Driving While Elderly
A study reported in the journal Human Factors finds "young drivers' reaction times slow to that of a 70-year-old when they operate a vehicle while talking on a cell phone." This is meant to be an indictment of cell phones, of course, but it could also be taken as an argument against letting the elderly drive. They're just as impaired as a teenager talking on a cell phone!
The Washington Times story also mentions a 2003 study in which "the researchers concluded that motorists who talk on cell phones are more impaired than drunken drivers"--by which the Times means drivers with a blood alcohol content of .08 percent or more. Again, the comparison is meant to show how dangerous cell phones are, but it could be turned around to question the fairness and wisdom of setting the legal BAC limit at .08 percent when it's perfectly legal in almost all jurisdictions to use a cell phone while driving, which seems to be more dangerous.
Even the few places with cell phone bans--New York, New Jersey, and D.C.--permit the use of hands-free phones. But the Human Factors study, consistent with earlier research, found that it's not holding the phone that's the problem so much as conversing with someone who's not in the car. Unlike a passenger, the person on the other end of the phone can't see what's going on and therefore can't help the driver pay attention by shutting up when appropriate or pointing out hazards.
In short, the law is wildly inconsistent in the way it treats driver impairment, explicitly prohibiting activities (driving while talking on a hand-held phone, driving with a 0.8 percent BAC) that are no more dangerous than those it permits (driving while elderly, driving while talking on a hands-free phone, driving under the influence of cold medicine). Either legislators don't pay attention to objective measures of impairment, or safety concerns are a cover for other motives (hatred of cell phones, disapproval of drinking). Or both.
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I wonder how many accidents are the result of "reaction times" versus poor decisions. Teenagers are strong on the first, weak on the second, while elderly are weak on the first, strong on the second.
I have seen figures that show that elderly drivers have fewer accidents than teenage drivers.
"Either legislators don't pay attention to objective measures of impairment, or safety concerns are a cover for other motives (hatred of cell phones, disapproval of drinking). Or both."
I'd say it's less of these things, and more of a "We must be seen doing something, anything!" sort of thing.
Sort of like how, after the Columbine massacre, the House met for an emergency session and decided that...schools must post the 10 commandments in the classroom.
I second Blogtheist. By now, cell phones are too pervasive to be hating them. We'd be hating ourselves. I suppose there may be a small faction of old farts who still abhore the new fangled gadgets and they may be part of a larger coalition that supports this legislation, but it's tough to see how there's enough of them to be the entire explanation. And the drive for government to "do something" when some trendy new problem has been identified is very powerful. In fact, I'd call it "palpable"! 🙂
From Driving Miss Daisy:
Daisy Werthan: You should have let me keep my old LaSalle. It never would've behaved this way and you know it.
Boolie Werthan: Mama, cars don't behave. They are behaved upon. Fact is, you demolished that Chrysler all by yourself.
Daisy Werthan: Say what you want, I know the truth.
Boolie Werthan: The truth is, you just cost the insurance company $2,700. You're a terrible risk. Nobody's gonna want to issue you a policy after this.
Daisy Werthan: You're just saying that to be hateful!
Boolie Werthan: OK. I am. I'm makin' it all up. Look out there in the driveway! Every insurance company in America is out there, waving their fountain pen, trying to get you to sign up!
Another point to note (though I can't back it up with any empirical evidence, just personal observation) is that nearly every cop I see driving around has a cellphone plastered to his ear. Yet, if I had a .08 BAC, which is less dangerous than what that cop is doing, then I could be arrested, jailed, fined, and have my license revoked.
Driving laws that target "unpopular" scapegoats are the definition of "wildly inconsistent".
Yet, the stupid legislatures will probably heed this as a call for more restrictions on cellphone users, not less restrictions on "drunk" drivers. This is the danger in pointing out inconsistencies to the nanny-statists---they tend to iron out those inconsistencies by increasing regulation.
I saw a piece in a local newspaper last night about how, in this state and in this city (Virginia and Charlottesville), alcohol and speed supposedly account for more accidents than anything else. From the article:
?I think it?s been well documented here with crashes that have occurred with cell phones, or a person fooling with their stereo,? says Charlottesville Police Sgt. Ronnie Roberts. ?The two largest factors we find are speed and alcohol.?
Statewide, speed and alcohol account for the same amount of crashes?about 7 percent. Alcohol-fueled crashes are clearly more dangerous than sober accidents. Speed causes 22 percent of all drunk driving accidents, and inebriated drivers cause nearly 40 percent of all fatalities.
Before I even finished reading the first paragraph, I could tell you why these "statistics" are complete bullshit: Speed and Alcohol are two things that can be proven by evidence---breathalyzers, or measuring skid marks and other accident evidence, can tell an officer without a doubt whether the driver was speeding and/or above the legal BAC limit. But something like cellphones, or changing the radio, or doing your makeup, or reading a book...these things leave behind no objective evidence. Maybe another driver saw you with the phone against your ear, but that's just hearsay.
So, of course, the things that are most easily proven by evidence are the things that are going to show up the most in statistical studies. Yet, the general "inattention" doesn't measure exactly why they were inattentive.
The other question here is, should statistical quantities cause laws to be unjustly biased against certain crimes? For example, let's say that, if you're driving with one leg out the window, you're 50 times as likely to have an accident. Meanwhile, if you're driving with a .08 bac, you're 5 times as likely to have an accident. Yet, since more people drive at .08+ than they do with their leg out the window, the statistical accident totals are greater for drunk driving than for hanging your leg out the window.
As we have it now, the laws are usually reactionary, basing the severity of punishment not on the actual relative severity of the act, but by the overall quantity of the act. This explains why cellphones are more dangerous than a .08 BAC, yet, talking on a phone while driving is still legal, while a .08 BAC lands you in jail without any rights.
Justice that is based on pragmatic, statistical figures, is not justice at all.
By now, cell phones are too pervasive to be hating them. We'd be hating ourselves.
Doesn't seem to be a problem for the nannies.
Evan Williams,
Maybe another driver saw you with the phone against your ear, but that's just hearsay.
Actually, as long as the witness testifies to that point in court, its not hearsay.
Rule 801 (c) of the Federal Rules of Evidence states that:
"Hearsay" is a statement, other than one made by the declarant while testifying at the trial or hearing, offered in evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted.
FRE 801(a) Statement.
A "statement" is (1) an oral or written assertion or (2) nonverbal conduct of a person, if it is intended by the person as an assertion.
FRE 801(b) Declarant.
A "declarant" is a person who makes a statement.
__________________________________
Now, if someone were to argue that the use of the cellphone was a non-verbal statement and it was used in the manner FRE 801(c) defines, then it would be hearsay. But a witness merely stating that he saw the driver driving while talking on a cellphone is not hearsay.
Mr Sullum
Your blog about blood alcohol was wrong. Should be o.08 not 0.8. Decimal points are important.
bill
If your BAC is 0.8, driving isn't your biggest immediate concern.
Jacob Sullum,
Remembering HS "health" class, 0.8 g/liter = 0.08% I believe.
Evan,
If a cop has a cell phone platered to his ear, he's distracted and less likely to give you shit!
Brett,
Well, having the the ability to merely walk would be an issue. 🙂
GG, unless you're Irish, in which case you should be ok.
What about the effects of driving while female?
Ok, I'm outta here.
What always bugs me is the argument from the grandparent brigade that if we test senior drivers more frequently, it would only be fair to test teens more frequently too.
HELLO? GRANDMA? Teens' problem isn't that they CAN'T drive well; they'll just suck it up and drive nice and slow and careful for the friggin' test. It would be a complete waste of time and money.
Lew Rockwell is in favor of legalizing drunk driving. He argues that the law should focus on driver behavior, not chemistry or other causes of reckless driving.
I wonder how many accidents are the result of "reaction times" versus poor decisions. Teenagers are strong on the first, weak on the second, while elderly are weak on the first, strong on the second.
I would disagree unless I saw some incontrovertable evidence. Elderly drivers are easily confused, especially under pressure.
I have seen figures that show that elderly drivers have fewer accidents than teenage drivers.
Is that per driven mile? I know that the stat that women have less accidents than men is frequently thrown out there, but last I checked, the accidents per driven mile rate is slanted heavily towards women in the negative.
"reaction times" versus poor decisions. Teenagers are strong on the first, weak on the second, while elderly are weak on the first, strong on the second.
"Decisions" my ass. I can explain both of those with a single homonym:
incontinence (n-knt-nns)
n.
1) The inability to control excretory functions.
2) Lack of restraint in sexual relations; immoderation.
Don't forget Driving While Short.
True story: A few ages ago, I was riding my bicycle to my local polling place, which, at the time, was an American legion Hall next to a senior citizens home. As I wheeled off the street onto the sidewalk, and crossed the apron of the home's driveway, a tiny old lady in an enormous Buick turned into the drive ahead of me, clipped my back tire and put me on the pavement. I dragged myself onto the law, at which point the wizened driver - one hopes she was satisfied that I wasn't dead - hit the gas and pulled into the center's garage.
After picking myself up and brushing myself off, I hobbled into this Orthanc of the elderly, demanding to know who thought being older than 65 gave them exemption from the hit-and-run statute. After cooling me down, I extracted a promise from an administrator there that someone would pay any bills for the repair of my bike, and cover any out-of-pocket medical costs I might incur, one of my knees having been wrenched in the crash. I also demanded that they make Grandma see her doctor, and have him decide if her license should be pulled. In many states M.D.s can report people who are medically disqualified from driving to the DOT.
My knee cleared up, my bike was easily fixed, and all my candidates lost. (Hey, I'm a Libertarian.)
But this anecdote shows that, even driving at low speed, some old folks just can't handle it anymore. When my folks retired to Florida, I learned while visiting them to beware Old Lady drivers, many of whom rarely drove until there husbands died, or had to give up driving. What is more conducive to traffic safety than a 4'9", 80 lb. antiquated female behind the wheel of an el Dorado, trying to navigate a neighborhood she hasn't lived in very long, all the while her near-blind other half is screaming directions in her hearing aid? Such joy!
Of course, as a libertarian, I reject the entire idea of drivers' licenses. Your proficiency behind the wheel should be a matter of obtaining a private certification from a group like AAA or an accredited driving school, which could be required by your insurance provider, or the owners of the toll-roads you drive on.
Kevin
There should be no speed laws and no laws against drunk driving other than as contributing factors that speak to negligence if you've actually caused damage to someone else or their property.
But then, there'd be no reason for cops to pull people over for "failure to signal lane change" as an excuse to stick his head in my truck trying to smell alcohol. Ok, all he smelled was the Wendy's burger, chili and fries I'd just bought, but still...
It led me to wonder if there's actually a legal means to prosecute failure to signal because turn signals are intended to communicate my intent to change lanes or make a turn to other drivers. Since I was the only one on the road when I changed lanes, this would be like me announcing my intent to turn on my TV when no one else is home...
(The cop saw me from a grocery store parking lot. His beat must be the most boring in the world.)
Credit where credit is due - GG is right on target with the definition of hearsay vs. witness testimony. And no Latin!
Instead of making it illegal to use a phone while driving, counldn't the state simply block cell phone usage on interstates?
Eric says, "Lew Rockwell is in favor of legalizing drunk driving. He argues that the law should focus on driver behavior, not chemistry or other causes of reckless driving."
I agree with what he says. How can you really argue against this without reorting to anecdotal and emotional pleas:
"But somehow we put up with it because we have conceded the first assumption that government ought to punish us for the content of our blood and not just our actions.
There are many factors that cause a person to drive poorly. You may have sore muscles after a weight-lifting session and have slow reactions. You could be sleepy. You could be in a bad mood, or angry after a fight with your spouse. Should the government be allowed to administer anger tests, tiredness tests, or soreness tests? That is the very next step, and don?t be surprised when Congress starts to examine this question.
[boldface mine]
What he's saying is watertight, logically. If the government can arrest us for what we might do, rather than just for what we actually do, then, logically speaking, the government should be testing every single factor that might contribute to an accident. When I was younger (high school, college), I drove drunk here and there. Never got in an accident, never got pulled over, nothing. I had a bunch of friends that did the same. Yet, I knew people who had caused accidents partly because they were eating a sandwich or fixing their hair, etc. But they weren't arrested, fined, stripped of their rights, etc. This is the big inconsistency. Say there are two identical accidents. In both, I hit a car, and break some guy's arm, along with damaging their property. In the first one, I cause the accident because I'm fiddling with my CD case, but in the second one, I cause it because I have a .10 BAC. Now, how can anyone argue that I should be prosecuted more for the second accident than for the first? Why is justice so inconsistent, even when the consequences and the results are identical?
Lew Rockwell is dead-on.
Call this an unfair generalization if you must, but old people are no good at everything.
"Instead of making it illegal to use a phone while driving, counldn't the state simply block cell phone usage on interstates?"
First, the interstates are probably the safest place to use cellphones while driving, because they require the least alertness (relative to high-traffic/urban/twisty roads).
Second, what happens when I have an emergency? Are we to be blasted back to the past and forced to flag down a trucker with a CB, all because of some sort of paranoid dillusional shit about how cellphones are the cause of all our problems? Please. Just wait till a couple people die because their cellphones didn't work on the interstate and they couldn't call for help...then see how you feel...
Instead of making it illegal to use a phone while driving, counldn't the state simply block cell phone usage on interstates?
Unintended consequence. Now you can't call 911 from your safely stopped car to report the wreck that just happened in front of you on I-95.
Your phone will give you brain tumors, too! Now that will affect your driving! 😉
That (brain tumojoke) could actually bring up another issue of restricting handicapped and/or ill drivers.
I wonder how many accidents are the result of "reaction times" versus poor decisions. Teenagers are strong on the first, weak on the second, while elderly are weak on the first, strong on the second.
I'd say not just poor reaction times for those elderly enough to actually show impairment, but poor attentiveness and poor control.
Some behaviors are so dangerous, the state can not be expected to wait until the inevitable occurs.
Personally, I don't believe cops need to wait until the guy firing randomly in a crowded place hits someone.
You can't take away my license! I'm a veteran! You wouldn't pull this crap if Claude Pepper were still around!!! Public safety be damned - I'M OLD, AND THE WORLD OWES ME A LIVING!!!!!!!
The laws support the symbolic order. Every now and then another public problem is discovered when an interest group takes ownership of it, and it works its way into the law and the symbolic order. You can only do so many of these a decade or a handwringer backlash is provoked.
I wonder if there are any statistics on old drunk people driving while talking on the cell phone? What's their reaction time?
BAC of .8% doesn't indicate you are dead drunk - it indicates you are just plain dead. (can happen as "low" as .4%)
All this discussion is based on the lowest common denominator. But since we have computers to do all the sorting, why can't we have individual testing for various driving conditions?
For example my license might say I'm drunk if I'm blowing a .04, but that I handle a cell phone conversation, while Ted Kennedy's license says he's fine up to a .15, but since he's over 70 he's too old to drive at all.
First, the interstates are probably the safest place to use cellphones while driving, because they require the least alertness (relative to high-traffic/urban/twisty roads).
Hahahaha. You've never driven I-66 in Washington, DC, have you?
Anecdotal -- today I went out at lunchtime and had to take 395 from Arlington to Alexandria and back. In both directions, I got stuck behind people -- three of them in total -- who were obliviously traveling at 40mph in traffic that was otherwise going 60-70mph. In all three cases, when I was finally able to pass them, each of them was on the phone. Just saying.
If the government wanted to ban cell phones period so they couldn't be used anywhere; I am certain some government office would run ads showing someone driving while talking on a cell phone and hitting a pedestrian. The arguement they would make is: "see driving while talking on a cell phone increases the chance of a collosion, and therefore people must be stopped from using a cell phone even while they aren't driving". This is no less reasonable than the current ads about pot smokers driving.
Or maybe they could show an ad with someone stealing to pay their phone bill.
"You'll never forget the people you hurt when you wanted to talk."
Paid for by the partnership for a cell phone free America
As a deterrent, how many people do you think, instead of going out and buying a decent handsfree kit, simply don't use the cell phone in the car as a result of the laws in NJ, NY, and DC? I think it's a pretty high amount.
bigbigslacker,
Right. 0.8% indicates that 80% of your "blood" is alcohol.
Phil,
You could be stuck on the beltway for life if you aren't paying attention. 🙂
The thing is, being young and reckless and old and slow are things that one is. Being on a cell phone is not something one can adapt to, not short term and not long term.
DOT has a lot of data on this. Cell phones are right up their with highway BJs - people who are otherwise good drivers go to Sh!# on the phone and the Sh!# that they go to is worse by every measure than being young and dumb, old and feeble, and IU.
I know this is a few steps back from where the thread is right now, but I have driven after a few drinks (I am one year shy of 21, so if I use listerine and get pulled over I'll lose my license and the respect of everyone I know) and I have driven after intense weight lifting. I must say, after a hard shoulder and arms workout, I am a much greater menace to society. Also, a lot of the cell phone crap about being "emotionally involved" in a conversation and losing focus on the road does not ring true. Has there never been a break-up in a car, or a fight in a car? Should those people be prosecuted?
Barney,
Are you suggesting that I should be legally prohibited from getting a hummer in a Hummer?
Right. 0.8% indicates that 80% of your "blood" is alcohol.
No, that would be "0.8" "0.8%" is less than 1% BAC.
Still fuck you up pretty bad though....
As a deterrent, how many people do you think, instead of going out and buying a decent handsfree kit, simply don't use the cell phone in the car as a result of the laws in NJ, NY, and DC?
From my own observation driving in DC every single day -- I drive in to drop my wife off at work, and back in to pick her up -- it hasn't made a whit of difference. I see just as many people as I ever did, including one just a few days ago who was paying so little attention she nearly drove right through a red light into oncoming traffic at 20th & E. NW. She screeched to a halt about a foot and half short of having her entire front end taken off.
Ban Dyslexic drivers!
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/02/04/dyslexic_driver_study/
I believe LD/50 for BAC is .4%. Probably (I have no evidence) .8% is LD/99 or LD/99.9, could even be LD/100.
As one poster pointed out. If your BAC is .8% driving is not your most immediate concern.
BTW for water 1 l. = 1,000 g. .8 g/l is aproximately (adjusting for alcohol vs water makes it aproximate) .08% BAC.
Had you said .8g/l you would have been correct. .8%BAC is 8g/l.