Guns in Ohio

Last night the Ohio General Assembly approved a bill that would allow law-abiding citizens 21 and older to carry concealed firearms after undergoing a background check and completing 12 hours of training. That policy would replace a 144-year-old ban on concealed carry that the state Supreme Court upheld in September. Ohio would join three dozen other states with liberal concealed carry policies.

The bill, which has been endorsed by Ohioans for Concealed Carry despite some qualms about the details, now goes to Gov. Bob Taft, who says he'll veto it. The bill passed by big enough margins in both houses to override a veto, if supporters stick to their guns.

[Thanks to John Lott for the tip.]

Comments

[R. C. Dean]

We are at a very similar place here in Wisconsin - concealed carry law passed (by Republican houses) with veto-proof majorities, vetoed by (Democrat) Governor Doyle.

The bill is now stalled, and has not been brought back up for override. Some of the Dems who voted for it are apparently planning to vote against it this time so the veto will be sustained, with the belief that having voted for it once they are immunized against electoral payback for (now) helping to kill it. Cynical fuckers. I will be doing what I can to make them pay.

I hope it plays out better in Ohio.

[Mark S.]

"Some of the Dems who voted for it are apparently planning to vote against it this time so the veto will be sustained, with the belief that having voted for it once they are immunized against electoral payback for (now) helping to kill it."

Thisis not to say that they won't do it, but the question I have is what possible benefit would these Dems have in upholding the veto of a bill they passed. Don't they think for an instant that NO ONE is going to bring this fact up around election time?

[Mark S.]

Also, Wisconsin's contitution is quite specfic on the matter of gun ownership. Hell, it's more specific than the Second Amendment!

"The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation or any other lawful purpose."

Although the issue of CCW has been brewing for a long time here. It was brought to the forefront by a State Supreme Court case of a Milwaukee man who was arrested for carrying a "concealed weapon" in his own shop. Although the judge found him quilty, he only fined him $1.00. The man appealled and the high court ruled on his behalf citing the Amendment and impling that Madison try to rectify the state's carry laws with the state's constitution.

So far, nothing.

[GoonFood]

It isn't at all suprising. For at least a hundred years now most of those in office have decided to ignore the fact that we have a 2nd amendment for the whole nation as well as (in many cases) a state constitution that upholds the right to keep and bear arms for reasons other than hunting furry woodland creatures. It is hard for me to fathom that it has taken our society this long to finally start waking up to the facts that those in power are trying to disarm us and herd us into pens. Hopefully somewhere down the line we will pick up the stubborn-headed revolutionary spirit that had our founders write these amendments and constitutions in the first place.

[Kevin Carson]

They should cut out that "law-abiding" crap. This country was founded by law-breakers.

[Neb Okla]

Lott cites our "144-year-old ban on concealed carry" hear in Ohio.

The problem with the current system is that it requires you to come up with an "affirmative defense" in the event that you are caught with a concealed weapon.

So essentially it's illegal to carry, but if you do carry and get arrested for carrying, as long as you can prove to your Ohio peer jurors that you were "prudent in going armed", then you're off the hook (minus legal expenses).

Of course, if on the day of your trial, you leave the courthouse and carry concealed again - under the same circumstances as before, you have to go through another trial - and may be found guilty the second time around.

Somehow the Ohio Supreme Court upheld this "guilty until proven innocent" nonsense.

Does anyone know of other activities where an "affirmative defense" is required?

Essentially, the legality of concealed carry depends on wether you get a sympathetic judge and jury.

It's a system where the Judge says "You did a very bad thing, thanks for saving some lives, now don't do it again... for public safety."

[rst]

Does anyone know of other activities where an "affirmative defense" is required?

When you're accused of rape.

[Neb Okla]

I was listening to an interesting audio report on the subject.

Eric Fingerhut (D) had a lot of whiney hadwringing and likes to portray CCW permit holders as Mr. Magoo's. He predicts higher rates of gun incidents. He also suddenly cares about armed convenience store owners and suggests that the best way to protect small businessmen in the event of a robbery is to take their guns away.

...he should share this opinion with the relatives of the unarmed fast-food restauraunt employees who were killed in drive-thru window robberies in Columbus earlier this year. Yep, that's right - Fingerhut apparently thinks that the Wendy's manager was reaching for a 12-guage when he was shot.

Michael DeBowes (D) argues that this sends a bad message to urban youth who, as he seems to suggest, are already carrying guns. It is already illegal in Ohio for anyone under the age of 21 to posess a pistol - and they ceartainly wouldn't be approved for a CCW permit.

I think it sends an excellent message to young armed thugs...

[Mark S.]

Oh and just a reminder to all those Conservatives out there who think that only Democrats are for gun control: Bob Taft is a Republican.

[Jon H]

Was that John Lott?

Or Mary Rosh?

Or "Washingtonian"?

Or "an academic" from Swarthmore?

[Don Doig]

Ohio Concealed handgun defendant depends upon protections afforded by jurors
By Don Doig

Many laws continue to be on the books which are out of date, discriminatory,
unfair or unconstitutional. Despite recent legislative action to pass a
concealed carry law, it has not yet been signed by the Governor of Ohio. As
a result, Ohio still has no provisions for concealed carry permits, nor
reciprocity with other states. There is a remedy which is readily available
to all Ohioans, as well as all Americans, . For centuries, the essence of
trial by jury has been that jurors have the power to vote their conscience
in pursuit of justice. If a juror believes that a law is unjust, or is being
unfairly applied, that juror may vote "not guilty" regardless of the
evidence.

Juries were never intended to be a rubber stamp for the charges brought by
the government, but rather a group of independent citizens, coming together
to exercise their independent judgment and conscience. They should ask
whether justice is being served if they blindly follow the judge's
instructions on the law and enforce a bad law. Our second president, John
Adams, said this of jurors: "It is not only his right, but his duty ... to
find the verdict according to his own best understanding, judgment, and
conscience, though in direct opposition to the direction of the court."

If our courtrooms functioned under rules of absolute honesty, the judges
would tell jurors of their power and responsibility at the beginning of
every jury trial. Or , alternatively, judges would allow attorneys to
truthfully tell the jury that their judgment is their own, that no one can
tell them how to vote, and to inform juries that they have the inherent
power to consider the merits, validity and applicability of the law,
including the sentencing laws. It is a travesty for our court system to
allow prosecutors to weed out prospective jurors who indicate they might be
inclined to vote according to conscience.

It has come to my attention that Jeffrey Jordan has recently been arrested near Mansfield while driving across Ohio, on the way home from visiting relatives, for
having concealed handguns on his person. He had a concealed carry permit
from his home state, New Hampshire. He is guilty of nothing more than
seeking to protect himself from assailants he might encounter on this or any
trip. Given that there is a highway sniper which the Ohio authorities have
yet to apprehend, a reasonable person would be prepared to undertake self
defense. Let's hope the prosecutor has sense enough to dismiss charges.
Otherwise, the correct application of the law will to be up to the jurors.

Don Doig, Co-founder,
Fully Informed Jury Association
http://www.fija.org

[kingarthur1940]

I've been an instructor in Kentucky's concealed carry program for seven years. I was born and raised in Ohio and can say from experience that concealed carry will be good for Ohio. It's about time. You will see your crime rate go down, especially violent crimes against women. And there will be no shootouts in the street. All those other states have had concealed carry for years, and there have been no problems with the law-abiding persons who get a license to carry. In Kentucky, the profile of the average license-holder is a white male in his fifties who has military experience. These are the most law-abiding and patriotic persons in the country. Having them carrying guns will only serve to lower the crime rate and make our country a better place to live in.

[kingarthur1940]

I've been an instructor in Kentucky's concealed carry program for seven years. I was born and raised in Ohio and can say from experience that concealed carry will be good for Ohio. It's about time. You will see your crime rate go down, especially violent crimes against women. And there will be no shootouts in the street. All those other states have had concealed carry for years, and there have been no problems with the law-abiding persons who get a license to carry. In Kentucky, the profile of the average license-holder is a white male in his fifties who has military experience. These are the most law-abiding and patriotic persons in the country. Having them carrying guns will only serve to lower the crime rate and make our country a better place to live in.

[kingarthur1940]

I've been an instructor in Kentucky's concealed carry program for seven years. I was born and raised in Ohio and can say from experience that concealed carry will be good for Ohio. It's about time. You will see your crime rate go down, especially violent crimes against women. And there will be no shootouts in the street. All those other states have had concealed carry for years, and there have been no problems with the law-abiding persons who get a license to carry. In Kentucky, the profile of the average license-holder is a white male in his fifties who has military experience. These are the most law-abiding and patriotic persons in the country. Having them carrying guns will only serve to lower the crime rate and make our country a better place to live in.