Putting Teeth Into the Law
A U.S. District judge in Manhattan has sided with Johnson & Johnson in its false-advertising lawsuit against Listerine. According to Judge Denny Chin (whose vaguely oral-sounding name should set off alarm bells among tort reform advocates), Pfizer Inc.'s claim that Listerine "is clinically proven to be as effective as floss at reducing plaque and gingivitis between the teeth" creates an implicit message that Listerine can replace floss, which Chin calls "false and misleading."
As a Rutgers alumnus I'm supposed to like Johnson & Johnson (or maybe I'm supposed to hate Johnson & Johnson; I forget), and I believe anybody who pays full price for Listerine, when absolutely identical generics are available at a third the price, is a chump. However, within the narrow wording of its ads, Pfizer is clearly not putting forth an implicit anti-floss message. Dig the extra detail from the New York Law Journal:
Pfizer's advertising campaign was originally targeted at the professional dental community but expanded in June to reach a broad consumer audience. A current television commercial says "Listerine's as effective as floss at fighting plaque and gingivitis. Clinical studies prove it."
The TV ads also say "there's no replacement for flossing," while print ads contain the words "floss daily" in small print. The American Dental Association approved Pfizer's campaign on the condition that the company not promote a message that consumers should stop flossing.
Pfizer sponsored the clinical studies referred to in its ads. In the two six-month studies, twice-daily rinsing with Listerine was shown to be more effective than flossing among subjects with mild or moderate gingivitis, but researchers in both cases expressed concern that subjects might not be employing proper flossing technique. The studies also did not include anyone with severe gingivitis or periodontitis, a more serious gum disease.
Any competent dentist will tell you to floss and gargle (and not with Scope for God's sake: you might as well be rinsing with Dr. Pepper). If there is an un-level playing field in advertising the two products, there are several reasons for it. Few people are thinking about the longterm problems of plaque and gingivitis when they brush. In terms of immediate reward, Listerine is an easy sell because its aesthetic payoff—the pleasing sensation that your mouth is as devoid of life as the surface of the moon—is immediate and well known. (This is why I don't see the point in flavored Listerines.) To advertise flossing, however, you've got to show the actual process, which means a) you've got to acknowledge that people should be using dental tape, not floss; and b) you've got to show the disgusting gunk that comes out from between your teeth and gums. It's aesthetically pleasing (though laborious) to get that stuff out of your own mouth, but I'd doubt anybody wants to watch it on TV—not in this Tivo age.
Does anybody base their dental care decisions on the threat of plaque or gingivitis? (I'm pretty conscientious about tooth care, and I don't even know what plaque and gingivitis are.) These medical terms have always struck me as losing ad propositions. The reality is that even the best brushers, flossers, and rinsers end up with mouths full of broken crockery—the incompatibility of human lifespans and toothspans is one of the best arguments against intelligent design I know. We'll solve that problem when shark DNA can be used to create better dentitia in humans. Meanwhile, shore those fragments against your ruin: brush, floss, and rinse every day.
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A few years ago I heard that British scientists were working on a vaccine to guard against the bacteria that cause cavities. Does anyone know what ever happened to that project?
Does anyone know what ever happened to that project?
Crushed by the Dental faction of the Illuminati.
If you were at Rutgers now, the anticorporate activists would probably drive you to sympathize with J&J.
"The reality is that even the best brushers, flossers, and rinsers end up with mouths full of broken crockery?the incompatibility of human lifespans and toothspans is one of the best arguments against intelligent design I know."
Or, Tim, the irish (known for their quality dentin) are simply intelligent design's next step in human development.
i use diluted food grade hydrogen peroxide and baking soda as a "toothpaste'
look at the ingredients in those commercial toothpastes and see what chemicals you are grinding into your mouth
I remember watching a PBS show a few years back about "alternative" presidential candidates. They had The Hemp Lady as well as guy that apparently lives in DC and walks around with a big toothbrush scrubbing landmarks like the Washington Monument in a campaign to raise dental awareness and fight the cavity creeps.
Anyway if anyone remembers the show or the guy's name, raise your hand.
I believe anybody who pays full price for Listerine, when absolutely identical generics are available at a third the price, is a chump
That's funny - my parents are both dentists, and they believe anyone who uses mouthwash other than Listerine is making a mistake. Apparently it has some "essential oils" thing going on that makes it far more effective. They also tell their clients to floss, and if they won't do that that, to use Listerine, and only Listerine.
Did a Goggle search and found this Wired article on possible future developments in Dentistry:
http://www.wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,63510,00.html
Cellphones are in the works to notify the presence of foul mouth odor...Can't imagine what the'll do next!?!
" I believe anybody who pays full price for Listerine, when absolutely identical generics are available at a third the price, is a chump "
I use listerine and i have looked at the store brands. They didn't say anything about "killing germs on contact" or anything like that only listerine did. My guess is they would advertise that since most customers would think of that as a good thing. If it had exactly the same effect I would use the generic stuff since its cheaper (although more then one third of the listerine price).
I also like those listerine strips although I am not sure if they kill any germs. I just like the taste mostly.
I wonder if Pfizer have the phrase "kills germs on contact" (or some variation of that) copyrighted? I'm not sure that phrase can protected under copyright law, but that would explain why other brands don't have it on their packages. The Wal-mart brand that I bought has the phrase: "kills germs that cause plaque, gingivitis and bad breath" on it, but not "on contact."
After the "tartar control" Listerine came out a while back, my dentist told me I should use it and that it was better than any other over the counter mouthwash.
The Wal-mart brand that I bought has the phrase: "kills germs that cause plaque, gingivitis and bad breath" on it, but not "on contact."
Well shoot. That would have been helpful to know. I've been dipping a voodoo cast of my mouth in it all these years.
Does anybody base their dental care decisions on the threat of plaque or gingivitis?
Humerous thread. Having a dental hygeinist, I certainly know what they are. It must have been all the pamphlets I mysteriously received in the mail at college. That plus the scare stories of my maternal grandmother who had to have every tooth pulled at the age of 40. That'll do it.
That said, this lawsuit sounds very bogus.
My dentist gives me free Listerine. I guess he's a chump.
Whoa -- I just bought mouthwash for the first time in like 10 years tonight. I was at Target, and looking at Listerine. Then I saw Target-branded mouthwash sitting right next to it at about 1/3 the price! And the active ingredients were exactly the same -- in the same quantities.
Here they are (in case you want to make your own mouthwash):
Eucalyptol 0.092%, Mehthol 0.042%, Methyl salicylate 0.060%, Thymol 0.064%.
Like I said, they are identical on the Listerine and the Target-knockoffs.
I also bought dental floss, an electric toothbrush, and a tongue scraper.
I'm going through root-planing, and I don't want to do that again. One happy side effect of root planing is having the taste of your own charred gumflesh linger in your mouth for the better part of a day.
Whoa -- I just bought mouthwash for the first time in like 10 years tonight. I was at Target, and looking at Listerine. Then I saw Target-branded mouthwash sitting right next to it at about 1/3 the price! And the active ingredients were exactly the same -- in the same quantities.
Here they are (in case you want to make your own mouthwash):
Eucalyptol 0.092%, Mehthol 0.042%, Methyl salicylate 0.060%, Thymol 0.064%.
Like I said, they are identical on the Listerine and the Target-knockoffs.
This is the point I was making about generics. Please, people, don't think I'm advocating Scope, Rembrandt, Therasol, Cepacol, etc. You want a mouthwash with the ingredients listed above, in the percentages listed above. Whether it's Listerine or a generic isn't as important as that you get a mouthwash made from that stuff. Listerine has been around since 1879, its patent expired more than a century ago, and you can get perfectly good clones from Walgreens, CVS, etc.
And stay away from Scope, or, according to West Henrietta Baptist Church, you'll be no different than Pontius Pilate.
"...shore those fragments against your ruin: brush, floss, and rinse every day."
Datta. Dayadhvam. Damyatta.
Shantih
shantih
shantih
Tim,
You seriously don't know what plaque and gingivitis are?
I may never be able to take your biologically-oriented posts seriously again. 😉
Ok next time I am in rite aid or CVS I am going to look more closely at this stuff. I checked my listerine and stinkmouth was right about the active ingredients.
I am still waiting for gaius marius to post here with some crazy reason why this is just more evidence in support of his views that:
- western civilization is in decline
- individualism is a disaster and its excess is one of the things that will soon bring about the aforementioned demise of the decadent west; causing us to be eclipsed by some less individualistic and therefore more enlightened civilization like say China or North Korea.
- All the evil in human history is really Friedrich Nietzsche's fault
Note: I have probably exaggerated and/or misrepresented gauis's views but I just think anti-individualists should be made fun of.
It seems that dentists are as knowledgable about mouthwashes and fluoride as doctors are about prescription and OTC drugs.
I also like the fact ( or is it an old wives' tale?) that Listerine was invented as a hair tonic. God bless the guy who decided to put hair tonic in his mouth.
Russ D
It's an old wives' tale. According to the link Tim provided above it was invented as a surgical antiseptic.
Always follow The Onion's dental hygiene tips:
-If flossing causes your gums to bleed, wait at least six months before attempting to floss again.
Whoa -- I just bought mouthwash for the first time in like 10 years tonight. I was at Target, and looking at Listerine. Then I saw Target-branded mouthwash sitting right next to it at about 1/3 the price! And the active ingredients were exactly the same -- in the same quantities.
Here they are (in case you want to make your own mouthwash):
Eucalyptol 0.092%, Mehthol 0.042%, Methyl salicylate 0.060%, Thymol 0.064%.
Like I said, they are identical on the Listerine and the Target-knockoffs.
You not only have to look at the active ingredients, but also the inactve ingredient. The active ingredients are what kill the plaque and gingvitis bacteria. The inactve ingredients can easily change the effectiveness of the active ingredients.
thanks