Fifth Or Sixth Column

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New at Reason: Cathy Young roots roots roots for the home team.

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  1. We sure could use Ledbetter effect weapons right about now!

  2. Except they don’t discriminate by ideology, just race. This situation is not analagous to the invasion by a foreign power depicted in The Dean’s novel.

  3. Of note is the ideologically revealing difference between the expressed arguments saying, “We need things to go wrong so we can get rid of Bush.” and the more legitimate, “Bush is making things go wrong so we need to get rid of him.”

    The second argument is a matter of opinion susceptible to evidentiary proof. The first is unadulterated prejudice.

  4. I hope the war goes well. I don’t want any more innocent people to die than must.

    But after having my patriotism, courage, and morality questioned because I tried to warn people about whats happening right now, I have NO PATIENCE for Cathy “MORAL GODDAMN EQUIVALENCE” Young.

    Why don’t you keep your “what liberals should think” homilies to yourself. Frankly, given the fact PEOPLE ARE FUCKING DYING BECAUSE OF INCOMPETENCE, what (some) liberals are hoping for is FUCKING IRRELEVANT. Are you going to resurrect the “We would’ve won Vietnam if not for the media” bullshit too?

    JESUS CHRIST, you stupid cunt- why don’t you do something helpfull, instead of appointing yourself a goddamned Inquisitor?

    Oh wait, that would require more than these pathetic “Liberals are bad, conservatives are bad too, but liberals are worse” bullshit you’ve been publishing for-fucking-ever.

  5. Sir Real,

    Mind your manners. You sound like nothing more than a frothing savage.

  6. An indisputably correct savage, but a savage nonetheless.

    “Harnden goes on to say that when he asked the woman if “thousands more dead Iraqis would be a good thing,” her answer was, essentially, yes.”

    I wonder what Harden considers “essentially, yes.” Given the slurs hurled by the pro-war faction at their opposition over the last two years (“objectively pro-Saddam,” “treasonous,” “want to see a mushroom cloud over an American city,”) I’m inclined to take such an accusation with a grain of salt.

  7. Sir Real – As you define Cathy as an anatomical feature, so might others define you. Wanna guess what feature?

  8. There has been obscene gloating in every aspect of this war and from every side. For every far-left idiot like Ted Rall, there’s a far-right idiot who says Nick Berg’s execution absolutely and clearly justifies every aspect of Bush Administration policy concerning Iraq. Michael Moore’s comments regarding militants as minutemen can be matched with those who think Iraq should have been nuked, and demand it every chance they get.

    If anyone wants to be disgusted, there are plenty of places to look. Charges of un-Americanism can be lobbed back and forth forever, but I don’t mind the ridiculous rhetoric. It makes fools look like fools, which is worse than un-American in my book.

  9. Not a thing Sir Real said was indisputably correct. Cathy did none of the things he attributed to her. Perhaps Cathy’s opinions are a little too nuanced to fit on a bumper sticker. 😉
    The point I believe she made was a good one.

    Joe, as a rational opponant of the war, this should offend you…

    “Her editors back on the East Coast were giggling, she said, over what a disaster Iraq had turned out to be. `Lots of us talk about how awful it would be if this worked out.’ ‘ ”

    There is a profound difference between those who oppose the war and those who take delight in misery. Even if Cathy’s claim is exaggerated, (which I highly doubt) I’ve encountered this myself.

  10. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. There are people who would rather have millions die than be wrong, but such people are represented in all political perspectives. It’s worth calling out an individual who exhibits such an attitude but not an entire group because you can find individuals who act that way in any group.

  11. Let’s do a thought experiment.

    You are an educated, courageous, highly-capable citizen of the dictatorial Evil Empire. Realizing that no political course of action is available, you decide to assist the current enemies of that Evil Empire to help defeat it. Unfortunately, Imperial Counter-Intelligence is not staffed by the same idiots that fill the ranks of the Storm Trooper Legions and you are found, arrested, interrogated, tried, convicted and executed in accordance with Imperial Law.

    After the war, the Libertarian Alliance has to decide whether to place your executioner on trail for war crimes. Her defense attorney simply presents the transcipts and says : He was a convicted traitor and was excuted as required by law. Was this murder?

    Let this little scenario lead you to examine the nature of treason and alligence. It is far more complex than the article leads us to believe.

    For the record, no state on this planet exacts a lighter penalty for dissent, disloyalty, and outright treason than this one.

    Is that a feature or a bug?

  12. Sir Real-
    Did you read the last three paragraphs of the article? I didn’t fully agree with the piece in its entirety, but the last three paragraphs were dead on the money.

  13. I want to support my country because it’s right, not just because it’s mine.

    Probably the best description I’ve ever heard for patriotism in a free country.

  14. Ted Rall’s attack on Pat Tillman is reprehensible. Mr. Tillman obviously had integrity and was true to his beliefs. He stepped up and sacrificed everything he had for those beliefs. Not many are so heroic.

    Justice would be served if publication of that tasteless and superficial cartoon ended Mr. Rall’s career. Then, he too would have lost something while fighting for his beliefs.

    I suspect that Mr. Rall would have ridiculed Nathan Hale.

  15. “…you decide to assist the current enemies of that Evil Empire to help defeat it.”

    As a moral consideration this scenario depends on the fact that the Empire is in fact, evil. Traitors often try to justify their actions by claiming their government is evil, but their words cannot simply be taken at face value. If you choose to be an enemy of the state, you better be damn sure that state is worth being an enemy of.

    If the US fails in Iraq, would it be good for the US, would it be good for Iraq’s neighbors, would it be good for the Iraqis themselves? If your answer is no, then hoping for the US to fail is to support an evil outcome. If your answer is yes, then you are dangerously naive.

    People complain about knee jerk patriotism, but knee jerk dissent is arguably worse as it undermines national purpose for no good reason. I do not mean that one is required to support mindlessly any particular aspect of current policy, but for dissent to be a positive force, it needs to be intelligent, logical, dispassionate, and have the best interests of the country at heart. The Ted Ralls and Michael Moores have shown themselves incapable of such high mindedness and deserve our disdain.

  16. It is possible for a principled and reasonable person both to have been against the invasion of Iraq and to be in favor of building a free and democratic Iraq now that we?re there. I hope that, when tested, my allegience will always be with liberty and justice rather than with the flag for which it stands, but I have a hard time faulting my political enemies specificly for the stamina of their loyalty. To me, loyalty to the country is beside the point.

    Much like the jingoists Young is admonishing, many of us who were against the war bemoan the devolution of the loyal opposition in this country into mere opposition. It’s the policies the enemies of liberty advocate that is the problem, not the loyalty. I’d rather suffer another terrorist attack than see my rights further eroded by an unconstitutional attempt to protect us from terrorism, and because of that, I’m as loyal and patriotic an American as you’re likely to meet.

  17. “There has been obscene gloating in every aspect of this war and from every side. For every far-left idiot like Ted Rall, there’s a far-right idiot who says Nick Berg’s execution absolutely and clearly justifies every aspect of Bush Administration policy concerning Iraq.”

    Nick Burg’s father seems to relate better with the goons who murdered his son than with the Bush administration:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1221644,00.html

    As for Sir Real, perhaps Cathy’s column hit too close to home.

  18. Good comments. Reminded me of a couple of things.

    Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious- Oscar Wilde

    People ask me if I’m proud to be an American. I don’t know why I sould be proud, I didn’t do anything. It’s just where my parents screwed. – Bill Hicks

  19. Sir Real doesn’t feel the slightest bit hypocritical in lambasting someone for being an inquisitor? Oh, I get it, yours is RIGHTOUS ire …

  20. I believe wellfellow hit the nail on the head with his “a little too nuanced” comment.

    This article makes perfect sense, if you have the intellectual cpacity to read it AND you are not so overcome with emotion that you cannot analyze it objectively.

    It appears that “Sir Real” missed on at least one of those criteria.

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