Left Holding the Bag
The San Francisco Commission on the Environment wants a tax on sacks: Consumers would have to pay 17 cents for every shopping bag they take home. According to the San Francisco Chronicle, "The commission wants the fee initially to apply only to customers at larger grocery stores. But it wants an option to later extend it to smaller markets, drugstores, department stores, hardware stores, dry cleaners, food takeout, newspapers and other bag distributors."
Mindful of the possible effect on low-income shoppers, the commission also wants to subsidise bags for the poor. Under the current system, you may recall, the poor are already getting the bags for free.
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Gosh, what a shock: Reason Writer opposes a tax, even one which could reasonably be classified as a user fee.
Recycling works for those who like to recycle, but it doesn't work for plastic bags, judging from the plastic-strewn landscape in our local creeks here in Austin.
An even better idea would be selling canvas bags with a relatively high deposit. Deposits on bottles induced my friends and I to clean up our local environment when we were kids (for sweet sweet CANDY).
But don't throw stones at San Fran's idea unless you're willing to go with something like a deposit.
isn't the price of bags already factored in to that $3.40 gallon of milk? there's the user fee.
How will they stop black market bags from Oakland? There has to be a bag tax stamp, and a division of bags to issue it.
No, gaius, it isn't. San Fran spends a lot of money cleaning up plastic bags that just end up strewn about the landscape (or, like in Austin, they DON'T, and the value of public open space takes a corresponding hit). The user of the bag currently pays nothing to account for this externality.
How do you tax something that's given away free of charge? Are California's laws that screwed up?
San Francisco sounds more and more like a statist hellhole the more I learn. Why in the name of Gavin does a city need a "Commission on the Environment"? Doesn't the state take care of that well enough? Particularly since it's California we're talking about here, not New Jersey.
M1EK--I'm willing to bet that San Fran natives already pay plenty of taxes, certainly enough to cover the cost of cleaning up a few bags in public.
I think we shouldn't even produce bags at all, or at least make bag manufactures pay a user fee for the total energy they consume running their business that produces the bags.
The phrase "user fee" is applied too broadly these days. If the government ran the stores, a charge for the bags would be a user fee. But when it's inserting itself into a private transaction, it's imposing a tax.
"We're not trying to just charge a user fee; we're trying to make a change in behavior," said Paul Pelosi Jr., commission vice president.
Revenue enhancement AND social engineering, all rolled into one tidy package. What's not to like?
But why not ban them altogether? Limit grocery purchases to all you can carry with your two hands. Less food purchased = less obesity = a Happier, Healthier America. Everyone wins! The logic is irrefutable.
Just make the customer make 18 trips to their car carrying everything in their two hands. You clean up the environment and make people get exercise at the same time.
Damn you ed, you beat me to it.
San Fran spends a lot of money cleaning up plastic bags that just end up strewn about the landscape
right, mr m1ek, and like mr ben...
I'm willing to bet that San Fran natives already pay plenty of taxes, certainly enough to cover the cost of cleaning up a few bags in public.
it isn't as though the bag cleanup (which i suspect is the same streetcleaning that would go on anyway) isn't already being paid for.
so let's call this by it's right name: social engineering by tax policy. san fran's government is going to use the power of the purse to coerce citizens into new behaviors.
i have little issue with that in principle, frankly -- this is a right and acceptable function of social institutions like city government. however, 1) i would like to think that they have better things to expend effort on than this silly bit of micromanagement; and 2) they should cut property tax revenues by the amount they gain in their goofy bag tax.
Sure, I think it's asinine. Still, disposable plastic bags are an environmental nuisance and a measurable burden on landfills. As long as incremental consumer waste disposal is essentially "free", paid through taxes or a flat fee, governments are going to try to address the distortions that creates with more distortions like a 17-cent tax on grocery bags.
Wait, isn't this a user fee for the waste disposal and public sanitaion infastructure that have to absorb these bags? I guess those don't count when the underlying system they're funding is a regulated one.
Short of moving trash disposal to the libertarian dream of unsubidized systems with unsubsidized user fees (curbside trashcans with coin slots, and the poor furtively shoving their garbage down sewer drains and dumping it into streams at 3 in the morning), how do you get the disposal of bags and other poorly-biodegradable and non-biodegradable waste properly paid for by the people who choose to use it and dispose of it? How do you get the heavy disposers either to pay their fair share and possibly drive some of those people to switch to something like those resuable string mesh bags that can be balled up in a purse or pocket when not in use?
I do wonder if the pendulum has swung back and the folks on the SF Commission for the Environment are just trying to bring back the biodegradable paper grocery bags that contributed to rapid deforestation. Feh.
Gosh, what a shock: Reason Writer opposes a tax, even one which could reasonably be classified as a user fee.
Hey slappy, when the government puts a charge on the private sector, that's a tax.
When the government charges you to use governmental services, that's a user fee.
"rapid deforestation"
Where? It's my understanding that private tree farms (forests) exist for the sole purpose of getting chopped down and made into...paper products.
Maybe s.m. is referring to "public" forests, owned by all, therefore no one, therefore subject to mismanagement and corruption?
people who shit more should pay more so that shit cleanup is more properly paid for by those who use it most. and it will keep poor people from shitting in the creak out back.
I do wonder if the pendulum has swung back and the folks on the SF Commission for the Environment are just trying to bring back the biodegradable paper grocery bags that contributed to rapid deforestation. Feh.
Taxing paper sacks is part of the proposal.
San Fran spends a lot of money cleaning up plastic bags that just end up strewn about the landscape
That's a broad statement. Got proof??
Will all those living in San Fran that are tired of being overrun by the plastic troops and would like to see their grass again please stand up?
Anyone, anyone? Bueller?
Do I have this right?
If a government collects 17 cents to dispose of a plastic bag when a consumer brings it to a plastic bag disposal facility, it's a user fee, and therefore in line with mainstream libertarian policymaking.
If a government collects 17 cents to dispose of a plastic bag at the store where the bag enters the consumer's posession en route to eventual disposal, it's a tax and therefore anathema to libertarian policymaking. And if it's too difficult or cost-inefficient to collect the fee later in the cycle because it's too easy for consumers to get away with shoving the bag down a sewer drain or tossing it in someone's yard, then it means government has no potentially positive role and the proper disposal and cleanup of plastic bags must remain an externality shouldered by the poor sap on the receiving end, whether a private landowner or the users of the clogged sewer and the pedestrians and drivers on the trash-strewn street -- or the street's owners, if it's been privatized. Nyah, nyah, nyah.
Which sounds a little like the argument for the Bush Administration's policies on air and water pollution, now that I think about it.
I thought if I littered, I could get ticketed by the police. Now, since I've paid a "plastic bag litter tax", I guess they're saying it's OK to litter because the cost of the cleanup in in the price of the bag. Sweet!
Street people used to routinely beg plastic bags from the staff running the registers at the last store I worked at. The owner made a rule that bags could not be given away without a purchase. Plastic bags don't grow on trees, y'know! Many of our more greenie customers brought our sturdy bags back to the store when they next came in to shop.
Obviously, the said street folk should be recruited to recover all those bags loose in the SF ecozone.
BTW, aren't there biodegradeble "plastic" bags, made from cornstarch or some such? Maybe those are the ones that break when you put canned goods in them.
Kevin
What the hell goes on up there? We have plastic bags here in phoenix and I don't notice plastic bags laying all over the place. I suppose they don't have street sweepers in San Francisco, what with all the hills they'd probably tip over.
I was in Italy a couple of months ago. The grocery charges 0.08 (Euro) for each plastic grocery bag. I don't know if this was just this store, national policy, or just the way things are done over there.
BTW, they were good bags that can be reused, not the cheap crappy ones from Kroger that get holes no matter what they contain, hence making them useless for anything but landfill.
Phil:
that's how it's done over there.
as for reuse, the whole foods paper ones are perfect for that, too.
This will certainly cut down on the oldsters demanding "double paper in plastic...don't make 'em too heavy!" I still hate them, 18 years after I stopped bagging.
But seriously, most city dwellers use plastic grocery bags for....wait for it...disposing trash at home! SF is asking for it; folks need to dress up like an indian chief (and a cop and a sailor), sneak onto a boat, and dump their bags in the bay! Enough is enough.
Industrial hemp could solve this problem. In fact, it can save the world!
jimbo,
You make a really good point in my opinion. City dwellers DO recycle their grocery bags for their own trash. I don't know anyone in Chicago who doesn't have a kitchen cabinet storing all of those bags for kitty litter and other garbage. Which is probably why we don't have them blowing all over the streets.
Isn't it enough of a hassle for urbanites to grocery shop anyway? The stores are overcrowded, you have to fight traffic or wait and fight for a bus seat or lug heavy items by foot in the snow. Now a tax on the bags? And I thought Michigan's enforced-recycling-through-enforced-bottle-deposit was a pain!
One more reason to stay away from San Franciso.
Time for someone to invent a bio-degradeable plastic bag...wonder why this hasn't been done already? No market for it, perhaps?
I was listening to the central planning department of the People's Republic of Santa Monica last night on KCRW--nothing surprises me. San Francisco's got nothin' on Santa Monica.
I wonder what process they went through to come up with the $0.17 figure. Why not $0.25? Why not $0.10? Did they pick it out of a hat?
The revenue that these taxes bring in should be used to buy re-usable hemp bags for everyone in San Fran.
Cause thats what those dirty hippies do they use the same bags every time cause they care. The won't be affected by the tax.
aren't paper bags biodegradable?
i don't really give a crap - i stopped recycling after I saw Penn & Teller's Bullshit! episode on it.
and last time i was in san fran, i don't recall seeing plastic bags everywhere.
live update from NYC: again, no real problem with plastic bags here - 8 million of us more or less manage to get them where they belong.
I have no problem with the tax - as long as you can show up at some government building, hand them 200 plastic bags and demand your $34. I bet I have an easy $100 dollars at home.
But, alas, that would make sense...
I think our discussion has proved that this policy isn't really about recycling, since there are more feasible and less intrusive ways of doing that. This is about San Francisco (once again) teaching people that they are bad and must do what the Big City says for their own good.
This is the same city that pays homeless people a monthly stipend and also has the highest sales tax rate in the state. On top of that SF is a city and a county so they get ALL the sales tax revenue generated.
If you have enough money to pay homeless people a fee to squat in the street I'd say you've got enough money to clean up plastic bags. Besides, the plastic bags smell better than what the homeless guys left in front of Laissez Faire Books last time I was there.
And let's not forget that one of the reasons there are so many plastic bags is a market response to the widely held perception that paper bags mean forest destruction.
For the Neanderthals who demand proof of plastic bag infestation, I invite you to stroll along one of the creeks here in Austin sometime after a storm - it's actually been 2 months since our last large rise in creeklevels, and the trees near the creeks are still full of plastic bags.
Someone mentioned deposits above, but on bottles, not bags. The Whole Foods Markets here give you a nickel off your order for every bag you bring back to the store (and use to carry your purchase back out again). This applies to your own hemp or whatever bags as well. I'm sure this saves them money too, as they'll give you thick paper bags with handles if you want paper rather than plastic...
Personally, I never have enough plastic bags - I run out of them every week (and realize it's time to go shopping again) because it's how I get the cat crap from the box to the trash. I'd rather "spend" a nickel than have to move the crap by hand.
-rj
"For the Neanderthals..."
Screw you, you prehistoric rat.
"Do I have this right?
If a government collects 17 cents to dispose of a plastic bag when a consumer brings it to a plastic bag disposal facility...
If a government collects 17 cents to dispose of a plastic bag at the store where the bag enters the consumer's posession en route to eventual disposal..."
Nope, dead wrong based on the following assumption: all those that have said plastic bags will bring them to a disposal facility and pay the 0.17 cents.
If the person CHOOSES to recycle the bag and pay the fee for disposal (aside: isn't this usually the other way around at a recycling facility?) that is vastly different than the State imposing that tax on you regardless of your decision to recycle. In the latter scenario you are forced to pay whether you recycle or not. It's a government imposition, aka tax, instead of a voluntary payment.
For the Neanderthals..
I know you are, but what am I?
Hey, is using "Neanderthal" as a term of disparagement racist? Evidence was that Neanderthals had bigger brains that we did, used tools, and cared for each other. Many no longer condier them a separate species, but another sub-species of Homo sapiens ("Homo sapiens neandetalis"). Sure, there are no Neanderthals around anymore to be offended, but does that make a difference? If a redneck yells the N-word in a forest where there's no one around to hear, is it still racist?
If no one else will speak for Neanderthals, I will. I'm founding the Neanderthal Anti-Defamation Society (NADS).
condier = consider
Re "statist hellhole" but otherwise OT, did anyone catch the AP story about SF banning smoking outdoors?
San Francisco supervisors voted yesterday to ban smoking in parks, public squares and other outdoor spaces that the city owns.
In an 8-3 vote, the Board of Supervisors agreed that the health and environmental risks associated with discarded cigarette butts and second-hand smoke merited extending existing indoor bans to outdoor spaces.
People caught smoking in parks or squares can be fined up to $100 on first offense, $200 for a second violation and $500 for each additional violation.
I live in Austin, I go walking every day and I haven't seen any plastic bags in the creeks. I did see some Neanderthals with plastic baggies, but that's a different subject. I also saw some Neanderthals making out in the bushes.
How about the city of San Francisco planning to ban the possession of all handguns and the sale of all firearms and ammunition in the city? In violation of the state's pre-emption law? Not only does it have a "living" Constitution, it has "living" laws as well.
For the Neanderthals..
lol --
leftist = smart
Link from Volokh for the above.
Better a neanderthal then a homo erectus.
Plastic bags are very handy for picking up and disposing dog shit. If they pass something like this where I live.. well, let's say I will let sleeping dog turds lie.
Perhaps they need to raise the dog tax.
SF isn't all that bad with the plastic shopping bags. The real culprits are the used condoms I see in damn near every alley and park as well as Pier 39 and the Embarcadero. Same with Seattle, Portland, LA, and yes, Austin. Can one imagine the lefty outrage if condoms had a disposal tax on them?
I live in San Francisco. I don't see many bags on the street... most of the ones I do see are on Division St or other places bums gather, but overall, it isn't an issue.
I do see lots of Bay Guardian and SF Weekly advertisers strewn about, though... if you walk past the bus stops on a Wednesday or Thursday, you'll often see where some person has left the copy they were reading loose on top of the rack when their bus came, ready for the paper to blow down the street. (Remarkable, really, for newspapers which call others environmental pigs.) Charging $.25 for these advertisers might help reduce actual litter.
Better yet, if The City That Knows How enforced its existing anti-advertising laws against ANSWER and other anti-choice groups, then this could help improve the ecology of the city. (They paste their posters where MacDonalds would not dare.) Instead we have Ammiano speaking at ANSWER's rallies, go figure. It's really strange in this city... definite bible-belt structure, just different content.
Brown paper bags - nice square shape sits upright to load, made of renewable wood fiber, rot when carelessly discarded.
San Francisco is stupid country.
Kevin P:
Bullshit. I rode my bike down Shoal Creek Blvd just yesterday and saw a ton of bags in the trees.
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