Crowing the Sun Up
Stan Kurtz's latest effort in his ongoing struggle to save America, motherhood, and apple pie from the ominous threat of gay families is an examination of the "effect" of registered partnerships on marriage in Scandinavia. The piece is yet another tour de force destined to transform the gay marriage debate. According to Stan Kurtz, anyway. Alas, nobody else seems to agree.
Andrew Sullivan, for instance, notes that Kurtz manages to refute his own thesis: After citing a slew of factors that make the Scandies less likely to wed, Kurtz pulls his conclusion—that these partnerships have "undermined" marriage—out of a top hat with a flourish, without bothering to explain why they, rather than his laundry list of other factors, are responsible.
Kurtz even cites as one of his key authorities a book by sociologist David Popenoe on the decline of marriage in Scandinavia—a book researched and written well before the extension of any partnership rights to same-sex couples. What do you call that fallacy? Pre hoc ergo propter hoc? Maybe this is that "quantum logic" we've been hearing so much about: The effect comes before the cause.
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Hi Julian,
Kurtz has already acknowledged Sullivan's response, and will respond soon. I'm sure you'll cover that in Hit & Run, as well.
http://www.nationalreview.com/thecorner/04_01_25_corner-archive.asp#023933
If it's as cogent and thoughtful as the original piece... with substantial glee.
Julian,
I'll be looking forward to it! Just please faithfully state one of Kurtz's points, that gay marriage has not strengthened or stablized marriage in Scandinavian countries. Folks like Sullivan have claimed that gay marriage would do just that. Kurtz shows that marriage was already in bad enough shape, and has done nothing but worsen since gay marriage was enacted.
Kurtz's is the type of polemic essay where the author advances a thesis that he/she does not adequately support but then seems to try to reinforce with citations, impressive either by number or caliber but alas, largely unrelated, or even contra (as with the Popenoe citation by Kurtz) to the thesis.
I don't know, it seems to me that Kurtz uses one source to show the state of marriage in Scandinavia, to reinforce his point that it was in bad shape BEFORE gay marriage.
To refute that, Sullivan and Eskridge rely on an unpublished report. And Kurtz is the one using improper sources?
No doubt there are downsides and social consequences to the decline of marriage, but the same can be said of the institution itself. Haven't we all known people stuck in horrible, loveless marriages? When people are miserable, that has social consequences too.
A sort of quasi-libertarian case AGAINST gay civil unions would be...
a) It is unfortunate that the government confers priviledges on people who choose to marry...
b) ...but a case could be made for it when the individuals involved are highly likely to have and raise children (men likely to-- at least-- sire them, and women likely to bear and raise them...with or without stable partnership), because children raised in marriage impose far fewer negative externalities on civilization,...
c) ...therefore it makes little sense to extend these priviledges to self-announced couples unlikely (in most cases) to have and raise children.
Libertarians are pushing past gay-tolerance to gay equivalence...it isn't really the same thing.
would the same rules apply to childless couples. or child-free, if you like the latest buzzword.
which would make some sort of genetic testing before allowing a government-sanction marriage a good idea - healthy offspring are more productive than dead offspring, men with higher sperm counts more fertile (usually) than lower-counted men, etc.
ok, obviously none of this is a good idea and as far as a marriage goes (i.e. a partnership between two people, not a baby-making licensing agreement, which is apparently what it is to some people) a loving gay couple and a loving straight couple are equivalent, near as i can tell.
sadly, there are some truly unromantic people out there...
dhex
you should poperly put the emphasis on my first phrase-- it is UNFORTUNATE the government subsidizes marriage at all-- any reasons would have to be fairly "unromantic" and probabalistic (there wwould necessarily be all kinds of exceptions) and if this troubles you, it would make more sense to question any public support for marriage (though I think a case could be made for it, you WANT to limit the cases). Marriage isn't subsidised to make straights or gays "feel good about themselves".
As a heterosexual, I vow not to enjoy the fruits of blessed heterosexual marriage if I'm aware that homosexuals may do the same.
Eric: "Folks like Sullivan have claimed that gay marriage would do just that. Kurtz shows that marriage was already in bad enough shape, and has done nothing but worsen since gay marriage was enacted."
No they don't. No he doesn't.
xray,
Yes they have and yes he does.
Sullivan has written that allowing gays, especially gay men, to marry would temporize their tendency to have multiple partners and make them more monogamous. This, says Sullivan, would strengthen marriage not just for gays, but for everyone.
Kurtz shows that after gay marriage was introduced in the mid-1990s in Scandinavia, marriage continued its steady decline. Gay marriage did nothing to make marriage stronger.
Eric: Marriage declined in exact parallel with the cod stocks in the North Atlantic. The Scandinavians were most directly affected but I'm sure you will see that correlation for all of western civilization. (You and Kurtz must both support the obvious logic of this observation.)
As to your characterization of Sullivan's position on gay marriage, he may have suggested that to counter the laughable "homo-marriage will weaken hetero-marriage" argument. But his position on gay marriage is not based on the kind of twisted reasoning Kurtz et al use. "I believe that denying gay people any outlet for their deepest emotional needs is wrong. I think it slowly destroys people, hollows them out, alienates them finally from their very selves." (AS NYT Oct. 20, 2003)
Has anyone without an axe to grind tried to prove that gay marriage would have some serious effect on straight marriage? It seems to me that these studies attempting to prove correlation with some social decree will at best show ... correlation. We know that correlation does not prove causation. Has someone posited a mechanism for this deleterious effect on hetro marriage? Perhaps, as an atheist, I am not properly considering the religious implications. Then again, the state choosing to recognize gay marriage doesn't mean the church has to.
andrew - true. it's some sort of horrible tax scam. a legal contract would do just as well and a religious ceremony for those so inclined.
and i would be most happy if it ceased to be a state issue. especially seeing as i have about 5 weeks to go now. 🙂
i wasn't calling you unromantic, for what it's worth. people like stan the man seem to have a terribly darwinian view of marriage (when it suits their purposes). saying that either the bond between two people is eroded simply because gays are doing it or because there's some sort of inherent magico-religious harm in same-sex marriage is both terribly unromantic and disturbing for it's occult implications.
"a loving gay couple and a loving straight couple are equivalent, near as i can tell."
dhex, I agree with where you are going with that (I agree they have equal rights) but disagree with the particular statement. Gay couples are not like straight couples. Just ask a few (if you know any). I think I've told this story here before...but I know a "fella" who would, if he could, get married to his "chum" - pretty much for insurance benefits. He has directly said there would still be other men (fuck buddies) in his life.
I know this is in no way a scientific sampling, but I tend to think (without scientific evidence, I know) this is the rule rather than the exception. Is a "regular guy" I'd have a half dozen girlfriends if the main squeeze thought it was cool. Women are the regulating factor in men's sexual behavior (those fascists!)
All public policy should be based on what bigslacker tends to think.
bigslacker - for what it's worth, i know both straight married couples with open relationships and monogamous gay couples. one of my aunts has been with her partner for more than 10 years now.
Xray,
I understand about causation vs. causation. But if an argument for gay marriage is that it strengthens marriage as a whole, then there needs to be some evidence to support it. The evidence from Scandinavia does not support it.
And try reading Andrew Sullivan if you don't want to take my word for it. Here's his essay from 1989, called "The Conservative Case for gay marriage"
http://www.andrewsullivan.com/homosexuality.php
Here's an excerpt:
There's a less elaborate argument for gay marriage: it's good for gays. It provides role models for young gay people who, after the exhilaration of coming out, can easily lapse into short-term relationships and insecurity with no tangible goal in sight. My own guess is that most gays would embrace such a goal with as much (if not more) commitment as straights. Even in our society as it is, many lesbian relationships are virtual textbook cases of monogamous commitment.
Do some searching at Google and you'll find more and better examples.
Sorry, screwed up the first line. Obviously, should be correlation vs. causation.
one question on my mind is why gay marriages have to be proven to be good for straight marriages. it's not a burden we'd put on couples who want to marry but are physically unable to have children, for example.
even more fundamentally, how can one person's marriage be good or bad for anyone else's in and of itself?
In Scandanavia the norm is to wait to marry; indeed, I know dozens of couples who waited well into their thirties to marry, long after they had children, etc., yet they maintained strong relationships, etc. Indeed, this is a growing trend across Europe.
In the American south, where marraige is the "norm," one sees - according to what I have read at least - a glut of divorces and the like that tear asunder relationships.
Somehow the idea that marraige cures all social ills or is the "right choice" doesn't stand up in my eyes.
If I can try my hand at mind reading, I would guess that the argument that allowing gay marriage would improve marriage as a whole amounts to numbers -- ie, though heterosexual marriage is in decline, gay marriage would tend to bolster the overall numbers, because only the truly committed, and thus durable, gay couples would marry, as they've less societal pressure to do so (and indeed probably have pressure not to do so). Just a guess (*too lazy to google queer theory*)
In any event, Kurtz is in the untenable situation of arguing against gay marriage because it seems to have failed to save straight marriage. In Scandanavia. Kurtz prattles on for pages about out-of-wedlock birthrates, and then connects the dots to those damn homos at the end by invoking the "separation of marriage from parenthood" argument. Thus, marriage = babies = health of society (I guess). Yup, marriage ain't nothing more than an actuarially sound soc. security system for Kurtz.
On a personal note, I've been in a happy hetero relationship for 10 years (married for 3), with no plans to procreate. If Kurtz thinks this invalidates my marriage, he best not say it to my face.
And Bigslacker, I know many homos who are in long-term, monogamous relationships, and they're no more kosher with multiple partners and philandering than my straight-coupled friends. In fact, they hold to the same notions of romance, commitment, "true love", etc., that the straights do. They just happen to throw better parties.
OK, let's go through this one more time:
When you get married you do a number of things.
1) You get a piece of paper from the state recognizing that the two of you (or more in Utah 😉 share all of your property, your financial obligations, responsibility for one another's well-being, etc. It's a perfectly legitimate contract and I have no problem with the gov't recognizing it.
The only problem I might see is that the state doesn't make the terms of the contract very flexible for those who desire such flexibility, but pre-nups do an OK job there. Yes, I know, ideally we should each draft our own contract rather than using the one-size-fits-all offered by the state and then modifying with a pre-nup, but it's still a decent setup for now. One could make the legal aspect "perfect, pure, ideal, and 100% libertopian" with minimal modifications, just specify that the default contract is nothing more than a default which the parties to the contract can modify however they wish before signing it.
2) You have a ceremony, with or without religious involvement, where you promise to love, honor, cherish, etc.
3) You spend ungodly amounts of money on a bunch of frills and nonsense to keep your wife happy.
The first part is an arrangement that ANY two people (or more, in Utah 😉 should be able to make. What if some day I'm old, sick, and widowed, and my brother is the same, so we decide to share financial responsibility and whatnot? It shouldn't be anybody else's business if we signed such a contract. Nor should it be anybody else's concern if two men in San Francisco sign such a contract.
The second part is something for individual couples couples to work out for themselves. It's none of the state's business if two or more people decide to have such a ceremony.
And the third part, the expensive shindig, well, odds are there are already some gay people involved as it is, so why get so upset? My wife and I are Catholic, and the parish music director is gay. That's either incredibly surprising or no surprise whatsoever, depending on how you look at it...
So if the two guys that have been living in the apartment next door to me for the past 5 years get married, my marriage would be "undermined"?
I suppose that's reasonable. Sure. Yeah, right.
"Honey, now that the guys next door pay lower taxes and can insure each other, not to mention hospital visitation rights & joint custody of their 2 kids, I've decided that it's time for us to get divorced so I can sleep around. Marriage is now cheap and easy, because it doesn't have to be with someone of the opposite sex."
"Divorce? Oh, sure, that's no threat to marriage. Not like letting two women getting wed would be. That would be terrible."
Yeah, that makes sense.
Personal moment of truth: well, OK, I'm not wed yet. But still - there should be a separation in this debate between legal benefits and religious sanction.
Civil union? Yah, good.
Religious sanction? Up to the religion. Usually, No is the answer.
The US government should treat people as individuals, not as part of a 'group'.
If I earn a given amount per year, should I be taxed less if my spouse is a man or a woman? Does that depend upon if I'm a man or a woman?
Should I be taxed more if I don't have a spouse or how many kids I have? If so, why?
gay marriage has not strengthened or stablized marriage in Scandinavian countries. Folks like Sullivan have claimed that gay marriage would do just that. Kurtz shows that marriage was already in bad enough shape, and has done nothing but worsen since gay marriage was enacted.
Let's say you have a fever, and decide to regularly take some aspirin. Your fever gets worse. Does that mean the aspirin didn't help, or that the aspirin made the fever worse? Of course not. It doesn't even imply it. For all you know, your fever would have been even worse, in the absence of aspirin.
The rate of interracial marriage in the United States has boomed during the last thirty years. Over the same time period, rates of divorce and premarital sex have climbed, and marriage rates have dropped, abortion has surged, and the number of children born per couple has declined. Ergo interracial marriage is to blame for divorce, promiscuity, abortion, low rates of childbirth and the decline of marriage.
Or so it would seem, if I used the same "reasoning" as you and Kurtz.
It is insufficient to demonstrate that X grew worse after event Y. You have to demonstrate that X grew worse at a rate greater than it would have in the absence of Y. There is no way to do that in a sociological setting; the world is not a laboratory environment.
> a) It is unfortunate that the government confers priviledges on people who choose to marry...
> children raised in marriage impose far fewer negative externalities on civilization,...
> it makes little sense to extend these priviledges to self-announced couples unlikely (in most cases) to have and raise children.
I don't know how much Swedish data translates to the US?
I know a kid right now whose mother had him by a FUTURE marriage.
Gotta keep your options open, I suppose.
I read the Kurtz article the other night, and I agree that he appeared to confuse causation vs. correlation.
But I think he raised some interesting debating points (one of which was commented upon, above), and not necessarily concerning the homosexual union issue:
1)The role an expanded welfare state plays in undermining marriage. If I read Kurtz correctly, he is saying that the welfare state is undertaking (some of) the role of "safety net" that was previously the role of marriage. Is it economically efficient for the state to move the responsibility of safety net from marriage to state-sponsored programs? Is it good social policy?
2)The impact of lack of fathers on offspring, and the economic and social costs.
3)A personal opinion: I frequently see the argument "gee, if a couple can't have/doesn't want children, does that mean they shouldn't qualify for marriage?" and I find it extremely intellectually dishonest. The issue to be addressed is *the institution of marriage in toto*, not individual/several instances.
> Is it economically efficient for the state to move the responsibility of safety net from marriage to state-sponsored programs? Is it good social policy?
Just thought I'd mention I agree with all the responses to my post concerning the "fellas" I know. I did say it was an unscientific sampling (to say the least)! I also know a married guy (married to a woman that is) who has "visited" a house of ill repute in Nevada. We all know the value of anecdotal evidence...
cj (not dj): What's so intellectually dishonest about bringing up hetero couples that choose not to have kids in this instance? If Kurtz wishes to argue against gay marriage because the institution of marriage is about procreation for the betterment of society and gay couples are not procreative (and in his absurd connect-the-dots opinion are detrimental to hetero procreation), then logic dictates that he must also rail against hetero couples who will not and refuse to procreate. If he doesn't, then he's just sprinkling some window-dressing around his prejudices.
I agree with your comments about the federal social safety net undermining marriage. So argue against the safety net, and not gay marriage.
dj,
That would depend on the facts of the case; some spouses may be horrible caregivers, and others saints.
dj,
Indeed, I would perfer to leave my primary caregiving to someone I hired, than to my spouse; also, placing that sort of burden on a spouse tends to shorten their lifespan considerably.
As libertarians, why do so many of you seem to care so much about the effects gay marriage may or may not have on straight marriage? If anyplace the debate would center around the law, shouldn't it be here? I'm entitled to equal protection and due process by way of the federal constitution. The fact that I'm not getting either is just one more example of our government, at all levels, overstepping its bounds. Is it not? To focus on the effects gay marriage will have on straights is akin to focusing on the effects that women's suffrage has on men--it completely misses the point.
Eric:
First you say this:
"Just please faithfully state one of Kurtz's points, that gay marriage has not strengthened or stablized marriage in Scandinavian countries. Folks like Sullivan have claimed that gay marriage would do just that."
Then you quote AS at length to show that he has claimed gay marriage would help stabilize straight marriage. To prove your point you quote:
"There's a less elaborate argument for gay marriage: it's good for gays. It provides role models for young gay people who, after the exhilaration of coming out, can easily lapse into short-term relationships and insecurity with no tangible goal in sight. My own guess is that most gays would embrace such a goal with as much (if not more) commitment as straights. Even in our society as it is, many lesbian relationships are virtual textbook cases of monogamous commitment."
That quote, and the reading I've done of AS' views on the issue, doesn't say anything about the effect of gay marriages on straight marriages. It says gay marriage may be good for gays. One way it may be good is to give young gays stable role models. You and Kurtz are making the leap to its effects on straight marriage, not AS.
Besides the correlation vs. causation non-logic, the major problem with Kurtz's piece is that there is no gay "marriage" in Scandanavia, only registered partnerships. Sullivan and others have, IMO, correctly argued civil unions, registered partnerships (such as in Scandinavia) and other kinds of diluted marriage (especially when extended to heterosexuals as less committed not-quite-marriage options) add much more to the decline of marriage than gay marriage ever could. I beleive what we need is a real pro-family movement in this country that includes ALL families. We need to take a look at what is really toxic to families in our society and gay marriage is certainly not the answer. Overworked and absent parents of any sex, a lack of sueprvision for children, a lack of decent education for children, and as you all pointed out- the welfare state are real threats to the family. Kurtz's hits a couple of interesting points and then completely obscures the issue with his own paranoia to demonize gay people.
Don't forget, Kurtz is the idiot that suggested a few years ago that gay men should not be permitted to marry because straight boys don't want to watch out gay men as leading men in movies. What that has to do with straight boys wanting to marry is anyone's guess.
Kurtz is brain dead. I guess it is fortunate for him that he has a good paying gig at the silly right wing American Enterprise Institute. That place appears to be full of brain dead people.
Eric on January 28, 2004 04:26 PM
>But if an argument for gay marriage is that it strengthens marriage as a whole, then there needs to be some evidence to support it.
Regardless of whether there should be "gay marriage" should exist because it "strengthens marriage as a whole" consider the following. What is a proposed "rational basis" for the state refusing to recognize relationships of same-sex couples (so-called "gay marriage" although there is no requirement for them to be gay) on the same basis that the state recognizes relationships of opposite sex couples?
The Scandinavian experiment confirms what we've seen in the US: traditional marriage is reaching the end of its useful life.
US business and traditional religions are on the warpath because marriage -- and everything that flows from it -- means big business and big government.
Licenses, church services/tithing, catering, jewelry, flowers, bridal gowns, tux rentals, stationery, greeting cards, pediatricians, photographers, hospitality, retail, insurance, theme parks, anniversaries, Christmas, birthdays, taxes, yadda, yadda.
All depend on the predictable revenue stream generated by marriage.
It's a spade. No, really.
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It's safer to play with a man's wife than with his cliches.