Mars Moon Hoax

Bush's proposal is a bit like the Raelian announcement that they had produced a clone--it's a hoax. What's the evidence? To fulfill this not so grand vision, NASA's budget is being boosted by a piddling $1 billion over the next 5 years. A single space shuttle flight costs half a billion dollars! Also, Bush aims to land on the moon again by 2014--that's 10 years away. The first moon landing took only 7 years to achieve after Kennedy announced it. The speech (which was delivered with Bush's characteristic drabness) is just a cynical way to generate feel good news in the runup to the State of the Union. Sigh.

Comments

[Steve in CO]

Ron,

You are absolutely correct. Sigh.

Steve

PS Who wants to bet that a private company gets to Mars first?

[Steve in CO]

Personally I think the feds would be much more likely to succeed in the quest for the moon/mars if they would stop NASA from strangling space start-ups in the craddle, and provide tax incentives to private concerns willing to take the risk for what would surely be immense profit in the future. Who wouldn't scrape together 10 grand for a trip around the moon and back? Sure, a ticket would be much more than that at first, but isn't everything that way?

[R. C. Dean]

First, the Reasonoids whine because Bush is threatening to spend a lot of money on space.

Then, they whine when he doesn't spend a lot of money on space.

[Andy D.]

RC, I think the whining over the spending of all the money is perfectly legitimate. I also think the whining over what looks like a political ploy is also justified.

[ed]

Don't whine. Be happy.

[Trey]

It could be worse; our government could really try to go to the moon and to Mars. At least they're only flushing an addition $ billion down the toilet. I was pleasantly surprised...

"only a billion" - what a country.

[Ronald Bailey]

Andy D. understands the nuances of the argument perfectly. 🙂

[joe]

Think of what another $billion could do if we took the damn manned shuttle flights off the table!

[Kirsten Tynan]

It's just a political ploy?

Whew! That's a relief (albeit an expensive one).

🙂

[mak_nas]

that shuttle has to go, joe, i agree. what is it good for that cheap rocketry can't do better?

but i'd like to think that, if they mothballed the shuttle, they'd simply cut nasa down to nothing. have 'em built cheap robots to be launched by china or europe (in the near-term) or private launchers (in the long-term).

[Larry]

Trey:

"It could be worse; our government could really try to go to the moon and to Mars. At least they're only flushing an addition $ billion down the toilet. I was pleasantly surprised..."

Yeah. The last time we flushed a bunch of money down the toilet and went to the moon all we ended up with was a lot of research into things we needed to get there. That spun off into a bunch of useless products like freeze dried food; medical imaging equipment safer than X-rays; satellite cellphones, mapping, and weather prediction; and the computer you're reading this on.

Obviously it would be much better to keep the money here on Earth and build infrastructure projects on the order of new stadiums for national sports leagues. And after all, if we just cancelled the whole space budget we could support the welfare effort for almost twenty minutes.

[StMack]

Worse things have been proposed and done in the name of buying votes - temporary work permits for illegal alliens - $400 billion over 10 years for medicare prescriptions -

[R. C. Dean]

Ron - I understand what lies behind both complaints. I think there is some substance to both, although this latter gripe strikes me as being somewhat obtuse (My god! the President of the United States is engaged in politics and PR!)

It just strikes me as symptomatic of libertarianism's problems that, no matter what Bush does (spend money on space! wait, don't spend money on space!), it generates a complaint.

Until libertarians understand the importance of politics/PR, and until they understand the importance of bringing positive, forward-looking messages to the table, they will continue to be a fringe party stuck in the backwaters of history.

[Jason Ligon]

How to arrange it so that a $1 billion check made out to "Jason Ligon" would be a political coup ...

[Eric]

To fulfill this not so grand vision, NASA's budget is being boosted by a piddling $1 billion over the next 5 years. A single space shuttle flight costs half a billion dollars!

I share a lot of your cynicism about the prospects for this project, especially given the laughably drawn-out timetables that have been set. But to play devil's advocate, it's been mentioned that most of the necessary funds for it will come from diverting resources currently allocated to the ISS and space shuttle programs.

[Dan]

That spun off into a bunch of useless products like freeze dried food; medical imaging equipment safer than X-rays; satellite cellphones, mapping, and weather prediction; and the computer you?re reading this on.

We also got nifty commemorative T-shirts.

It cost us the better part of a trillion 2004 dollars to go to the Moon the first time. Perhaps you truly believe that the best way to develop useful technologies is to spend enormous quantities of money on useless endeavors and see what people come up with. I disagree; I think the best way to come up with useful technologies is to let private citizens and corporations do it.

At least it's only $1 billion this time around. Assuming we get proportional results to the ones we got on the last moon shot, the spinoff technology should be something along the order of "less-filling lite beer".

[dj of raleigh]

A 'big view' of the future is wise.
Space programs make government and taxes seem worthwhile.
I like being even that small part of it.

There is always a military aspect to space domination,
and spin offs of it, which feed the technology edge we hold.
Space is an end run on funding weaponry, and vice versa.

Best to have our place staked out,
in space, under the seas, and the Antarctic.
Asia is going to be a big player in the future,
bigger than the European Union, I believe.
Once China gets going in space (just put a man there),
the US isn't going to like being "left behind."

China isn't going to be paralyzed over a few deaths in space,
and they have already aquired secrets of ours...
one more reason they can't launch our military satellites for us.

Don't depend on private ventures serving the US interests in space.
(They might use water vapor on the lunar surface
to make a big reflecting bill board on the moon.
Can't you see a big gestalt 76 on the orange ball? grin)

In any case, in five years another president
can urge congress chop the funds to use for 'the children.'

The trick is going to be getting some of the money
into states other than Florida and California. There's the political payment. California beware, unless Arnold can deliver in 04.

[shane]

Steve in CO, I'll bet it's not a private company that reahes Mars first.

China will be first.

[Andrew]

This confirms what I said in a previous post: from Star Wars to Brilliant Pebble, to maybe nothing.

This is the big bad bear the Libertarians should slay? Like Dean (or is it Clark, now?) can't find all kinds of crap to spend your money on?

[shane]

dj, what's wrong with billboards?

I think NASA should sub out all the outer hull of the Mars ship to sponsors.

Imagine a landing sponsored by Pepsi or Coke.

[Andy D.]

I think it'd be really cool to have the moon be one gigantic red, white, and blue Pepsi logo. Especially if it helped with some cool space exploration. Sure, traditionalists would loudly lament the "corruption" of nature's beauty, but I've seen that plain white ball in the sky all my life... it's time for a change! Sure, it'd probably mean that I wouldn't be able to get a Coke during my lunar vacation, but I'd settle for a Pepsi, what with the great view of Earth and all.

[dj of raleigh]

Shane, good idea...
Why not "NASCAR" the space program, and even the military uniforms. Image tanks with STP logos; The TIDE aircraft carrier; the 2nd Marine division renamed the "Pepsi Generation."

Out comes Pvt Jessica in her "Coke" hat.

See how the space program is already lifting our spirits!

[Rick Barton]

Not too many complaints from this quarter that he's not spending enough money on space. It's the cynical projection that's the problem.

"Until libertarians understand ...the importance of bringing positive, forward-looking messages to the table..."

At the cost of honesty? No way! And, until Bush quits pursuing such an anti-libertarian agenda he will continue to lose mainstream conservative support.

[Phil]

That spun off into a bunch of useless products like freeze dried food; medical imaging equipment safer than X-rays; satellite cellphones, mapping, and weather prediction; and the computer you?re reading this on.

Despite the conventional wisdom regarding that last one, semiconductor microchip manufacturers were already well on the way to modern computer technology well before the Apollo program. That technology would have emerged, moon program or no; once semcos learned how to squeeze more than a few hundred transistors on a chip, in fact, the eventual emergence of microprocessors was almost a given.

[Dave Straub]

Methinks Shane has been playing NationStates.

http://www.nationstates.net/

[Trey]

One thing (of many) I respect about Congressman Ron Paul, is that he voted against NASA's budget... with Johnson Space Center in his District. And he would get reelected! This was his first stint in congress.

Anyway, Bastiat wrote about only seeing the benefits of our government's "investments" in space, only he referred to it as a broken window. Who knows what those hundreds of billions of dollars might have accomplished if we got to keep them.

Look, I love space, and I think it's the future and the hope of mankind, but I hate NASA.

[Will Spencer]

Funding space exploration is not a valid use of taxpayer dollars.

Just keep repeating that. Remind everyone you know. Call your congressmen and remind them.

[Douglas Fletcher]

Just think of what a paradise this world is going to be if Bush spends that $1 billion on healthcare or education instead of space exploration. My god, the humanity, the man is a criminal!

Only $1 billion away from paradise and Bush/Hitler snatches it away from us, once again.

[DFH]

Maybe this is the new Palestinian homeland?

[Rick Barton]

"...if Bush spends that $1 billion on healthcare or education instead of space exploration..."

It would be nice if he left it in the owners pockets.

[Rick Barton]

"Funding space exploration is not a valid use of taxpayer dollars."

"Call your congressmen and remind them."

And, while were at it we should tell them to cut all government programs. Not just cuts in the rate of increase; real cuts! Actually most programs should be abolished but we didn't get into this mess all at once so we probably won't be able to extract ourselves instantly either.

Contact your congressperson and senators and tell them we demand cuts now: http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/

[Robert Hutchinson]

Until libertarians understand the importance of politics/PR

Many of us do, in much the same way as we understand the importance of atomic bombs.

[Ged of Earthsea]

"Steve in CO, I'll bet it's not a private company that reahes Mars first.

China will be first."

Judging by the history of our fair continent, America will get there first (subcontracting a great deal of the work to an Indian consortium) but other nations will catch us and establish longer lasting colonies, many of which will be economically motivated, others religious.

Pentecostal space program anyone? Note: 500M in Africa/Asia and rapidly rising. Planet of the Pilgrim's Pride...

Substitute Spain for America, Italy for India, and England and France for the other nations in the above account, and you have the story of this continent's settling.

[ed]

I'd turn the Shuttle sideways, cover it with logos and make the morld's most bitchin' dragster ever.

[R C Dean]

"Until libertarians understand ...the importance of bringing positive, forward-looking messages to the table..."

At the cost of honesty? No way!

Nice admission that you don't have anything positive and forward-looking to say, Rick.

[joe Izzo]

I'm not a fan of space exploration in general, but I do like that Bush is telling NASA to reorganize and cut out the wastefulness. Interestingly, some out there are complaining this proposal is unfunded, while in the next breath saying that the US spends too much on "non-essentials" such as space exploration, instead of health care etc.

[joe Izzo]

I'm not a fan of space exploration in general, but I do like that Bush is telling NASA to reorganize and cut out the wastefulness. Interestingly, some out there are complaining this proposal is unfunded, while in the next breath saying that the US spends too much on "non-essentials" such as space exploration, instead of health care etc.

[Madog]

NASA is huge and wasteful, the shuttle is a waste, the international space station is a waste. Ideally, NASA should be completely reorganized and the shuttle replaced. The ISS is already up there, so it's kinda pointless to scrap it now. I cheaper launch vehicle would go a long way toward making it affordable to return to the moon and mars. I'd like to see NASA reogranized to use cheaper launch vehicles, promote private development of space, and continute with the useful unmanned missions.

[mak_nas]

The last time we flushed a bunch of money down the toilet and went to the moon all we ended up with was a lot of research into things we needed to get there.

i would take issue with the implication that there's a tech boom at the end of this rainbow. first off, if we go now, we're going on the cheap (so to speak) -- the vast majority of the technology to do something like this already exists, so why reinvent the wheel? those technologies (particularly miniaturization of existing technologies) that nasa had to invent in 1965 they can buy at wal-mart in 2005. so i sincerely doubt there will be a technological boom behind manned moon landings part 2.

moreover, as was noted above, how much did nasa really invent that would not exist today if not for the moon program? computers? composites? velcro? we'd likely have all of them. nasa's moonshots invented some, but merely accelerated the development of much -- something the marketplace might have done just as well in time.

anyway, it'll never happen. $1bn -- that's couch change to bush. this is a karl rove idea, not a christopher columbus idea.

[Kirsten Tynan]

"I'm not a fan of space exploration in general, but I do like that Bush is telling NASA to reorganize and cut out the wastefulness."

Of course, this is not new. Many people have said this about NASA and have been doing so for a long time. What do you find so likeable about an unoriginal soundbite? Has he said anything that leads us to believe that any positive change will come anytime soon? To me its just another example of Bush running off at the mouth. It's easy to just *say* things that people like to hear.

[Vic the Appraiser]

Dan,

The original moon shot cost one TRILLION (2004) dollars? Come on. I don't know what the actual cost was, but I guarantee you it wasn't 10% of GDP, or two and a half times our entire defense budget. Not even close.

Personally, I'd be happy to trade my portion of the $1 billion increase - that's three bucks - and get something cool out of the deal, than continue pissing money away on the idiotic space station and the shuttle money pit. Low earth orbit is soooo 1950s.

[Rick Barton]

"Nice admission that you don't have anything positive and forward-looking to say, Rick."

Nice illogical inference of my statement, R C
Of course it was a pro-honesty statement. Honesty: Something the Bush administration seems to have forgotten along with the principle of limited government.

Why do you waste your time with that big spending,
big regulating prez? There are some good, principled Republicans worth fighting for, here are some of the best ones:

http://www.ntu.org/features/congress_by_numbers/ntu_rates_congress/2002/tpf_house_2002.php3

http://www.ntu.org/features/congress_by_numbers/ntu_rates_congress/2002/tpf_senate_2002.php3

[Jerky]

The Moon song
Dave Hook
Copyright 2004

Well it?s one small step for man
And one giant leap for mankind
Those were the scripted words for Neil Armstrong,
On July 20th 1969

That grainy footage shown on TV
At one time actually convinced me
But how do we really know?
Because Walter Cronkite told us so?

I say

No man has ever walked on the moon
Now before you dismiss me as a loon
Listen to the facts and you may even find
A story that just might change your mind

You see it all started back in 62
JFK told the people what he would do
Put a man on the moon by the decades end
Land, and bring them safely home again

He was a great speaker we all know
And he even banged Marilyn Monroe,
He was also just a politician,
But Jack knew Jack shit,
about the complexities of any space mission

Now NASA had to get their ass in gear
And suddenly their hearts were full of fear
The Russians were way ahead of them in the space race
Now Kennedy was setting them all up for disgrace

Their funding stood at about a couple BILL
Would not admit defeat, and never will

So they said?

If we can?t make it, then we?ll fake it
If we can?t do it, then screw it
We?ll film it in the desert, or on a sound stage
And put it on the TV and the front page
We?ll shoot it all in black and white
Even though we got a color camera on the flight

We?ll bring jeeps, but bring no telescopes?

We?ll hit some golf balls all around,
Then stick a flag into the ground

That should be enough for the boob tube watching dopes

There are dangers about space travel most don?t know
Radiation gets more intense the farther out you go
It starts at about 1000 miles out
Go farther than that and die, there?s no doubt

Unless you shield yourself with 8 feet of lead
Any less than that, and surely you?d be dead
But to build a ship like that, why even try
It would be much too heavy to ever fly

Kennedy thought this was plausible

NASA knew it was impossible

But they still wanted to get paid

So they said to themselves?

If we can?t make it, then we?ll fake it
If we can?t do it, then screw it
We?ll film it in the desert, or on a sound stage
And put it on the TV and the front page

We?ll bring extra lighting just for fun
Even though the only light source is the sun

But we need them for the photos were going to take

No photos of stars or other stuff,
Some young astronomer may call our bluff

It never can come out it all was fake

Cause it?s much too dangerous to really go,
On live TV? I don?t fucking think so
We?ll tape the whole thing in advance
For an unhappy ending we can not take the chance

3 dead astroNOTS would not boost moral
And anyway we?ll be long dead before they cry foul
We?ll show some them meteors we found on earth if they want proof
When you control the media you control the truth

Full body photos of Neil on the moon, there are only two
And he has never ever granted an interview
But this does not leave me too surprised
Ask him no questions, and he?ll tell you no lies

He knows

They couldn?t make it, so they faked it
They couldn?t do it, and said, ?Screw it?
They filmed it in the desert on a sound stage
And put it on the TV and the front page

Sent a satellite feed of their con
To a few on the ground who knew what was going on

Then beamed it out to the all the excited folks

They were never 25, 000 miles away
George Bush say?s were going back someday?

But the first time around it was a hoax

They slowed the film, and hid the wires
Very clever fucking liars,

But

The first time around it was a hoax

Dave Hook Copyright 2004

http://www.lifeiciency.com

[Chad]

You can do anything, you can go anywhere. Its all possible, but americans seem to have lost there edge on exploring. They have plans made to go to mars already. They have plans to make a new telescope. These projects take money. Money they do not have. If we would have gave more money to nasa who knows where the might have taken us. Without money they are limited to what they can achieve.

[chad]

You can do anything, you can go anywhere. Its all possible, but americans seem to have lost there edge on exploring. They have plans made to go to mars already. They have plans to make a new telescope. These projects take money. Money they do not have. If we would have gave more money to nasa who knows where the might have taken us. Without money they are limited to what they can achieve.

[drdog]

Dear NASA
I would think twice before taking on an endevour
which has not been tested. How long have you sent up shuttles with out a hitch? Didn't you expect a problem from the beginning or at least eventually? When I learned there was no back up plan to insure the return of the PEOPLE you sent up I was AMAZED. Any (well almost any) business on this planet has a back up plan to protect their company,employees,interests or at least the perception of the above mentioned. I find it incredible that there was not another shuttle set to go up in case of problems on every mission. If a back up plan was not economically viable then maybe we can't afford to be undertaking these challenges. If we decide to "stay the course" I hope we will send criminals on death row instead of scientists or well trained personal. I don't think a few good men(or women) are expendable despite what the government or Mr. Bush might think.

[Lauren]

Hi there,

My name is Lauren and I am currently producing a television talk show entitled ?The Debate Show? for Viacom.

For an upcoming episode focusing on ?Science Today?, I am searching for someone who opposes NASA and our involvement in space exploration. Someone who believes our money and time could be better used elsewhere (like here on Earth). The ideal candidate is a passionate and articulate person who welcomes the opportunity to come onto television and share their point of view. If any of you are located in the Los Angeles area and might be interested please email me back at [e-mail], and I would be thrilled to go into more detail. Even pointing me in the right direction would be very much appreciated!

Thank you and hope to hear from you soon,

Lauren

Producer, ?The Debate Show?

[e-mail]

[Ahmad Saif]

EMAIL: [e-mail]
IP: 212.253.2.201
URL: http://preteen-sex.info
DATE: 05/20/2004 05:02:25
We are as God made us, and often a great deal worse.