Kim Sun-il Killed

Kim Sun-il, the South Korean being held hostage by an al Qaeda-linked terrorist group, has been killed, reports Yahoo news.

The Korean government, which negotiated for Kim's release, is standing firm:

In a dispatch from Baghdad, South Korea's Yonhap news agency quoted an "informed source" as saying that negotiations with the kidnappers collapsed over the South Korean government's refusal to drop its plan to send troops.

"As a condition for starting negotiations for Kim's release, the kidnappers demanded that South Korea announce that it would retract its troop dispatch plan," the source was quoted as saying. "This was a condition the South Korean government could not accept. As the talks bogged down, the kidnappers apparently resorted to an extreme measure."

Whole story here. As with the Nick Berg and Daniel Pearl murders, I think it's more likely than not that such heinous acts will actually intensify military resolve in Iraq, rather than weaken it.

Comments

[a1]

"As with the Nick Berg and Daniel Pearl murders, I think it's more likely than not that such heinous acts will actually intensify military resolve in Iraq, rather than weaken it."

Two words to refute this right-wing meme:

Fahrenheit

911

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Nice zinger, except 911 is a number, not a word.

[Jason Ligon]

"Two words to refute this right-wing meme:

Fahrenheit

911"

Because Michael Moore is famous for encapsulating the breadth of American opinion?

[meep]

You've got to admit, these terrorist guys sure know how to blow a strategic social advantage. Every hostage they kill justifies the death of a couple hundred Iraqis in many Americans' eyes, and helps remind us (against the efforts of most media) that the methods and goals of the bad guys here really are qualitatively different from our own.

Even if innocent prisoners were killed in Abu G., we didn't film and broadcast it. And as a society, we expressed shame over those evils. The issue being illuminated is that Arab society and their leaders refuse to express regret for reprehensible means if they approve of the ends.

Maybe for their next brilliant PR move they'll vivisect babies for primetime.

[scott]

"As with the Nick Berg and Daniel Pearl murders, I think it's more likely than not that such heinous acts will actually intensify military resolve in Iraq, rather than weaken it."

I think this is true. Brutal murder of random hostages serves to dehumanize Islamists, making them easy to be seen as a barbaric, bloodthirsty enemy that should be killed.

[spoodge]

"Two words to refute this right-wing meme:
Fahrenheit 911"

Two word that refute Fahrenheit 911 -

Christopher Hitchens.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/

[Ken Shultz]

"As with the Nick Berg and Daniel Pearl murders, I think it's more likely than not that such heinous acts will actually intensify military resolve in Iraq, rather than weaken it."

I suspect you're right in regards to American resolve, but I'm not so sure about the South Koreans.

I've sometimes wondered if the terrorists were doing the beheading thing in the hope of strengthening rather than weakening American resolve. Did OSL hit the WTC because he thought it would make us recoil from the Middle East? Maybe, but he might have done it hoping to instigate a brutal response too. I can imagine OSL, if that was his intent, being quite frustrated with Clinton's tepid responses to his attacks. I've seen other terrorist groups in and around Palestine launch attacks on Israel which are widely interpreted as having been driven by a desire to instigate brutality rather than a desire to break Israeli resolve.

But this is different. America is already unpopular with a significant portion of the South Korean people, and I can't imagine that this is going to play well there. I don't claim to have my thumb on the pulse of South Korea, but aren't they likely to feel like they've already got enough to worry about without making sacrifices just to get Al Qaeda on their case?

[Dave]

How dare you mention this story!? I demand more photos of men with women's underwear on their heads; that's the REAL outrage in the Middle East.

[hey]

I am waiting for the Anti-war.com brigade (and the usual group of anti-neocons and anti-semites) to bring up the evil influence of South Koreans, how South Koreans are evil because they built a fence, how much of the US GDP the South Koreans get in military aid, how we should withdraw and let the North Koreans invade, how the fact that North Koreans are savages is the fault of the evil US and evil S. Koreans and most especially the Korean ancestory of the evil neocons.

Basically I want them to spin how this dude getting his head chopped off was ours and South Korea's fault.

[thoreau]

hey-

I won't be blaming the US for this guy's death, but if you want me to criticize our involvement in the Koreas, I have long-maintained (and probably said at least once or twice on this forum) that South Korea is an industrialized country that should pay for its own defense against an impoverished neighbor. It's just that the situation in the Koreas hasn't generated as much discussion on this forum.

Does that mean I'm racist against Asians?

[hey]

thoreau: But notice that I didn't list that reason in my rant. Sorry, please play again. And invite Rick Barton (aka Justin R.) in the pool.

[meep]

We aren't in Korea for Korea; we're there to remind China not to get too excited and try to turn its economic expansion into another geographical one.

KJI is just an idiot pawn in a much larger game.

[thoreau]

hey-

Your list of requests included:

I am waiting for the Anti-war.com brigade (and the usual group of anti-neocons and anti-semites) to bring up...how much of the US GDP the South Koreans get in military aid, how we should withdraw and let the North Koreans invade...

And I basically said that there's no reason for the US to pay for the defense of an industrialized and wealthy country facing an impoverished neighbor.

Where did I go wrong?

[thoreau]

We aren't in Korea for Korea; we're there to remind China not to get too excited and try to turn its economic expansion into another geographical one.

KJI is just an idiot pawn in a much larger game.

Great. Another poster convinced that the US government is a very savvy player in the game of international chess.

[joe]

"How dare you mention this story!? I demand more photos of men with women's underwear on their heads; that's the REAL outrage in the Middle East."

It's worth noting that such a statement has not actually been made by anyone who opposed Bush's policies; however, in the reverse situation (when Abu Ghraib photos were all over the news), those who supported Bush's policies DID made the reverse argument (stop showing these photos, show pictures of our enemies being bad), loudly and insistently, for as long as the media's attention lasted.

hey, you're going to be waiting a long time. But if I had to argue from your position, I'd be hoping for an idiot to give me a break, too.

[Lowdog]

No, but you did say this, hey: "...how much of the US GDP the South Koreans get in military aid, how we should withdraw and let the North Koreans invade..."

Sounds like thoreau did read your rant.

I think we should pull out of Israel, S Korea, and just about everywhere else, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't gladly put a few holes in the guys who are doing this beheading business against (probably) innocent civilians.

[Ken Shultz]

Slow down thoreau; you're way ahead of me. I'm still trying to get past the grouping of those of us who disagree with the neocons with anti-semites.

[meep]

It's not chess, it's economic game theory.

And you're the delusional one if you think that the US isn't the single major deterrent to Beijing taking Taiwan and whatever they want of Korea. Who else would stop them? Seriously, who? France would pass a UN condemnation and then head to Beijing for the party.

[meep]

And if we'd followed the simplistic economic argument for not stationing our military in other advanced countries, all of Europe would be speaking Russian today.

[thoreau]

meep-

You assume that if the US slowly withdrew support from other advanced countries these countries wouldn't think to build their own defenses. I suspect that Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan could develop sufficient defenses. Not overnight, but I'm not proposing to withdraw overnight.

[Russ D]

spoodge:

Thanks for the link. I noticed Hitchens slags on Moore for having a fact-checking staff, as if he's above such a thing. (The correction mentioned at the bottom of Hitchens' own article seemed ironic.)

Hitchens also slags on Moore, I think fairly, by quoting Orwell's "Notes on Nationalism" yet seems oblivious to how much Orwell's essay applies to Hitchens' own writing.

hey: you make yourself look like a conspriacy theorist when you suggest that Barton and Raimondo are the same person.

[Nick]

"I suspect you're right in regards to American resolve, but I'm not so sure about the South Koreans."

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=internetNews&storyID=5485390

Ignore for the moment that they were posting on the wrong website and concentrate on what they were writing:
"I was not anti-Iraqi. In truth I was little bit anti-American but now I am anti with all my soul/body/money your nation and your people and your religion,"
Also if you check the poll on that fake Al Jazeera site they were posting to, 74% say Korea should stay in Iraq. I'm not sure what population that poll represents (Korean, American, European, Arabic, who reads Fake Al Jazeera News anyways?), nor do I know if the above quote is representative of Korea as a whole, but I wouldn't be surprised. Anger is a very natural reaction to such an action.

[meep]

thoreau,

I think to a large extent it a just a matter of scale. S. Korea could (and should) increase its own defenses, but the fact is that China will always be able to crush them it they wanted to. Likewise, France has a relatively advanced military, but who thinks that they could repel an American assault--especially if we shared a border?

No matter how well defended, the psychological effect of even a token military presence in such places is more important than the actual military might.

Nick's comments are also relevant. I've never understood why some people assume that any other country will cut and run at the first loss in the middle east. Fortunately, not all countries are Spain. Anger is the natural response to such behavior, and not all countries are so quick to blame themselves, or America, for the bad behavior of lunatics.

[thoreau]

Meep-

If the goal is a balance of power with China then a token military presence and a mutual defense pact with Japan, Taiwan, and South Korea should be sufficient. There's no need to have troops poised to fight off a North Korean invasion. And the key word in a mutual defense pact is mutual. We promise to help them if the sh*t hits the fan, and they build some forces at their own expense to carry their own weight in this bargain.

[meep]

Then we basically agree. With the per capita broadband penetration rates they have, Maybe I should move over there and give some tax dollars to the cause.

[Lisa Simpson]

What's the old adage about not wrestling with a pig? The provocativeness of these acts suggests that Al-Qaeda isn't aiming for victory or the world's sympathy -- just an endless fight/jihad. What's earthly victory compared to an honorable death and Allah's eternal sexed-up heaven? (If they still believe that crap -- do they?)

Sorry for the porcine reference, any Muslims, but Al-Qaeda is definitely the proverbial pig here. Now if we could just divide and conquer the pigs, turning them against one another...

[jdog]

"Now, I will show how an Italian dies".

Fabrizio Quattrocchi

[Dan H.]

If the U.S. pulled out of Asia, it's trivially easy to predict what will happen: Within five years, Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan will have nuclear weapons. Probably within two years.

Yeah, that's a great result. Just what we need - a new nuclear arms race in one of the most unstable regions of the world. Because Pakistan and India and China and North Korea are not going to just sit around watching these countries build new nuclear forces.

Isolationism is a dead philosophy. The modern world is far too interconnected, and the results of conflict so wide-ranging, that it would be suicidal lunacy to simply withdraw from it all and hope for the best. Perhaps we could tolerate a war between China and Korea 100 years ago. If Pakistan and India wanted to go toe-to-toe in 1920, we wouldn't even notice.

But now, aside from the horrific destruction a large-scale war would cause (even if it stayed conventional), it would be devastating to the world economy. South Korea is the world's largest builder of ships. It's becoming an auto manufacturing powerhouse. Tons of electronics and other goods are made there. If they go to war or are swallowed by China, you'd be looking at an instant worldwide recession at the very least.

Modern isolationism is the intellectual equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going, "lalalala".

[callforjustice911]

Lisa Simpson wrote:

"What's the old adage about not wrestling with a pig? The provocativeness of these acts suggests that Al-Qaeda isn't aiming for victory or the world's sympathy -- just an endless fight/jihad. What's earthly victory compared to an honorable death and Allah's eternal sexed-up heaven? (If they still believe that crap -- do they?)

Sorry for the porcine reference, any Muslims, but Al-Qaeda is definitely the proverbial pig here. Now if we could just divide and conquer the pigs, turning them against one another..."

Posted by Lisa Simpson at June 22, 2004 05:22 PM

And pork is the way to keep them from getting their "sexed up heaven"

Slather the weapons our tropps use and that will keep them from that heaven of theirs.

These al-Qaeda Islamic bastards need to be killed, removed from the face of the earth. Then we humans of the 21st century can progress to the aims that are higher than the 8th century aims of these Islamic bastards.

At the very least they should be captured, and beheaded with blades dipped in pig fat.

No heaven for them then.

[Rick Barton]

Dave:

"I demand more photos of men with women's underwear on their heads; that's the REAL outrage in the Middle East."

How about these? An autopsy has determined that the dead guy was beaten to death:

http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444

We haven't even seen the worst of our tax dollars at work. Senators have called the pictures that we haven't seen, "much worse", "horribly sadistic", and "sickeningly cruel".

[McClain]

Dammit, why'd it have to be Kim *SUN* Il?
It should've been Kim *JONG* Il.

[Sikandere]

"As with the Paul Johnson, Nick Berg, Daniel Pearl, and Kim Sun-il murders, I dont think it's more likely than not that such heinous acts will actually intensify military resolve in Iraq, rather than weaken it."
Attack on Iraq was for WMDs ... Sadly they were NEVER found ...
Recently a commision announced that there have been NO LINKS found between Iraq and Al Qeada Network...
So NOW WHAT!!
Beheadings and other such heinous acts are now a NEW reason for the occupied forces to continue occupation.....
Keeping giving them ideas and you shall get nothing but a BIG F _ _ K YOU in RETURN.....

[mobile]

?? ?? ??? ????? ??? ??.

[stick]

There is a link between Al Queda and Iraq, maybe not directly with 9/11, but the connections have been found. There have been WMD's, remember that ricin bomb about a month ago - oh yeah.

If you were a terrorist, who would you vote for? Do we really want this barbaric terrorist activity to reach our beloved shores? Remember 9/11? If we don't do something now to take these islamic extremists out now, 9/11 will look like a picnic.

[stick]

There is a link between Al Queda and Iraq, maybe not directly with 9/11, but the connections have been found. There have been WMD's, remember that ricin bomb about a month ago - oh yeah.

If you were a terrorist, who would you vote for? Do we really want this barbaric terrorist activity to reach our beloved shores? Remember 9/11? If we don't do something now to take these islamic extremists out now, 9/11 will look like a picnic.

[John]

South Korea has twice the population and 10 times the GNP of North Korea but they still can't defend themselves? On top of that, they claim to hate Americans for defending them. Is there a more ungrateful nation than South Korea? I say go home and let the Chicoms and North Koreans fight over it. I would love to see those dumb ass students with their Yankee go home rallies living under Dear Leader. Sometimes people should get the government they deserve and South Korea deserves North Korea more than anything.

[gwar]

I hope the big JIHAD will break out soon. So we can finish off Iraq and all it?s allies once and for all. It will happen sooner or later. There is NO reason with those countries.

[mo]

hi everyone is look at the islam and give it a bad name if you look at the first person who head got choped of it could had been the americans may
be the american wanted people to stop thinking about what happened in the iraqer prison and want people to look at islam and say look at them . i even feel how the iraq people feel all there love one been dead. i also wnat to know something it's been a year since the war on iraq started the american found sadam just 4 mouth
ago now why are the american calling for more country to come and help them it don't take 4 -5
contury to find sadam.ok you found than get the
hell out before more of people ur contury , will
be beheaded and why was it called war on iraq. if i was the president of england i will say fuck u 2 bush and bring my people back home let bush sort his miss

[Fred Gillette]

WTF. You almost had me until I clicked down and saw your name, Mo.

But you know, we highly educated Western Christians have our own paranoid conspiracy theories. Did you hear the one about the Iraq/al Qaeda link?

How about those whacky oil-rich Texans who tried to breed a pure-red bull and take it to Israel to start Armageddon? They say it is a prophesy straight out of the good old Bible.

Fanatics of the Christian, Muslim and Jewish faiths, they are all out there doing God's work. I wish they'd stop.

[알자르ᒥ]

?? ??? ?? ???? ??????
? ??? ?????? ???

[joe]

It's silly to pretend that America maintains troops in South Korea primarily to keep people on the southern half of the penninsula from having to live under a dictator.

Projection of power in the East Asian region.

[brock]

Something interesting has happened in South Korea as of late.
I use my students as a general litmus test for Korean public opinion and am always prying into their bright little minds about Iraq, and their feelings about America.
When this man was taken hostage, my friends and I worried that this would be the beginning of a new round of wildly anti-American feelings and more random attacks on White Folk here in the ROK. But, since Rummy has suggested that 1/3 of the US military presence is going to leave, my students (who previously wanted the USA to go away) are now scared and desperately want Yankee to stay. I was astounded when I asked my students last night what they want, and they all instantly said, ?they should stay?, with not a voice of disagreement. When I asked them how they would feel if America removed all forces, a deep fear was expressed.
While this kidnapping will certainly create some anti-American feelings, it seems that the Korean population is targeting the real source of this horrible crime and jettisoning, at least for the time being, their default position that America is the greatest threat to the world.

[Rick Barton]

Dan H,

You imagine that our government's intervention in Asia is going to prevent escalations that have already happened and you ignore the harm that intervention has caused in the Mid-east.

"Because Pakistan and India and China and North Korea are not going to just sit around watching these countries build new nuclear forces."

What? Pakistan and India already have nukes. North Korea is developing them. Trade is proving far more attractive to the Chinese than developing nukes.

A non-interventionist foreign policy is not "isolationism". It yields less economic isolation and more capitalism.

[Sikandere]

To Qwar,
You wrote:
I hope the big JIHAD will break out soon. So we can finish off Iraq and all it?s allies once and for all. It will happen sooner or later. There is NO reason with those countries.

After reading the above lines i truly agree with what you say ... it makes perfect sense ... Lets begin with your neighbourhood and family ... coz I dont see any reason with the existance of people who think others are less important than they themselves...
No reason for countries like Iraq?????
Have you ever stayed hungry even for a day?
Leave the rest aside...
Have you?
By the Way...
What is Jihad?
What is its origin?

[Cerebral Activity]

No no no, I don't think there is a direct link between Al Quaeda and Iraq. By the way, a jihad wouldn't solve anything, as also other muslims will be involved (e.g. those fanatics in Indonesia...), so I would not recommend that.
Those kidnappers are just so desperate: they don't have enough fire power to ambush US and Coalition forces any more (out of bullets?)so they try to influence public opinion using swords and knifes. Wow, be proud of yourself...

[Cerebral Activity]

No no no, I don't think there is a direct link between Al Quaeda and Iraq. By the way, a jihad wouldn't solve anything, as also other muslims will be involved (e.g. those fanatics in Indonesia...), so I would not recommend that.
Those kidnappers are just so desperate: they don't have enough fire power to ambush US and Coalition forces any more (out of bullets?)so they try to influence public opinion using swords and knifes. Wow, be proud of yourself...

[Cerebral Activity]

No no no, I don't think there is a direct link between Al Quaeda and Iraq. By the way, a jihad wouldn't solve anything, as also other muslims will be involved (e.g. those fanatics in Indonesia...), so I would not recommend that.
Those kidnappers are just so desperate: they don't have enough fire power to ambush US and Coalition forces any more (out of bullets?)so they try to influence public opinion using swords and knifes. Wow, be proud of yourself...

[hans]

saya turut bela sungkawa atas terbunihnya kim sun-il

[Ha Neul]

I'm Korean...
Please stop the war please

[Ha Neul]

I'm Korean...
Please stop the war please

[Ha Neul]

I'm Korean...
Please stop the war please

[Ha Neul]

I'm Korean...
Please stop the war please

[Shiraz]

I myself am a muslim and believe that the killing of Kim Sun Il is barbaric, the people who are doing these things are not muslims and have used the name of Islam for their corrupt terrorist acts. Bin Laden has done nothing but destroy the name of Islam by doing these acts of terrorism. These people are criminals. In the video they show face of Il with the words behind in arabic meaning ' There is no God but Allah'...but Allah and Islam and Quran condemns killing of innocent people. I believe this war or 'jihad' these terroists are calling it is not for the sake of religion, but for the sake of destroying humanity 🙁

[Richard]

I find the recent events sad and troubling. Mr Sun-Il, who seems to have been an innocent in the whole matter but was in the wrong place at the wrong time, being executed because the actions of his country angered some radicals. It disturbs me to hear so many people voicing the opinion that Korea is evil, the US should not be involved in Korea an THAT is why the Korean guy was killed.

Excuse me but I just see some poor guy who got his head chopped off by some really crazy, very bad people and I do not think that people should be trying to pass it off as an almost deserveed execution. That is a dangerous line of discussion. If one desired to do so, one could easily argue the same of the two Americans who were killed in the same manner. I do not in any way support this opinion but I am just saying that if you say Kim Sun-Il died because his country is incorrect in some way and therefore he had it coming, you open the door for the same type of erronous discussion concerning the US.

I believe that we should perhaps focus more on the fact that we are dealing with some really bad people who have somehow moved from the margins of Middle Eastern society to the centre of it. I cannot explain how these people have changed status, seemingly overnight, from crazy radicals to 'folk heroes fighting for the cause' in the eyes of many Iraquis and other middle easterners. However, this has to be examined. When individuals like the ones responsible for the recent killings of hostages become popular with the people, something is wrong, seriously wrong with the PEOPLE. The fact that these terrorist/hostage killers exist is not so problematic, they have always existed but have operated in the shadows and have been marginalised by their own societies. The fact that they are now household names and seen as heroes now in their countries scares me. Something has to be done to reverse the trend or else much bigger problems are yet to come.

[Peacemakia]

Do anybody have the video of Paul Johnson's beheading (not those3 pictures that im always seeing,IM taking bout THE VIDEO!!!) OR
do anybody have the Kim Sun-il beheading video or pictures? If any of you have it please contact me at [e-mail] . I would be very gracious,THANKYOU!!!

[KO, Kwang nam]

I read all comments you wrote. I'm korean. So I'm not sure that I understood every comments perpectly.
But I'm sure that I can say to you all
'Just check your self. and find the Emperialism in your mind. I can find it not only in NEOCON, but also in your comments.

[Richard]

Callforjustice911,

That is a scary point of view you put forth. I undersatnd it and after hearing about innocent people having their heads cut off and the stories of burnt bodies ripped apart in the street, my first emotional response is the same. However, perhaps we should pull out our history books and take a look at just how much killing has been done in the name of Christianity and/or "western morality" and we will see that we are in fact not much better than the muslims in the long run. I agree that the extremists have to be routed out and exterminated like the vermin they are but we cannot condemn the entire population of the region because of a minority of sick extremists.

If we were to apply the logic of generalisation of guilt and condemn entire populations we would have had to execute all of the Germans and Italians after WWII, both moral Christian peoples who did some very evil things while hiding behind the banner of "Western moral values". However, we only routed out the guilty as we must do in the middle east as well. To start blaming the entire population of the middle east and making claims that they are morally inferior will just put more oil on an already nasty fire and open up new cans of worms that I am sure most do not want to see opened. Worst of all, doing so gives justification to the extremists and they are just waiting for reasons to do more bad deeds. Also, everytime that the West voices anti Islamic/anti middle-east sentiment, more 'normal'/moderate muslims become sympathetic to the causes of the extremists who have carried out the dispicable acts we have seen recently.

That's all.

[Richard]

Here is an article by Firas Al-Atraqchi, a muslim reporter, which backs up my point that not all muslims share the point of view of the terrorists. I can rant all I like but I am still a white north-american, this guy is a muslim so it might have more valididity.

Happy reading

By Firas Al-Atraqchi
YellowTimes.org Columnist (Canada)

(YellowTimes.org) -- In light of the criminal beheading of Lockheed-Martin engineer Paul Johnson, it's time for the Muslim world to take a stand and clearly say enough is enough. Murder in the name of Islam is actually murdering the good name of Islam. Abducting and slaying innocent men and women, flying airplanes into buildings, blowing up discotheques and trains are not the ways of Islam; they are the ways of cowards, pagans who do not worship the God of Abraham, but the God of death and destruction.

There is a saying that goes something like this: The greatest enemies of a church are within.

In the case of the Islam, as an organized religion, its greatest enemies are so-called Muslims who believe they are fighting in the name of Islam to defend what they claim are Islamic interests in Islamic lands. In fact, they are so-called Muslims who plagiarize sections of the Quran, failing to embrace the comprehensive message of the entire holy book.

Six years ago, many Muslims were cheering the corrupt regime of the Taliban and the al-Qaeda network they harbored and derived inspiration from. The Taliban were seen as the only true Islamic state on the planet. Funny thing is, the Taliban never lifted a finger to better the plight of the Afghan people. Not one school was built, not one road was repaved, not one building was reconstructed, not one hospital was refurbished. The Taliban destroyed television sets, videos, radios, computers --? any instrument that represented the West. However, they held onto their tanks, missile launchers, anti-aircraft systems, guns?well, you get the picture. Hypocrisy hardly begins to describe it.

This is a true Islamic state?

The Islamic nation that the Prophet Mohammed bequeathed the people of the world was one inspired by arts and science, culture and history. It was the early Muslims who propagated mathematics, astronomy, philosophy, irrigation, civic management, and architecture, to name a few.

It was the Muslims who took the forgotten Greek philosophies, translated them and gave them back to a comparatively backward Europe. The first medical college and hospital was established in Kufa some 1100 years ago.

Now compare that with the Taliban who excelled at beating women and restricting their role in society.

But there were signs that a threatening ignorance was sweeping through the Islamic world early in the 1990s when the West, much to its discredit, allowed the barbaric Serb massacres of tens of thousands of Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina. It was there that the seeds of perverse Islamic militancy took root. When the West and the laughable United Nations failed to intervene, hardened Arab fighters from Afghanistan started to pour into Bosnia to defend other Muslims. Ironically, the Bosnians had as much in common with other Muslims as a Chinese man has with a llama. In time, the Bosnians began to feel 'irritated' with the Arab fighters, complaining of arrogance and holier-than-thou attitudes.

Stories emerged from that conflict, stories that were very disturbing. Audio tapes glorifying the Arab fighters and creating incredulous myths spread throughout the Arab countries.

I heard a few and the stories were laughable had they not had such an impact on a disenfranchised Muslim youth with no job prospects losing a bit more each day to the U.S. proxy regimes that ran their countries.

One story spoke of how Serb prisoners of war confessed that they surrendered because they saw bearded men in white robes carrying Kalashnikovs sweeping down from the sky and aiding the Arab fighters. These were the angels of God, a voice on an audio tape explains. It's hilarious that the angels of God would choose the weapon of choice of the communist, godless Soviets to aid Arab fighters, hilarious that the angels would choose to aid Arab fighters and not Bosnian Muslims.

Racism from the holy fighters?

As comic (yet absolutely true) as the above is, it remains a sad fact that such stories were swallowed hook, line and sinker by a disillusioned Muslim youth who desperately wanted to believe in something.

Such malicious myths also prevailed during the Iraq-Iran war when supreme Shi'a cleric Ayatollah Khomeini promised Iranian fighters that all they had to do was cross the Iraq border and they would find themselves in the holy cities of Najaf and Karbala and therefore be guaranteed a place in heaven. The holy cities were more than 180 kilometers away. Iraqi officers I have spoken with tell of captured Iranian soldiers who carried keys on their belts, apparently, the keys to heaven personally blessed by the Ayatollah.

The Prophet Mohammed explained such ignorance more than 1,400 years ago when he explained to the new Muslim nation that people of little faith create stories and myths to convince themselves of the faith. Historians have called this religion of the field. The Prophet Mohammed called it bida'a or innovation.

Unfortunately, in the 21st Century, such myths have taken on dangerous proportions as every Khaled, Musab, and Osama now believe they are doing the work of God when they kidnap innocents and murder them. What is more unfortunate is that such actions have been encouraged by those so-called Muslims -- who in truth seek to overthrow Islam -- in a vacuum of socio-political discourse and condemnation.

A few weeks ago, a pregnant Israeli woman and her three infant daughters were gunned down by Palestinian "resistance fighters" but there was scant mention of this in the Arab or Muslim press. Now, certainly the Palestinian-Israeli issue is a contentious issue: Arab Palestinians are mercilessly gunned down by the militant, racist, zealous and inhumane Israeli juggernaut on a nearly daily basis. Israeli actions in Occupied Palestine are allowed to continue, and indeed, encouraged, by a right-wing, anti-Islamic, neoconservative White House. When dozens of Palestinians are killed but no Israelis are harmed, North American press calls it "relative calm" or "a lull in fighting." So barbaric are Israeli actions against the Palestinians that the Zionist state has single-handedly created a new paradigm of evil that would put some of the heinous acts of inhumanity by the Nazis to shame.

Nevertheless, the killing of a pregnant Israeli woman and her three infant daughters is just as condemnable, just as barbaric, just as inhumane. So why no condemnation from the Arab press?

This is the problem. Questionable acts in the name of resistance or Islam have been swept under the rug and allowed to thrive. Have a bug in your house? Stomp it out before it multiplies. And that is exactly what has happened... the bugs have multiplied to the point that they now commit acts of violence against Muslims, Christians, Jews --? it doesn't matter. Suicide bombings in Shia mosques in Pakistan, attacks on a compound of Arabs in Saudi Arabia, and attacks on innocent Iraqis throughout the war-ravaged country are all examples of the wanton violence of those who claim they fight in the name of Islam.

Thankfully, the Muslim world is beginning to realize that it has a serious problem on its hands; columnists, Islamic clerics, teachers, spiritual leaders and common citizenry are all speaking out against these vile crimes and are rightly labeling them "unIslamic."

A poll conducted in Saudi Arabia found that 4.7 percent of Saudis support Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida's actions. A few years ago, that figure was much higher.

Things are changing in the Middle East, but the West must begin to realize that it is complicit in creating the atmosphere in which radicalism and extremism are allowed to thrive.

The first stage is for the West to ensure that the unalienable rights of the Palestinians are preserved, secured and promoted. That is not happening. The plight and strife of the Palestinian people is the fulcrum by which all things Middle Eastern are balanced. Former U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger once said that the road to Jerusalem is through Baghdad, alluding to the mistaken notion that "fixing" Iraq would "fix the Palestinian problem."

Lately, however, and in light of the abject failure of U.S. attempts to fix Iraq ? what with the prisoner abuse scandal and disinformation over Iraq's WMD ?-- some U.S. officials (past and present) are rethinking that logic and offering an alternative: the way to Baghdad is through Jerusalem.

For decades, Arab leaders have argued that resolving the Palestinian-Israeli conflict in an equitable manner will resolve many of the Middle East's ills.

Ironically, the occupation of Palestinian lands has been the perfect vehicle for repressive governments to remain in power, for martial laws to remain in place in many Arab nations, and for military juntas to be the norm throughout the Muslim world (Syria, Libya, Pakistan, Egypt, etc).

Until the Palestinian issue is resolved with the Palestinian people recognized as an indigenous part of Palestine and with their right to a contiguous homeland recognized as much an enshrined right as the right of Israelis, there will always be conflict in the Middle East.

Invading and illegally occupying Iraq didn't help. And it will gradually get worse and worse.

[Firas Al-Atraqchi, B.Sc (Physics), M.A. (Journalism and Communications), is a Canadian journalist with eleven years of experience covering Middle East issues, oil and gas markets, and the telecom industry.]

[callforjustice911]

Richard,

This is Total War. That is what it is leading to.

WWII was Total War.

Every aim was to eliminate the guilty but spare the innocent.

But was that the reality of the situation?

No.

Hirosihma, Nagasaki, the bombings of Dresden, Hamburg, and other cities.

Millions died, and most were civilians who had little aims in life but to live in peace.

That is Total War.

So, if our Islamic nations come out strongly against the Madrasses that instigate hate against the west; route out the Ismlamic extremists, in other words MAKE A STRONG STAND AGAINST TERRORISM WITH ACTION... Only then can we take them seriously and avoid Total War that the extremeists demand.

Callforjustice911

[callforjustice911]

Sikandere wrote:

"To Qwar,
You wrote:
I hope the big JIHAD will break out soon. So we can finish off Iraq and all it?s allies once and for all. It will happen sooner or later. There is NO reason with those countries.

After reading the above lines i truly agree with what you say ... it makes perfect sense ... Lets begin with your neighbourhood and family ... coz I dont see any reason with the existance of people who think others are less important than they themselves...
No reason for countries like Iraq?????
Have you ever stayed hungry even for a day?
Leave the rest aside...
Have you?
By the Way...
What is Jihad?
What is its origin?

Posted by Sikandere at June 24, 2004 01:23 AM"

Just love how this guy obfuscates the point with nonsense such as "Lets begin with your neighbourhood and family ..." then "have you ever gone hungry..." bla bla bla.

The issue is the barbaric Islamic fundamentalist bastards that saw off innocent men's heads.

That is the issue that makes one think that there is "no reason in those countries."

And "THERE IS NO REASON IN THOSE COUNTRIES"

They only thing that these Islamic bastards understand is brute force, and that we can apply if pressed to do so.

Iraq and ALL of those Islamic nations were once under the Ottoman Empire. After WWI and mandates given by the League of Nations they were allowed free autonomy.

Instead we the wise members of the West should have subjugated them and instilled proper western values rather than this perverse Islam that is running rampant in these barbaric nations.

After all of this head cutting and barbaric murder attacks in the name of allah...

Islam sucks.

What a murderous bloody religion it is.

And those that follow it have no REASON AT ALL.

[someone]

You wouldn't say that if your dad's head was chopped off...
We never asked you guys to protect us..
So get real

[someone]

You wouldn't say that if your dad's head was chopped off...
We never asked you guys to protect us..
So get real

[someone]

You wouldn't say that if your dad's head was chopped off...
We never asked you guys to protect us..
So get real

[someone]

You wouldn't say that if your dad's head was chopped off...
We never asked you guys to protect us..
So get real

[someone]

You wouldn't say that if your dad's head was chopped off...
We never asked you guys to protect us..
So get real

[someone]

You wouldn't say that if your dad's head was chopped off...
We never asked you guys to protect us..
So get real

[someone]

You wouldn't say that if your dad's head was chopped off...
We never asked you guys to protect us..
So get real

[Shiraz]

As a muslim... I read Richard's comment and I agree with him...blaming Islam and muslims is not the way....if my family was killed by a jewish or christian group of extremist..I wouldn't go ahead and blame the whole religion or the entire nation...that is only the point of view of the ignorant....
and callforjustice911....I couldn't agree with you more but are you saying kill every man, woman or child who is a muslim......are you saying kill 1.3 billion people of this world???are you suggesting world war III for the sake of some bastard terrorists who are covering and hiding behind the name of Isiam???...if that is what you are suggesting then it will not be the solution...it would be the ANNIHILATION of our world...

May Allah Bless us...Amen !

[callforjustice911]

Shiraz wrote:

"As a muslim... I read Richard's comment and I agree with him...blaming Islam and muslims is not the way....if my family was killed by a jewish or christian group of extremist..I wouldn't go ahead and blame the whole religion or the entire nation...that is only the point of view of the ignorant....
and callforjustice911....I couldn't agree with you more but are you saying kill every man, woman or child who is a muslim......are you saying kill 1.3 billion people of this world???"

No that is not what I am saying or have said... However, what needs to be done with these bastard Islamic terrorists who use Islam as the reason for their hateful acts is for those Islamic nations to make a clear stand against them.

Root them out. And kill them all if necessary.

(They have done a pretty poor job of it thus far, and us in the west are watching to see where their loyalties lie)

Then Shiraz wrote:

"are you suggesting world war III for the sake of some bastard terrorists who are covering and hiding behind the name of Isiam???..."

If it takes WWIII to rid the world of their ilk then so be it. But that depends on the nations that are for now supporting them.

Do those moderate Islamic nations want to go there, toward WWIII ?

It is up to them. But as for the terrorists, it is their aim to plunge the world into WWIII.

And it is our obligation to defend ourselves against them in their aim to bring western civilizaton down.

Then Shiraz wrote:

"if that is what you are suggesting then it will not be the solution...it would be the ANNIHILATION of our world..."

How astute of you. So much insight you have. That is exactly what the terrorists want-- The annihilation of our world. And with that thought in mind it is the OBLIGATION of Islamic nations to rid their countries of the terrorist bastards that wish for such an ANNIHILATION of our world.

That is what the these stinking rotten Islamic terrorists want.

And it is our obligation to prevent that-- even if that means we must kill them all.

Then Shiraz wrote:

"May Allah Bless us...Amen !"

Forget the "blessing" from allah for me as I prefer to keep my head attached to my body. allah is no god to me-- so according to your religion I am an infidel. (and proud of it)

Islam it is a bloody religion indeed and I want no part of it.

Whether you realize it or not we are in WWIII, and I say,

"let's roll" and get this job done so that we can live in peace after everyone is sick of war.

Callforjustice911

[callforjustice911]

Correct link:

[Shiraz]

callforjustice911...

U SAID

'''No that is not what I am saying or have said... However, what needs to be done with these bastard Islamic terrorists who use Islam as the reason for their hateful acts is for those Islamic nations to make a clear stand against them.''''

I agree with you there....that is exactly what should happen...but not at the expense of innocent civilians being killed in Iraq or afghanistan or phalistine....it should be done swiftly and smoothly...like target missions...not detroying whole cities....september 11 happened on NewYork...but what about the result of that....
are you saying the destruction of whole of afghanistan and iraq and killing of innocent women and children in return was justified by the current US administration??

U SAID...

''''If it takes WWIII to rid the world of their ilk then so be it. But that depends on the nations that are for now supporting them''''

agreed there...but ur answer is wrong....so be it??? No....it is much more complicated...u wouldn't kill a whole neighborhood if you knew there is a serial killer living there... right? similarly to think of killing millions of innocent people....just to destroy some terrorists is the wrong attitude...

and later U SAID...Forget the "blessing" from allah for me as I prefer to keep my head attached to my body. allah is no god to me-- so according to your religion I am an infidel. (and proud of it)

The point is not whether Allah is god to christians.... or jesus is god to muslims... (btw muslims do believe in jesus as a noble prophet...his life is told in detail in quran...just so you know) the point is that due to few insane people...the whole world blames islam and muslims for their faith and actions...people read books from a hateful jewish or christian writer and they believe they understand Iislam...No...do it yourself and conclude it urself...don't follow blindly after someone's hatred because it will consume you as well in the end....anyone who says without doing extensive study of islam and quran is being ignorant...and to me these terrorist are the biggest infidels of all...because they kill innocent people..regardless of any religion.....

[Shiraz]

callforjustice911...

U SAID

'''No that is not what I am saying or have said... However, what needs to be done with these bastard Islamic terrorists who use Islam as the reason for their hateful acts is for those Islamic nations to make a clear stand against them.''''

I agree with you there....that is exactly what should happen...but not at the expense of innocent civilians being killed in Iraq or afghanistan or phalistine....it should be done swiftly and smoothly...like target missions...not detroying whole cities....september 11 happened on NewYork...but what about the result of that....
are you saying the destruction of whole of afghanistan and iraq and killing of innocent women and children in return was justified by the current US administration??

U SAID...

''''If it takes WWIII to rid the world of their ilk then so be it. But that depends on the nations that are for now supporting them''''

agreed there...but ur answer is wrong....so be it??? No....it is much more complicated...u wouldn't kill a whole neighborhood if you knew there is a serial killer living there... right? similarly to think of killing millions of innocent people....just to destroy some terrorists is the wrong attitude...

and later U SAID...Forget the "blessing" from allah for me as I prefer to keep my head attached to my body. allah is no god to me-- so according to your religion I am an infidel. (and proud of it)

The point is not whether Allah is god to christians.... or jesus is god to muslims... (btw muslims do believe in jesus as a noble prophet...his life is told in detail in quran...just so you know) the point is that due to few insane people...the whole world blames islam and muslims for their faith and actions...people read books from a hateful jewish or christian writer and they believe they understand islam...No...do it yourself and conclude it urself...don't follow blindly after someone's hatred because it will consume you as well in the end....anyone who says without doing extensive study of islam and quran is being ignorant...and to me these terrorist are the biggest infidels of all...because they kill innocent people..regardless of any religion.....

[Shiraz]

forgot this callforjustice911....

U SAID

''''Islam it is a bloody religion indeed and I want no part of it'''''

how sad???? during world war II...the same could be said otherwise when millions of jews were killed in Europe...it is not the religion....No religion preaches hatred or killing....it is not the religion which is bloody....it is the few people who turn bloody and lose humanity within them...whether in hatred or revenge or simply insanity...

[Natalia]

As a Korean, I cannot exactly express my feeling
perfectly in English, but I can say that
people, except those who are mentally out of their minds, are aware that WE must do something about this situation, or it will bring ruin all over the world.

[callforjustice911]

Exactly right Natalia,

Your statement hits the nail right on the head.

We must do something about this Islamic terrorist situation NOW before it gets out of hand with weapons of mass destruction.

Any sane person can see it and where this current situation is leading.

Otherwise, we will all be living in an 8th century Talibanized world.

That is what these Islamic terrorist bastards want.

[callforjustice911]

Shiraz wrote:

"callforjustice911...

U SAID

'''No that is not what I am saying or have said... However, what needs to be done with these bastard Islamic terrorists who use Islam as the reason for their hateful acts is for those Islamic nations to make a clear stand against them.''''

I agree with you there....that is exactly what should happen...but not at the expense of innocent civilians being killed in Iraq or afghanistan or phalistine....it should be done swiftly and smoothly...like target missions...not detroying whole cities....september 11 happened on NewYork...but what about the result of that....
are you saying the destruction of whole of afghanistan and iraq and killing of innocent women and children in return was justified by the current US administration??"

You forget one thing, on major point in this issue-- TOTAL WAR.

Total War does not make such specific distinctions between civilians innocent or guilty.

It is the Islamic bastards that have declared Total War against the west and all infidels.

Any nation that harbors them are just as guilty of the same and need to be "revamped" to change the situation. Many innocent civilians will die, that is what the last World War was all about with regards to Total War practice.

Innocent and guilty alike died in that conflict.

We are being cautious in how we prosecute war, but it will not take much to push us to Total War mode. Another attack like, or exceeding 911 may very well tip the scales.

All hell will break lose then and there will be a true Total War.

Shiraz wrote:

"U SAID...

''''If it takes WWIII to rid the world of their ilk then so be it. But that depends on the nations that are for now supporting them''''

agreed there...but ur answer is wrong....so be it??? No....it is much more complicated...u wouldn't kill a whole neighborhood if you knew there is a serial killer living there... right? similarly to think of killing millions of innocent people....just to destroy some terrorists is the wrong attitude..."

Sort of like bombing Nagasaki, Hiroshima, or Dresden, or Hamburg killing millions of innocent people to rid the world of Imperial Japanese or NAZI's ?

That again is TOTAL WAR.

When nations support terrorists then nations (a society of people) are to blame. And Total War makes no such distinction between individuals innocent or guilty.

Total War involves nations against nations. The individual is minimized. And unfortunately individuals pay the price.

Leaders of nations that support terrorists need to consider that their civilians will be held accountable in the prosecution of war against terrorism.

It would be nice to single out the guily from the innocent. But Total War does not allow for that.

Shiraz wrote:

"and later U SAID...Forget the "blessing" from allah for me as I prefer to keep my head attached to my body. allah is no god to me-- so according to your religion I am an infidel. (and proud of it)

The point is not whether Allah is god to christians.... or jesus is god to muslims... (btw muslims do believe in jesus as a noble prophet...his life is told in detail in quran...just so you know) the point is that due to few insane people...the whole world blames islam and muslims for their faith and actions...people read books from a hateful jewish or christian writer and they believe they understand islam...No...do it yourself and conclude it urself...don't follow blindly after someone's hatred because it will consume you as well in the end....anyone who says without doing extensive study of islam and quran is being ignorant...and to me these terrorist are the biggest infidels of all...because they kill innocent people..regardless of any religion.."

My God goes by the name given to Moses-- "I AM"
There is only one God and it is not "allah" And Jesus more than just a prophet...

I have seen more hatred from Islam than any other religion that I know.

Islam is a foul religion that spews out bloodshed and causes its fanatics to commit terrible atrocities-- all in the name of their god "allah"

I base this opinion on recent events such as the sawing off of innocent men's heads, the brutal murders committed in the name of allah by the Taliban in Afganistan... The cutting off of persons hands and feet for minor "crimes"... The sequestering of women, preventing them from gaining an education to better their lives...

I could go on and on with the many things that really turn me off to Islam.

There is nothing in it that endears me to it.

Callforjustice911

[callforjustice911]

Shiraz wrote:

"forgot this callforjustice911....

U SAID

''''Islam it is a bloody religion indeed and I want no part of it'''''

how sad???? during world war II...the same could be said otherwise when millions of jews were killed in Europe...it is not the religion....No religion preaches hatred or killing....it is not the religion which is bloody....it is the few people who turn bloody and lose humanity within them...whether in hatred or revenge or simply insanity...

Posted by Shiraz at June 28, 2004 07:06 PM

You wrote in the above:

"during world war II...the same could be said otherwise when millions of jews were killed in Europe...it is not the religion"

Religion ????

It was not religion it was RACE or racial hatered that was the reason for the NAZI atrocities against the Jews.

The only thing that the Islamic bastards have in common with the NAZIs is hatred, and especially against the Jews.

Both the NAZIs and Islam have that in common.

The NAZIs tried to exterminate them, and the Islamics would try the same if not for the fact that Israel has the bomb to ward them off.

And I dispute what you say when you wrote: "No religion preaches hatred or killing....it is not the religion which is bloody...."

It is Islam that calls for blood of infidels. I have heard it in the chants as the murderers of innocents call out "allah akabar" over and over again.

And you are right when you wrote "it is the few people who turn bloody and lose humanity within them...whether in hatred or revenge or simply insanity..."

It is all of the above.

And sometimes Total War against them is the only option so that afterwards humanity can have a few decades of peace before the insanity starts again.

callforjustice911

[shung fui]

if al Qaeda-linked terrorist group repeat the beheading somebody in iraq,what should government can do,y U.S government faster find them out o capture them,is it U.S government have no way to find them,it is a live,although we can follow the order from the terrorist but what thd good ways to restrain this event happen again......telll me what should u do to ensure this tragedy wont happening again......faster find them out...al qaeda u must listen here,no matter what u have done o kill people,dun call allah coz ur action very stupid.ok,u thought u use this dirty way can make anyone scare for u,we wont...hahahhaha....stupid guy...stupid al Qaeda....dun think u r brave,if u really brave ur country would not become like tat,draggle and far behind to US......u thought u really do some clever action,actually just stupid and make everyone feel u like a no brain group.........

[Shiraz]

callforjustice911...

you think of war as such a glorious thing....it is not...u think that TOTAL WAR is the answer for everything... it is not....I believe you are an american...forget muslims or chirstians or jews for a change....if the events of nagasaki, hiroshima, beirut...the gaza strip...afghanistan or iraq were to happen in united states...u would know how horrible war is...it is true Americans have never fought a war at their home soil...they play wars at the the homelands of other countries.....whether in Vietnam or Iraq or Afghanistan.....911 or maybe pearl harbor are like a appetizer compare to what war is.....and that destroyed american back (atleast for a while) imagine if the events of Iraq and afghanistan were to happen here...if planes and armies were marching in NEwYork treating people like criminals...ur views of war would change....War is not glory...it is only death and more death.....US is a powerfull country....but with great power comes great responsibility...maybe the american government should realize that before it gets too late....Total War ???....believe it you don't want to know what Total War really is !

[callforjustice911]

Shiraz,

You are very misinformed.

America has fought wars, and we have lost nearly a million people from the Revolutionary War to the present.

In our Civil War we lost 620,000 in a population of 32 million. Translated to today that would equate to 6 million.

We lost over 100,000 in the Korean War, 407,000 in WW II, 118,000 in WW I...

We know what war is all about, so much so that the concept of "Total War" was presented by Gen. Sherman in our Civil War.

"Bring the war to the civilians, make them sick of war"

That was Gen. Sherman's aim when he burned down Atlanta, GA in 1865 as his the Union Army marched to the sea.

We know what Total War is all about.

And your Islamic bastard buddies have declared "Total War" on the United States and the west in general.

And they will reap what they sow with interest.

Now, with regards to what you wrote:

"callforjustice911...

you think of war as such a glorious thing....it is not...u"

Absolutely right ! I never said it was. However when Total War is placed on the table against us...

WHAT IN THE HELL DO YOU THINK ? WE ARE GOING TO SIT THERE AND DO NOTHING ?

WRONG !

And your Islamic terrorist bastards are going to learn a grave lession about the concept of Total War.

Then you wrote:

"think that TOTAL WAR is the answer for everything... it is not...."

For some things it is the answer. And with regards to the situation at hand in the world today it may be the only answer. These terrorist bastards need to be exterminated. They are vermin to those who value civilization. And they need to be exterminated as such.

That is what "Total War" does-- Eliminates subhuman trash that is not even worthy of being called animals.

(How many animals can saw off an inocent mens heads and praise allah at the same time)

These Islamic terrorsit bastards are not only less human, they are less than animals.

Then you wrote:

"I believe you are an american...forget muslims or chirstians or jews for a change....if the events of nagasaki, hiroshima, beirut...the gaza strip...afghanistan or iraq were to happen in united states...u would know how horrible war is...it is true Americans have never fought a war at their home soil..."

We have fought war on our own soil. As I have mentioned, our Civil War, fought to ensure the freedom of the black man and preserve the Union of the United States.

Then you wrote:

"they play wars at the the homelands of other countries.....whether in Vietnam or Iraq or Afghanistan.....911 or maybe pearl harbor are like a appetizer compare to what war is.....and that destroyed american back (atleast for a while) imagine if the events of Iraq and afghanistan were to happen here...if planes and armies were marching in NEwYork treating people like criminals...ur views of war would change...."

Shiraz, it is not going to happen because we the people of the United States are being proactive in not allowing such to happen. And if such were to happen you would see a side of us Americans that you have not yet seen. We value freedom and will lay our lives down for it as nearly one million of our people did to preserve the freedoms that we now have.

Then you wrote:

"War is not glory...it is only death and more death....."

Tell that to those Islamic bastards that have declared Total War on the United States. Not only do they consider war glory, but wish for death as a martyr in their own religion.

Well we can arrange for the latter, make them dead. And also show those that live that there is no glory in war.

That is the choice that these Islamic bastards have given us.

Then you wrote:

"US is a powerfull country....but with great power comes great responsibility...maybe the american government should realize that before it gets too late....Total War ???....believe it you don't want to know what Total War really is !"

I know exactly what "Total War" is. Our last great generation gave 407,000 American lives in WW II's Total War. We the people of America know what "Total War" is.

General Sherman in our Civil War understood his term "Total War"

We know what it is and how to engage in and win it.

Your Islamic bastard terrorists need to learn it too, and we will teach them by defeating them, making them so sick of war that it will be generations before they ever consider Total War again.

Consider Japan and Germany as they are today, and then consider their recent past as it was in 1941.

Says a lot.

Callforjustice911

[Kang-Min.Jo]

Hi there, I'm Korean I'm young guy. I'll tell you Americans something. Please do NOT surpport Bush anymore, Busy's police made into horror a all of the world. Do NOT be APATHY, If you are safe and American. All of us live down the earth though we're apart. Don't think that it's a good game to profit your country. it's a real this is real situation. We don't know when we'll die and how we will live. Life is just going and sometimes it would be end. therfore, we should try once more about this happenings in truly, seriously. We must seek peace for next generation our kids and grade kids.
I'm really thinkyou americans for past help sencerly but i hope it be not changed.

[Kang-Min.Jo]

Hi there, I'm Korean I'm young guy. I'll tell you Americans something. Please do NOT surpport Bush anymore, Busy's police made into horror a all of the world. Do NOT be APATHY, If you are safe and American. All of us live down the earth though we're apart. Don't think that it's a good game to profit your country. it's a real this is real situation. We don't know when we'll die and how we will live. Life is just going and sometimes it would be end. therfore, we should try once more about this happenings in truly, seriously. We must seek peace for next generation our kids and grade kids.
I'm really thinkyou americans for past help sencerly but i hope it be not changed.

[Kang-Min.Jo]

Hi there, I'm Korean I'm young guy. I'll tell you Americans something. Please do NOT surpport Bush anymore, Busy's police made into horror a all of the world. Do NOT be APATHY, If you are safe and American. All of us live down the earth though we're apart. Don't think that it's a good game to profit your country. it's a real this is real situation. We don't know when we'll die and how we will live. Life is just going and sometimes it would be end. therfore, we should try once more about this happenings in truly, seriously. We must seek peace for next generation our kids and grade kids.
I'm really thinkyou americans for past help sencerly but i hope it be not changed.

[Kang-Min.Jo]

Hi there, I'm Korean I'm young guy. I'll tell you Americans something. Please do NOT surpport Bush anymore, Busy's police made into horror a all of the world. Do NOT be APATHY, If you are safe and American. All of us live down the earth though we're apart. Don't think that it's a good game to profit your country. it's a real this is real situation. We don't know when we'll die and how we will live. Life is just going and sometimes it would be end. therfore, we should try once more about this happenings in truly, seriously. We must seek peace for next generation our kids and grade kids.
I'm really thinkyou americans for past help sencerly but i hope it be not changed.

[Shiraz]

Callforjustice911....

first thing....i am not responsible for the terrorism that is going on now in our world..neither are the billions of muslims who are being ill treated and misconcepted for the doings of some mentally ill and brain washed groups of terrorists who believe Islam is all about martyrdom and killing the infidels...
Islam is soooooo much more than what you percieve and what majority of the West percieve....Believe it that it is still the fastest growing religion in the world (eventhough you mentioned it as a bloody religion and nothing more) ...get ur mind out of the hatred and narrow behaviour which is pounded upon the world by the ill doings these terrorists....knowledge is power....use it before you conclude it.....

Also...they are not 'islamic terroists'....they are just 'terrorists' using the name of islam....

'any man who kills an innocent is not a muslim'..it says in the Quran....

these terroists are NOT muslims....and that is what every single peaceful muslim believes....i refuse that a few thousand out of 1.3 billion people turned evil define me....and the sure donot define Islam....that is all i have to say.....

[Shiraz]

callforjustice911...

u made good points but you do need to know one thing...using religion as basis of doing propaganda and doing terrorism is terrible...yet it still finds sympathy because muslims..specially the ones who are not educated easily identifies it with islamic notion of living.....which is NOT...

did you know? that the madarssas teaching in islamic nations are only teaching the quran through a violent point of view....meaning interpreting the quranic versus in such a way which comes across as violent as possible towards who they hate....the meaning of infidel is the one who doesnot believe in God and kills the innocent....you have to know that there is so much more in the quran about keeping relations with christians and jews....there is also a point of view on war as well....Understand that Islam is a practical religion....Wars are part of our history because differences do exist...and Quran talks about it....but the notion of peace talked in the Quran has been completely sidelined....which is why the teaching in Madarssas of young minds by these so called teachers have made them think nothing of the West but an enemy...kind of like a brainwashed effect that happens...this is what Talibans did....recruiting young teen men and brain washing them....teaching them Islam as a violent and fundamental means of living as much as possible..filling them with hatred and rest is in what everyone percieves...

2nd point of view.....demolishing terrorism out of these countries is required..but it would take sometime and steady actions....
when a part of a body starts to become infected with a disease or stops functioning....you try to make it better with medicines...u do not just cut it out and even that is a tough thing to do....this is what is suppose to happen in the situations of islamic countries trying to fight with these terrorists....did you know? that in the western borders of pakistan...the pakistani forces are having serious clashes with the taliban leftovers...because the people of that remote area are illiterate and they feel that it is their duty as a muslim to give refuge to talibans...little do they know that they are actually making their own country a place for the terrorism to flourish....they are blinded by their phobia of helping the terror regime that they are willing to even shake the government for the sake of something that will come bite them in the end....so give some credit to these countries....fighting and treatment of such things from the inside is much more diffcult than just coming and bombing a nation from the outside...much like what USA has done in certain cases....killing the patient just because one of the legs got infected !

[callforjustice911]

Shiraz

Islam is a bloody religion.

It is a relic from the Middle Ages.

And its weird values show such.

Ignorance reins in that religion, even though at one time many of its followers were at the forefront of the science of their day.

Actually, Christianity is growing as well, and might very well be the fastest growing religion.

So what ?

Does not matter.

But this does matter:

The rubber meets the road on this one issue-- If the Islamic nations make a stand against the Islamic terrorists that they support in their countries then they will be friends to those that hate Islamic terrorism.

Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen, and other Islamic nations support the radical Madrasses that in turn turn out those that hate America, Israel, and all "infidels."

You know EXACTLY what I am talking about.

Radical Islamic seminaries (Madrasses) that teach these practices that lead to the kinds of Islamic terrorist actions that the world is facing today.

Islamic nations must make a stand agaist them.

Root them out.

America had to do it with the "Christian Identity" movement. We had to do it with the KKK, and other radical groups that were based on hate.

Do this and these nations will find a friend in America.

Stay the course as it is now, look the other way and support terrorist organizations and the radical Islamic madrasses, and you will find American as your worst enemy.

For now, Islam is a bloody religion.

One based in hate.

The 1.3 billion that you mention need to root the evil doers out, then perhaps this perception-- which is not just mine, will change.

[Richard]

I am disturbed by the extreme right-winged thoughts expressed by some on the forum.

Shiraz, you are voice of reason on the forum but you are unfortunately being drowned out by the redneck faction which uses the forum as their sounding board.

I like your attempt at making a comparison between the ultra-fundamentalist muslim terrorists and the Nazis. Both claimed to be doing what they did (or are doing as the case may be) in the name of their respective gods. However, most of the mainstream of both religions were and are appauled by the actions carried out. This illustrates two points. Firstly, that occidental christians are not above despicable acts comparable to those of the muslim terrorists. Secondly, it is erroneous to condemn an entire group (ethnic, religeous, or other) do to the actions of one sub-group of the larger whole.

To condemn all muslims for the acts of the terrorists would be like condemning all occidental christians for the halocaust, for the inquisition, or for the exploitation of the third world. We know that acts like these were the work of the few and not the whole and they must not be confounded. The same is true of the terrible acts of some muslim extremists. Acts, by the way, which are of a far smaller scale than those perpetrated by occidental christian countries.

I haven't said much that Shiraz hasn't already said.

[callforjustice911]

Shiraz wrote:

"callforjustice911...

u made good points but you do need to know one thing...using religion as basis of doing propaganda and doing terrorism is terrible...yet it still finds sympathy because muslims..specially the ones who are not educated easily identifies it with islamic notion of living.....which is NOT..."

You bet, using religion for propaganda and terrorism is terrible. And that is a notion that comes out of the dark ages. A place in time that anyone with any sense of reason would not want to go.

Then you wrote:

"did you know? that the madarssas teaching in islamic nations are only teaching the quran through a violent point of view....meaning interpreting the quranic versus in such a way which comes across as violent as possible towards who they hate....the meaning of infidel is the one who doesnot believe in God and kills the innocent...."

RIGHT ! That is exactly what I understand about this radical form of Islam. And that is what needs to be rooted out now.

Then you wrote:

"you have to know that there is so much more in the quran about keeping relations with christians and jews...."

Well, if that is true one certainly does not see it being practiced in the Middle East now. Guess the Jews are building a wall because the Islamics want peace... "on their terms" (which means no Jews or Israel) And just as of today 08/02/04 in Iraq several Christian churches were murder bombed, showing how "loving" of peace these Islamic bastards are.

Then you wrote:

"there is also a point of view on war as well....Understand that Islam is a practical religion....Wars are part of our history because differences do exist...and Quran talks about it...."

And so does Christian teaching. SO WHAT ? If we go to war it is for good reason, and that reason was inflicted on the United States on 9/11/01.

And we are at war now.

And we will finish that which these Islamic radicals started.

We have no other choice.

Then you wrote:

"but the notion of peace talked in the Quran has been completely sidelined....which is why the teaching in Madarssas of young minds by these so called teachers have made them think nothing of the West but an enemy...kind of like a brainwashed effect that happens...this is what Talibans did....recruiting young teen men and brain washing them....teaching them Islam as a violent and fundamental means of living as much as possible..filling them with hatred and rest is in what everyone percieves..."

Very correct assessment of the situation. The NAZI's did the same with the Hitler Youth. It took a world war to take the NAZI's down, and it may very well take another world war to take these radicals down as well. But again as I previously stated. Islamic countries have an obligation to root out these radical teachers and Madrasses that teach hate toward the west, Jews and "infidels" Instead the Saudis and others are supporting them indirectly. They must pull that support or face the consequences.

And those "consequences" will not be to their liking.

Then you wrote:

"2nd point of view.....demolishing terrorism out of these countries is required..but it would take sometime and steady actions....
when a part of a body starts to become infected with a disease or stops functioning....you try to make it better with medicines...u do not just cut it out and even that is a tough thing to do...."

Sometimes such as now, tough things are required. And that is the option of "Total War"

Then you wrote:

"this is what is suppose to happen in the situations of islamic countries trying to fight with these terrorists....did you know? that in the western borders of pakistan...the pakistani forces are having serious clashes with the taliban leftovers...because the people of that remote area are illiterate and they feel that it is their duty as a muslim to give refuge to talibans...little do they know that they are actually making their own country a place for the terrorism to flourish....they are blinded by their phobia of helping the terror regime that they are willing to even shake the government for the sake of something that will come bite them in the end....so give some credit to these countries....fighting and treatment of such things from the inside is much more diffcult than just coming and bombing a nation from the outside..."

We know that, and that is what we did in Bosnia-- BECAUSE NO ONE, IN THE ISLAMIC WORLD OR EUROPE WAS WILLING TO STOP THE KILLING OF EUROPEAN MUSLIMS GOING ON THERE !

And in so doing the war criminals are on trial for the genocide of 300,000 people, mostly Muslims.

Then you wrote:

"much like what USA has done in certain cases....killing the patient just because one of the legs got infected !"

Like we did in Bosnia ?

HA !

The patient was saved.

And like we did in WWII?

(Otherwise we would be in various "Hitlervilles" all linked and subserviant to the greater NAZI Germany)

Sometimes, such as now, radical action is needed to rid civilization of the plague that is now infecting it.

Callforjustice911