Charlie Hustle Agonistes

Forget the Code Orange alert.

The real specter haunting the US is the Code Reds threat figured by the nation's second-most famous compulsive gambler: Pete Rose.

As Charlie Hustle brings his trademark hyperactivity and Moe Howard haircut to the press tour for My Prison Without Bars, the real question is not whether Pete belongs in Cooperstown (of course he does). No, the real question is how can we conclude the situation equitably and get on with the rest of our lives? (The Rose case is like a sports version of the Israeli-Palestinian issue.)

Here's a solution proffered by an old friend, Marty Conte of Bloomberg. It has the virtues of workability and it should leave everyone involved happy with the outcome: Tell Rose he will automatically make the Hall of Fame at the time of his death, and then hopefully he kills himself. If that doesn't push him over the edge, bet him he can't kill himself.

Comments

[Daze]

Maybe Rose could kill himself live on QVC, after autographing the shotgun.

[Geotech]

Wow. I'm glad I don't care about Baseball. At least in Boxing no one pretends to be a moral authority.

[Russ D]

Aren't all games essentially gambling anyway? "I bet I can beat you!"

Any side wagers are pretty much meaningless.

And if Pete betting for or against his team resulted in harm to players, then what is Jeff Torborg's excuse? He put 3 complete pitching staffs on the DL (The White Sox, Mets, and Marlins) fer crissakes!

[John Q]

Lets not forget that the act of betting on a baseball game thru a bookie (which Rose was doing) is not only against the laws of baseball but against the law, period.

As is use and possession of illegal drugs. So what?

Rose should be in the Hall of Fame for our sake, not his. I'm happy with saying he was a bad, evil manager, but his playing skills are unquestioned and no one ever questioned his playing ethics like they did Shoeless Joe Jackson's.

[Warren]

I've always thought it was absurd to keep Pete out of the HOF because of gambling.

One of the best arguments he makes is how harshly he's being dealt with compared to others. I have to agree. I don't think his "crime" was a serious as; steroids and other performance enhancing drug use, cheating (corked bats, juiced balls etc.), repeat violent assaults, etc.

I think it's obvious the league cracked down on Pete because they had already sucked all the money they were going to get out of him. If he had been busted while he was still wowing em on the field, I doubt his wrist would even bruise from the slap.

[Douglas Fletcher]

I seem to remember that the main reason for Major League Baseball's strict rules about gambling wasn't so much a concern for the character of their players, it was a reaction to the infiltration by organized crime into boxing. They figured that any appearance that they were in bed with the mob would bring a world of trouble, including disillusionment and anger from fans, and troublesome ordeals like criminal and Congressional investigations. Worst of all, they'd lose money.

How they can break the iron rule without inviting more of same kind of trouble, I can't see. I'll lay odds that Pete never makes it back to baseball, or ever gets in to the Hall of Fame short of his deathbed.

Anyway, here's a link from an interview of Shoeless Joe Jackson, the original gambler who got thrown out. He seems to have gotten on with his life after baseball well enough.

http://www.blackbetsy.com/jjtruth.htm

[Russ]

Don't like Pete Rose's exclusion from Cooperstown?

Start your own Hall of Fame.

[Russ D]

Let's not forget that gambling is what made football surpass baseball in popularity. Because gambling is the real American pastime.

[ed]

Russ,

Cleveland will soon be running out of bodies for its Rock 'n' Roll Mausoleum. Maybe they'll take ole Petey.

[SteveInClearwater]

ED:....Steve, try #23, Don Mattingly.

SinC: Holy cow. I had mentioned that during my 15 years of playing ball (from 1968-1982) that I had always used #14.

Beginning in the mid eighties and until his retirement, Donnie Baseball was likely my favorite player....kinda spooky that you'd name him...

#23 it is. (Also the number for Ryno Sandberg, another great one from same time period...and neither ever played in a World Series)

[ed]

Steve,

Also Mike Jordan, but that's another story. Ryno came up short again on the Hall vote. I thought Donnie Baseball was a sure thing until his back betrayed him, but he epitomized the way an athlete can conduct himself on and off the field: the antithesis of Pete Rose.

[Jon H]

I wonder if Rose has ever been propositioned by a woman saying he can be in her 'hall of fame' any time...

[Robert Hutchinson]

pete rose tried to smuggle a duffle bag stuffed with $100,000 through customs on trips back to the states from japan. twice. got caught both times. gentlemen, these are crimes. they call it tax evasion.

Perhaps we could put him into a Heroism Hall of Fame just for this? Good on you for trying, Pete.

[Jean Bart]

I assume this is a sports issue; what sport is it about?

[ed]

It's about religion, actually: Baseball.

[richard]

Baseball...and gambling from within...I can't believe this "of course he does"...no, he broke the rules, the rules that have been in place for over one hundred years.

The Pete Rose situation is endemic of the lack of principles that abounds in our society. Just because someone expresses remorse and confesses to breaking the rules after over a decade of boisterously claiming innocence does not justify a reevaluation of the punishment that was deserved.

I am ashamed that so many believe that Rose should be let back in the game. I loved watching Charlie Hustle and I have many of baseball cards, but I lost all respect for him when he wouldn't come clean. He ruined baseball and he was punished with a permanent ban from the game...What part of permanent says that permanent is temporary? I want to know. Can you explain that to me Nick?

[Jason Ligon]

He ruined baseball? I thought the players strike(s) did that ...

[richard]

No, Rose ruined the game for me...what killed baseball was free agency.

[ed]

Pete's a creep and a liar. His campaign for acceptance is truly pathetic, but his stats are etched in stone. No need to set his ugly mug in bronze.

[Gordon Shumway]

I've heard he gambled while he was coaching the Reds (even calling bets in from the clubhouse), but what I haven't heard was who he was betting on.

If he was betting against his own team, then he deserves the trouble he's gotten.

But, if he was betting for his team to win, I don't see the big deal. It's just another type of performance bonus.

I don't buy that whole cock and bull story about how he could have gotten into debt and been pressured to throw games either. That could happen to anyone in sports with an expensive habit. Coach X likes good, expensive wine. Spends more than he can afford, runs into debt, credit goes sour, borrows money from a loan shark, can't repay, throws a game or two. I don't see MLB banning expensive wine. Doesn't make any sense, but hey, they can run their league how they like. Doesn't mean I'm going to pay for their sissy crap.

[Argyles]

As I understand it, a player suspended for life can petition to be reinstated after one year. Whether such a petition would be approved, or even reviewed, is another matter. Several banned players, such as Black Sox infielder Buck Weaver, petitioned the commissioner in this manner.

[Argyles]

As for whether Rose is a gambling addict, I say no, he isn't. Biogs of Rose say he liked being the "bad boy," and things like playing the horses were always part of his life. Nobody with his verifiable drive and determination is incapable of kicking the gambling habit. He chose to keep on doing it, even after it put him out of baseball and in jail; he calculated that, in time, public sentiment would help him get him back into baseball. He may have bet on the wrong horse this time.

[SteveInClearwater]

Unlike other 'addiction' type behaviors, which afflict many ballplayers (like all people) Rose's betting on baseball tampered with the very fabric of the game (thx to M Rhyner of Hardline).

Rose lied about betting. Then when the evidence mounted against him, he acknowledged betting, but not on baseball.

Then when the Dowd report demonstrated that he had bet on baseball, he said 'not on Reds games'.

Now he has a book out and confesses the betting on baseball, but not on Reds games.

His history of lying suggests to me that he is still lying, but looking to sell books.

If Rose bet only on the Reds, this is still a blight, on accounta the days he did not make a bet on Reds, the bookies had indicator that they were a 'bad' play and adjusted their lines accordingly. Thus, Rose's actions had a direct effect on the gambling lines, from an 'insider' angle.

I am 43 years old and have always enjoyed The Great Game of Baseball more than other team sports.

As a sandlot player and organized player of over 15 years, I always, repeat always wore #14.

I've even carried the number 14 into later years as a suffix for cyber passwords and such....but with latest round of BS from Charlie H, I must renounce my allegiance and find a new 'lucky' number....Any suggestions?

[Stephen Fetchet]

Right on, Gordon - players could never be pressured into throwing games for money.

Besides, keeping Rose out of the HOF is just tired old conservative morality. Whether or not somebody gambles on their own performance has nothing to do with how they will perform and nothing to do with the integrity of the game.

DOD run terrorism futures market, anybody?

SSA operated private investment accounts, anyone?

[Citizen]

I understand banning him from the game por vida, but what does that have to do with keeping him out of the Hall of Fame? How does recognition of one's achievements constitute "playing the game"? I'm more of a hockey fan so maybe I just don't get it?

Further, I can't possibly see how "betting on baseball tampered with the very fabric of the game" but juicing up to set homerun and sluggin records is somehow kosher. The juicers are NOT only affecting themselves, but their entire team, and therefore the entire game.

[Geotech]

If he was a good enough player, let him in. Jesus, if I were him, I wouldn't have denied it or apologized. Boxers bet on themselves to win all the time. Bernard Hopkins bet $100,000 that he'd stop Felix Trinidad before the 12th round, and he did. He's still hall of fame bound. I'll never understand baseball fans.

[Highway]

Gordon and Geotech, I thought about the same way you did until about 3 days ago. Then I learned that, according to people who play baseball, the #1 rule in baseball is 'Don't bet on baseball'. Apparently it's in every clubhouse, drilled into every player from the beginning of their career to the end. Not 'Don't bet on your own team' or 'Don't bet against your team'. Don't Bet On Baseball.

As a non-baseball fan, I agree that what he did really doesn't seem that bad, as it seems that he didn't throw games to fulfill bets. But given that the prohibition is such a part of baseball, I've revised my opinion. He should not be enshrined in the Hall of Fame, as he violated what seems to be THE cardinal rule of the game that he wants to be remembered by.

[Jon H]

Could someone define or explain "Agonistes"?

It keeps popping up here. I get the gist, but I think I'm missing the reference or something.

[Splash]

He didn't bet on his team to win as a player. He bet on his team to win as a manager. The difference is that he had control to make a particular game very important to the detriment of future games (overusing the best pitchers, etc) in a sport where the goal is to win over a long 162 game season--you have to pace your team, going all out for a single win can cost you several wins in the future. Betting for his team to win is bad, but not as bad as betting for his team to lose or throwing games. Let him off with time served and put him in the hall of fame, unless there is evidence that he bet against the Reds.

[Splash]

Yes, betting for your team to win will get you banned from baseball for life. That is a fact. The question is whether that is an appropriate punnishment. The rule was established in the 1920's and hasn't been revisited because Pete Rose is the only case since then that deals with this issue. It's hard to see why there shouldn't be a harsher penalty for throwing a game than there is for betting on your team to win.

[ed]

SteveInClearwater:

#23 symbolizes everything right in baseball:
Don Mattingly

[John Q]

I won't pretend to be objective: I grew up just north of Cincinnati in Dayton during the 1970's and 80's and am a die-hard Reds fan. Pete Rose is one of the greatest baseball players ever. Paul Molitor? Dennis Eckersley? I know they were good players, but you wanna compare them to Charlie Hustle?? Pete Rose must be in the Hall of Fame.

That said, the man is a total a**hole. Further, for someone who was such a winner in the game of baseball, he is a pathetic loser in the game of life. Did he ever bet against the Reds? Wouldn't surprise me, I have to say. Any ball club that hired him in any capacity would be stupid to do so.

[Rick C]

Look, he broke the rules, and the penalty is what it is. Yeah, ignoring that, he does deserve his place in the HoF. Too damn bad. To make a rather overwrought quote, "let it be a lesson to the next ten generations that some things come with too high a price."

Or possibly, induct him into the Hall of Infamy instead. Or if he *does* make it into the HoF, make sure that prominent mention is made of the way he sullied his own name.

[AJMB]

Pete Rose is a scum bag! The guy won't even help his son avoid bankruptcy. He has the numbers to be a first ballot hall of famer, but I seriously doubt if he would ever get close to the 75% minimum required for entry. Hell, even former teammates won't even speak to, or for, this asshole. As far as I'm concerned, the only way this schmuck gets into the HofF is if he buys a ticket. And, even then, I'd charge him extra. SinC: No need to change your number, just your sport. Dave Keon wore #14 for the Toronto Maple Leafs and the Hartford Whalers (hockey). He now is retired, and lives in Florida. Among the interesting stats for this gentleman of the game is that, after a 20+ season career, spanning the 60's - 80's, he received only 1 fighting major, and, in that fight, he kicked ass.

[anon]

From the prospective of an ex pro baseball player
(minor leagues): The first thing you see before walking into any professional baseball locker room is Rule 21 ( There is no betting on baseball)you see this sign from the lowest rung of the minor leagues to the major leagues. If you choose to violate this rule you will be banned for life. There are no exceptions. Pete Rose violated this rule thus Pete Rose is banned from baseball. No he should not be reinstaed as bad as pro sports has become there still needs to be some shred of integrity left. Mr Rose knew what the consequences of his action would bring if caught. He was caught and now pays for the consequences of his actions.

[R. C. Dean]

I think they should put a bust of Pete Rose in the Hall of Fame, with this inscription under it:

"Pete Rose was a good ball-player, but he broke the rules and consequently is banned for life from baseball and can never be admitted to the Hall of Fame. Baseball is a game of rules, not players, and he thought he was bigger than the rules. He was wrong. Let his example stand as a lesson to everyone who thinks they are too important to be treated like everyone else."

[Tim]

I just want to clear up a question posed by Citizen:

"I understand banning him from the game por vida, but what does that have to do with keeping him out of the Hall of Fame?"

It seems, from the comments, as if none of you here really understand this, so let me explain. The Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown is *not* owned or operated by Major League Baseball. It is an independent entity. They have their own rules regarding what players may be enshrined. For example, a player has to receive greater than 75% of the votes of the members of the BBWAA, and must have played in the major leagues for 10 years. There are myriad other rules, but the critical one for Pete Rose is this: any player permanently ineligible from Major League Baseball may *not* be elected to the Hall of Fame. This rule is maintained by the Hall of Fame, not Major League Baseball. So, all of the people who want Pete to be allowed in the Hall of Fame are lobbying the wrong entity.

Now, one sidenote: this rule was not put into effect by the Hall of Fame until *after* Pete Rose was placed on the permanently ineligible list. So, when Rose signed the agreement with Major League Baseball banning him for life, he did not know that this would prevent him from being in the Hall.

I have no sympathy for Rose, and I think both MLB and the Hall should just ignore him. But, it would be much more defensible to allow him into the Hall than to allow him back into organized baseball.

[marty]

Whats the difference between betting for or against your team? On the days that he didn't bet for his team he was essentially betting against them. Holding back his best players or pitchers so he could use them in the next game he had money on.

[Kurt]

The other issue, which Tim touches on, is it doesn't sound at all certain that 75% of the writers would vote for Rose at this point, even if MLB did declare him eligible. Judging by recent polls, and recent columns by writers who get to vote, Rose's admission seems to have done him much more harm than good.

Which is entirely proper. One of the rules for voting states, "Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played." (emphsis added. It's perfectly proper to vote no for Rose, based on these criteria.

[Kurt]

And just to clarify Marty's post. There's no evidence that Rose actually did any of those things (holding back pitchers on non-bet days etc.). Rose denies doing this, but of course there's no reason to take his word for anything.

MLB needs to be just as concerned with the appearance of corruption as with actual corruption, though. It's the type of thing that would be impossible to prove, so the bright line rule is, don't bet on your team, period.

[Flem Snopes]

schweet! i love this "tired old conservative morality" thing.

the applicable baseball rule says "no betting." it doesn't say "no betting unless you have 4000 hits or a literary agent" or "no betting unless the wagers conform to parameters we can sort of prop up and justify in hindsight." i guess the "neat and clean new PoMo libertarian morality" can be summarized as "whatever you can get away with, bro. (hey lie for 14 years about it if you like, we don't care)."

i'm ok with letting him in the Hall upon his death, in fact i'm really liking that idea. if he worms his way back into the game it will be a travesty.

pete rose tried to smuggle a duffle bag stuffed with $100,000 through customs on trips back to the states from japan. twice. got caught both times. gentlemen, these are crimes. they call it tax evasion. he wasn't held responsible for those either.

there y'go, rose fans. embrace your conquering hero

[marty]

Lets not forget that the act of betting on a baseball game thru a bookie (which Rose was doing) is not only against the laws of baseball but against the law, period.

[ray fosse]

I love the Hall at death proposal. This way he has to live knowing he'll get what he wants, but never be able to enjoy it.

[AJMB]

Back to baseball, though. I would like to see a write in campaign to get the veteran's committee to elect to the Hall of Fame:

Chico Escuella, SS, N.Y. Mets
Baseball been bery, bery good to him.