More Abu Ghraib Photos

In case it wasn't clear below, the Washington Post has posted a handful of new Abu Ghraib photos.

Comments

[garym]

Just tried that username and password, and it didn't work.

[Gawdamman]

http://members.cox.net/free_iraq/Free_Iraq.htm
Here's some pictures some for you worthless cowards.

[c]

Those are valuable pictures, Gawdamman, and thank you for posting them. But it's ignorant to think that embracing self-criticism is either worthless or cowardly.

[Andrew Lynch]

c,

...it's ignorant to think that embracing self-criticism is either worthless or cowardly.

But rubbernecking is.

[Sir Real]

Andrew-

It's also ignorant to attempt to squelch legitimate criticism with worthless, cowardly claims of "rubbernecking".

[c]

I'd like to think that at least some of the people looking at these photos aren't just leering at the salacious psycho-sexual content, but instead are learning something about the slope between here and a genuine tyrannical empire.

[Sir Real]

Gawddamman-

And just think, 93% of all those smiling happy Iraqis wish you would SHUT UP and go home, ya goddamn yankee....

[Call me snake]

Sir Real,

If you mean your criticism is "legitimate" because of your 1st Amendment right, you're correct.

You're quite incorrect if you think "legitimate" equals "valid" or "defensible".

[Call me snake]

c,

If by "learning something," you mean that we learned that there is a giant gulf between "tyrannical empire" and the U.S., then I wholeheartedly agree with you.

Setting aside the fact that in 65 years we defeated Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany (with a major assist from the Russians) and then went about winning the Cold War and defeating a third "tyrannical empire":

In Iraq, the military discovered the abuse, and began investigating/suspending/disciplining before the news media caught the scent. Then every senior cabinet official apologized, including Bush on 2 Middle East networks. Investigations and prosecutions and reforms continue.

That's about a light year from a tyrannical empire, albeit not perfect. But that's what you meant, right?

[joe]

"Then every senior cabinet official apologized..."

Did they do that Clinton lip-biting thing?

[Eazy]

Bush didn't apologize on the two Arab networks, did he?

[Call me snake]

I stand corrected, quoting from the NYT:

"The actions of these few people do not reflect the hearts of the American people," Mr. Bush said in an interview with Al Hurra, an Arabic-language satellite television channel financed by the United States government. "The American people are just as appalled at what they have seen on TV as Iraqi citizens have. The Iraqi citizens must understand that."

When asked in a second interview how he thought the incidents were being perceived in the Middle East, Mr. Bush replied: "Terrible. I think people who want to dislike America will use this as an excuse to remind people about their dislike."

In the second interview, with the Arab-owned Al Arabiya satellite TV network, Mr. Bush said that Americans "stand side by side with the people of Iraq who are peaceful," adding, "peaceful people that look for a better day."

Not exactly the harbinger of tyrannical empire.

[Call me snake]

I stand corrected, quoting from the NYT:

"The actions of these few people do not reflect the hearts of the American people," Mr. Bush said in an interview with Al Hurra, an Arabic-language satellite television channel financed by the United States government. "The American people are just as appalled at what they have seen on TV as Iraqi citizens have. The Iraqi citizens must understand that."

When asked in a second interview how he thought the incidents were being perceived in the Middle East, Mr. Bush replied: "Terrible. I think people who want to dislike America will use this as an excuse to remind people about their dislike."

In the second interview, with the Arab-owned Al Arabiya satellite TV network, Mr. Bush said that Americans "stand side by side with the people of Iraq who are peaceful," adding, "peaceful people that look for a better day."

Not exactly the harbinger of tyrannical empire.

[Paul Z]

This round of "new" photos looks an awful lot like Navy bootcamp. I remember being kicked by a crusty old first class bos'ns mate and made to stand on a bucket, bend over, and "spread 'em." And one guy in our barracks, who was accused of being a "scrounge," got thrown in the shower and scrubbed . . . with a wire brush! (That must have hurt.)

Gee, maybe we missed a bet. It never occurred to us that this was abuse. Where's a good plaintiff's lawyer when you need one?

[c]

snake is completely correct -- Bush's apologies, and the investigations into the abuses, and the courts martial, and the collective handwringing of the American press and people are the difference between us and a genuine tyranny, rather than just a country constantly accused of being one.

But I don't think we can afford to spend too much time patting ourselves on the back. Try to keep in mind that if our soldiers had decided (or were ordered) not to photograph this all, then criticisms of our abuses would remain last page news, and our government would be dismissing it all as anti-american lies. To return to the original point of the thread: The photos are crucial. If you look at them and all you can think is "they shouldn't have taken pictures when they did this" or "the problem is that the media released them" then you haven't learned anything.

[Rummy]

From this week's Onion:

U.S. To Fight Terror With Terror
...
"I can't really say what we have planned for the future," Rumsfeld said. "As terrorists, fear and uncertainty will be our best weapons. Let me just say that the gloves are off. It is inevitable that indiscriminate attacks will be carried out, and innocents will lose their lives, but the end will justify the means."

Rumsfeld refused to comment on the recent abuse of military prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan, other than to characterize those abuses as "nothing compared to what we are capable of."

"It's vital to remember that these terrorists hate freedom," Rumsfeld said. "Well, guess what? From now on, we're going to hate it even more. Do you think terrorists care about due process and fair treatment of prisoners? Of course not. Why should we give them the upper hand? You fight fire with fire."
...

[Billos]

I think this photos are unfortunately not last. There will be more disgusting stuff like this.
Worst is that it will happen again and again because of nature of humans.

[dave id]

Hey is it just me or does that dog in the picture look friendly???

The guy is holding back the dog as if it is attacking, but it's just calmly standing there. Looks like it wants to play to me.

[Call me snake]

The opportunity is wide open to turn Clinton's impeachment defense around on the WaPo, CNN, NBC and the other usual suspects.

If the Starr report was "salacious" and brought into question Starr's excessive concentration on oval office gymnastics, then is it not salacious to splash additional Abu Ghraib photographs of the same type of abuse/torment??

To clarify: Publishing photos of the same relative level of prisoner torment is politically (for Kerry's benefit) motivated overkill. If the nattering nabobs find more vicious pix, i.e., bloody torture and whatnot, let 'em rip.

One can conclude that the media is now guilty of the same offense that Starr supposedly committed, i.e., excessive focus on the prurient, shocking aspect of the story?

"I put it to you, Greg...."

[Eazy]

Sexualized torture is substantially different from a consensual, abeit on-the-job, sexual relationship.

[meep]

Continuing in that vein, but without any partisan conspiracy theories, is anyone aware of a good reason why "new" pictures are being released every couple days, rather than all at once? Obviously, the easy (and likely correct) answer is that the media thrives on conflict (at best), or is actively trying to make Bush look bad. But is there any legitimate reason why The Story is being ladeled out so lovingly?

I'm assuming that the government has original control of most of the images...are they not releasing them all at once? Otherwise, where is this steady trickle of photos coming from? It's not like the soldiers involved are sending in their personal pics out of a desire to be forthcoming.

[Eazy]

Just as presidential deception toward Americans about WMDs is substantially different from deception about an affair.

[Eazy]

The government hasn't released any photos, Meep.

[TWC]

And does that mean that the one having the affairs was also deceiving the American public about WMD? Or was that just GWB? Puzzling in that the WMD allegations predate GWB by a decade.

[Mark S.]

Just repeat after me...

"Abu Ghraib has been blown out of proportion."
"It was no worse than a frat initiation."
"The guards were just blowing off steam."
"The guards were all Democrats."
"They're terrorists, so they deserve what they got."
"What about Nick Berg?"
"Remember 9-11!"

Do this four or five times an hour and you may actually start to believe it.

[President George Bush II]

Stop talking about the pictures, please. Just stop it. It's not my fault. I didn't spend much time in the military, so I have no idea how to control these goons. Boys will be boys.. and some girls who look like boys.

[dead_elvis]

I am getting real tired of these Registration Required links posted here. I'm not saying this just to be whiny, I have a constructive idea: Everytime one of these links comes up, someone register an email of "[e-mail]" or username of "reason" with a password of "reason." Then we have a communal pass to all these newspapers, and voila, no more annoyance. I just did that for this article, and it worked like a charm.

[Rick Barton]

Abu Ghraib: inmates raped, ridden like animals, and forced to eat pork:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=523724

[Anti-bush]

only bloody revenge will bring the victims peace.

So wait for the revange day! and it will be real hard and bloody.

[Anti-bush]

only bloody revenge will bring the victims peace.

So wait for the revenge day! and it will be real hard and bloody.

[moving along]

The fact that some of the inmates at Abu Ghraib were also forced to eat pork (ref. three posts up) indicates a premeditation of these crimes by those further up command.

Jesus H. Christ.

Yes, it could. However, Occam's Razor might suggest that the guards had some slight knowledge of Islam and used it to further humiliate the prisoners.

[Sam I Was]

dead elvis wrote: "I am getting real tired of these Registration Required links posted here."

Yeah, God knows you have a right to access a newspaper's work without paying anything, even the simple input of your name and birthyear. we all know that the Washington Post is a charity organization, spending money and resources to create content at no cost to you. Aren't you glad that newsstands and book stores give away copies of newspapers and magazines, fulfilling their moral obligation to provide you with free stuff?

Slipping out of sarcastic mode, help me out here: At what point during the evolution of the Internet did goofballs like you develop this sense of entitlement?

[Rick Barton]

The fact that some of the inmates at Abu Ghraib were also forced to eat pork (ref. three posts up) indicates a premeditation of these crimes by those further up command.

[Walter Wallis]

Shall we demand an investigation of the charge that Michael Moore paid the instigators of Abu Ghraib to do their little thing, or shall we just announce it as fact the way Moore does?

[moving along]

I think Occam's Razor argues for the premeditation of these crimes by those further up command because if it was just the guards, we have to account for them procuring the pork as well.

Jesus H. Christ, again.

You must not be aware that pork is readily available in MREs. For someone ostensibly using Occam's Razor, you've got a lot of stubble.

[J. Henry Christ]

Yes? What do you need?

[Walter Wallis]

Why the coverup of the Moore connection?

[moving along]

Feh. Everyone knows "H." stands for "Harold".

[Rick Barton]

moving along,

From the article that I cited:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=523724

Other prisoners tell how they were fed pork or forced to drink alcohol, which are forbidden to Muslims.

I don't think that you actually read the article. If you did, you shouldn't even be allowed to use anything that's sharp. Are we really to believe that what went through the guards' minds was; "lets give these guys some booze, yeah that'll wreck their day"?

Continuing from the article:

The latest pictures and allegations ? chronicling more calculated attempts to humiliate Muslim prisoners ? have only added to the suspicion that they were part of a policy formulated at a high level of authority.

Compelling evidence is emerging that responsibility for the abuse goes right to the Pentagon, where an ultra-secret "black operation" was set up to run the interrogation process. This unit, under the direction of Stephen Cambone, under-secretary of defense for intelligence, reportedly used theories developed by an academic to guide the torture of the detainees.

The book, The Arab Mind by the late cultural anthropologist Raphael Patai, includes a 25-page chapter on Arabs and sex, stating that the biggest weakness of Arabs is shame and humiliation. Patai's book was described by The New Yorker's Seymour Hersh as providing an intellectual and practical underpinning of the culture of torture at Abu Ghraib.

But, check out the link, read the whole article and see what our tax dollars are being used for. It's tragic

[Rick Barton]

moving along,

I think Occam's Razor argues for the premeditation of these crimes by those further up command because if it was just the guards, we have to account for them procuring the pork as well.

[Don]

Didn't Pershing dump dead Muslims in with dead pigs, way back when? It's not like it isn't common knowledge that Muslims have issues with pork, alcohol, and sex.

[Walter Wallis]

Ant the Michael Moore Abu Ghraib coverup continues.

[moving along]

I don't think that you actually read the article. If you did, you shouldn't even be allowed to use anything that's sharp. Are we really to believe that what went through the guards' minds was; "lets give these guys some booze, yeah that'll wreck their day"?

I won't say it a third time.

Rick, you can continue believing that soldiers are completely ignorant, if you wish. As I said before, anyone with the barest knowledge of Islam knows that alcohol and pork are strictly forbidden. So, yes, I think the guards did say, "Hey. let's give these guys some booze, yeah, that'll wreck their day, since it goes against the very fiber of their belief." I have no doubt that people willing to violate prisoners physically are willing to violate them psychologically.

You'll find shaving with Occam's Razor much easier once you take off your ideological blinders.

[Rick Barton]

moving along:

"As I said before, anyone with the barest knowledge of Islam knows that alcohol and pork are strictly forbidden."

It's my conjecture that the most of those guards MIGHT know that they are forbidden, but strictly? I don't think so. This just looks like part of an orchestrated effort, which is consistent with much other evidence.

"I have no doubt that people willing to violate prisoners physically are willing to violate them psychologically."

So why would you have doubts that those people willing to do these things could be "up command"?

You really should use the light of the illumination of evidence when shaving with Occam's Razor in order to avoid accidents.

(moving along; I'm afraid if we keep going with this extended metaphor, Occam is going to become angry with us)

[joe]

I find it reassuring to know that, no matter what miserable atrocities our government causes, Walter Willis will always be there to say, "Hey, look over there."

At least until January 05.

[Walter Wallis]

"...until January 05."
In your dreams, lowercase boy.