Sure, But Is It Worse Than the Holocaust, Too?

"This is 10,000 times worse than the worst thing anybody thinks Michael Jackson ever did to a little boy." --Christopher Byron of the New York Post, on the video game Grand Theft Auto: Vice City

[Via The Agitator.]

Comments

[Todd Fletcher]

My two impressionable pre-teen boys love this game, and they're no more monstrous now then they were before.

Now if only there were a way to make it work in reverse.

[Percy Dovetonsils]

Hmmm... I play both GTA games, and damned if I don't now have an uncontrollable desire to wrap my hands around Christopher Byron's throat.

[Ruthless]

Isn't this topic along the lines of the earlier "Why They Hate Us, Part CMXXIV"?

Add it all up, and we have reason for optimism for 2004. Is this a great country or what?

I pledge allegiance...

[Jeffersonian]

Must...kill......must...destroy.......game...tells..me....Powerless to..resist...

[Andy D.]

Back when I was a young boy, I didn't have any violent video games to lead me to violent fantasies... violent fantasies sprang up all on their own. If you give little boys barbie dolls, they're more likely to have a barbie doll war than a barbie doll shopping spree (certainly there are exceptions to this).

I can't imagine violent video games which paralleled many of my own thoughts would have screwed me up much at all. Having sex with Michael Jackson... well... I really don't want to even try and imagine how badly that would have screwed me up.

[Phil]

Ladies and Gentleman, I've been to Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq; and I can say without hyperbole that this is a million times worse than all of them put together.
-- Kent Brockman, ``Kamp Krusty''

The Simpsons . . . is there anything that it can't comment on?

[Warren]

Oh the humanity

[Peter]

Hey -- As long as we're talking about what Michael Jackson does with kids -- such as dangling his own off a balcony -- Has anyone seen the latest from the "Crocodile Hunter"?

[SteveInClearwater]

PETER: Has anyone seen the latest from the "Crocodile Hunter"?

SinC: I'll bite. heh....what about it? I'll presume given the thread so far that Mate sticks a baby inside a croc's mouth?

[Paul]

Balancing it out on the plus side, Bono will now be able to say "This game is fucking terrible!" on television.

[Kevin Carson]

Phil,

Maybe Springfield Hospital can open a Grand Theft Auto wing next to the Three Stooges wing.

[dhex]

the ny post is so much better than the onion sometimes.

[bruce m]

this "journalist" should be fired for stupidity. No video, magazine, movie, or videogame is morally wrong AT ALL, let alone 10,000 times worse than alleged child molestation.

I bet Christopher Byron would rather his children be home playing GTA: Vice City than away at MJ's Neverland Ranch

[Grover N.]

Actually, taxing high income people at higher rates than low income people is just as bad as the holocost.

[Garrett J]

And to think, I was stuck playing games like Super Mario Brothers when I was growing up. Although, to be fair, at least we got to learn about the benifits of devouring "magic mushrooms."

[Larry]

I missed all those violent video games growing up too. Shoot, I didn't even have television until I was well into the process. We just sat around listening to Green Hornet and the Lone Ranger on the radio, perused the latest Blackhawk or Red Ryder comic book, read the latest Lucky Star or Tarzan serial novel, then went outside and shot each other with our toy guns.

Of course, long before we were teenagers our parents had bought us BB guns and .22s and taught us not to shoot THEM at anyone.

[Andy]

The sad thing is that Byron is a relatively good financial journalist. This GTA 3 article is ruined and ruinous to Byron as a thinker in the space of two lines around his silly Michael Jackson comparison which also indicates he'd rather be seen as soft on paedophillia than talk sense about a mere video game.

[Ruthless]

"Actually, taxing high income people at higher rates than low income people is just as bad as the holocost."

Game over! Grover N. has sounded the alarm. Time to come back out of the saloons with them floozies and resume panning for truth, justice and the American Way.

Wait, this is Friday nite. Report for duty Monday morning at dawn.

[Jarod]

Worse than the holocaust? Surely with all the copies that have been sold and all the people that have played the game, more than six million people in the game have been killed. Those poor little polygonal AI-driven world actors! Each with their own hopes, their own dreams, such as: void Tick( float delta ) { FindWayPointInPathNetwork(NEAREST); ChooseNewBehavior(m_currentMood); m_dangerLevel = gameWorld->CheckVicinityForDanger( m_currentPosition ); } - destroyed forever. No more idle animations; no more ragdoll physics; no more random sound cues. Worse than the holocaust? Understatement! Never again!

[martin]

Don't you love the do-gooders spouting off, hehe.

"Besides: By what preposterous reasoning can one argue that once someone turns 17 years of age it magically becomes OK to glorify mass murder?"

By the same reasoning that getting screwed magically becomes OK at age 18 and getting plastered at age 21.

Bad, bad Take-Two. Fedz to the rescue. Please, please protect me!
Jeeeez.....

[dj of raleigh]

Games which pretend evil won't harm most kids,
nor will they do any good, either, thus a waste,
but there is that element that can't handle it,
that will more than entertain notions learned in the games - the Columbine types for example, (They learned their tactics somewhere.)
and the ones that later in life despair enough to self-destruct by choice.
Parents should be responsible, first off,
which assumes that parents can parent
instead of being friends or simply cohabitating.

Also civil cases may one day take root,
when and where a reasonable connection can be shown between reality and fantasy, after some harm is done. Otherwise the parents & kids can feed the crap to their minds and no one can stop them.

Justice in life would be that you kids, ever how you raised them, would be your social security one day.

Have they come up with a game called Holocaust yet? ...or southern plantation...or WWIII...or pollute the planet...or kill the last of the species...or rape and incest on Elm street???
They would differ from Grand Theft Auto only by degree.

Games where evil acts are the focus,
are offensive to me,
and seem not worthy of seeking out.

The parents, the players, do just that, seek them out.
I don't blame the manufacturer more than the user.

But this isn't like cockfighting,
which is banned due to the injury to the bird, plus the gambling on death.

Look at the bright side, it helps other kids, and adults,
to discriminate between the rotten and the refreshing...a tattoo here, a piercing there,
the hair, the clothes, the language, the love of the game...so each knows who they want to hang out with, and don't.

Of course, as with alcohol, tobacco and gambling, there could be special taxes on games that teach bad lessons to youth...such as crime. These games might be a moral vice worthy of taxing. Money talks.

[Ruthless]

Was Sir Walter of Raleigh trying to enlighten us or offer his cloak to ease our path?

Come again, Sir.

[Dan]

Games which pretend evil won't harm most kids,
nor will they do any good, either

They're fun. Fun is good.

Also, there are no documented cases of children being harmed by video games. So it might be more accurate to say "all" or "the overwhelming majority of" instead of "most".

there is that element that can't handle it,
that will more than entertain notions learned in the games - the Columbine types for example

Yes, the Columbine kids played Doom. They also attended church, and studied the Bible, which is filled with countless examples of the unjust being slaughtered by the just. Would it be fair to say "Christianity does no harm to most kids, but it causes some kids, like the Columbine types, to more than entertain notions found in it"? What's your basis for cherry-picking "video games" as a cause of their murder spree -- especially considering that many school shooters do NOT play violent video games?

Have they come up with a game called Holocaust yet? ...or southern plantation...or WWIII...or pollute the planet...or kill the last of the species...or rape and incest on Elm street???

There have been countless WWIII games, and of course many simulation games that allow pollution, extinction, slavery, etc. Also, there have been books wherein the main characters pollute, or cause extinction, or keep slaves. We should, perhaps, look into heavily taxing such books, and suing the writers?

Here's a better suggestion: take your ignorant supertitions and your special taxes on "stuff you don't like" and shove them both up your ass.

[joe]

Bogus Goodwin, Ruthless. The Holocaust analogy was in the original posting, and Grover N used it in the same sense as Walker - as a way of mocking the person who made the comparison.

I say no Goodwin.

[Rebecca]

The games themselves do not cause evil actions - people are responsible for their own decisions.

What a person finds entertaining, he will likely pursue more. St. Augustine (354 - 430 A.D.) attended Roman gladiator games before he converted to Christianity. He wrote later of the experience, that seeing the men fight, seeing the blood flow, led to a thirst to see more fighting, more blood. Perhaps most of the spectators never went out and murdered anyone, but they gained satisfaction from seeing others killed.

The games may be fun, but those who play are learning to kill, for no other reason than for entertainment. Soldiers are trained to kill because they may need the skill one day, for a greater good. What greater good is served by violent video games?

[Dan]

The games may be fun, but those who play are learning to kill, for no other reason than for entertainment.

You appear to be unable to distinguish reality from fantasy. I suggest you stay away from video games, books, movies, and music. In fact, it would probably be best if you checked yourself into a mental institution.

You see, the little "men" inside the computer aren't actually people. You aren't actually killing them. I know this. I'd guess that the overwhelming majority of people who play violent video games, adults and children alike, know this as well. That's why we don't mind "killing" them, see? Just like how we could play "Missile Command" without mourning the inevitable nuclear annihilation of countless cities in THAT game.

The games don't "teach" people to kill -- as humans, we're born with the urge to kill things, and have no need to learn it. Nor do the games serve as training for HOW to kill, since I've yet to find a gun that lets you use a mouse or a gamepad to aim and fire it.

People who rant and rave that simulated game violence = real violence don't realize what a horrifying thing they're doing. They're teaching kids that there is no line between fantasy and reality; that pretending to kill something is the same as actually killing it. That's a nice way to create a bunch of neurotic kids who don't know how to deal with their feelings.

Soldiers are trained to kill because they may need the skill one day, for a greater good. What greater good is served by violent video games?

At last, an easy question with a simple and obvious answer: they're fun, and they provide a non-violent outlet for aggression.

Yes, I said "non-violent". The only violent thing I ever did while playing Vice City, or because of Vice City, was to throw the controller to the floor in disgust when I failed the Hillary street-racing mission for the Nth time in a row.

[poetry critic]

dj's comments don't make much sense, but they're pretty amusing in verse form

[Jean Bart]

Rebecca,

Soldiers are also trained to kill for many evil or awful reasons.

Dan,

It takes a great deal of effort to train people to kill each other people in cold blood (which is what warfare is about); people do not kill "naturally." Indeed, if humans were so prone to killing other humans, homicide would be far more common than it is. Of course this is also why the notion that violent video games train people to kill uis ludicrous.

One of the most accurate films to deal with the level of weapons use in war was "Saving Private Ryan." There is other serious historical error in the film, you will notice that very few soldiers in the film actually use their weapons. Since the creation of large, citizen armies during the French revolutionary and Napoleonic wars, the unwillingness to use a weapon in combat has plagued armies.

[dhex]

"Destruction is not, in itself, constructive.
Where is the good in it?"

this man needs 30ccs of Einsturzende Neubauten immediately!

[Matt XIV]

"Grown ups, I'm now told, play these games too.
I never see adults standing there, playing for free,
in the electronics dept. of Wal-mart.

It's middle school age kids, most all boys.
Adults playing doesn't ring true, not for most,
not the majority of adults, (did I phrase it right)
for these games are all pretend,
like playing with a new kind of toy action figure."

There are several reasons why adults who play video games would never be caught hanging around the kiosk at Walmart ranging from the fact that if they want a game, they can just buy it and take it home, to that most modern games carry data over from one session to the next, so playing at a public console is pointless for actually progressing through them, to that by social convention that's where kids hang around and an adult would be very out of place.

Males in the 18 to 24 age bracket are a very important target for game designers - it would be a safe guess that over 50% of that demographic owns at least one gaming system. The fraction of gamers tends to thin out more after that point because marriage, career, and children begin to occupy the idle time previously spent on video games.

The argument that because video games are "pretend" they don't appeal to adults is absurd. So much of what people of all age groups consume is "pretend" or to use a more respected term "fictional." Like most criticisms of video games lobbed by non-gamers, it becomes self-evidently absurd when examined without a bias towards video games as compared with other media. Adults watch fictional TV shows and movies and read fictional novels - do you really think fiction is that offputing to those over 18?

Face it dj, you are more or less just generalizing your personal disinterest in video games, essentially arguing "I don't like it, so why would anybody else?" By doing this, you rationalize approaching video games differently than other media for entertainment and advance standards for them that would be considered absurd if applied to other formats.

[John]

One other thing to consider. Mr. Byron's comment that this game is worse than what Michael Jackson did to kids is not necessarily a statement of his preference for sexual molestation over violent entertainment. The last time I checked, MJ had not been convicted of child molestation, and while I am unfamiliar with Mr. Byron's opinion on Jackson's guilt, it is quite possible that he meant the comment to be taken two ways--as an insult to the game and as a statement of skepticism about the claims levied against Jackson. Just a thought.

[dj of raleigh]

Thank you Matt 14 for the great reply:
> The argument that because video games are "pretend" they don't appeal to adults is absurd....Males in the 18 to 24 age bracket are a very important target for game designers ... The fraction of gamers tends to thin out more after that point because... Face it dj, you are more or less just generalizing your personal disinterest in video games, essentially arguing "I don't like it, so why would anybody else?"

[Matt XIV]

"Video games lack the dialogue, humor, realism and personal dynamics of even a weak TV show, much less the thought provoking mystery, romance, despair etc. of a good book. Video isn't fiction, isn't literature, isn't a movie. It is a game, a game with puzzle value, challenge, chance, scores, excitment."

This is where you get on the wrong track because of a lack of expose to many video games. I'll offer you one game that while a typical example of its genre has plently of dialogue and personal dynamics - Final Fantasy X. If you're curious about it, the game's script can be found at http://dw.com.com/redir?asid=197344&astid=8&siteid=19&edid=107&destCat=17738&destURL=http%3A%2F%2Fdb.gamefaqs.com%2Fconsole%2Fps2%2Ffile%2Ffinal_fantasy_x_script.txt

[Phil]

Here is a link to some quick facts from the Entertainment Software Association, dj. It's helpful to have some idea about this kind of thing before opining.

-- 41% of computer (PC-based) gamers are age 35+
-- 22% of console gamers are 35+, but
-- 40% of console gamers are between 18 and 35
-- The average age of a video game player is 29

Yes, adults play them. Lots and lots of adults.

[Franklin Harris]

I am always amused when employees of the Newscorp empire feign moral outrage.

[dj of raleigh]

> Come again, sir Here's a better suggestion:
take your ignorant supertitions
and your special taxes on "stuff you don't like"
and shove them both up your ass.

[GoonFood]

I say we legislate ourselves back to the stone age! That way everything we do will be vital for survival, since we will only have time to gather and prepare food. Well, and maybe carve a few idols... SAVE ME JEBUS!

[Matt XIV]

"What greater good is served by violent video games?"

Like violent movies, violent books, and violent music, violent video games can be a vector for the expression of ideas - that alone entitles them the same level of protection as other media formats. Anyone who has actually played GTA 3 could point out the dark satire that permeates the game. Combine this with the innovative non-linear gameplay and responsive environment, and you have something that can make a legitimate claim to serious cultural significance.

Also, video games aren't the only media in which the audience is encouraged to identify with violent criminals. Why should Pulp Fiction or A Clockwork Orange enjoy greater protection just because they utilize more traditional formats?

[Brendan Perez]

"What greater good is served by violent video games?"

This is typical of prohibitionists-shift the burden of explanation away from those who should be shouldering it.

Rather than make video game fans explain this, he should explain why the greater good has to be served and how exactly video games serve the greater "bad" or "evil" more than any other aspect of society.

Given that our country holds young people as untable as adults for their actions, we have NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to treat them as anything but adults when it comes to their choice of etertainment.

[Rebecca]

The impression seems to be that I have never played video games or that I support violent movies, but not games. No, no, no. I grew up playing video games, and they're fun. "Fun" in and of itself is necessary, and relaxing, and just plain fun. 🙂 But I was raised to understand that, while not every decision has some deep meaning behind it, that I should evaluate how I spend my time, my money, my energies, and what effect these leisure activities have on me.

I try to avoid entertainment that shows one character in a sympathetic light merely because he/she is played by a big-name actor, or perhaps because the story is told from his/her point of view. Movies like "Pulp Fiction" or "Kill Bill" and the like, I do not watch, because I firmly believe that what I let in, has an effect on what comes out. I love the original Star Wars trilogy, for example, because it demonstrates the difference between just and unjust violence, and violence is part of the story because it is a war. But something like "Ransom" or "Kill Bill" where it appears the story is violence for revenge, or just because, or just to make a cool explosion - no. A lot of people don't understand that, hence I'm called "psychologically disturbed" - an easy way to dismiss a pov one doesn't understand and doesn't want to take the time to understand.

It's not like I have some random notion that "violence is bad and I must prohibit everyone from doing it". An inviolable part of human nature is that each person has the right to choose how he will think, how he will behave. Coupled with that is the certainty that decisions have consequences, either good or ill, depending on the decision made. This responsibility for foreseeing outcomes and making wise personal decisions extends to more than just major life decisions like marriage or moving or college or career: it applies to how one treats family members, friends, strangers; how one spends one's time, money, and energies; and also how one conducts oneself in business, public, or private life. Some things may seem unrelated - like whether one plays a certain video game and how that affects one's behavior towards other people.

I think that an intelligent person can clearly distinguish between fact and fantasy. But how many people actually think of the difference, recognize it, act on it? I do, but I know of many, many people who don't. It's easy for many of you posters here to look with scorn on my "provincial" notions, just as you likely would the "stupidity" of the random person who imbues video games with more reality than they have. There are young people who have played video games or watched movies (like the Matrix, in one instance) so many times, it has achieved mythical stature for them, and they love their "alternate reality" so much, they want to emulate it. And then they murder classmates or their parents (yes, this is true), because they want to practice what they have learned.

My modus operendi is not to impose my beliefs on others, but to persuade by reason and sense. If you haven't guessed that by now, well, I'll just have to keep at it longer. 😉

[joe]

I didn't see Rebecca recommend the prohibition of anything. I saw her voice an opinion about a certain piece of media, and speculate on the relationship between media and real life.

"This is typical of prohibitionists-shift the burden of explanation away from those who should be shouldering it." Oddly enough, it seems to be equally typical of anti-prohibitionists, who seem to feel the need to argue for the societal benefits, or at least to minimize the suggested societal harm, of a thing in order to argue against its prohibition.

Political maturity requires recognizing that your preferred outcomes have costs as well as benefits. Take search warrants. If the police were allowed to go into every home they had a hunch about, they'd find dead bodies, kidnap victims, dangerous weapons, stolen property, etc etc etc. The requirement that they get a search warrant prevents the police from doing their job as well as they could, and the cost is paid in money and in human lives. But I wouldn't have it any other way.

[dj of raleigh]

> Just don't get me into video games, please. Don't argue that well.

I am going to try a game out somewhere,
one where I can be the hero, though,
not the villian.

[Will Spencer]

I've done my part in protecting free speech in America -- I bought GTA3.

I feel good now. 🙂

[blah]

One thing that marks me as being quite funny--GTA: Vice City was meant very much as a homage to Scarface. Take a glance at the storyline and you'll know that much. But what do we see? People praising Scarface as a great work of art, only to have those same people turn around and blast Vice City.

Why? Simple. It's because these people are fucking retards, essentially. People will regard movies and books as being legit artforms for adults, but they still refuse to grant games the same recognition (and never mind that those of us who cut our teeth on Super Mario Bros. back in 1985 have aged 19 years and still love the industry). You see the same thing with animation. It's not enough to have games like Xenogears and Metal Gear Solid (and GTA, which while being a poorly-programmed pile, still deserves to exist if the creators see fit to release it) and animated programs such as Neon Genesis Evangelion and Cowboy Bebop (and again, fluff like La Blue Girl that's very obviously crap but still has a right to exist). Thanks to baseless stereotypes and a good deal of people knowingly sticking their heads up their own asses, it'll probably be another 20 years before such mediums are recognized as artforms. The real fight comes to keeping the walking-dead of the previous generations from trying to destroy all the newfangled comdungerry before they take their dirt naps.

[AJMB]

Noring game, stupid reproter, NEXT . . .

[AJMB]

That should read: BORING game, stupid reporter, bad speller, NEXT . . .

[Citizen]

John said: Mr. Byron's comment that this game is worse than what Michael Jackson did to kids is not necessarily a statement of his preference for sexual molestation over violent entertainment.

Read the article, actually this is exactly what he is saying. Here's the money quote: "People, this is insane. This is 10,000 times worse than the worst thing anybody thinks Michael Jackson ever did to a little boy."

So yeah, worse than what people think he did.

What critics like this fail to mention is that even in GTA, actions have consequences. You CANNOT do whatever you want without having cops, feds, black helicopters, etc, chase you down and kill or arrest you.

Lastly, I want to know where the Cubans are. If the Haitians are ubset, shouldn't the Cubans be backing the game? They did when they told me to "Kill the Haitians." "Hey man, all my friends have huge cajones! You the main man, man!"

[dhex]

you know, it is rather odd that at least one cuban group hasn't expressed something about this game.

i guess so long as there's no pro-castro message no one in that crowd will get upset. 🙂

[Mo]

dj,
Try the LOTR games, you are a hero and the storyline is so good that they wrote a book around it. Sure, it's simply Golden Axe on 'roids, but they're fun games.

[R. C. Dean]

What greater good is served by violent video games?

My pleasure. Next!

[Rich]

Wow, that is a lot of BS from dj. Video games aren't fiction? You mean that was a true story about Princess Peach being kidnapped by Bowser. I guess I need a reality realignment.

Bottom line: Video games are media. Media comes in many different flavors. I never hear anyone argue that all Movies are for children or all books are for adults. Likewise with Video Games there are specific works available and appropriate for all levels of maturity. I don't let my children play any GTA games but I certainly enjoy them. Is that a problem for you spanked-up crazies?

And dj, there are certainly video games with narratives far more engaging, intelligent and emotionally moving as television or film. GTA:VC itself is a good example, as is ICO or, my most recent purchase, Prince of Persia.

Also, there are plenty of games about good guys but these suffer from some of the same alledged faults as the games about bad guys. I doubt anyone would seriously argue that shooting Nazi vampires is morally ambiguous. And, thanks to much exposure to video games, if I am to meet a Nazi vampire I now have the training to off him (or her) in relatively short order provided I have a virtual gun and a controller at my disposal. In video games where you shoot things, it doesn't matter who you are shooting at your still being trained to shoot well, with a mouse or joystick of course, and your still being trained in tactics, of course these are the same tactics you learn in a squirt gun fight too. Summary: Video games don't create killers.

There are games where one plays the good guys, in addition to that just mentioned - the Medal of Honor series comes to mind and there are games where the action is morally ambiguous - shooting aliens or slaying dragons. But these are still action oriented titles and aren't really meant for education on how to fight off nazis, aliens or vampires.

The biggest problem with learning things in video games or doing good things in video games is that it tends to make for some pretty boring game play. If you want to make a good game about cops, for instance, you have to bring in a bit of vigilantism because no one wants to play a game where you write tickets and fill out paperwork.

That said, I think using video games for education is a laudable goal. But, like using other fictional media for education, it is very very difficult to make entertaining.

DJ - your comment on MJ's transgressions was just stupid. Quite obviously, the simple act of playing a video game hurts no one (except perhaps the player though I disagree) while molesting little boys certainly does harm someone.

Finally, I don't know what football game you saw but in mine I have nearly complete control over the ball. I control the snap, the actions of the QB while the ball is in his possession, who to throw it to, once thrown, I control the receiver (I can choose to control the receiver prior to the reception - while the ball is in the air - or I can allow the game AI to control the receiver until after the reception), I control where the receiver runs. Of course, I can't have the receiver throw the ball into the stands or do something else equally unpredictable but I do have control over a great deal of the play. I can also do great things like call audibles, cheat my recievers to uncover parts of the field, put men in motion, change receiver routes on the fly and so on. Short story: you get an awful lot of control.

One more comment, I would argue that to the extent that adults aren't into video games it is because of a lack of exposure and education. I grew up with video games and I still play them despite being married, with kids and a career and house payment. The main demographic right now is twenty somethings and it will probably stay there for the most part but twenty-years from now I don't think anyone will have any doubts about adults appetites for video games.

[dj of raleigh]

> Wow, that is a lot of BS from dj. Video games aren't fiction? You mean that was a true story about Princess Peach being kidnapped by Bowser. I guess I need a reality realignment.

[grown-up]

"The games may be fun, but those who play are learning to kill, for no other reason than for entertainment."

Hmmm. I think the big lesson most games teach is how to die. A game in which the player was an efficient killing machine would not need the "save" feature.

And what's wrong with entertainment? I had dinner with friends last night - for no other reason than entertainment.

[dhex]

the most libertarian game produced recently:

deus ex. plenty of moral choices to make, including 3 different ending scenarios.

ironically, GTA:VC is very much a villian game - you do, after all, play a drug dealing thug. too bad the execution isn't as good as the environment.

one day it is my hope that games will be the well-produced works of interactive fiction/suspension of disbelief modules they can be (system shock, ultima IV, and so on) but so often miss out on being.

[Rich]

Someone needs to look fiction up in a dictionary. Here is a clue from Webster "something invented by the imagination or feigned; specifically : an invented story". What is it not allowed to be fiction because I interact with it in some way? If I just skip all the playing and only watch the cutscenes is it fiction then? What if I only read the script? A video game is a fiction, an invented story, a imagined circumstance with which we interact.

The interaction with the fiction doesn't negate that it is a fiction. That is what makes it such an attractive art form. If I daydream and create a private adventure for myself, is that not a fiction? My own private fiction. All a video game does is create a world and a story with which I can interact to an unprecedented degree.

Think of it this way. When I was younger we had choose your own adventure books. You read an introduction, it gave you a few choices and the story could turn out several ways. Is that not a work of fiction because the audience has some way of interacting and directing the story? Here's another example. Buy a DVD which comes with multiple endings or extra scenes. Now you can watch the movie, the fiction, with those scenes or without, at your own discretion. Is this not now fiction because you have some control?

You argument makes no sense. You really need to educate yourself. Thanks.

[Mohaiemen Naeem]

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DATE: 02/28/2004 07:47:18
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