The Mind of a Teenage Suicide Bomber

Here's an interesting account of Hussam Abdo, a a 16-year-old would-be suicide bomber. A snippet:

Hussam Abdo, 16, told the Israeli newspaper Yediot Ahronot, he had learned about paradise in school.

?A river of honey, a river of wine and 72 virgins. Since I have been studying Koran I know about the sweet life that waits there,? he said.

He was caught yesterday with a suicide bomb vest strapped to his body at a crowded checkpoint, setting off a tense encounter with soldiers the army said he had been sent to kill.

Comments

[thoreau]

"Suck it up and take one for the team!"

"Larry Flynt wants YOU!"

"A blowjob a day keeps Osama away"

"Do it or we're all fucked"

[Jennifer]

"Either they get fucked or we all do."

[Mo]

Jennifer,
Interestingly enough, when I was growing up and taking Islamic Sunday school, I don't remember a damn thing about 72 virgins, the honey and wine I do. It might have changed my decision to stop going when I hit high school. 🙂

Though, I don't know why it was never brought up in class. Maybe because of the age of my class or because in general my school only taught the stuff that was in the Koran with a whole lot less focus on the hadith. Heck, I never even heard it from my parents. I just got the old fashioned, you get what you want and grandma will be there.

Though I guess women would get 72 virgin cabana boys, which is even more cleanup than being one of 72 virgins. TANSTAAFL 🙂

[Patrick]

>Why aren't the Palestinians smart enough to
>realize that peaceful disobediance by the entire
>country would get results so much faster than a
>few violent assholes killing innocent folk?

Because their leaders (and many of the people, too--thanks to the Palestinian educational system) want Israel to disappear. Such an unrealistic goal cannot be accomplished with any amount of peaceful resistance.

[Jennifer]

Mo-
Did you go to mosques here, or in the "Muslim world?" That could explain the difference. After all, I imagine the Christianity kids get in American churches today is radically different from the Christianity back during the Crusades.

True story: I saw a Muslim apologist on TV who insisted that the verse didn't promise 72 VIRGINS, but 72 RAISINS, which were considered a yummy luxury food back then. (Apparently in Arabic, the words for 'virgin' and 'raisin' sound similar.) I wish I'd been there, so I cuold have asked the guy why the Koran says these 'raisins' all have dark, lovely eyes.

Maybe the martyrs get neither virgins nor raisins, but black-eyed peas.

[thoreau]

Imagine the appropriations bill for this special "psychological warfare" division. Some ultra-conservative born-again Christian Congressman from the deep South is reading through this.

"500 black lace teddies from Victoria's secret, salaries for 1000 bodyguards, a million condoms purchased at bulk rate from Trojan, hotel rooms at hourly rates in Middle Eastern cities, 500 pairs of stilleto heels..."

He'd have a heart attack before he could make a motion to withhold funding.

[Mo]

Tim C.,
Also, MLK, Ghandi and Mandela had the "luxury" of violence being in the backdrop as a seperate alternative to their peaceful methods. That offered TPTB the choice, deal with the violence and/or violent groups or deal with the reasonable, peaceful groups to deflate the motives and support of the violent groups.

Plus, the dichotomy helps pressure the government more and wins over moderate converts with PR. This helps reframe the violence as a problem with the administration dealing with the issue, rather than violence being equated to the cause.

[Ghando]

Thanks for all the insightful responses to my civil disobediance post!

[Jennifer]

Thoreau-
If my proposal makes Southern congressmen drop dead, that is yet another argument in its favor.

[Mo]

Jennifer,
Here of course. Heck, my class was mixed gender and I sat next to girls in class. The school was pretty conservative overall, but not fundamentalist. There was a huge scandal when me and a friend (who happened to be female) snuck off campus to a local convience store to get candy and soda or some crap. Not that we snuck off school, but that we were alone and we might "do something." Our parents didn't care and thought everyone was being ridiculous.

The interesting this is that my parents were raised in Egypt, but thought that the school was too conservative and a lot of the things they said was crap. They had no problem saying this and there was no problem in class when I questioned it (well, nothing more than a dirty look for questioning their authority). Maybe that's why I don't see Islam as a problem so much as the underlying society. When it is placed in a liberal society, where it is ok to question longstanding traditions, it is as robust as Christianity or Judaism. If you keep it in a paranoid, repressive society, it can be a tool for evil.

[thoreau]

If you keep it in a paranoid, repressive society, it can be a tool for evil.

I imagine that the same could be said for just about any idea, institution, or whatever. Good point.

[Jennifer]

Mo, which I now realize must be short for Mohammed--

I agree, Islam is no more prone to evil than any other Abrahamic religion. I know Christian apologists who say things like "Xianity is warlike DESPITE the words of Christ; Islam is warlike BECAUSE of the words of Mohammed," but I don't quite buy that; peaceful, loving Jesus said "He who is not with us is against us;" compared Samaritans to dogs, and said he came to break up families and cause all sorts of trouble.

The old Ottoman Empire, for all its faults by modern standards, was nonetheless more humane than the Christian armies of the time; it was a Christian Pope, not a Muslim caliph, who first coined the phrase 'Kill them all and let God sort them out.'

No, the problem is not Islam per se; the problem is that Islam rather than secularism is the basis of law over there. If we took Ann Coulter's advice and "forced them all to convert to Christianity," their society would be just as damnably evil so long as they kept their theocratic government.

I think Ms. Coulter should be the colonel of the whore brigade, especially since by her own admission she can't find a man, so the whole adultery thing won't raise its ugly head.

(I want to someday stop being catty, but not yet. Not yet.)

[Tim Cavanaugh]

Also, MLK, Ghandi and Mandela had the "luxury" of violence being in the backdrop as a seperate alternative to their peaceful methods. That offered TPTB the choice, deal with the violence and/or violent groups or deal with the reasonable, peaceful groups to deflate the motives and support of the violent groups.

This is the classic Martin/Malcolm-good cop/bad/cop split (well explored, ironically enough, in the split between Haganah and Irgun in the movie Exodus). I'd say that until the PLO's expulsion from Lebanon in 1982-83 the Palestinians had this "luxury" as well. Fat lot of good it did them.

[Mo]

Tim,
Not saying good cop/bad cop always works. My point was that good cop alone doesn't work. Just that the good cop needs the bad cop. I don't think good cop/bad cop would've worked in Nazi Germany either (not equating the situations at all, merely referencing the previous post re: Ghandi, civil disobediance and Nazi Germany).

[garym]

Jennifer:
That "martyrdom" which you gush over is nothing but the murder of innocent people. The people who commit those murderers are religious mercenaries, doing it for the sex and other rewards which they believe they will get in heaven, and to take out their hatred of Jews; they only make things worse for the Palestinians, but they don't give a damn about that. I only regret that these mass killers will never know that they were lied to about their payoff; they'll never see their whorehouse heaven, but they'll never see the hell they deserve, either.

I take you at your word when you say you would commit similar murders. And I would spit on your "martyr's" grave.

[TJ]

I like Richard Dawkins take on this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4257777,00.html

Just another example of religion gone bad.

[Mo]

Actually, it's short for Mostafa. The problem isn't just the Koran as the basis of law, but the deference to authority. Take the religion out and the countries would merely be Stalinist. Egypt is pretty secular compared to SA and some of the other ME countries (statue of a woman taking off her veil right in Cairo), but they go along with whatever they are told not questioning much. My mom is considered "pushy" there, while here she is considered laid back. Even the old religiously-based Islamic empire looks progressive compared to the situation today. Maybe it was because the religion was still young and people were trying to figure it out based on the context of the world around it, but there were vigorous debates on how Islam should regard law, science and outsiders. That simply doesn't occur anymore. My dad has a form letter from his Congressman that he recieved when he wrote to him complaining about some of our foreign policy. He treasures it because the government is making an effort to listen and actually made an effort to answer his objections. My siblings and I think he's being silly because it's just a letter. He loves it because he can send a letter like that and not worry about the knock on the door in the morning being anything more serious than a neighbor complaining about his dog barking at night.

[The Lonewacko Blog]

"A good example of why superior technology will never solve the problem. Unless the West finds a way to get into the Muslim psyche, we'll continue to face suicide bombers and other assorted terrorist acts. We must be willing to expose and openly criticize the irrational and dangerous belief system that is Islam"

A while back, this blogger stated something like, "It's the imams, stupid."

The way to stop this is to encourage peaceful religious leaders, dealing with the non-peaceful as necessary. Our "friends" the Saudis have been cracking down on "strange preachers" for a while now.

[joe]

"I'm not sure how much good it would have done to get Mohammed Atta laid. Some of the accounts I read of him suggest that, had he not found opportunities for mass murder in Al Qaeda, right now he'd be a really creepy serial killer in some remote area.'

Atta had a planning degree. I told you we were a death cult 😉

[Ken Shultz]

Asking why anyone would want to have sex with a virgin is looking at it from the wrong perspective. The question is why would 72 virgins want to have sex with a suicide bomber?

[esco]

Hey GaryM, i hope your vitriol is raised as much by the murder of innocent Palestinians by state sanctioned troops, or the razing of Palestinian homes for lack of building permits, or the destruction of olive fields, etc etc etc. I spit on the grave of every terrorist Israeli troop that has ever held a weapon.

[Mo]

Ken,
Because he'll blow them away.

(groan)

[Jennifer]

Garym-
Language, dear, language. I do not 'gush' over the Palestinian bombers; I merely said I understand why they do it. Notice that I also said that I understand why an Israeli who lost his family to a suicide bombing might want to kill all Palestinians. There is a difference between understanding something and justifying it.

And yes, I am human enough that if some gun-toting asshole forced me out of my beloved home, shoved me into a refugee/concentration camp, repeatedly humiliated me and the man I love, and treated me and mine worse than dogs for fifty years, I'd probably be pissed off enough to want to blow up the bastards currently living in my former house, without first bothering to determine whether or not they were directly responsible for such outrages.

[Jennifer]

Mo-
Forgot to mention that I see your point about deference to authority, moreso than religion, being the problem. Then again, if I wanted to be a semantic nit-picker, I could say that Communism is like religion in the most important way: both require belief/faith in something that not only cannot be proven true, but in many cases has been proven false!

Really, when you get right down to it, how can any society be healthy when its core philosophy defies the proofs offered by human intelligence?

[thoreau]

Jennifer-

I try to avoid thinking of Ann Coulter in a sexual context. Thanks for the horrifying images you've put in my head. Remember, the goal is to get the Al Qaeda boys to calm down, not to get them to hate the west even more.

(Yes, I know, she's blond and skinny, but she's scary. Very scary.)

[Mo]

thoreau,
Speaking from personal experience, strong-willed, thin, blonde white women are like Kryptonite to Arabs. 🙂 I just don't find Adam's apples attractive.

[Jennifer]

Thoreau--

Hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee. . . .

To further frighten you, imagine how much sharper the angles of her face would become if she exercised her jaw muscles by giving lots of bl--no, no, I won't say it. I swear, I'm not usually this vulgar.

BBCNews has posted a heartbreaking story about the bomber boy in question:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3567791.stm

[SM]

Mo,
"Also, MLK, Ghandi and Mandela had the "luxury" of violence being in the backdrop as a seperate alternative to their peaceful methods. That offered TPTB the choice, deal with the violence and/or violent groups or deal with the reasonable, peaceful groups to deflate the motives and support of the violent groups."

What your point, Mo ? Seems to me that the Palestinians have always had this "luxury" big time, far more so than Gandhi ever did. Has the Palestinian leadership ever threatened to shut down or withdraw from civil disobediance as a way to delegitimise violent factions the way Gandhi often did, even in the face of opposition from fellow nationalists ? I don't think your comparison will withstand any real scrutiny. It's not as if Gandhi & Co. were able to just walk into British Indian courts and petition for independance ! Scores of heads were broken before that ever happened.

As for not blaming Islam - that's probably correct in the abstract viz the "that's not what true My Religion is" argument. But in the real world Christ's teachings didn't stop the Crusaders from killing everything that stood in the way of spreading His Gospel of Love & it took the enlightenment, the reformation and God knows what else to turn christianity into what it is today. Likewise these suicide bombers are obviously actuated by some manner of religious zeal. I'm all in favour of seeking out and mitigating all "root causes" that don't involve traveling back in time and to have sex with Mohammed Atta but that's one root cause right there. What Richard Dawkins said.

Minor quibble - it's "Gandhi".

[thoreau]

Jennifer-

That BBC article was sad. I know I'll get flack for this, but I feel sorry for that kid. This does not in any way excuse suicide bombings, and even the most pathetic and messed up kid is ultimately responsible for his actions, but it's just one more sin to add to the very long list already compiled for the terrorist leaders who send these suicide bombers. They took advantage of a guy who's clearly weak. Fortunately he had a flash of conscience and their plan backfired.

Once again, I am not excusing terrorism, but the fact that these thugs prey on the weak when recruiting their bombers is just one more item in the already long indictment against them.

[Jennifer]

SM-
In MO's defense, I don't think the Israelis would respond to civil disobedience. If, for example, a bunch of Palestinians tried going on a hunger strike a la Gandhi, there are plenty of Israelis who would probably think, "Good riddance" or "The only good Palestinian is a dead Palestinian."

The point of civil disobedience is to ultimately get the ruling power to be embarrassed or ashamed enough to stop their behavior. Martin Luther King's nonviolence campaign worked well in America because our country was getting embarrassed about claiming to be a beacon of liberty while we treated blacks like shit. Gandhi's worked in part because the British in 1948 couldn't publicly criticize the Nazis for their conquests if they did the same basic thing.

However, Israel doesn't seem the type to be embarrassed about their mistreatment of Palestinians.

[Jennifer]

Thoreau-
Read your last post and I agree with you. If all terrorists were psychotic Ted Bundy types like Mohammed Atta this would be so much easier to figure, but when both sides have the same number of evil bastards and the same number of innocent victims, not to mention the same number of legitimate grievances, what can anyone really do?

[joe]

Jennifer, I think you're conflating the attitude of the Israeli majority with that of Likud and their ideological cheerleaders on this side of the ocean. Most Israelis are far more decent in their opinions of Palestinians, and far more eager to reach a fair accommodation, than their detractors (and their "supporters") give them credit for.

[SM]

Jennifer,

You don't think there were were plenty of Brits who thought "Good riddance" or "The only good Indian is a dead Wog" ?

[dhex]

thoreau: scary, terror-drenched sex can be fun and enjoyable. personally, i think ms. coulter would be most effective in a graveyard in the middle of the night calling upon barberous names dragged from her latest book, perhaps. and lots of LSD and sodomy.

joe: yeah, basically. american zionists seem to somehow be more angry and more bitter than israeli zionists, which shouldn't be possible just from a "they're blowing up my backyard, not yours fuckwit" perspective.

[Mo]

SM,
I don't htink we disagree as much as you may think.

My comment re: Gandhi and others was not that the Palestinians needed a violent element (they have that in spades), but that civil disobediance alone has never solved anything. The Pals need a popular, outspoken civil disobediance wing in the worst way. They need a platable alternative to the murderous fanatics.

As far as blaming Islam, I didn't say they need to relearn the meaning of "true Islam," but that they needed to question authority, their teachings and their history. Things like their treatment of women and those that disagree with them. We need to teach them the value and benefits of accepting outside thinking and questioning their own. That is precisely what the reformation and enlightenment did for Christianity. They need an Arab Martin Luther.

[Mo]

The reason I say they need the peaceful wing is because I think that it is the only way a Palestinian state will ever come about. Eventually, for the state to exist, the Israelis will have to hand over power to the group that they deem worthy to run the joint. In theory, whichever group gets concessions will win popular support. Israel will never hand over control to a group whose express purpose is to drive Israel to the sea or only makes a point with violence. They will hand it off to the "can't we all just get along" wing, if to anyone. This wing needs to exist to a) garner sympathy and positive PR in the world stage (most importantly, the US) b) provide Israel with a group that they feel safe dealing with c) someone that has shown they will solve disagreements peacefully.

[joe]

Jennifer, southern governments and individuals had exactly the same response to the violence against Freedom Riders and MLK marches that you attribute to Israelis. It was the pressure brought on them by decend people, and the US Federal government, that compelled the segregationists states of the former Confederacy to reform their treatment of minorities.

Even if their hearts aren't touched by images of violence against peaceful protestors, Israeli Likudniks will fold like a tent if the US government makes a serious effort to lean on Israel, just as segregationist states here at home did.

Nonviolent resistance hasn't been tried by the Palestinians because their leadership right now is interested in destroying the state of Israel, not reforming it. MLK and Gandhi weren't trying to end the existance of Mississippi and Britain.

[Jennifer]

JOe-
I know that the Southern troglodytes opposed ending segregation; luckily, it was Lyndon Johnson's call, not theirs. Likewise, the British may have opposed Gandhi but Churchill finally backed down. I just don't think Sharon is on a par with Churchill or Johnson; he's more of a George Wallace or Orval Faubus.

How's this for a maxim: "Civil disobedience is only effective against the civil"? I think that sums it up nicely.

[dhex]

an arab martin luther would be so anti-semetic he'd be like an anti-jewish black hole. perhaps muslim michael collins would be a better analogy. 🙂

your point is well-taken, however. those types tend to get assassinated pretty quick though, so it's a rough job.

[Mo]

Jen (may I call you that?),
Does that mean that Sharon is plotting to get the Palestinians to embrace rap culture? It'll start with SandNWA and their hits, "Fuck the IDF" and "Straight Out of Gaza." Then they'll go for the bling, eschew education and demand that Hebe-onics be taught in schools. 🙂

[joe]

Jennifer, Sharon does not equate to Churchill or Johnson, Kennedy, and Ike. Bush (and soon, Kerry) equates to those people, in my analogies. Sharon equates to George Wallace.

[Jennifer]

Joe-
That's what I said; Sharon is not Churchill et al.

Mo-
Hebonics, oy! A comedian, he is. You want I should give you a nice bagel? Dhex is right about how antisemitic Martin Luther was, but I say forget Michael Collins, whoever he is. What we need is a Muslim Henry VIII.

Call me Jen if you want. It saves time when you're typing. Also, "Jen" is the Zen Buddhist term for "humanity."

[Jennifer]

Joe-
I KNOW Sharon is more George Wallace than Churchill. That's exactly what I said.

Mo-
Hebonics, oy! A comedian, he is. You want I should give you a nice bagel? Dhex is right about how antisemitic Martin Luther was, but I say forget Michael Collins, whoever he is. What we need is a Muslim Henry VIII.

Call me Jen if you want. It saves time when you're typing. Also, "Jen" is the Zen Buddhist term for "humanity."

[Jennifer]

Sorry about the weird, semi-identical double posting. My computer did some weird burp-like thing and I thought I lost it.

I don't believe in Satan, but I do believe computers are his tool.

[joe]

"That's what I said; Sharon is not Churchill et al."

Little misunderstanding, then. Sharon is like Wallace, and unlike Johnson, in both his attitude towards the minorities (your point), but also, and more importantly, in his inability to stand up to larger public and governmental opinion of those who ARE upset by images of the minority being persecuted. - that is, he is ultimately subordinate to what the US federal government wants, and cannot maintain his position in the face of determined opposition from Uncle Sam.

Civil disobedience would against Israel not because it would touch the heart of the uncivil Sharon, but because it would touch the hearts of the people (Americans) who he depends on to back him up.

[Mo]

Jen,
That BBC story brought a tear to my eye and made me want to kick the ass of whoever put the belt on him.

[Jennifer]

Mo-
Yeah, sad stories all around.

You know, the evilly pragmatic part of me that only comes out in the small hours of the night when I'm tired or cranky thinks that the only way to solve the problem is for a radioactive meteor from space to squash the entire damned "Holy Land" flat and render it ununhabitable for the next five centuries. 'Twould be a terrible human loss right now, but over the next 500 years would probably result in a net decrease in suffering due to that infectiously hateful hellhole of a region.

You know how people say that things like gay marriage are just stupid distractions keeping the American people from focusing on the real issues that concern us? I think Israel/Palestine plays a similar role in the Muslim world.

I have enjoyed our conversation, but I have to leave home for a few hours now. I look forward to checking the post when I get home and seeing what tangents it explores.

Thoreau, if you're still reading this: "Ann Coulter in a leather thong."

[thoreau]

I'm blind! I'm blind!

[thoreau]

I'm blind! I'm blind!

[Douglas Fletcher]

Well I think that joe equates to Jean Bart minus a Jesuit education, while Jennifer plus career ambivalence equates to Ruthless minus one-half a Rick Barton, while Tim Cavanaugh equates to 1-1/2 Julian Sanchezes plus a Brian Doherty, while ...

I always hated word problems in school...

[thoreau]

Joe = JB - Jesuit education
Jennifer + career ambivalence = Ruthless - 0.5*Rick Barton
Cavanaugh = 1.5*Julian Sanchez + Doherty

thoreau = (joe+Rick Barton+i*Julian Sanchez)/3

Equation form is so much simpler.

[Mo]

Jen,
Don't feel bad, I have a similar, evilly pragmatic idea, that I actually tell my friends that can be actualized. I even have a Biblically inspired name for it (that both sides share the story): Operation King Solomon. Basically, we point a big nuke at the region, say you have 30 days to come to an agreement or we turn the Holy Land into a radioactive glass factory. We'll see who actually "loves the baby" to keep us from "cutting it in half" and end the violence, either way.

I've often said the same thing about IvP being a distraction in the Arab world. I think the governments keep their people focused on that conflict in order to keep their people from ignoring the corruption and abuse by their own governments and keep them focused on the J.E.W.S. That seems to be one of the few political issues that it is germane (not to mention legal) to debate in public.

JB is far less to the left than joe. I think JB is more of a thoreau + Jesuit education and joe = Lefty/2 (remember him? where did he vanish off to)+ goverment paycheck

[thoreau]

JB is more of a thoreau + Jesuit education

Hey! My first 8 years of education came from the Franciscans and the School Sisters of Notre Dame, thank-you very much.

In any case, I stand by my equation:

thoreau = (joe+Rick Barton+i*Julian Sanchez)/3

Face it, I'm a complex guy! (insert laugh track here)

(For those who don't get it, look at "i*Julian Sanchez". "i" is the imaginary number, and a combination of real and imaginary numbers is a complex number.)

[Jacob]

The palestinians don't need suicide bombers and don't need civil disobedience. They have been offered numerous plausible and good compromises, starting with the UN partition resolution of 1947 and up to Camp David, 2000. They have always refused ANY compromise, and always adhered to their dream of annihilating Israel.
The sufferings of all, Jews and Palestinians alike is caused by this intransigence and lack of realism.
All people could live in harmony and prosperity in the ME, but that's not what the Palestinians want. The want history undone and reversed, and the Jews driven away, to undo, what they perhaps plausibly interpret as an injustice.

[Mo]

t-
Groan, I thought I was done w/ cheesy math jokes after I graduated college.

[Mo]

Jean Bart = (Shannon Love)^-1

[joe]

Jacob,

My only quibble is in your characterization of the deals offered by Israel as "plausible and good." Noncontiguous areas? The larger of which is landlocked? All those people confined within a high rise refugee camp in and around Gaza? The water rights issue? Israel shrinks Palestinian territory more on the way out the door, and doesn't trade any of its own? A demilitarized Palestine, with an IDF presence within its borders?

Arafat is very fortunate he's never had to deal with a "plausible and good" offer. His head would explode.

[Overlord]

?He doesn?t know anything, and he has the intelligence of a 12 year old,? his brother, Hosni, said.

[BigFire]

Re: Overlord

Well, this 12 year old minded 16 year old is smarter than the rest of his family combine by not comitting sucide.

[Xmas]

Again with the 72 virgins.

Who the hell wants to have sex with a virgin? Seriously.

[dude]

So. . . is it me or do these guys sound like they really need girlfriends? Is that the problem? Or maybe just a stack of Penthouses from 1982? I'd think that would be $$ well spent.

Operation Pornbomb!

[dude]

So. . . is it me or do these guys sound like they really need girlfriends? Is that the problem? Or maybe just a stack of Penthouses from 1982? I'd think that would be $$ well spent.

Operation Pornbomb!

[Calling a Spade a Spade]

A good example of why superior technology will never solve the problem. Unless the West finds a way to get into the Muslim psyche, we'll continue to face suicide bombers and other assorted terrorist acts. We must be willing to expose and openly criticize the irrational and dangerous belief system that is Islam, and take a critical look at Christianity and Judaism while we're at it. Until we do so, the civilized world will continue to be at war with the murderous Muslims.

[joe]

The stories that are getting out about the use of kids as bombers and couriers draw attention to the vile dehumanization they are put through. Their communities are caged in like animals, they're lined up and inspected like cattle at checkpoints, they're turned into "guided missiles" (a term I've seen Palestinian militants themselves use), they're indoctrinated into an ideology that defines them as mere means to an end, and expendable means at that. He had to cut the vest off with scissors - his killers didn't want him to be able to choose.

Stories about kids' dreams of a better life, a kid whose instinct for life overcame his indoctrination, a story about a kid exploited by being paid to carry "auto parts" through a checkpoint - these all make the kids seem a lot more human, and if the meme is played up, there might be a way to use this humanity to turn Palestinian youth away from the fanatical death cult of their exploiters.

[garym]

At least this one changed his mind. That shows he does have some intelligence.

[John]

This is from memory so hope I'm accurate, but a while back I recall reading that a high ranking Hamas leader got wind that junior was planning a change in career plans and taking classes in martyrdom 101: suicide bomber. Daddy wisked junior away pronto stating revealingly that his son was studying to be a doctor and was far too valuable an individual to his community to follow this unorthodox career path.

[esco]

There are almost a billion Muslims in the world, how many of them do you think are suicide bombers? Calling them all "Muslim murderers" isn't calling a spade a spade it's being an ignorant bigot. Maybe if the living conditions of the Palestinians were addressed before people started harping on their religion there wouldn't be mentally handicapped 16 year olds attempting to blow themselves up.

[Todd Fletcher]

esco,
I don't see where "calling a spade a spade" called all Muslims anything - maybe you should re-read the post?

As for living conditions, I doubt it's worse for the Palestinians than for the residents of the slums of Rio, but I haven't heard of any suicide bombers coming from Brazil lately.

[nobody]

Spade didn't say ALL Muslims are murderers. He said their religion has to be examined to determine why so many have chosen that path. It isn't ONLY religion that creates a suicide bomber, but false hopes of a life in Paradise certainly has persuaded more than a few. I don't see too many disaffected Christians blowing themselves up, and there are poor and abused Christians in the world, believe it or not. Palestinians don't have a monopoly on wretchedness.

[esco]

"Until we do so, the civilized world will continue to be at war with the murderous Muslims."

[Sam]

The wealthy polygamist leaders have found a way to reduce the population of surplus males a bit while striking blows at their enemy.

[Jennifer]

"Who wants to have sex with a virgin?" A guy who really, really sucks in bed and doesn't want his woman to know about it.

Comparing the Palestinians to the. . .Rioites? Janeirans? Whatever you call people from Rio. . . is a bit disingenuous. What infuriates the Palestinians isn't the poverty, it's the fact that the Israelites CAUSED the poverty by taking the Palestinian's land and not letting the Palestinians leave their villages to go to work. (Yes, I KNOW the Israelites have some legitimate security reasons for doing so. The reason this problem is so hard to solve is that BOTH sides of the debate are perfectly justified in their hatred for one another.)

I remember reading a PJ O'Rourke piece about a tour he took of South Africa's black 'townships,' back in the days of apartheid. He admitted that compared to the rest of the third world, or even most of the rest of Africa, the black South Africans had a decent standard of living, complete with electricity and plumbing and all that. But they were oppressed just the same, and PJ concluded, "South Africa is one of the few places I've been where freedom wasn't just a matter of dollars and cents." I'd say the same holds true for Palestine.

It's not the poverty causing problems in the Middle East; it's the rage.

[Silver Lining]

The good news here is that, since they got the kid alive, the IDF can interrogate him and possibly find out who supplied him with the vest. Then they can go kill the bombmaker dirtbags.

[Jennifer]

Forgot to add my standard solution to the Palestinian problem: have Germany lop off a section of its country the same size as pre-1948 Palestine, and give it to the Palestinians. After all, it was the GERMANS, not the Palestinians, who perpetrated the Nazi Holocaust; therefore, the Germans, not the Palestinians, should be the ones to pay for it.

[Dope]

I thought it was British imperialism that ultimately caused the post-WWII Israeli land grant "problem".

[Calling a Spade a Spade]

esco,

Murderous Muslims = Muslims who murder

Regards,

[Documentary_ Nerd]

In reference to Todd Fletcher's comment regarding Brazilian street kids, it is true that the desperate youth of Rio and other cities don't become human bombs. However, this isn't to say that the poverty that instills desperation in young Palestinians doesn't have similar results in Brazil. One only need to examine the Bus 174 incident (link below), where a street kid held a bus hostage for hours demanding media attention to the plight of fellow street kids killed by Brazilian police. Does desperation exonerate criminal acts? I'd say no, but I don't think its difficult to see a causal connection.

Link to Bus 174 documentary and articles - http://www.bus174.com/articles.htm

[Greg Newburn]

A river of honey? A river of wine? Maybe if these guys would allow charging interest on loans, people would PRODUCE this stuff and they could enjoy it here, on earth, while they're alive.

I got it. Let's just go drop a fuck-load of honey and wine over there. That way, when some sheikh or whoever approaches them with promises of these great "gifts" from Allah, they can say, "nah, bro. fuck that shit. I got my honey right mother-fucking HERE. YOU go kill yourself, bitch."

[Gadfly]

Something like half the population of the mideast is under the age of 18. I remember back about that age praying that if I could get laid just one time I would happily accept death.

[fyodor]

Jennifer,

At the risk of quibbling to no particular end, you should bear in mind that while the Holocaust sure helped the Zionist cause in the world's view, Zionism did not originate with it.

[wondering]

Greg,

do Palestinian teenagers really sound like American backwoods yahoos?

[todd]

"'Who wants to have sex with a virgin?' A guy who really, really sucks in bed and doesn't want his woman to know about it."

A guy who doesn't like STDs, maybe.

[Matt]

I though Muhammad said that drinking was a sin, so what is up with the river of wine? Not to mention the thought of 72 virgins all and PMSing together reminds me a bit of hell.

[Ghando]

Why aren't the Palestinians smart enough to realize that peaceful disobediance by the entire country would get results so much faster than a few violent assholes killing innocent folk?

If all the Palestinians sat down and stopped working for a couple of months, blocking the entrances to israel and sitting in the farnms in the occupied territories and being arrested by the tens of thousands, wouldn't the israelis have to come to some sort of agreement?

[Jennifer]

Fyodor:
I know that Zionism predates the Holocaust by a long time, but it wasn't until the Holocaust that the European powers, suffering from a guilty conscience after letting a third of the wrold's Jewish population be murdered, decided to make things right by taking land away from the Palestinians and giving it to the Jews.

So with the current mess over there, well, you can't blame the Palestinians for being furious (I would be a suicide bomber, too, if some jerk waltzed into my home and said, "God said what's yours is mine so get the hell out of here before I shoot you"), but at the same time you can't blame the Israelis for being terrified of what would happen if they had to give up their Very Own COuntry and resume the old days of being a minority in a Christian country. (If the land of Beethoven, Bach and Goethe can resort so quickly to savagery, how can the Israelis ever again put their faith in the decency of humanity?)

Seriously, though, why is nobody holding Germany accountable for the current Mideast clusterfuck? (If anybody out there thinks I'm being racist by saying this, let me point out that I myself have enough German blood in me to pass for a Habsburg princess, if I stuck out my lower lip.)

[Greg Newburn]

Wondering,

My characterization of the young Palestinian was not so much "backwoods yahoo," as "young, urban, hip-hop teen." And as much as I loathe that particular style, it's better than "young, urban suicide bomber."

You know, there is a "river" of wine, beer, and all sorts of alcohol about 500 yards up from my apartment. It's called the liquor store. And there's more honey than you could eat in a lifetime at the grocery stores in Gainesville alone.

Who needs Allah when you've got the University of Florida?

Oh yeah. The virgins.

[Huh?]

Jennifer, are you _serious_ when you say you would be a suicide bomber too? You actually believe there's a justification for blowing up buses full of civilians, none of whom you know? Please tell me you're kidding!

[Jennifer]

"'Who wants to have sex with a virgin?' A guy who really, really sucks in bed and doesn't want his woman to know about it."

A guy who doesn't like STDs, maybe.

Posted by todd at March 25, 2004 11:20 AM

That could explain a virgin preference here on Earth, but the Muslim paradise has no STDs; there is nothing to fear from sex except inept virgin teenage boys who don't have a goddam (or Allahdamn) clue what they're doing, and end up ejaculating all over some lucky houri's thigh.

I bet houris have enormous laundry bills.

[Greg Newburn]

THAT, Jennifer, was awesome.

[Warrenfan]

WARREN!!! Where are you at warren. We need to you justify this kids actions. Afterall, the innocents deserve to die because the State is evil!!!

[Jennifer]

Huh? asked me if I am saying that what the Palestinians do is justified. Well, no, but I am saying I understand why they are doing it.

If I were a Palestinian girl, a stranger in my own homeland, and I knew I had no future because the Israelis stole it from me, then I might well think martyrdom preferable to the filthy, undignified slavery they have now. Likewise, if I were Israeli and had friends or family killed in a bus bombing, I'd probably be one of those people frothing at the mouth and demanding all the Palestinian blood I could get. As I said before, BOTH sides have legitimate complaints here.

Thiink about this: if it's the 1880s and a bunch of Cherokees have decided to go on the warpath and kill the white settlers who stole their land, can you honestly say the Cherokees are wrong to feel and do as they do? I don't think so.

[Mo]

Ghando,
Because all it takes i ]one group of people that don't want to deal peacefully and fuck it all up. Whenever there's a ceasefire, it's not the PLO that sets off a bomb, it's usually Hamas or Hezzabollah. It's in their interest to keep the fight going, so they screw it up for everyone else.

[Mo]

Jennifer,
No laundry for the houris, that's just their Hell.

I mean, Hell could definitely be being 1/72nd of a teenage virgin suicide bomber's harem.

[Huh?]

Jennifer, that's not good enough. _You_ are the one who wrote "I would be a suicide bomber, too, ..."!! There's all kinds of martyrdom, but I just don't see the justification for blowing up civilians (including fellow Palestinians and Muslims, and tourists, and children.) If you felt "oppressed" by "occupiers," then you could might justifiably attack the occupiers, but not innocents unconnected to the occupation! That's what this whole war on terror is all about.

Have you given this issue any serious thought whatsoever?

[Jennifer]

MO-
Interesting you bring that up. The Mohammedan heaven is definitely male-oriented; what motivation is there for women to behave? Personally, I have no desire for a female sex slave, and if I did I'd be ineligible for heaven anyway, since homosexuality is supposed to be a sin. Personally, I support Bill Maher's idea of drafting hookers to inflitrate Al-Qaeda and get these young boys LAID.

I'd do my part, too. I love my boyfriend and I am entirely faithful to him, but if I could go back in time and save the World Trade Center by doing Mohammed Atta, I would. To paraphrase Victoria: "Just close your eyes and think of secular democracy."

Also, I have almost no sense of smell, so his bodily stench wouldn't faze me much.

[Jennifer]

Huh-
Again to use my Cherokee example: I don't blame the Indians who killed actual white settlers, rather than going to DC and killing the politicians and Army guys who made the land theft possible. Realistically, if someone has been so horribly victimized it's not fair to expect them to make fine distinctions concerning who is or is not responsible.

[thoreau]

I'm not sure how much good it would have done to get Mohammed Atta laid. Some of the accounts I read of him suggest that, had he not found opportunities for mass murder in Al Qaeda, right now he'd be a really creepy serial killer in some remote area.

But for your typical fanatical 18 year-old idiot, definitely couldn't hurt to get him laid.

Since this country urgently needs a battalion of women to go to the Middle East and blow Al Qaeda, I propose that we recruit the Clinton-era White House interns.

[Tim Cavanaugh]

Why aren't the Palestinians smart enough to realize that peaceful disobediance by the entire country would get results so much faster than a few violent assholes killing innocent folk?

If all the Palestinians sat down and stopped working for a couple of months, blocking the entrances to israel and sitting in the farnms in the occupied territories and being arrested by the tens of thousands, wouldn't the israelis have to come to some sort of agreement?

How soon we forget what we only half pay attention to. The period leading up to the first intifadah was characterized by massive and widespread acts of civil disobedience of exactly this sort. General strikes were called and observed, demonstrations were staged, roads were blocked, etc. The Shamir administration in particular was quite forceful in its response. Don't forget that from 1967 to 1987, there was nothing like the violence you see now.

A more technical argument against civil disobedience: To do it you need access to the court systems and political mechanisms of the country. Ghandi and Martin Luther King, however much their respective systems were weighted against them, had this access; the Palestinians do not. That's an argument I've heard anyway. As I too only half pay attention, I don't know whether it's valid.

In any event, civil disobedience has been tried in the occupied territories, and it had as much effect as a banana cream pie 15 feet in diameter dropped from a height of 10 feet.

[Critic]

Wait a sec...do female bombers get MALE virgins?

[Jennifer]

To add to Mr. Cavanaugh's discussion against civil disobedience: I read that when the German holocaust was kicking into gear, Gandhi recommended that the German Jews try civil disobedience. The Jews' response was that civil disobedience might well work if you're fighting the British under Winston Churchill; it wouldn't work so well against the Nazis under Adolf Hitler. Or against the Israelis under Ariel Sharon, I'd venture to say.

Critic-
As for your question: apparently, if you take the Koran literally, Paradise is ONLY for males. Females haven't any access at all. Even houris are not human women, but succubi made specifically for the sexual pleasure of dead Muslim males.

Thoreau-
You're right about Atta. But what recruiting posters should we make to promote the Whore Battalions? "I Want YOU--to fuck a really ugly guy?" "Open your legs to open their minds?" "Lend a helping handjob?"

Oooo, the possibilities are endless. Such a pity I have to go to an auction tonight.

[Jennifer]

Dean-
I know; the version I read said "Kill them all, fopr the Lord will know his own." I just used the modern version most folks will recognize.

Funny though, that the Hell's Angels should choose to decorate their jackets with a statement first uttered by a Catholic pope. At least the Hell's Angels don't rape little boys.

[Jennifer]

Anyone still reading this? Mo, I like your Solomon idea but must say mine is better for one reason: nobody could be blamed except, possibly, god. How can terrorists attack a meteor?

And think of all the religious implications of a meteor squishing the presumably Holy Land! Hee hee hee. Almost as funny as this thought concerning Israel: "Why did God give his Chosen People the ONLY land in the Middle East without a shitload of oil underneath it?" If that's being chosen, I prefer to be overlooked.

Now I must start cataloguing the mountain of stuff I just bought at the estate auction. This vintage sheet music ought to sell for a decent little profit. Anybody out there interested in buying a collection of Avon pipe-shaped cologne bottles? I can hook you up, cheap.

[Mark Fox]

To quibble with thoreau's wonderful equations: joe also seems to lack Jean Bart's military experience. A Firearm Familiarity Correction Factor (Kevin Carson? Hydroman?) might be useful.

As to Ann Coulter's jaw angles: Do you think she doesn't already frequently do that thing Jennifer stopped short of spelling out?

For the original post: Sending children into war is generally a sign of the bankruptcy of the war effort. They make crappy soldiers, surrendering before exploding, and the like. This event likely devalues Hamas even in many eyes (even arab ones) so effectively that it must be a US-inspired Israeli conspiracy.

[Dean]

Jennifer,

Just a nit to pick:

"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoset" or "Kill them all. God will know His own." answer from Arnaud-Armaury, the Abbot of Citeaux during the sack of Beziers in 1209 as to how to identify the heretics.

Dean

[Lefty]

I love you guys. Laz says "Hi", too.

[dj of raleigh]

"'Who wants to have sex with a virgin?'

If more people took that attitude
we would have a lot more virgins.

[dj of raleigh]

Someone said GERMANY should give ISRAEL a piece of land
the size of Israel so the Jews and Palestinians
and the world could have peace in the middle east.

Germany would surely give Alsace-Lorraine to the Jews.

[mohamed]

It?s a carefully orchestrated publicity by the Israel to justify killing more than 2000 children in the past two years alone. The only way they can get bye with it is to say? see we are only protecting our self?s?