly matters.
...There is also no money being saved to fund the Department of Defense in 2042...
Well, at least there's a Constitutional requirement for the "common Defense" of the nation. I don't know of any comparably direct Constitutional requirement for SS. "General Welfare" is too vague to say that it provides the justification for SS. If SS is going to be around in a form comparable to today, we're going to need a whole lot more taxpayers to fund it, or a significantly higher percentage of the nation's wealth being filtered through government fingers.
SS, Medicare, and Medicaid, as they are currently implemented, and making reasonable assumptions for population growth, average lifespans, and comparable taxation levels, will start to make our "measly" $0.4 trillion deficit look like pocket change. So, are you saying that our kids and grandkids should just get used to forking over half their paychecks to the national government? That sounds pretty selfish to me.
Look, I don't particularly like Bush's plan to "overhaul" SS. I voted for one of his opponents, and some of the statements that he and his followers make scare me. I'm a bit more relieved that some Republican and even some Democratic politicians are letting people know that there is no "savings account" for SS taxes, and that current taxes are being used to fund current beneficiaries. I would prefer that people get used to the idea that if they want to have a reasonable retirement, they need to start saving early, or not be such jerks that they can count on family and/or friends for support. But hey, that's just me, and other people certainly have different opinions.
"Well, at least there's a Constitutional requirement for the "common Defense" of the nation."
Which was considered met, for decades, by the states' militias.
"If SS is going to be around in a form comparable to today, we're going to need a whole lot more taxpayers to fund it, or a significantly higher percentage of the nation's wealth being filtered through government fingers."
If the economy over the next four decades grows at the same rate as the average since the end of the Civil War, or even a little slower, Social Security will be fully funded without any changes to the benefit or revenue structure. Note, I'm not cherry picking some period of extraordinary growth, but the last 140 years. During this period, GDP growth averaged 3.4% per annum. By way of comparison, during Q4 of 2004 (which is not recalled as a particularly extraordinary boom), the economy grew at an annual rate of 3.75%. It is probably prudent to take some steps to make certain that our fiscal house is in order _just in case_ we go through an extraordinary period of economic stagnation, but the "crisis in Social Security" is about as real as the threat of Iraqi WMDs.
I can respect your philosophical argument against a public retirement program. I disagree with your ideology, but recognize that your position is based on a principled belief about the proper role of government. Let's put the bogus "crisis" fraud aside, and have _that_ conversation, ok?
Joe,
So because Mrs. Prole is smart and successful she should be coerced into to paying to support people she doesn't even know under threat of imprisonment?
Maybe the feckless wouldn't be so feckless in the absence of the welfare state. Now we've got the worsening situation where everyone is trying to live off of everyone else - people and business. I call them all parasites. You want charity, go to a church.
I thought that you believed in liberty?
"Maybe the feckless wouldn't be so feckless in the absence of the welfare state."
Or maybe - just maybe - the size of your bank account isn't an accurate measure of your moral and social value. Exhibit A: George W. Bush.
"I thought that you believed in liberty?"
Your soul. Your mind. Your body. Your money.
One of these things is not like the other. One of these things just doesn't belong. One of these things is not like the other. Can you tell me which one by the time I finish this song?
"since the "reform" we get will likely be just as big a fraud it hardly matters."
this is a good encapsulation of the social security "debate" as it stands. ("debate" is to be read in the same funny voice "private" is in this context)
and i have to heartily disagree with joe - everyone i talk to under the age of 30 is not only convinced that social security will not exist for their retirement, but that there's something fundamentally rotten about it. i wouldn't take this so seriously if these folk weren't uniformly liberal, or at least of the NOTBUSH persuasion. weirdness.
The most telling point in the article is at the end.
"I get around $460 per month now, but under Social Security, I would have gotten $1,000," said Joyce Longcoy, who retired in 1998 after 23 years working for Galveston County. "They are putting this up to be a model for the rest of the country. Some model."
That $460 has no automatic cost of living increases and that amount is after a larger percentage of income going into the plan.
http://tinyurl.com/6z84v
Gary Denton
joe
The flaw in your analogy, by the way, is that in 2042 two workers will not be being taxed to pay the for the cost of two soldiers.
Keep your fingers in your ears saying "lalalalala, I don't hear this evil heresy against St Franklin's miracles".
the cost of two soldiers.
should read
the cost of of each soldier.
Your soul. Your mind. Your body. Your money.
One of these things is not like the other.
No they ARE all the same. They're all FUCKING MINE.
dhex
Not to worry. SS will be just fine.
It will just take superSwedish levels of taxation to maintain.
Oh wait a minute, the Swedes got tired of Swedish levels of taxation. 🙂
- SS estimates paying 73% of expected benefits, from which medicare b premium is deducted, using up the inflation adjustment included in SS. The tax laws for SS are not inflation adjusted, making after med b SS a fully income taxed fixed pension in the future.
I expect SS reform to simply codify the abve trend.
Nope, twba, we start paying at the same time - your retirement. If you are so certain the program won't be there, fifty cents on the dollar puts you way ahead.
I don't care to make any silly deals with you. My grandfathers died young and my father suffered a stroke at age 54. I am not sure I will live long enough to collect SS. I want the option to keep my earnings and spend while I'm still breathing. If I'm stuck with a genetic timebomb, why do you object to my desire to live for today? The future is unknown, but SS "reform" will probably involve higher taxes, lower payouts and higher retirement age. I want none of it. Give me liberty. Don't confiscate my earnings and make worthless promises.
Joe,
You're so generous, allowing me to breathe and think on my own.
I guess it's only fair that the product of my free use of my body and mind, my labor, is obligated to others in an amount to be determined by the vote of those others.
Thanks ever so much.
SP
"The flaw in your analogy, by the way, is that in 2042 two workers will not be being taxed to pay the for the cost of [each soldier]."
Damn, if only there was some mechanisim by which eacy worker produced more and more wealth for the same amount of labor as the economy changed over time. Let me get to work on that.
"everyone i talk to under the age of 30 is not only convinced that social security will not exist for their retirement, but that there's something fundamentally rotten about it." If I were convinced of the former, I'd feel pretty strongly that the latter was true as well. Since the former isn't true, and since awareness of this fact is becoming more widespread as the debate continues, I expect most will come around on the latter. Particularly since they have a tendency to turn on those they've discovered have by lying to them.
"They're all FUCKING MINE." I've heard rurmors that there are principles other than ego. You might want to look into that.
Damn, if only there was some mechanisim by which eacy worker produced more and more wealth for the same amount of labor as the economy changed over time. Let me get to work on that.
I'm somehow doubting that mechanism works very well at the levels of taxation that will be required to sustain SS in its current form. 🙂
joe
By that reasoning no government waste or excessive spending is a problem. We'll just grow into it, right.