You Don't Have to Be Crazy to Be a Prisoner Here

…but it helps. A piece on The American Prospect site looks at the growing number of mentally ill housed in the country's prisons. They don't seem terribly well equipped to provide treatment:

Offense: 104. Violation: Dangerous Contraband. Comments: Piece of Glass. Final Result: Guilty. Record of Proceedings: Inmate appeared before the committee to address the charges. Inmate stated: 'I'm guilty. I was hungry and I was eating my arm that day. I found the piece of glass in my cell after I busted my light out.' Disciplinary action: Segregation one year.

Comments

[Jean Bart]

Morpheus,

Oh no! A foreign language! *wilt* This is all very ironic given that is we French who are considered to be afraid of English. 🙂

[Citizen]

JB,
I can't really think of a good reason to post that in French, other than to draw attention to the fact that you are a francophone. Without any comment or translation, it appears to be neither for the entertainment nor enlightenment of other readers, and I concluded that it was posted for your own amusement.

I do not promote English-only policies. I am not afraid of French, but I never studied it (I'm decent with Spanish and just scratching the surface of Bosnian/Serbo-Croatian). But I would expect, not unreasonably, that if you wanted to offer insight, you would do so in a means accessible to your audience.

[speedwell]

Well, if you aren't afraid of English, then why did you come to an English-language site and post in French?

[Jean Bart]

Citizen,

Because certain phrases simply do not translate. If you don't like this, then learn other languages.

[Madog]

Well, Foucault was French, so there's nothing wrong with quoting the original language he wrote the quote in. Of course, it would have been polite to provide a translation in the primary language of the audience. It's not like he was quoting Shakespeare in French or something, that would have been odd.

[Jean Bart]

speedwell,

Because certain phrases and words simply do not translate properly; they lose some or most of their meaning in translation.

For example, see the word surveiller. There is no English equivalent of this term; indeed, most English speakers would likely think of the term "surveillance," yet that is almost wholly wrong. I myself cannot think of a term which suffices, or even a phrase; well, perhaps "watch over with vigilence and violence" might do well enough, but that his a hackneyed phrase at best. Therefore, I am compelled to use French in such a circumstances due to the limitations of English in this area (I am forced to do the same thing when English does not translate well into French).

[Jean Bart]

Hmm, excuse the poor HTML.

[Jennifer A.]

Jean Bart--

Only idioms are untranslateable from one language to another. I don't believe anyone is insulting your Frenchness; they're just pointing out that if your message is important you should make an attempt to make it understood.

When talking to my high-school students, for example, I would say "Everybody get outside! The room in on fire!" rather than "Make haste, good people, for the flames of thy destruction do ever draweth nigh around thee." This is not because I think my students would "fear" old-fashioned language; it's because my main goal is to deliver a message, not show off my superior vocabulary or some other je ne sais quoi.

[Jean Bart]

Jennifer A.,

Actually, lots of French words have incomplete, or simply no English equivalent; and of course, we structure sentences in ways that are totally alien to English. Think of the impersonal imperitave.

[Jason Ligon]

To hear Foucault say anything appealing to me is a surprise, regardless of the language.

Post modernism is just laziness elevated to the level of a Discipline.

[mak_nas]

if you want us to understand, jb, post in english.

if you want to giggle at your pysche, post in french.

if you want us to quit taking you seriously altogether, post in french and then tell us we should all know french anyway.

[Russ D]

Can you all spare us the Quebecker-type nonsense please?

I do find it interesting that my state, Illinois (pronounced in the vernacular neither in correct English nor in correct French) shut down all its mental health facilities years ago, yet can't stop begging for the building of more prisons. the end result is pretty much the same, without the illusion that the state actually cares anymore.

There is an interesting correlation between the "piling on" of charges by prosecutors and a consition the article mentions:

"But in the bizarrely punitive world of prisons, self-mutilation and attempted suicide are rules violations rather than cries for help. Tearing sheets into strips to serve as a noose, for example, is "destruction of state property," a punishable offense."

Cures aren't necessarily good for business.

[Jennifer A.]

Jean--
There's a difference between a word being "untranslateable" versus "untranslateable in one word." For example, there's the German word schadenfreude, which means "taking pleasure in the misfortunes of others." Granted, there is no single English word with the same meaning, but English speakers are perfectly capable of understanding and discussing the concept; they just need more words to do it. It's gawkier and less graceful than the single German word, but if I want to get my point across to English speakers I can't simply say "schadenfreude;" I need to explain it.

The English idiom "raining cats and dogs" can't be translated word-by-word into French, but even our Francophobic government would not say that the French can't grasp the concept of "there's a heavy rainfall."

[Jean Bart]

Jennifer A.,

The notion that different languages produce different concepts shouldn't be surprising. Johanthan Culler has an excellent example of this - in English there are two words - "river" & "stream." In French there are "fleuve" and "rivi?re." These appear to be similar, right? They aren't. In English rivers are large, and streams are small - that is bodies of water. However, in French, a "fleuve" flows into the sea, and a "rivi?re" flows into a "fleuve." In other words, there is no English equivalent for the terms.

[Jean Bart]

mak nas,

Your ignorance is not my problem.

[Jean Bart]

Jennifer A.,

If my statements have a higher learning threshold, such is the case.

[Jennifer A.]

Jean--

You say "fleuve" flows into the sea, while a "riviere" flows into a fleuve; again, there is no one word in English to describe this but I still can understand you perfectly, thanks to your explanation. The word may not be translateable, but the concept certainly is.

[Jennifer A.]

Jean--

You say "fleuve" flows into the sea, while a "riviere" flows into a fleuve; again, there is no one word in English to describe this but I still can understand you perfectly, thanks to your explanation. The word may not be translateable, but the concept certainly is.

[Fred Gillette]

It is very true that our prisons are filled with the insane. The cause is something that should be discussed. But instead I see a bunch of retards getting snippy at Jean Bart's brilliant post.

[Jean Bart]

Jennifer A.,

A few days ago the editors of Hit n' Run posted an article that was in Dutch; without any translation. I didn't see anyone going insane then. What is the difference here?

[mak_nas]

Your ignorance is not my problem.

lol! then why do you post at all?

[Jean Bart]

mak nas,

For the people who aren't ignorant.

[terri lingua]

I say invite all languages.
This isn't a private party.

[fyodor]

First let me say that I found Jean Bart's posting in French milding amusing, and little more or less. If he wants to post something that few if any of us are able to understand, that's his business, but it surely didn't do me any harm to lay eyes on it.

Second, let me say to Jennifer that even if Jean Bart is (at this writing) ignoring your point, I take it very well and you are absolutely correct. I believe it is the opinion of linguists that except maybe in rare and extreme cases, anything that can be expressed in one language can be expressed in any other. Meaning is not ties to any particular language.

[alan greenspan]

JB:

To underscore your point (and since you referred to the Economist article in another thread):

Alan Greenspan made an announcement today. "There are three kinds of economists: those who can count, and those who can't".

If humor can't translate into French, I accept that it's reasonable that French philosophy may not be translatable into English. Que sera, sera.

[mak_nas]

oh-HO -- i see. for THEIR edification.

i understand now that it's *my* problem. i am appropriately humiliated and humbled, sir. i shall resume my place amongst the unwashed masses. 😀 lmao!

[natebradley]

tributary
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=tributary

[Jennifer A.]

Jean Bart-
You say our French ignorance is not your problem; however, it IS your problem, if your goal is to communicate.

Because of my education, I understand fourteenth-century Chaucerian English better than most people. However, if I am debating you and need to quote Chaucer to back my point, quoting his original words won't get the point across, unless I translate them.

I think the question most people have is, if you think Foucault makes a good point, why not express it so that it can be understood?

And yes, this is far from the original subject of debate, but most great discoveries were made while pursuing tangents, so hooray.

[Jean Bart]

"Meaning is not ties to any particular language."

Certainly it is.

[Jean Bart]

Jennifer A.,

Even if this were all true, that does not explain the hostility, nor the "pass" given to the previous Hit n' Run post. And no, your French ignorance is not my problem; indeed, I had to learn English to converse in it. It wasn't the duty of English speakers to learn French, and it is not my duty to post at all times in English.

The fact is that I've posted here three times in French over past six months, and even when I did provide a translation (as was the case the first time), people were apoplectic. Excuse me if I do not get the hint of bigotry.

[Jean Bart]

fyodor,

It is well established that poetry is largely untranslateable.

[Jean Bart]

Jennifer A.,

Or rather, get the hint of bigotry.

[Jean Bart]

Jennifer A.,

And that is my last statement on the matter of language; I'm tire of this bullshit on your part.

[joe]

"mak nas,

Your ignorance is not my problem."

If you were hoping to contribute to a dialogue, convince somebody of something, share an idea, or in general contribute to what goes on in this space, then yes, the fact that your method of posting makes it impossible for you to communicate with us readers is very much your problem.

Time and place, JB. There's nothing wrong with wearing pajamas, but don't wear them to a dinner party. And if you do, don't pretend there's something wrong with the other guests for laughing at you.

[joe]

And along these lines, JB alluded the other day to his experience in the French Marines.

Marines are, of course, amphibious forces. As in, well, you know.

I think the general thrust of the joke is pretty obvious, but I'm having trouble coming up with the ideal deployment. Little help?

[Jennifer A.]

Joe--

Magnifique! Voulez-vous couchez avec moi, c'est soi?

(Actually, I don't want to go to bed with you, but that's about the only French phrase I know.)

[mak_nas]

I'm tire of this bullshit on your part.

lol -- please don't, jb. i find you most entertaining when you are playing the uncompromising arch-gaullist.

it's safe to say that i had no idea, prior to encountering you on these boards, jb, why so many societies in western civilization viewed the french so dimly. i've been there (it's beautiful of course); i've parisian friends who are not at all bloated and arrogant (quite the opposite, really); i never saw any reason for the horrible stereotype.

but i can say, even if you refuse to edify me on other points, you have rather effectively (if unwittingly) educated me there. 🙂 i now find it hilariously ironic when you act as though bewildered by francophobic sentiment.

[Jean Bart]

joe,

Actually, Marines aren't really exclusively amphibious today; at least in the French experience. There is even a mountain regiment today.

And those how understand French understand me; and those willing to take a tiny effort to translate it. Certainly what I wrote did not merit the apoplectic attacks that we've seen here.

[Douglas Fletcher]

I wonder why an intelligent person like Jean Bart occasionally insists on being such an idiot.

Oh well, der Frumper ich oinki oinkum.

[Jean Bart]

mak nas,

You are a language whimp; a coward as it were. Stop making excuses for this.

And its American society that the world views so dimly, not France.

[Jean Bart]

Jennifer A.,

If I wanted that I would go to New York.

[mak_nas]

who's apoplectic? i've smiled broadly all the way through this thread. it's reason's version of junk tv -- hardly educational (at least not for straightforward reasons), but highly entertaining nonetheless.

[mak_nas]

mak nas,

You are a language whimp; a coward as it were.

lol -- it gets better!

would it diffuse your uninformed hatred if i told you i, in fact, am learning french at the moment? though you are forcing me to reconsider somewhat.... 🙂

[Jennifer A.]

Jean Bart--

No, no, in the old days you would have gone to New York, but thanks to the Internet you can now enjoy it in your own home! I understand it works for pornography, too.

Actually, I've always had a fondness for the French ever since I read (a translation of) Voltaire's collected works.

[Jean Bart]

Jennifer A.,

Pornography may satisfy you, but not I.

mak nas,

Hatred? No, I don't hate idiots like yourself. Pity is the emotion you evoke.

[mak_nas]

And its American society that the world views so dimly, not France.

i would actually posit that it is the world that views both of our societies rather dimly in parts -- mine for its government, yours for its people. what's the english quip? -- 'france is far too good for the french?' 😉

[Jean Bart]

mak nas,

For such a reviled people, we certainly do garner a large number of tourists to visit the people of France and the things that we have created.

[mak_nas]

I don't hate idiots like yourself

fair enough -- i'll take your pity along with all the entertainment. thank you for distracting me through a slow afternoon, jb.

[Jean Bart]

mak nas,

Given that you are, as you write, learning French, one would expect that you would have translated the phrase, instead of the incessent whining. Accordingly, I suspect that you are a liar.

[fyodor]

Jean Bart,

On the meaning not being tied to language, my source is Dr. Lila Gleitman, an internationally recognized linguist who is (or has been) the president of the American Linguistic Society and is a mamber of the National Academy of Sciences. She has described to me many experiments that have backed what I have said. So, who is your source for your contrary assertion? Foucault? 🙂

As to poetry, obviously that's different since poetry depends on other nuances than simply meaning.

[mak_nas]

not a liar -- though that would fit far better in the framework of the illusory mak_nas you've managed to construct for yourself today, i'm sure 🙂 -- but simply a beginner.

it isn't a sign of a tolerant or humble man, is it, to believe that much could be learned about someone from a few blurbs posted to a website -- much less enough to make such outrageous claims as 'liar' and 'idiot'? lol -- while i've no idea at all about you as a person, jb, you've again reinforced some ugly points of the french stereotype.

[Jean Bart]

mak nas,

Even if there are aspects to me that are negative, why not simply treat me as an individual? It seems strange that your first impulse is to treat me as a nationality as opposed to an individual.

fyodor,

Most of the department at the University of Oregon's Linguisitics Department.

[mak_nas]

For such a reviled people, we certainly do garner a large number of tourists to visit the people of France and the things that we have created.

indeed, it is a wonderful place, with some wonderful people. which is why i find you -- or, rather, your web personality -- an anomaly of sorts. but no matter. you are fun to watch, at least.

[Jean Bart]

mak nas,

All human beings are anomalies; only the ignorant think that all people of a nationality are the same.

[mak_nas]

It seems strange that your first impulse is to treat me as a nationality as opposed to an individual.

it isn't my first impulse, actually -- i'm not the thoughtlessly nationalistic sort -- and i don't think i would if you didn't so pridefully and brazenly put it out front as you do. you've made yourself inseparable from the concept (intentionally, i have to think). there is a very good reason that virtually everyone here considers you "the frenchman", as it were, and not just jean bart.

[Jean Bart]

mak nas,

Indeed, if I am being anything stereotypical, its not French, but the stereotypical "grand ecole" style. Which is of course a rather fun, fast-paced, witty form of debate.

[ed]

I kinda doubt JB speaks for all the French. He's one individual. I, however, speak for all enlightened humanity.
Kidding! Kidding!

[Jean Bart]

mak nas,

That's a refelection of your prejudices and ignorance then; it speaks nothing of me.

[Jean Bart]

ed,

I never claim to speak for France or Frenchmen; I speak for myself.

[ed]

JB

As it should be.

[fyodor]

"Most of the department at the University of Oregon's Linguisitics Department."

Jean Bart, are you serious or making that up? If serious, I may have to sic Dr. Gleitman on them as they are apparently in the linguistic dark ages. But oh well, Dr. Gleitman's words make perfect sense to me and Jennifer did a fine job of explaining to you why your example of the lack of parallel words for different kinds of rivers was moot. You can believe as you wish on the matter.

[mak_nas]

That's a refelection of your prejudices and ignorance then; it speaks nothing of me.

and i can say the same of everything you've said about me. could it be otherwise in this environment? this insipidly shallow type of dialogue will always say far more about the speaker than the subject when addressing personalities.

[Jean Bart]

fyodor,

The linguistics department at the University of Oregon is the best in the world; and I am completely serious. Jennifer did explain anything. And you can blind your eyes all you want to.

mak nas,

And I thought you were enjoying yourself?

[Jean Bart]

mak nas,

From my perspective I do not look seriously upon people who are so easily distracted by a mere four sentence quotation in a foreign language.

[Jason Ligon]

fyodor, JB, et al:

See Stephen Pinker's "The Language Instinct" for a very good case that we have an evolved mentalese independent of our spoken language.

Meaning is evolved in mentalese, and translated into various languages. Translation difficulties restrict the communication of a specific idea across language barriers, but they do not restrict comprehension of the idea itself.

[Jean Bart]

Jason Ligon,

The problem is that makes little sense to me given my own direct experience.

[fyodor]

"they do not restrict comprehension of the idea itself"

Dr. Gleitman would certainly concur with that. Jean Bart sounds rather religious when he says it contradicts his "direct experience." JB, how do you know your "direct experience" was not fatally biased? That's what experimentation is for. Still, there are always going to be experts who disagree with each other and we all have to decide who to believe based on who makes the most sense to us. At some point I may ask Dr. Gleitman (my aunt, BTW) about this best in the world linguistics dept at U of Oregon. Since she may ask me, JB can you tell me one or more of the prominent linguists there who back your view on the conceptual exclusivity of languages? Thanks!

[Rich]

JB,
The best in the world? According to who? And who at the university is behind these theories? Can you give us a name? Can you point us to a paper or discussion of this issue by someone with credibility?

Quite frankly, you are wrong, but I'll give you the chance to back up your case.

Jason,
Translation difficulties restrict the communication of a specific idea across language barriers

I think this could be stated more clearly as "Translation difficulties make the communication of a specific idea more difficult...". Great Book, BTW.

[Rich]

JB,
The best in the world? According to who? And who at the university is behind these theories? Can you give us a name? Can you point us to a paper or discussion of this issue by someone with credibility?

Quite frankly, you are wrong, but I'll give you the chance to back up your case.

Jason,
Translation difficulties restrict the communication of a specific idea across language barriers

I think this could be stated more clearly as "Translation difficulties make the communication of a specific idea more difficult...". Great Book, BTW.

[Rich]

JB,
The best in the world? According to who? And who at the university is behind these theories? Can you give us a name? Can you point us to a paper or discussion of this issue by someone with credibility?

Quite frankly, you are wrong, but I'll give you the chance to back up your case.

Jason,
Translation difficulties restrict the communication of a specific idea across language barriers

I think this could be stated more clearly as "Translation difficulties make the communication of a specific idea more difficult...". Great Book, BTW.

[Rich]

Doh!

[Jean Bart]

Rich,

Echo.....

Fyodor,

How do I know that your aunt's work isn't fatally biased? The University of Oregon is well known in linguistic circles.

[Citizen]

A translation for the Rich-impaired ... posting in triplicate translates to: "Look at me, look at me, look at me!" Damn, that's what got us here ...

Just kidding Rich.

JB, from the top (Because certain phrases simply do not translate. If you don't like this, then learn other languages.)
Fine, fair enough, but that attitude is a little unreasonable for somebody that appears to want to be taken seriously.

And for the record, I don't remember any Dutch H&R postings, but the writer probably should have been hacked on.

[Jean Bart]

Citizen,

I don't understand why you think it is some great bit of bragging on my part that I can write and speak French; its my mother tongue. Its no more bragging than you writing in English. Indeed, if I were bragging, it would be by writing English.

[Rich]

Way to avoid the questions JB. Come on now, how about some sources for your #1 in the country assertion. And some names and papers behind your linguistic ignorance. If they exist and you are familiar with them, as you assert, you should be able to produce.

[Jean Bart]

Citizen,

Indeed, I wrote the phrase because it pleased me aesthetically to do so; its beautiful. Butchering it in English didn't seem ethical.

[Jason Ligon]

JB:

My wife, who has a level of competency in Spanish comparable to yours in English, said as much when she started the book. She perceived the shifting of mental gears to be very fundamental, to the point that while we were in Japan, she became convinced that the lack of verbal shades of meaning in Japanese limited their ability to think in precise terms about some concepts.

As she has gone through Pinker's work (which is experiments on and developments of some of Chomsky's hypotheses), she has changed her mind.

For example, Pinker goes into the difference between a pigeon (a combination of words from other languages absent any grammatical structure) and a creole (a combination of words from other languages with a unique grammar imposed). Studies indicate that if you have a pigeon and you want a creole to come from it, all you have to do is teach a child the pigeon. Children have grammar instincts that will create a grammatical structure out of thin air to impose on the structureless pigeon. A similar phenomenon can be observed in deaf children who sign with grammar, even if their teachers and parents don't.

In any event, the book is worth a read.

[mudflap]

I got sick of hearing my kids arguing all afternoon and decided to check out Hit and Run for a change of pace. Noticed eighty comments on this particular thread and decided to check it out. I'm going back to listening to the kids.

Mudflap

[Rich]

From what I've seen from a quick google search here are the top linguistic programs (Phd): MIT (well, duh), Stanford, University of Arizona, University of Chicago, UCLA, OSU and so on. The University of Oregon was 26th. Of course, this was from a nearly 10 year-old NRC study so things could have changed. JB, balls in your court.

[Jean Bart]

Rich,

What ball? You know where to go look, so do so. I answered fyodor's query.

[Jean Bart]

Jason Ligon,

All of this may be true; but the fact is that to think in French is different than to think in English. Its based on culture, and that culture informs the language.

[Rich]

JB,
You no more think "in french" than I do "in english". (Yeah, I know I'm setting myself up for a terribly witty reply) You really do need to learn some basic cognitive science and linguistics before you go spouting off your nonsense.

BTW, I visited the University of Oregon's Linguistic department website, they have quite a few papers posted prominently. I couldn't find one which supported the backwards view of cognition and language which you are convinced they support. Funny, if they did hold such a view, against the consensus of most of the linguistic and cognitive science community, one would expect to see it.

And yes, I do understand your argument, in the latest post that cognition is informed by culture (and, of course, language being part of culture also informs cognition). But that is a completely different idea than that of untranslatable concepts.

[Citizen]

Qu'arrive-t-il si un anglais apprend fran?ais hors de la france? Fait ses fran?ais contiennent la culture aussi?

I know that doesn't translate right, but that's kind of the point. I think what you're describing is an intranslateability (is that a word?) of a culture, but that seems pretty distinct from language

[fyodor]

"How do I know that your aunt's work isn't fatally biased?"

Jean Bart, well obviously since I don't have any links to the experiments she has performed on the subject, you don't. Hopefully, however, you can grasp the difference between basing one's belief on "direct experience" versus experimentation. Now, not all experiments are good ones. I've listed my aunt's qualifications already (I will add here that she holds a professorship at the University of Pennsylvania), and hopefully that demonstrates to some degree that she knows her shit. Beyond that, well I've already discussed the dificulty in choosing between disagreeing experts. Although I strongly suspect you've misunderstood the work of the U of Oregon linguists.

"that culture informs the language"

Culture and language are different items, non? But even culture differences don't necessarily prevent us from understanding each other, though I suppose in extreme circumstances they may.

Having said all this, if you simply liked the sound of what you wrote in French, you probably should have said so earlier. Since poetry takes into account issues such as the rhythm of the words, it is indeed more unique to a specific language. That said, I don't believe anyone knew you were doing that to be poetic. THAT said, I reiterate that your post did me no harm and I never had any reaction stronger than mild amusement.

[Citizen]

If I were bragging, it would be by writing English.

Indeed. It is a feat.

[Jean Bart]

"Having said all this, if you simply liked the sound of what you wrote in French, you probably should have said so earlier."

Actually I did; that was the entire point of my argument regarding the uniqueness of the language.

Reading Foucault in French is like reading Coleridge in English; its simply what is proper and most meaningful.

Rich,

Of course I think in French. Right now I am thinking in English. They are very different experiences.

fyodor,

Argument by expertise is a logical fallacy.

[Jean Bart]

fyodor, Rich, Jason, mudflap, et. al.,

As a means to overcome this impasse, I shall read the work by Pinker.

Rich,

Unable to resist, I shall take you up on your offer - you don't think at all. 🙂

Is there a French translation of Pinker? 🙂

[Jean Bart]

fyodor,

Something that perhaps Americans do not understand about France is that we love our language; thus the idea of finding it aesthetically pleasing when an author has used it well is not alien to us.

Also, what's the title of this work?

[fyodor]

Jean Bart,

Yeah, well then what is argument by assertion?

Anyway, I'm glad to see others on this thread are in agreement with me on how the consensus of linguistics pros see the issue so that I won't have to worry about being doubted by anyone but you if I reiterate the point in the future. And meanwhile we'll just have to go on scratching our heads over your strange French mind! 🙂

[Citizen]

Jean Bart,

Actually, according to pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/tli.html there is a French translation, L'instinct du langage. Published by Odile Jacob. campusi.com said that amazon.ca has it, but I can't find it there.

[fyodor]

Jean Bart,

There's this old Pink Floyd movie called Obscured By Clouds in English and La Vall?e in French. (Both are spoken in the movie.) There's this secret magical valley they're looking for in the mountainous outback of Australia. The last line of the movie, after the characters climb up a mountain and are near exhaustion, is, "La vallee, je la vois!" It's a running joke between me & my girlfriend that sometimes when we spot something we'll say, "La [whatever], je la vois!" I'm not still not sure if I understand *loving* one's language per se, but I'll concede again that the aesthetics are not so easily interchangable.

[Phil]

However, in French, a "fleuve" flows into the sea, and a "rivi?re" flows into a "fleuve." In other words, there is no English equivalent for the terms.

"River" and "tributary," for heaven's sake.

Also, having read Pinker's Language Instinct as well as the superlative Words and Rules, and having more than a layman's but less than a PhD's interest, I can assure you that:

A) You are waaaaaaaay out in left field on the idea that there are concepts that are untranslateable. While it might take a long time and a lot of words, there is no concept that cannot at least be transmitted between speakers of different languages enough to continue a conversation. There is no serious school of linguistic thought that would disagree with this. Those that do, do so because they are being purposefully iconoclastic, or don't like Chomsky, or something.

B) You don't think in French, but you do think you think in French. Nor do I think in English, but I think I think in English. We all think in (as I believe Pinker refers to it) "Symbolese," but because we do not have direct, conscious access to those deep structures in the brain -- after all, do you perceive yourself correcting the 180-degree inverted image that light forms on your retina? -- our mother tongues tend to be the "go-between" for the deep structure and conscious thought.

C) The French idiom for heavy rainfall with which I am familiar, although my French training lies 18 years behind me, is much better than the English "cats & dogs." "Comme une vache qui pisse," if I recall correctly?

[Robert Hutchinson]

Something that perhaps Americans do not understand about France is that we love our language; thus the idea of finding it aesthetically pleasing when an author has used it well is not alien to us.

Yes, because all of us Anglos treat English as a workhorse and nothing more. Or, as it was so eloquently put by that great historical figure, Calvin:

"Yakka foob mog. Grug pubbawup zink wattoom gazork. Chumble spuzz."

So, prisons are full of crazy people, huh?

[Phil]

The idea that Americans have no appreciation for aesthetically pleasing construction in their own tongue is such transparent bigotry that I'm surprised you even bothered to float it. Shakespeare? Joyce? Yeats? Eliot? Cripes, David Mamet? Dr. Seuss?

And that goes double for the idea of poetry being untranslateable. If that were true, how would English-only Americans have ever read Pushkin, to name just one?

[fyodor]

Phil,

I wouldn't say poetry is untranslateable. But mightn't the aesthetics change between languages? It's often said that Germans can't sing rock 'n' roll. There's an old saying, "Something was lost in the translation." While I agree any concept can be made clear with enough effort (and usually not all that much), I think it makes sense that poetic aesthetics may often only be approximated. Sure, we can read Pushkin, but there's no guarantee the aesthetics would be the same. I will fully admit at this point that since such aesthetic appreciation is ultimately subjective, it may not be possible to test for this.

Also, of course English speakers can appreciate poetry. But I would concur with Jean Bart that the idea of being in love with the language itself is probably less common among Americans than the French.

[John Thacker]

On the matter actually at hand, this result is partially, perhaps even primarily, because the practice of being involuntarily committed to mental hospitals, something that was, after all, rife with potential for abuse, was largely ended by reforms. Reforms, mind you, with wide support all across the political aisle. (Including from libertarians, because being involuntarily committed strikes at the heart of libertarian beliefs.)

Due to this, prisons have replaced mental hospitals as the homes of the involuntarily committed mentally ill.

[Evan McElravy]

>>All of this may be true; but the fact is that to think in French is different than to think in English. Its based on culture, and that culture informs the language.

[anon]

So what your all saying is - nobody gives a fuck about mentally ill people being put in prison including us.

[Kevin Carson]

Absolutely amazing! This thread went off-topic earlier and more spectacularly than any I've ever seen.

[Kevin Carson]

And Jean Bart, you've got a hell of a nerve saying some things can't be adequately translated from French into English. Why, just now I pasted the text into a machine translator--and here it is!

Thanksggiving shall be a error as about qualify that evolution about " derive detective car the activity detective herself display as a rule aprs and about any crime , in order to allow her mise at seat any process forensic about sanction auquel her am traditionnellement subordinate.

[Jean Bart]

Surveiller et punir

[Jean Bart]

Ce serait une erreur que de qualifier cette ?volution de "d?rive polici?re", car l'activit? polici?re se d?ploie normalement apr?s et autour du crime, afin de permettre la mise en place du processus judiciaire de sanction, auquel elle est traditionnellement subordonn?e.

[Citizen]

According to freetranslation.com the above translates to:
Oversee and punish

and

This would be an error that to qualify this evolution of "police drift", for the police activity deploys itself normally after and around the crime, in order to allow the placement some places judicial process of penalty, to which one she traditionally is subordinated

However, I translate it as saying: "Look at me, look at me, look at me!"

[ed]

Ut-way, ean-jay?

[Julian Sanchez]

It's a quotation from Foucault's "Discipine and Punish"--a pretty interesting book for libertarians, by the way, probably neglected because of the author.

[Jean Bart]

Citizen,

French is my native tongue; are you saying that it is arrogant of me to use the language of my nation and culture? Why are people here so afraid of the French language?

[Morpheus]

Jean,
No more so than it would be for me to go to a site written entirely in French and then post in English. Which, honestly, I would expect to result in being ignored, at best. A far more likely result would be having scorn and derision heaped upon me from all sides.

[Evan McElravy]

>>The fact is that you were talking about "Americans" - British writers aren't Americans. And it is not hair-splitting. If I were in a discussion about Frenchmen, and then I suddenly changed to Quebecois writers, I would expect someone to tell me how flat headed I am. While Quebec and France both share French as their dominant language, they are indeed two very different places, as any Frenchman who has visited Quebec, and vice versa, will attest to.

[fyodor]

I'll moider ya's, I'll MOIDER ya's....

[Jean Bart]

Phil,

Tributary is not an equivalent term for "rivi?re"; a tributary refers (as I understand it) to any flowing body of water which flows into another, larger flowing body of water, no matter whether that larger river flows into the sea or not. A river may or may not be a "fleuve."

Let me repeat: a "fleuve" flows into the sea, and a "rivi?re" flows into a "fleuve." Rivers may or may not flow into the sea; and tributaries may or may not flow into rivers which flow into the sea.

[Jean Bart]

Phil,

"The idea that Americans have no appreciation for aesthetically pleasing construction in their own tongue is such transparent bigotry that I'm surprised you even bothered to float it. Shakespeare? Joyce? Yeats? Eliot?"

Well, these aren't American writers; they are "British" writers (if we think of Joyce's Ireland as part of "Britain").

And I did use the term "perhaps."

"And that goes double for the idea of poetry being untranslateable. If that were true, how would English-only Americans have ever read Pushkin, to name just one?"

You can translate Pushkin into English or French or Italian, but you lose much in the translation.

[Jean Bart]

fyodor,

If all of this is so easy as you claim it to be, then why do translations of particular works cause such controversy? And why are there so many variants when it comes to particularly hard works? Think of Heidegger's "Being and Time" and the controversies that have been dealt with over his text and its translations.

[Jean Bart]

"And Jean Bart, you've got a hell of a nerve saying some things can't be adequately translated from French into English. Why, just now I pasted the text into a machine translator--and here it is!"

Actually, I would argue that it cuts both ways. I would no more think that a translation of Coleridge or Dr. Johnson or Wilde into French is adequate, as I would think a translation of Diderot, Bataille, or Cocteau into English is adequate.

[Jean Bart]

Phil,

Try the following for heavy rain: "Il tombe des hallebardes." Litterally - "halberds are falling."

[Jean Bart]

Evan,

George Eliot of course.

And while they may share a literary culture, they are indeed different literary cultures.

[Phil]

Speaking of honing reading skills, Jean, I'll thank you not to suggest to me that I don't write precisely what I fucking mean in my own language. To wit, "The idea that Americans have no appreciation for aesthetically pleasing construction in their own tongue . . . "

Quick: For 1,000 points, what is the native tongue of Americans? I made no reference whatsoever to place of origin. I didn't say, " . . . in their literary culture," I said, " . . . in their own tongue." And I meant it.

American English and British English are not different in any ways more significant than is true of English spoken in Maine and English spoken in Missouri. And more to the point, British English from Shakespeare's time differs more from modern British English in orthography and spelling than American English does today from British English.

And yes, I was speaking of T.S. Eliot.

Actually, its not close at all; indeed, there is no English equivalent of the term ["riviere"].

Then why do I understand what it means?

[Phil]

Tributary is not an equivalent term for "rivi?re" . . .

No, but when we're talking about translatability, it's close enough, which is thhe point. So the French employ unique words to describe flowing water based on where the water ends up -- I get it. So does anyone else to whom it is adequately explained. So whenever I see the word "riviere" in context, I'll understand its meaning. See how easy that was?

Well, these aren't American writers; they are "British" writers . . .

Mamet is decidedly not British, nor is Seuss, and I don't think that American English and British English differ significantly enough that your point is much more than hair-splitting. But if you're going to go there, how about Hemingway? Or Fitzgerald?

[Jean Bart]

Phil,

"The idea that Americans have no appreciation for aesthetically pleasing construction in their own tongue is such transparent bigotry that I'm surprised you even bothered to float it. Shakespeare? Joyce? Yeats? Eliot?"

Well, these aren't American writers; they are "British" writers (if we think of Joyce's Ireland as part of "Britain").

You need to hone your reading skills.

"No, but when we're talking about translatability, it's close enough, which is thhe point."

Actually, its not close at all; indeed, there is no English equivalent of the term.

[Jean Bart]

Phil,

The fact is that you were talking about "Americans" - British writers aren't Americans. And it is not hair-splitting. If I were in a discussion about Frenchmen, and then I suddenly changed to Quebecois writers, I would expect someone to tell me how flat headed I am. While Quebec and France both share French as their dominant language, they are indeed two very different places, as any Frenchman who has visited Quebec, and vice versa, will attest to.

[Heather]

"And those how understand French understand me; and those willing to take a tiny effort to translate it."

So what you're saying is rather than take the time to translate your own thoughts into the primary language of your audience, you'd rather we hop on over to alta vista and have a machine do the translating? Yes, I can see where a computer translation would express your ideas more accurately. It's not like your English is very good-- no, wait, it's excellent.

[ed]

JB

Don't you ever sleep?

[Jean Bart]

ed,

No, not when I am working on a large project. I try to sleep four hours a day, but it is hard.

[Jean Bart]

mak nas,

BTW, I meant to give you this URL earlier, as you are interested in travelling to France:

http://www.bonjourparis.com/

[Posters, or patients?]

Okay, here's how we settle this: mak_nas vs. Jean Bart in a no holds barred RPS match (thats Rock, Paper, Scissors for the overeducated). Best two out of three, winner takes on fyodor for the title.

[fyodor]

"If all of this is so easy as you claim it to be, then why..."

Jean Bart,

I believe the only thing I said about the ease is that it can be done with some effort, usually not very much. Please note the usually. Obviously I don't know about the Heidegger situation, and perhaps you're making it up as you apparently did with your University of Oregon linguistics dept troll (I'm glad I never got around to bugging my aunt about that!). If there is any truth to it, I would venture to guess that either they were making a big fuss over nothing or splitting hairs to such a degree that it only would have mattered to a very small percentage of the population. Even if there were real differences of minute nuance that were worth arguing over, my guess, from what I've learned from the discipline of linguistics, is that this would be very rare. If you're still wondering about this, I would consult a reputable linguist about the apparent contradiction. But for the time being, I will continue to take your assertions that you cannot express your meaning (as opposed to aesthetic beauty) in any other way than in French as popycock.

And BTW, tributaries are usually expected to flow into another stream. I suppose technically they don't have to, but that's the first thing most people would expect from the word.

[davidf]

phil,

although i do understand your point about american english and british english being the "same language", i do disagree with your assertion that US speak in ME and in MO are about as different as brit-us speak. it's not that easy, and it's more divergant than that. new world vs old world languages is a cool topic, and looking at spanish, french, and english from their heritages to the new world is really cool.

there are some dialects of brit speak that are difficult for us speakers to understand, just as there are (mainly southern) dialects of us english that are tough for brits to understand. when talking "standard" or "received" forms, you're probably right, but then the "standard" form of the east is still less different than the western (midwestern) form.

still english in the us and between US, IRE, CA, AUS, SA, NZ, UK, etc. are all not as drastically different as, say, german is, anyways... (Jean Bart, what about Quebec vs France?)

(and there are elements of shakespeare's english that are closer to US english today than brit speak, ivz: {can,can't})

have a great weekend,
drf

[Anonymous]

Having found myself both in the prison system and in the mental health system at various times of my life -- I would easily choose prison.

The people who wrote this report sound like they reviewed the prison system, but not the mental health system.

I doubt they would believe me if I told them how much unimaginably worse the mental health system is.

[Stafford Ted]

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DATE: 05/20/2004 02:03:43
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