No Civil War? Darn!
Mark Steyn gets off a good riff at the expense of John Kerry's dour reaction to the Iraq vote:
To be a truly advanced, sophisticated democracy you need an opposition party that knows how to react to good news by sounding whiny and grudging and moving the goalposts. "The real test is not the election," he declared, airily swatting aside 8 million voters. "The real test is…"
I dozed off at that point, so I'm unable to tell you what moved goalposts the senator inserted. But no doubt they involved, as they always do, the Bush administration needing to "reach out" more effectively to involve the "international community". "International community", by the way, doesn't mean Tony Blair, John Howard, the Poles, Japan, India, Fiji, et al but Jacques Chirac and Kofi Annan, a pantomime horse in which both men are playing the rear end.
But I think Steyn errs when he suggests that Sunday's vote beat back the threat of civil war in Iraq, even though he is quite correct that some critics of Bush fervently hope for just that to happen.
The biggest opportunity for civil war will come as the new Iraqi government takes shape in the coming months. Some players will end up feeling slighted and Iraq's own armed forces will grow in size and in responsibility, a necessary but dangerous step. As they grow the units might either fail to contest various militias or go rogue themselves, both outcomes can be found in the history of nation-building.
Even those possibilities are remote, however, what with U.S. troops on hand to smack down such funny business. So the gravest threat of civil war should be pushed even further into the future, perhaps as the U.S. presence is drawn-down. At some point. Right?
The one thing Sunday's turnout clearly does is remove any possibility that continued terror attacks will be construed as some sort of popular disatisfaction with the government-building process.
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There's always a big market for pundits who don't have to hear what a poltical figure has to say in order to oppose it.
Didn't you see the lines at the polling stations? Who needs to listen to ideas, when you've got such great footage?
An election proves that there won't be a civil war?
Two words: eighteen sixty.
The one thing Sunday's turnout clearly does is remove any possibility that continued terror attacks will be construed as some sort of popular disatisfaction with the government-building process.
i don't even think we can say this much, mr taylor. i think what the vote clearly represents is the will of iraqis to be self-determined.
that may or may not have anything to do with american institution-building and support of the insurgency (which, it must be faced, has some level of popular currency to be sustainable). it is entirely possible for iraqis to both vote in these elections now and reject the entire construction next month. they key will be the perceived complicity of the government to american will.
most iraqis i've read are properly cynical about the current cpa regime. if the elected government is seen to be making similar concessions to american will, i think it'll earn the same cynical dismissal quickly -- potentially aborting the entire democratic process for something more clearly antiamerican.
Support for the occupation is around 2%. Virtually every party listed in the election ran on a platform of getting the Americans out - you know, the Americans in charge of the government-building process?
Though hey, if this election is what it takes for the hawks to finally hear the "leave us alone" statement that Iraqis have been making for the past decade and a half, great.
"Who needs to listen to ideas, when you've got such great footage?"
Ideas?
What ideas?
The only "ideas" Kerry's ever regarding Iraq is to repeatedly claim that he could get all this "international support" which we all know was a crock and engage in a bunch of Monday morning quarterbacking about the operational details of the war and how he could have done it all better.
"...which we all know was a crock..."
Gil, would you say "we all know" that international support and UN mandate are impossible more, less than, or about the same amount as "we all know" that Iraq had a nuke program at the time of the invasion?
A lot of things you know, you don't actually know.
The biggest opportunity for civil war will come as the new Iraqi government takes shape in the coming months.
Or how about either right after American troops leave or once Iraqis come to feel they're there permanently.
I don't know if anyone's ever felt that the insurgency represented a majority. But people willing to kill and die for a cause aren't necessarily going to be stopped by ballots. Hopefully the process will weaken the insurgency little by little as their cause seems more and more futile and the political process begins to show more and more promise as a means to effect the world they live in. But that remains to be seen.
I should add that (as I've said before) it's been my observation for some time that the need to feel one is in the right is a very powerful force in human motivation. I try to rise above that phenomenon as much as possible myself by being conscious of it. Maybe I succeed, maybe I fail. I wouldn't be shocked if a political animal like Kerry is failing. Well, or not even trying!
Um, holding these elections was part of Kerry's Iraq proposal throughout his campaign. What, fyodor, is he trying not to be wrong about?
"A lot of things you know, you don't actually know."
I know that France and Germany, the countries that the libs think constitute "international support" (as well as "international opinion")made it clear that they wouldn't get involved regardless of whether Kerry or Bush won and yet Kerry kept on spouting off about being able to get international support, while at the same time trying to belittle and run down any contributions from the countries we did get help from.
That is something I do know - regardless of whether you think I know it or not.
joe,
Re-reading the post, I see that it does not demonstrate that Kerry's actualy done any "moving [of] goalposts" but rather merely assumes that what he's saying now is tantamount to that. In lieu of any evidence that he's actually done that, I will side with you that he hasn't. One would feel better about Kerry's comments if the tone didn't seem to be saying, "I could be right yet!" But then, I'm taking Steyn's word for it that it came across that way.
I think that the lack of evidence for a civil war argues for our government's troops coming home now. The Shiites and Sunnis don't seem to be at each other's throats. The violence is always directed at US government presence. There are no episodes of violence or threats of blood baths directed at Sunni enclaves in the Shiite south or at Shiite areas in the Sunni north. This situation is nothing like the Balkans. The cause of the tension in Iraq is US troops.
"I'm taking Steyn's word for it that it came across that way."
First, you're taking Steyn's word for it?
Second, thinking of the things that have "comm across" to Steyn and his ilk as "I HEART Saddam Hussein," perhaps the man's subjective impressions of how people "come across" aren't very reliable.
Gil, you might not be aware of this, but on occasion, heads of government who might be enterring into negotiations signal a hard line in order to improve their baragaining position.
"Gil, you might not be aware of this, but on occasion, heads of government who might be enterring into negotiations signal a hard line in order to improve their baragaining position."
I'm aware that that is nothing more than idle speculation on your part.
...I'm not the one trying to prove a negative, Gil.
I'm not trying to prove anything - I don't have to.
It was Kerry who claimed he could get international support. The burden of proof is on him and any of his apologists like you to prove that he could have done so. He had zero evidence to prove that he could have done so.
It's hilarious to hear a war supporter talking about "moving the goalposts". As I vaguely recall, the original goal of this excellent adventure in Iraq was saving the world from Saddam's weapons of mass destruction.
How's that working out, you ask? Check out the newly released CIA report titled: "Iraq: No Large-Scale Chemical Warfare Efforts Since Early 1990s".
In Bush's "48 hours" address before the war, how many times was democracy mentioned? (Hint: it's the same number as the number of weapons of mass destruction found in Iraq.) To be fair, he did drop a couple of sentences on "liberty and peace", but it was certainly not the thrust of his message.
Of course he has zero evidence - he didn't get the chance to try, and Bush hasn't tried.
You are asserting a negative - that it is impossible to get international support for the transition and security efforts in Iraq. Kerry claims that it is possible. Since we don't have evidence either way, you cannot honestly claim to know that such an effort is hopeless.
Wow, this is amazing. The entire argument has shifted now that the elections were successful.
I can't understand why so many people are rooting for failure, and when that failure doesn't come, they move the target and root for the next failure. And yes, it goes for the other side too, but I'm not currently reading a thread in which the other side is proving themselves to be a bunch of blowhards.
You people are so full of yourselves and your black and white absolutism that you no longer see the grays necessary to be successful and do the right thing. Your hatred of the war has caused you to lose all sense of impartiality to anything that has developed from the war.
Why, in the international community diatribe, do the Germans always seem to get overlooked?
"You are asserting a negative - that it is impossible to get international support for the transition and security efforts in Iraq."
I am stating a fact. Kerry claimed he could get "international support". France and Germany said he wouldn't get their support. And that's all there is to it.
Goiter, when the Soviet Union existed, were you "rooting" for the people who lived there to end up in bread lines? Or were you predicting that they would do so?
You pretend that people opposed to this war love Saddam Hussein and want to see Americans killed, and then you have the balls to lecture people on impartiality?
"And that's all there is to it."
If I sold cars for a living, I would pray on a daily basis that people like Gil would walk onto my lot.
"Well, there's the sticker price, and that's all there is to it."
In Bush's "48 hours" address before the war, how many times was democracy mentioned? (Hint: it's the same number as the number of weapons of mass destruction found in Iraq.) To be fair, he did drop a couple of sentences on "liberty and peace", but it was certainly not the thrust of his message.
And what should you have the effort currently focused on? I mean if you were making decisions rather than just sitting back firing from afar?
Before the war I was very much against it, being a small l libertarian. As the war commenced I was still against it, but had resigned myself to the fact that it was going to happen.
As it ended, I was no longer against it because that would do no good. Our gov't effed up, the war happened. I was just rooting for the government to closely follow the Truman / Marshall blueprint of nation-building, which outside of iron-fisted imperialism was the only successful manner in which a country was rebuilt following an invasion.
When they failed to do even THAT, I just started hoping that they'd start to have small victories on specific things, i.e. restarting the Iraqi economy, the elections, negotiations between the three factions, maintain infrastructure than the insurgents were destroying.
But I guess it's just much easier to sit back and fire volleys from a long distance and tell yourself that you were right when things go wrong. How, exactly, would you manage the situation right now? What would you do that would make yourself and your ilk stop bitching?
Withdrawing is not an option, and the cutesy response of "I wouldn't be there in the first place" is not tenable.
?Jacques Chirac and Kofi Annan, a pantomime horse in which both men are playing the rear end.?
Most likely the funniest turn of phrase I?ve read on H&R.
?Two words: eighteen sixty.?
Here?s to hoping joe; or were you being pessimistic?
Goiter, I realize you're against Smart Growth, but I'm sorry, you lost that debate. Smart Growth policies are here to stay.
So, where do you think we should draw the Urban Growth Boundary? Or don't you want to be productive?
"Well, there's the sticker price, and that's all there is to it."
As fictional as a car's sticker price is, compared to John Kerry's ability to actually accomplish anything of any value whatsoever, it's rock solid reality.
Oh, well, just as long as you're not allowing personal bias to color your view...
Goiter, when the Soviet Union existed, were you "rooting" for the people who lived there to end up in bread lines? Or were you predicting that they would do so?
Joe, just to let you know - last week I made a decision to stop responding to your disjointed comparison and your strawmen. The above is one.
You pretend that people opposed to this war love Saddam Hussein and want to see Americans killed, and then you have the balls to lecture people on impartiality?
PLEASE joe, PLEASE tell me when I have EVER said that those opposed to the war love saddam hussein or that they want to see American's killed? When?
Point to a specific instance, you asshole. Just one. Any one.
You're not going to find one you reactionist prick. I was opposed to this war from the very beginning, and on principle, rather than my hatred of bush and republicans, you fucking hack.
Goiter, I realize you're against Smart Growth, but I'm sorry, you lost that debate. Smart Growth policies are here to stay.
Actually, they aren't. It must be difficult to go through a day as you, being wrong at every turn. There are multiple examples of communities retracting smart growth laws or repealing smart growth laws. Specifically communities that were run down and destroyed by smart growth.
Hear, hear T.P.G.!!
Hear, hear T.P.G.!!
Hadayn: "It's hilarious to hear a war supporter talking about 'moving the goalposts'. As I vaguely recall, the original goal of this excellent adventure in Iraq was saving the world from Saddam's weapons of mass destruction."
To be fair, Steyn has been consistently plugging for forcible democratic transformation of the Middle East (a.k.a., to the intellectually and morally honest, the mass killing of Muslims) for the last two years:
http://jewishworldreview.com/0303/steyn.html
Of course he has zero evidence - he didn't get the chance to try, and Bush hasn't tried.
You are asserting a negative - that it is impossible to get international support for the transition and security efforts in Iraq. Kerry claims that it is possible. Since we don't have evidence either way, you cannot honestly claim to know that such an effort is hopeless.
Whoah, flashback to all the Christians who tried to save my unbelieving soul by saying I couldn't disbelieve in God because I couldn't prove God didn't exist.
Sorry, it's called "skepticism", and when Kerry claimed he could pull get the UN on board (as the UN was pulling out of Iraq) and France and Germany (as they both said they'd help out under no circumstances), very firm skepticism was warranted of him. Especially at this date, even more skepticism is warranted of people who still maintain that he could have.
For that matter, Bush did try. We can criticize the seriousness and feasibility of that try, but he did try to get the UNSC to support the invasion.
Steyn?!? Didn't that hack promise to retire after Bush lost the election?
I LIVE in Ohio and don't know a single person that voted for Bush. Bush lost, end of story, let's get on with it, light up the tree mr. president.
The Poles are bailing at the end of this year.
"Smart growth" means the kind of growth me and my liberal elite friends like.
Gilbert Martin is correct about the French and German position. Kerry was always being disingenuous about his ability to garner "international support." Then again, I also think that the French and German position is sensible.
Eric the .5b,
The French position is that they would help once Iraq has a "legitimate" government. Anyway, aside from putting 10-20k troops in Iraq in a place which doesn't like the foreign troops it has now (whether they want to fight them is another matter), I don't see what they could do. The whole "international community" bit is a political football in the U.S. that is divorced from reality.
Gary: Well, by some of the definitions bandied around, the French can deem the Iraqi government "illegitimate" for quite a while. At any rate, of course, Kerry would have somehow had to set up a "legitimate" government before getting their terribly valuable help.
As for the rest, I generally agree, though the French and German governments shouldn't have participated in sanctions and the rest of the manipulations around Iraq if they wanted to honorably stay out of it.
"Kerry would have somehow had to set up a "legitimate" government before getting their terribly valuable help."
Yeah.
It's not like the French military would ever be that much help anyway.
They are very far removed from their glory days of being a major military world power.
"There are multiple examples of communities retracting smart growth laws or repealing smart growth laws."
And there are far more examples of communities and states adopting smart growth policies. History is bumpy like that.
And you shouldn't swear so much.
Eric the .5b,
Well, the sanctions were U.N. mandated. Are you suggesting that they should have flouted it?
"The violence is always directed at US government presence."
Except for when it's not.
"It's not like the French military would ever be that much help anyway.
They are very far removed from their glory days of being a major military world power."
France put an armored division into Iraq just 14 years ago. You might remember that - when President Bush succeeded in putting together a global coalition to enforce a UN resolution?
Gilbert Martin,
The French military is as useful and expert as the British military. France has a sizeable and technically advanced air force and the largest (and most advanced) navy in Europe (outside of Russia). It also has some of the most crack special operations forces on the planet. For a small country it has a very powerful military, and unlike Cuba in the 1960s and 1970s, its not dependent on another power to throw its weight around.
Anyway, the whole point of my remarks are that when either Bush or Kerry are speaking about the "international community" or "traditional allies" or what have you, they're doing that more for home consumption than anything else.
Yeah I remember they contributed forces in the first Iraq war.
I also remember that is was the US military and the British, as usual, that did the heavy lifing. Their absence would have made no difference in the outcome.
Well, the sanctions were U.N. mandated. Are you suggesting that they should have flouted it?
They were mandated by a UNSC vote that the governments of France and Germany supported. They shouldn't have supported it if they wanted to stay out of matters.
"The French military is as useful and expert as the British military. France has a sizeable and technically advanced air force and the largest (and most advanced) navy in Europe (outside of Russia)"
Are you saying that the French navy is superior to the British navy? How so?
The French military is as useful and expert as the British military. France has a sizeable and technically advanced air force and the largest (and most advanced) navy in Europe (outside of Russia). It also has some of the most crack special operations forces on the planet. For a small country it has a very powerful military, and unlike Cuba in the 1960s and 1970s, its not dependent on another power to throw its weight around.
Not to be rude, but can you substantiate this with any recent references? Especially with regards to naval strength, that seems off.
Gilbert Martin,
Detail for us the exact geographical dispositions of these three elements of the "coalition forces." Then describe for us their positions of movement over time once the invasion commenced.
You'll find that French units were the first to enter Iraq and that they were given the critical job of protecting much of the left flank of Schwarzkopf's critical hook.
See:
Thomas D. Dinackus, Order of Battle
and
James J. Cooke, 100 Miles from Baghdad
"France has a sizeable and technically advanced air force and the largest (and most advanced) navy in Europe (outside of Russia). It also has some of the most crack special operations forces on the planet."
I would add that France has also has a long (and recent) history of brutally, if not succesfully, occupying hostile territory. (see Vietnam, Algeria, Ivory Coast, etc.) They also don't seem to have the same qualms as Americans do about killing innocent non-white folks (and Americans don't even seem to care that much).
Also, they have better food.
GG,
Thanks for the defense of French military prowess. Escpecially the French Navy to whom we owe our independence.
Just goes to prove that good men and good equipment cannot always overcome uneven leadership and inept foreign policy.
Of course, they and the Poles are the only people to have captured Moscow in the last 400 years ...
QFMC cos. V
I repeat, the outcome of the war would have been no different had the French not been there at all. If the US or the British had had to deploy more troops to handle the tasks assigned to the French, they could have done so.
If the French military is so formidable, they must have vastly improved from WW2 when the Germans stomped all over them.
GG, you meant the largest Navy in continental Europe, right?
GM,
Combat is graded on a curve and nobody did very well against the Germans in 1940. Don't fool yourself, the French can fight, it's their foreing policy that sucks.
Dragoon!
Eric .5b & Gilbert Martin,
Britain recently (July of 2004) decommissioned a significant portion of its navy and decided not to order as many new units of more advanced platforms as it had desired in the past; this means that Britain has a smaller navy than France. As to the issue of which is more advanced, one can give the lead to the French because they have their Lafayette DDs in service, whereas the British Type 45s are still on order. The difference between the two new sub fleets of France and Britain are relatively a wash. And of course France has the CDG.
"The French military is as useful and expert as the British military."
Yeah, riiiight. Well, they kill civilians like nobody's business. But France's navy is so advanced that their aircraft carrier the Charles de Gaulle is tied to the dock and has a reactor so leaky that the next generation of French sailors will be self illuminating. They need another and are asking the Brits to build it for them. And their Navy can't hold a candle to the UK's, sorry. Despite the larger size of the French military they had problems putting togather half the troop contribution of the British in DS1, and a significant part of that contribution was French Foreign Legion (it was the 6th Light Armored Division, but was essentially reinforced mech infantry) . They contributed a lot of aircraft, but had to rely on American logistics due to the lack of night bombing capability. The French have actually been restructuring their military, feeling that they were humiliated in DS1. Special Forces are purported to be very good, when they're not sinking environmentalists boats.
Gilbert,
In my humble opinion, the problem with the French during WW2 had nothing to do with personal bravery. If the Maquis serve as an adequate example, the French resistance fought as bravely, and with more immediately at stake, as Allied troops.
(Lest I risk defending the French too much, I've always wondered how we would have fared had it been our country bordering Germany at the onset of the war. It's easy to mock the courage of others in wartime when you're 3,000 miles and one ocean away. End of francophile rant.)
The problem faced by the French was placing a ridiculous amount of confidence in a giant hunk of reinforced concrete that failed to account for the mobility of the German Panzer divisions, who bypassed the Maginot Line and cut right through the Ardennes like a hot knife through butter.
joe,
No, the largest navy in Europe outside Russia. I am fairly certain that Nelson is rolling over in his grave these days.
Note that the size of a navy isn't as important today as the functionality of the platforms one has. A relatively small navy can be a serious force to reckon with if its well trained and technologically advanced. We aren't in the age of the dreadnought any more.
Gilbert, be careful what you say about the French military here. You never know if some badass French Marine might take your comments personally and show up to kick your ass! 😉
TPG-
I certainly see your point about dealing with the present situation rather than simply saying "I never would have gone there in the first place." And after seeing a large percentage of the Iraqi population risk their lives and defy terrorist threats, I start to have some hope that liberalization might be possible there.
However, there is one key reason why it is still worth revisiting the issue of whether we should have gone in the first place: Bush has laid out in his inaugural speech an agenda that, if taken seriously, implies that the invasion option is on the table for a number of other countries. And not just on the table in the sense that any country must keep the military option open as a last resort. Rather, he's made it clear that spreading freedom around the globe (presumably by overthrowing dictators) is a crucial part of his strategy for protecting America.
If more wars are on the agenda, then the wisdom of the original decision to invade Iraq remains an urgent matter, because it will have a direct bearing on military actions in the near future. I freely admit that if things continue to go as they are now then I might have to reconsider my stance on the decision. Either way, it seems to me that the merits or demerits of the original decision remain an important subject with a direct bearing on decisions that may confront us in the near future.
"The French military is as useful and expert as the British military."
Plus, each Frenchman is issued a small, white flag and drilled relentlessly in its use.
"(Lest I risk defending the French too much, I've always wondered how we would have fared had it been our country bordering Germany at the onset of the war. It's easy to mock the courage of others in wartime when you're 3,000 miles and one ocean away. End of francophile rant.)"
Well you would have to change the geography of the world to play out the what if, since our country is much more vast than France. If Germany had bordered the US, they would have run into the same problem they did when they invaded the vast Soviet Union and the Soviets were able to trade territory for time to recover and organize their forces.
"Gilbert, be careful what you say about the French military here. You never know if some badass French Marine might take your comments personally and show up to kick your ass! ;)"
I won't hold my breath on that one.
There's 3 words you see together too often..."badass french marine..."
There's 3 words you don't see together too often..."badass french marine..."
Nah, you'll want to hold your breath once he shows up. Ba dum bum. Is this thing working?
The French were not quick to surrended in WW2. (Now the Belgians, they're another matter, but even then, it was mainly the king, not the people.) The French fought bravely until they were thoroughly trounced. They were trounced not because of their fighting ability or equipment, but because of outdated tactics (tactics that were pretty much universal, outside of Germany, and were similar to those of the US military at the time), and because an attacker will inevitably overrun lots of territory before he is stopped, even against a superior foe, just because the attacker has the ability to choose the engagements of his liking.
Junyo,
Like the U.S. hasn't killed "civilians" in the recent war in Iraq?
But France's navy is so advanced that their aircraft carrier the Charles de Gaulle is tied to the dock and has a reactor so leaky that the next generation of French sailors will be self illuminating.
The reactor problem has been fixed of course (why people want to continue to repeat three and four year old news about the CDG I don't know) and last time I saw anything about it (this last summer) CDG was regularly at sea.
They need another and are asking the Brits to build it for them.
No. The British won't be building it exclusively. Its joint venture by BAE & Thales design; BAE being a British company and Thales being French.
Despite the larger size of the French military they had problems putting togather half the troop contribution of the British in DS1, and a significant part of that contribution was French Foreign Legion (it was the 6th Light Armored Division, but was essentially reinforced mech infantry).
Because the French Constitution states that no military deployments of conscripts may be made outside of France except in Europe. Thus Mitterand had to cobble together what volunteers were in the French military at the time. France now as an all-volunteer force (that's been the case since 2000).
Gilbert Martin,
Britain's presence there was not determinative either of course (indeed, both Britain and France's military was swamped by the American presence there). However, part of your original claim was that Britain and the U.S. did all the "heavy lifting," which of course isn't true.
If the French military is so formidable, they must have vastly improved from WW2 when the Germans stomped all over them.
Because as we know, nothing ever changes in this world. 🙂 Judging the French based on a military engagement sixty-five years in the past is a bit silly.
SPD,
The French learned the wrong lessons from WWI about offense and defense. Verdun and other such engagements impressed them more than the the mobility of their tanks at the close of the war.
Reading your previous posts joe, I never thought I'd agree, but I do.
I've never had a problem with the French surrendering to the Germans,they were getting their asses handed to them. It's the Vichy government that fired on our soldiers that I have issues with.
joe,
If Petain had the nuts he would have transferred the government to Algeria and fought from there (as de Gaulle proposed and many French legislators agreed to do). Plus the rump of southern France was defensible (indeed, French forces there had whipped the Italians and were reasonably well supplied and commanded to continue the war from there for perhaps six months to a year). Most of the blame lies solely with a timorous French political leadership at the time.
Junyo,
Overall ship design of the new British and French carriers will be done by Thales, BTW. Thales has a lot expertise in that area and BAE needs Thales to do that sort of work because it doesn't have the ability to do that without a lot of investment in training, getting new employees, etc.
moejoe, the Germans has 1,000,000 French soldiers as hostages. The French in North Africa had to make a go at fighting us off.
But don't feel too bad - eventually, every H&R regular has an "I can't believe I'm agreeing with joe" day.
Gary, I do not accept the formulation that successfully defending southern France against the Italians (along a narrow front) demonstrates that it could have been successfully defended against the Germans (along a broad front).
joe,
Well, as I wrote, they could have defended the rump for six months to a year; enough time to transfer the home fleet to North Africa, a large portion of the French army, the government, etc. They chose not to do that.
Closer to the main topic. I can't imagine anyone would actually root for a bloody civil war in Iraq. Just to prove Bush made a mistake? Not even I could be that cynical, and I opposed the decision to go to war.
From a pragmatic perspective, I would hope that those seeking power in the new Iraqi government will choose the intelligent (ie, less bloody) route and work to earn as many seats as possible in the new parliament.
Granted, with over 100 different parties vying for power, it might be best to form coalitions with like-minded individuals and proceed from there.
"Two words: eighteen sixty."
Jesus joe, if you wanted to supply an example of a failed democracy you could have saved your breath, and just said "Haiti"...you know- the democracy engineered by Clinton, and headed-up by the darling of the Black Caucus, Jean "Neck-Tie" Aristide.
A lot of democracies (including ours) have endured civil wars. The democracies have tended to survive, and the good guys won. Some democracies have succumbed to coups, of course. Also invasions. And there is one murky example of a democracy perishing in part due to a popular ballot (Weimar Germany...though I note you are giving it a rest today).
ALL examples lack a conspicuous feature of the current case - the presence of 150,000 US troops. The "second election" you were so exercised about yesterday will almost certainly occur while a good part of that US contingent is still in-country...unless that louche slob Ted Kennedy gets his way.
Andrew,
The U.S. has been fucking up/screwing over Haiti for a lot longer than that.
And there is one murky example of a democracy perishing in part due to a popular ballot (Weimar Germany...though I note you are giving it a rest today).
Its a myth that the Nazis gained a majority of the seats in the Reichstag in any election they stood for. They always depended on other parties to get over the 50% mark.
A lot of democracies (including ours) have endured civil wars. The democracies have tended to survive, and the good guys won.
Can you name some of these (besides the U.S.) please?
Gee GG
Two that spring to mind immediately - France 1871, and (suprisingly) the much-maligned Weimar Republic in the much more precarious period 1919-1923. A feature worth noting here is that both France after the Franco-Prussian War and Germany after WWI had to beware the very real possibility of being over-run and occupied if they didn't get their shit together promptly - revanchist fantasies needed to be put on the shelf for the time being, and abated as time went by.
France did not, and likely never would have attacked Germany to regain the losses of 1870, and Weimar would have endured absent the additional strains of the Great Depression, and a Europe a generation later to demoralised to enforce international order.
A couple of examples of one-time republics that endured periods of strong-man rule under incredible pressures, but eventually defaulted to their republican origins are Nationalist China (in exile!)
and Finland ( after a murderous Civil War, a bruising encounter with the SU in 1939, a disasterous decision to throw in with Hitler, and an ELECTED communist parliament - well, 44% - in 1944!).Finns had to breathe pretty carefully for a generation after the war, but they retained an open society.
Albeit it was Hitler PLUS a medley of Nationalist and Catholic Centre politicians, it remains a foct that Germany supplies perhaps the one example of a caucus of genuinely elected political leaders signing away the liberties of a republic without being under immediate duress from a rebellious military or an occupying army - I know less about Mussolini's coup in Italy, which might be a broadly similar case.
Can it happen...well, I suppose so. I can't imagine why any sensible person would be a democracy skeptic based on the examples.
Andrew,
So, two examples (one which you had already named) equals "A lot?"
A couple of examples of one-time republics that endured periods of strong-man rule under incredible pressures, but eventually defaulted to their republican origins are Nationalist China (in exile!).
Calling China post-1911 a "republic" is stretching it a bit.
Germans (who voted for the Nazi and allied parties - the latter being largely conservative and religious in nature) didn't view the issue as one of giving up their liberties but of securing a stable and effective government.
The point of my question was of course to illustrate the fact that there haven't been very many democracies in the history of humanity; thus the fact that a few of them have experienced civil wars isn't particularly meaningful.
As to post-1870 France, it was preparing for war with Germany throughout that period. That's the whole rationale behind the entente cordial, the three-year, conscription, the French general staff's obsession with war plans, the statue of Strasburg veiled on the Place de la Concorde, etc. No, France had its fair share of fire eaters when it came to war with Germany.
It is not so much that there have been few democracies (and/or republics) in human history, but rather that few of them are forced to civil war by irreconciable differences - and few of those differences that have led to breakdowns in the past, such as the legacy of human slavery in the US and other new world republics, are terribly relevant today. Democracy is not only a pleasurable luxury, it is a more rational way of doing business...it works better.
GG we all know you can google, and have done a lot of reading, if you want to garner some esteem around here, why not try to demonstrate that you can actually draw some insight from all the casual study, rather than ejaculating random talking points like some precocious 13-year-old?
I would prefer to think German voters did not know they were squandering their liberties when empowering the NSDAP, but it is hard to believe they completely ignored all the Fuerer-prinzip talk they would have heard over the years. And anyway, for the sake of the argument, conceding one or two cases still leaves the prospect of democratic failure about as improbable as an asteroid strike.
Andrew,
Throughout human history most governments have been one form of monarchy or aristocracy (some of which arose to the level of empire) or another. I see now you are expanding your claim to include "republics" (likely because you realize that democracies have been rather rare things in human history). One wonders what else you'll try to pack into to it.
GG we all know you can google, and have done a lot of reading, if you want to garner some esteem around here, why not try to demonstrate that you can actually draw some insight from all the casual study, rather than ejaculating random talking points like some precocious 13-year-old?
Why don't you make an actual, substantive argument? 🙂 Anyway, if my points are "random" is largely because I responding to your random assertions.
...but it is hard to believe they completely ignored all the Fuerer-prinzip talk they would have heard over the years.
Read a book titled The Nazi Conscience - you'll find that Hitler and Nazi party members were rather circumspect in declaring their overall goals, especially in the years before their consumation of power. They also played to traditional German values like the heimat, etc., so its much easier to argue that Germans who voted for the Nazis or allied parties were as likely interested in preserving their values rather than getting rid of them.
And anyway, for the sake of the argument, conceding one or two cases still leaves the prospect of democratic failure about as improbable as an asteroid strike.
My point is of course is that there are very few data points upon which may draw to make your conclusion; and since this is the case, I don't find much reason to accept it.
If you take exception to some phrasing, this is hardly substantive. By the most restrictive definition of a democracy - one that Russia or Malaysia could pass - you could count about 50 or 60 concurrently. Dozens have endured for generations.
"Data points" are never very likely to settle any political controversy. Anything indisputable is not going to be controversial, right? It is always possible to say that GG is waiting on more data...but that makes GG rather a dull 13-year-old.
To tie up these threads with innumerable pointless one-upmanship posts merely makes them unusable for sunbstantive discussions. I am quite prepared to allow anyone's inexact phrasing on the issue to stand (or would demurr only in a passing way) if their contention was understandable enough.
BTW Mein Kammpf was a best-seller before '33, and Hitler's opponents certainly articulated the danger he represented. Then again, Hitler sometimes preened himself on being a successful competitor in a electoral milieu, and went to some trouble to promote a plebicitory "legitimacy", so some maight have expected him to try and keep winning elections, rather than halting them. Others, of course, didn't care.
No. I am not going to read a book...it didn't do YOU any good, did it?
AND
genuine monarchies and aristocratic societies are all but non-existent in the world today...they don't represent a norm any more than dinosaurs do.