Debateblogging: Strong Alliances

Bush (approximately): "He says we didn't have allies? What does he say to Tony Blair? What does he say to Aleksander Kwasniewski of Poland?"

President Aleksander Kwasniewski of Poland: "They deceived us about the weapons of mass destruction, that's true. We were taken for a ride."

Comments

[J]

What, no debateblogging about W's use of one of the most time-tested and disgusting rhetorical tactics in the politician's playbook - the personal story! Mr. Bush related a moving story about his meeting with one Missy Johnson, who has a loved one (or loved ones) in Iraq.
The interesting thing about is that what he said makes it sound like, after having sent her husband to Iraq, now he's banging her. I may have misheard but this is more or less what I got:

"It's hard work to try and love her as best as I can knowing my decision had put her loved ones in harm's way..."

That's not very alpha male of him, although it is quite biblical.

[mtc]

For lack of a better thread to post on, i've got bush starting a segment no less then three times with "how can you say wrong war, wrong time, wrong place." And there's still time to go!

[Brad Reed]

LOL NICE catch Julian!

[i have two lines to repeat]

uhhhhh...mmm...uuuu...my opponent can't lead while saying wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time...i make tough decisons

[i have two lines to repeat]

uhhhhh...mmm...uuuu...my opponent can't lead while saying wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time...i make tough decisons

[Brad Reed]

Also, I didn't realize that we could win the war by speaking clearly.

Oh and, "not sending mixed signals." George Bush's America: we may be unilateral, but we ain't no c***-tease.

[madpad]

I already expect that:

1. Kerry supporters are going to see Kerry as the winner.

2. Bush supporters are going to see Bush as the winner.

As an admitted independent who doesn't like either candidate I'm surprised at how well Kerry is doing...and how poorly Bush is.

I've also noticed a lot of the "let's add 30 seconds" bits in response to Bush pouncing on Kerry.

Does this make Bush look aggressive or defensive?

[i have two lines to repeat]

kerry must be pissing himself from excitement like one of those yippy little dogs relative to gw's hemming, hawing and befuddlement...never would i have thought geo could be this awful and unclear

[The Lonewacko Blog]

I'm kinda live-blogging it here.

Excerpt:

Rip van Winkle: "This guy is president of the United States?"

[J]

I like Bush adding 30 seconds, because he's doing as much as he can to have an actual debate within some really stupid guidelines. But then, I wonder which side was pushing more for guidelines that would limit the hot debating action....

I've been planning to be a very reluctant Kerry voter, in spite of the fact that this would necessarily and regrettably involve voting for John Kerry. I've also been more impressed with Kerry than Bush - I think Kerry's done a fairly good job of explaining some of his alleged flip-flops when Bush has brought them up.

[mtc]

I dunno madpad, somebody over on NRO just hated-to-admit that kerry was winning.

[madpad]

Thanx mtc...now I've seen EVERYTHING

KERRY'S PULLING AHEAD AGAIN [Jonah Goldberg]
I hate to say it.
Posted at 10:04 PM

Whodathought...

[Bill]

As a person not voting for either of the debaters, I thought the debate was a draw.

[Buck]

In other words, Bill, your mind is made up. We got it.

[Bart]

I think Nader not speaking beat Bush.

[joe]

Three lines, fella.

"It's hard work."

[darnell the smell]

Was it me, or did Kerry raise his hand at least twice asking for a 30 second rebuttal, and Lehrer went right on to Bush? Now I don't think this was a deliberate effort to silence Kerry, but it did annoy me, as did Bush speaking up before Kerry was finished at one point.

[Josh]

Poland plans on pulling troops out of Iraq at the end of 2004.

[Rick Barton]

Bush: "That was a hard debate. I said every thing that Karl told me to say but it wasn't enough stuff so I kept repeating myself. Can we bring out Osama yet and show him to everyone?"

Cheney: "I told you before. Only if Karl says that we need to and then you have to get permission from Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz first.

Bush: "Can I hit him once with a baseball bat?"

Cheney: "I still can't believe you're the predident."

Bush: ""Just one hit with a bat?"

Cheney: "You really are a sad little man."

Bush: "I used to own a baseball team ya know"

Cheney: " Get out of my office George"

[a citizen]

Why do you people hate America so much? BUSH WON. End of story.

[Rick Barton]

Bush let the neocons play us for idiots and Kerry proposes to fix it by playing other nations for idiots.

[Bob]

Bush wants to put a leash on his daughters? Isn't that a bit perverted? Maybe he is into leashes as he probably gave direct instructions to those goons that tortured the Iraqi prisoners.

[quebecoise]

Patriotboy (http://www.patriotboy.blogspot.com) catches another dirty trick:

CNN's "undecided" voter

I needed to calm down after George drove the John Deere into my bedroom yesterday, so I kicked on CNN. I find American Morning very reassuring. A few minutes of Bill Hemmer, Heidi Collins, and Jack Cafferty telling me that Our Leader is boldly and resolutely handling the challenges facing America is all the tonic I need to put me in a proper frame of mind for the rest of the day.

Early in the program, Mr. Hemmer interviewed three undecided Florida voters about their hopes for last night's debate. The fact that at least two of the three seemed to be fairly intelligent made me wonder just how undecided they really were--after all, you'd have to be a complete idiot to be unable to choose between one of the candidates by now.

I found it more than a bit curious that one of undecideds, Edward Martos, is a graduate student in public administration at the University of Miami. Public administration? You'd think that he'd certainly be a bit more informed about politics and public policy that the average guy. How could he still be undecided?

After a little googling, I learned that Mr. Martos seems to be leading a double life. While claiming to be the politically independent president of a non-partisan campus group called the Council for Democracy, he is also very involved with the College Republicans, having served on committees to draft the UMCR constitution and organize a veterans memorial committee. He has also served as the Assistant Editor in Chief for the CR newsletter, Eye On Politics.

"Perhaps," I thought, "there are two Edward Martoses attending UM," but then I learned that the College Republican Edward Martos promoted Council for Democracy events at College Republican meetings. Certainly, it's the same guy.

The picture sealed it for me. The College Republican Edward Martos is the guy I saw on CNN. He's supposed to be on again this morning. Watch it and see for yourself.

Edward Martos is my new hero. He's been able to fool a lot of people, including Bill Hemmer, into believing that he's an independent when he's actually a GOP foot soldier and patriot. He'll go far in a party that reveres Karl Rove.
posted by Gen. JC Christian, Patriot | 1:45 AM

[quebecoise]

Patriotboy (http://www.patriotboy.blogspot.com) catches another dirty trick:

CNN's "undecided" voter

I needed to calm down after George drove the John Deere into my bedroom yesterday, so I kicked on CNN. I find American Morning very reassuring. A few minutes of Bill Hemmer, Heidi Collins, and Jack Cafferty telling me that Our Leader is boldly and resolutely handling the challenges facing America is all the tonic I need to put me in a proper frame of mind for the rest of the day.

Early in the program, Mr. Hemmer interviewed three undecided Florida voters about their hopes for last night's debate. The fact that at least two of the three seemed to be fairly intelligent made me wonder just how undecided they really were--after all, you'd have to be a complete idiot to be unable to choose between one of the candidates by now.

I found it more than a bit curious that one of undecideds, Edward Martos, is a graduate student in public administration at the University of Miami. Public administration? You'd think that he'd certainly be a bit more informed about politics and public policy that the average guy. How could he still be undecided?

After a little googling, I learned that Mr. Martos seems to be leading a double life. While claiming to be the politically independent president of a non-partisan campus group called the Council for Democracy, he is also very involved with the College Republicans, having served on committees to draft the UMCR constitution and organize a veterans memorial committee. He has also served as the Assistant Editor in Chief for the CR newsletter, Eye On Politics.

"Perhaps," I thought, "there are two Edward Martoses attending UM," but then I learned that the College Republican Edward Martos promoted Council for Democracy events at College Republican meetings. Certainly, it's the same guy.

The picture sealed it for me. The College Republican Edward Martos is the guy I saw on CNN. He's supposed to be on again this morning. Watch it and see for yourself.

Edward Martos is my new hero. He's been able to fool a lot of people, including Bill Hemmer, into believing that he's an independent when he's actually a GOP foot soldier and patriot. He'll go far in a party that reveres Karl Rove.
posted by Gen. JC Christian, Patriot | 1:45 AM

[stripes]

Can anyone tell me why President Bush found it necessary to joke about leashing his daughters? i bet that was the gaffe heard round the world but not acknowedged by our "fair and balanced " media. i thought Senator Kerry had a good comeback though; "I've learned not to do that." There's your character comparison right there.

[Tripp]

stripes,

I thought that little exchange to be very, very telling. It was off the cuff, unrehearsed, and spoke volumes about the characters of Bush and Kerry.

It is common knowlege that Bush's daughters have been a little rebellious. Nothing serious, but there you go.

Bush knows they are too big to spank, but wishes he could leash them. Kerry knows enough not to do that. Meanwhile, the rest of America (and the world) remembers the dog leash picture from Abu Ghraib. Yuck!

[Syd]

I trust they have had their shots and he cleans up after them.

[Marshall]

New here and found my way through my favourite site, antwar.com.

I have a some questions about the debate maybe someone can help.

Do you also pick up that Bush has anger management problems? His lips draw tight and he seems about to blow a gasket on occasion. Seems he does not suffer criticism well. Thanks to the network for breaking the rules to give us that "illegal" perspective.

Did any one else notice Bush pulled off 'one' five-syllable word, over which he looked way too proud of himself, almost adolescent, for not screwing it up. I swear I saw him look gleefully left to his handlers for approval of this intellectual feat.

I personally chuckled over hearing Bush say he (paraphrasing)" better understands World leaders and what they want and knows how to communicate with them over foreign policy", considering that before his Presidency he had never been anywhere internationally (not even to Paris or London), and gives the reason that he had no interest. Anyone else find that comical?

What about those mind-lock pauses, where Bush seems to freeze while recalling the facts and the rehearsed party line. His eyes appear to almost cross during some moments that seem to wrench his brain. Does Bush remind anyone else of Alfred E Newman from Mad Mag during these moments?

Anyone notice Kerry referred to some KGB location in Moscow as "Treblinsk" probably meaning Treblinka, a Nazi war camp in Warsaw Poland. Bush as usual misspoke the English language all over the place, something we have mostly become too accustomed to.

[Tim]

Interesting, Kwasniewski has certainly been an equal opportunity critic.

[Thomas O Crawford]

Though W was clearly proud of his multisylabic accomplishment, "The enemy understands a free Iraq will be a major defeat in their ideology of hatred. That's why they're fighting so vociferously," actually is a nonsensical statement. "Vociferous" refers to an inappropriate loudness, a synonym would be "clamorous". I would expect that he would have been better served to use the word "assiduously", "diligently", or, if he wanted to be understood, "... so hard."

But then, sesquipedialian "C" students at Yale use such words as a cover for shallowness of thought.

[Thomas O Crawford]

Though W was clearly proud of his multisylabic accomplishment, "The enemy understands a free Iraq will be a major defeat in their ideology of hatred. That's why they're fighting so vociferously," actually is a nonsensical statement. "Vociferous" refers to an inappropriate loudness, a synonym would be "clamorous". I would expect that he would have been better served to use the word "assiduously", "diligently", or, if he wanted to be understood, "... so hard."

But then, sesquipedialian "C" students at Yale use such words as a cover for shallowness of thought.

[Publius]

The 5-syllable word which he *did* pronounce correctly was "transformational". I wondered how the hell he managed to pull that off. Then I remembered, "transformational" is a word from fundamentalist Xtian jargon. It's normally, "the transformational power of prayer", but Chimpy changed it to "the transformational power of freedom". Apparently trying to shore up support amongst his fundamentalist base.

[Dorothy M. Ligon]

Poland:
Just 1/2 hour after the debate, the ingenious Jon Stewart brilliantly kicked that reference out of the park. Don't miss it in replays or tapes of The Daily Show.

[stripes]

plan 2. infiltrate the churches like the evangelicals, that want to go to war so bad. each of us pick a local one, go to the meetings and sermans and see what they are up to. we could subvert them into moderates. like it?

[Marek]

Polish President strongly supported Bush in Iraq. What is he saying now ?

The New York Tomes, Sept.4

WARSAW, Sept. 1 - The president of Poland, one of America's closest European allies, has made a rare and impassioned plea to Washington to be "flexible, open and gracious." In a veiled criticism of United States foreign policy, President Alexander Kwasniewski said he did not want to see "America take the ideas of the neoconservatives of isolationism, to have full dominance in the world and to play a divide and rule policy. It is a mistake."

The president's remarks were made on Wednesday after a long interview in which he set out his view of Poland's role in Europe. When asked about Iraq and the United States, the president switched to a more reflective and personal mood. The decision to support the American-led war against Iraq, was "one of the most difficult decisions in my life," he said. "But I am sure it was the right decision." Asked if he has any regrets over it, he replied, "Next question, please."

With polls typically showing about 70 percent of Poles calling for bringing the troops home, Mr. Kwasniewski said he preferred to wait until Iraq had a new government installed. "That will change the role of the troops, from occupation to peacekeeping," he said, implying that under those circumstances it would be easier for other countries to contribute soldiers while some of the Polish contingent could go home.

[On Friday, the Polish defense minister, Jerzy Szmajdzinski, announced the withdrawal of troops from the province of Karbala, which has been the scene of fighting between the Americans and the Mahdi Army of the rebel Shiite cleric Moktada al-Sadr.]

The last few months have apparently weighed heavily on Mr. Kwasniewski, a popular public figure whose former career as a Communist youth leader and minister took place when Poland was sandwiched between two superpowers.

"America is not the first superpower we have known," he noted. "But sometimes, the character of a superpower is a problem, not so much for us but for the Americans to understand they are strong enough, clever enough, have enough influence and are creative enough to be accepted as a superpower."

The outburst, however mild, was extremely rare for a politician in a country that has been a staunch ally of Washington. But the twin acts of joining the European Union and a decision by Washington to impose visas on Poles have led to some soul-searching inside the presidential palace.

Mr. Kwasniewski said he felt "hurt" by the visa decision. "Of course, as a realistic politician I understand the situation. But as a man, a human being, a friend of America, I do not understand it. In my opinion, a big country should be open, and sometimes more flexible, more gracious."

Now that Poland is inside the European Union, it sees how Europe must play a greater role in defense matters, Mr. Kwasniewski said. He apparently sees the recent decision by the United States to withdraw tens of thousands of troops from Europe as a sign to Europe to spend more on defending its own interests.

"This policy means that it is necessary to spend more money to solve Europe's problems, not to wait for the Americans in the Balkans, or in Moldova, or for bringing democracy to Belarus. This is our task."

[Marek]

Polish President strongly supported Bush in Iraq. What is he saying now ?

The New York Times, Sept.4

WARSAW, Sept. 1 - The president of Poland, one of America's closest European allies, has made a rare and impassioned plea to Washington to be "flexible, open and gracious." In a veiled criticism of United States foreign policy, President Alexander Kwasniewski said he did not want to see "America take the ideas of the neoconservatives of isolationism, to have full dominance in the world and to play a divide and rule policy. It is a mistake."

The president's remarks were made on Wednesday after a long interview in which he set out his view of Poland's role in Europe. When asked about Iraq and the United States, the president switched to a more reflective and personal mood. The decision to support the American-led war against Iraq, was "one of the most difficult decisions in my life," he said. "But I am sure it was the right decision." Asked if he has any regrets over it, he replied, "Next question, please."

With polls typically showing about 70 percent of Poles calling for bringing the troops home, Mr. Kwasniewski said he preferred to wait until Iraq had a new government installed. "That will change the role of the troops, from occupation to peacekeeping," he said, implying that under those circumstances it would be easier for other countries to contribute soldiers while some of the Polish contingent could go home.

[On Friday, the Polish defense minister, Jerzy Szmajdzinski, announced the withdrawal of troops from the province of Karbala, which has been the scene of fighting between the Americans and the Mahdi Army of the rebel Shiite cleric Moktada al-Sadr.]

The last few months have apparently weighed heavily on Mr. Kwasniewski, a popular public figure whose former career as a Communist youth leader and minister took place when Poland was sandwiched between two superpowers.

"America is not the first superpower we have known," he noted. "But sometimes, the character of a superpower is a problem, not so much for us but for the Americans to understand they are strong enough, clever enough, have enough influence and are creative enough to be accepted as a superpower."

The outburst, however mild, was extremely rare for a politician in a country that has been a staunch ally of Washington. But the twin acts of joining the European Union and a decision by Washington to impose visas on Poles have led to some soul-searching inside the presidential palace.

Mr. Kwasniewski said he felt "hurt" by the visa decision. "Of course, as a realistic politician I understand the situation. But as a man, a human being, a friend of America, I do not understand it. In my opinion, a big country should be open, and sometimes more flexible, more gracious."

Now that Poland is inside the European Union, it sees how Europe must play a greater role in defense matters, Mr. Kwasniewski said. He apparently sees the recent decision by the United States to withdraw tens of thousands of troops from Europe as a sign to Europe to spend more on defending its own interests.

"This policy means that it is necessary to spend more money to solve Europe's problems, not to wait for the Americans in the Balkans, or in Moldova, or for bringing democracy to Belarus. This is our task."

[Marshall]

"US says corner turned in Iraq"
Nicolas Rothwell, Middle East correspondent
October 04, 2004"

...left into a one way street?

J.F.K for President.

[Marshall]

Do you folks, (expecially Thomas O and Publius) detect a split in the GOP camp? It seems the Conservative moderates are lining up against the neo-crazies. What do you make of Rummy's statement yesterday on "NO HARD EVIDENCE"? How is this linked, if linked? Or is he taking a shot at undermining the Pit Bull VP in today's debate against Batman's Robin? There seems to be a lot of running in circles, re-defining positions, or are they eyeing the anchor rope, for a jump-ship scurry-down? Pls enlighten me!

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