Luck and Justice
In a piece in Sunday's Boston Globe, author Matthew Miller interviews William J. Bennett and Milton Friedman on the role of luck in shaping our life prospects. Both acknowledge that whether we fare well or badly, are rich or poor, has an enormous amount to do with factors beyond our control—genetics, parenting, education. Friedman goes further, recognizing that the notion of (any metaphysically deep version of) "free will" can't be justified. Miller makes a quick leap to what are, to him, the obvious redistributive implications of this view:
Bill Bennett, I thought, meet John Rawls -- the late liberal philosopher who famously argued that public institutions should be designed to ameliorate the burdens of bad luck.
Matt Miller, meet Robert Nozick, who gave a reply to that line of argument that works as well today as it did 30 years ago. Rawls and Miller both assume a tight link between the life outcomes we're entitled to and a fairly robust notion of desert. But, as Nozick observes, this requires a defense. In his seminal Anarchy, State, and Utopia, he wrote:
It needn't be that the foundations underlying desert are themselves deserved, all the way down….Whether or not people's natural assets are arbitrary from a moral point of view they are entitled to them, and to what flows from them.
Nozick's memorable intuition pump invoked bodily organs. Nobody, he observes, can have done anything to deserve being born with two working eyes. It does not follow that we may forcibly remove one eye from a sighted person for transplant to a blind one. Entitlement does not (uncontroversially) require deep desert. Friedman's denial of free will, far from undermining this point, actually serves as a reductio. If, contra Nozick, we require desert to go "all the way down," then nobody can ultimately deserve or be responsible for anything, since our chocies and character are all ultimately the product of factors over which we had no control. In the everyday sense, we all make choices… but there is no infinite regress of choices. At some level, the choices are made by persons we did not first choose to be. That doesn't mean nobody deserves anything; it means that we have to remember that the "persons" morality enjoins us to respect are not free-floating Kantian egos, but "embedded" creatures (to borrow some communitarian jargon), with particular histories and capacities that are constitutive of them. Shake off the bad metaphysics and it becomes clear that "luck" is not a form of injustice requiring correction: it's one of the background conditions that gives rise to the sorts of beings who can be the subjects of a theory of justice in the first place.
Addendum: Will Wilkinson comments as well, observing that if "luck" is incompatible with desert (or at least entitlement), the argument cuts as heavily against the democratic process as the market process.
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But this should make people reconsider some of the pompous "I hauled myself up by my bootstraps" BS that's constantly spewed as an excuse for social tightfistedness.
I was wondering if you were going to link to this. Read the whole article; Friedman explicitly denounces one of his earlier works, one that (I believe) is pretty foundational to libertarian thought.
And Julian points out that being aware of the role of luck doesn't prove anything. True, but it was never supposed to. What is does is disprove the notion that poverty is the just deserts of the impoverished, resulting from their own failings.
Joe,
I think the point is that 'failings' is a loaded term, and the dirty little metaphysical secret is that luck IS merit. If you count genes in luck, for example, a person predisposed to violence at home may argue that it is not his failing, it is genes. We still lock him up.
The 'failings' of people who are lazy may lead to unemployment, but the fact that they had a predisposition to laziness doesn't excuse them, or grant them a right to expropriate wealth from those who aren't lazy.
Are there reasons other than laziness that someone can be poor? Sure. That is what Friedman said here. He renounced a former study that sought to demonstrate that luck was not such a major factor. The reason he renounced it is because he has since realized that you can call the whole shooting match luck if you want to because free will is hard to defend.
Forgive us for not reading the whole book ourselves, but I don't think you're quoting enough to be convincing. All you've posted is Nozick's claim that people are "from a moral point of view" entitled to their assets, whether or not they are arbitrary. Well, thanks Noz -- problem solved!
"...but the fact that they had a predisposition to laziness doesn't excuse them, or grant them a right to expropriate wealth from those who aren't lazy."
'zactly, Jason. I am by nature grossly lazy. When I have my druthers I'll do little more than watch tv or read a book -- just ask my wife! However, I recognize the fact that I am a lazy mofo and choose not to behave that way at work. It's that simple.
My sisters in law (all 3 of 'em) are happier to sit on their enormous asses and collect welfare, section 8 housing, etc, all the while complaining that life is treating them unfairly. "Why not get a job?", I frequently ask. Their response is that it's not worth the effort.
Bah. A pox on the lot of 'em
c:
Julian was taking a spcific chunck out of a very large and integrated argument. To get the full force of the argument, you would probably need to read "Anarchy, State, and Utopia".
I personally think everyone should read it anyway.
C-
"from a moral point of view" modifies "arbitrary," not "entitled." Anyway, you can probably find an elaboration on Google, or, for that matter, see how the demand for "deep" desert collapses into incoherence if you think about it for a minute.
That is 'chunk'. Sigh.
Jason, you write as if the personal qualities we're born with are the only expression of luck. Frankly, socio-economic status of one's parents, the economic status of your neighborhood/city/region, the quality of the schools you go to, etc are also luck based, and there is obviously no justification for holding someone responsible for those things. Nor for having a parent die at an inoportune time.
I agree with Jason's comment that luck and merit are linked in the sense that Arnold Schwarzenegger was "lucky" to have a strong body, and Milton Friedman was "lucky" to have a strong mind, but there is also another side. Mozart might not have been so famous if his father did not recognize his genius so early (Handel's parents never recognized his, and might not have had a musical career if not for intercession by the Duke of Weissenfels when he was 7) and hadn't given him such good contacts in the music world (Mozart's father was a famous musician, and literally "wrote the book" on violin instruction at the time). There is certainly the "luck of the draw," by which we are all given some sort of ability, and there is the luck of life itself, during which those abilities seek outlet.
I agree with Friedman that there is no free will, (sorry, I really do think we're just glorified robots), and it's best for every human to be given a chance to find their place in life. I also disagree with Bennett that adults are still "plastic," or at least I think we are decreasingly plastic with each moment that passes since birth. For these two reasons, I believe pre-school and elementary education are absolutely crucial for a child's future well-being, for their natural propensities to be discovered, and constructive habits inculcated. By the time we've gotten to college, it's too late. The debate over college admissions are misplaced and irrelevant. We should be concentrated on earlier times in childhood development.
Fair enough, I was misreading it, but I'm still not exactly convinced. If there's anything concise in there that actually argues against the connection between the entitlements of life's outcome and a robust notion of desert, I'd love to see it. If he cuts strait to an analogy invoking images of forcibly removing somebody's eyeballs, I'm going to go right ahead and assume the argument's got no juice.
"What is does is disprove the notion that poverty is the just deserts of the impoverished, resulting from their own failings."
You're overstating the case, Joe. Since "luck" is a factor (but does not subsume all factors) we cannot assume that EVERY improverished person's status is just. But we can assume that SOME improverished folks are getting exactly what the deserve. Your point, I presume, is that since some of the impoverished people are simply "unlucky," we cannot justly ignore their plight. I agree. But any solution that redistributes income to all impoverished people (even those who deserve to be poor) is equally unjust. You may reply that we should disregard justice in the name of charity - but that's a seperate argument.
The mere fact that luck is involved does not validate the idea of forced redistribution of wealth (to use one example).
Luck is what it is, the statistical probability that some event will or won't happen to someone at any given time. There is NO mechanism by which we can ameliorate the effects of luck in any significant sense. The most that will happen is that the misfortune may be moved around a bit, but it certainly won't be going away.
Free will isn't some mystical quality, it is merely the ability to choose from a set of options. Failing to choose because you don't like the options is still a choice (and will usually subject you to the worst of them).
We don't help the unlucky by letting them wallow in their situation by supporting their *right* to be unlucky, we help them by giving them opportunity and options (even financial help in support of opportunity is reasonably okay, but the government does the worst job at that).
Being unlucky does NOT entitle you to anything. Feeling entitled is in direct opposition to being able to take advantage of options and opportunities.
A favorite quote expresses this pretty well (I know not who to attribute it):
"Many people miss the knock of opportunity, because it is often disguised as hard work".
This isn't a conversation about mathematic probabilities. Good luck, in this conversation, means being born smart, good looking, gifted, w/ good parents, wealthy, etc. These attrbutes are not earned (or "deserved") by the infant to whom they adhere. If you have something of rare value, and you did not earn that thing, you are "lucky" - dig? Bad luck means being born ugly, stupid, poor, addicted to cocaine, blind, abandoned in a dumpster, etc. These shortcomings are not the afflicted infant's fault. If you are at a tremendous disadvantage from birth - you are unlucky.
Is it fair for some to start life w/ such advantages? No. It is clearly unfair. You might respond: "life isn't fair." Ok. I can respect that - provided that the principle is applied universally and consistently - and provided that we abandon the general fallacy that successful people have "earned" their successes in a fair contest.
this comments section is bringing back bad memories of philosophy 101 i had a few years back....
It would take a very good long while to explain why the notion of "luck" and determinism are, at best, incomplete predictors and, at worst, nonsensical, so I'm not going to do it here...
However, I will provide one clue: temporality is the defining characteristic of human existence.
The fact that someone is born into an affluent (or not affluent) family is no less a matter of mathematical probability than if they had won the lottery.
Does a person who wins a lottery 'deserve' it (or earn it)?
By what justification can one make the assertion that because they are favored by circumstance, that one of the fortunate deserves to be castigated and stripped of the fruits of their happenstance merely to make up for some perceived wrong visited upon the less fortunate?
I've seen (and I know all here have) people born into poverty and hardship work their way to riches, and people born into affluence piss it away into miserable failure.
Luck is blind. Some will be favored, some will not. No amount of social engineering will change that fact. Some of each group will defy the odds and change their circumstances for the better (or worse).
I don't believe that little Johnny silverspoon earned what he has. I also don't believe that we have the right to rob him merely to assuage our feelings of jealousy in the name of 'fairness'.
I don't see the influence of luck on individual outcomes as justification for the redistribution of wealth through government run social welfare systems.
There is an element of chance in just about everything. But not everything is beyond one's control. While nobody has a choice in incurring hospital expenses or getting laid-off, they do have the choices of buying medical insurance or "saving for a rainy day".
Nobody can choose to be born to rich parents, but parents without the means to support children can choose not to have any, or choose to work more to provide for them.
Nobody gets to choose what the job market will be like, but they have the choice of what education they pursue and what skills they develop thereby improving their employability.
The harder you work, the luckier you get.
I think some of the comments in the thread are relying on a distinction that won't fly. Being the kind of person who'll work hard or strive to get an education is ALSO a matter of luck, since whether you turn out to be that kind of person is also a function of genes and environmental factors beyond the person's control. The argument to stress isn't that "hard work" is more important than "luck" (they're not really separable issues); it's that /everything/ is luck, and so there's no point making a distinction between what's "really deserved" and what isn't.
Julian,
Everything isn't luck. At some level *choice* really does enter into the picture.
Luck defines the starting conditions. What you do with those starting conditions is a matter of choice. Just like poker, you can be dealt a good hand or a bad hand, but a good player can win with either, and a bad player can lose with either.
To argue that *everything* is luck is just another stab at nihilism. It might even be correct, but it's an empty choice.
No matter what you get from life (good luck or bad luck), you always have the option of either doing something with it, or doing nothing but live with it. Even that is a choice, no matter what abilities you were born with (or without).
If you are genetically or environmentally unable to make a choice (a highly unlikely scenario), NOTHING that anyone else can do will help you. At best, it will be nothing more than the socialogical version of life support.
Additionally, to address some of what the article alludes to, we really only have two ways to interpret our lives. Either choice matters, we have free will (or at least a meaningful analogue), and as a result, we have some control over what we do with our lives, or we are nothing more than automata, a genetically powered simulacra acting out according to deterministic criteria.
I prefer the first option (if that wasn't clear already). The second option is empty.
R-
All fair points. The slightly more fleshed out version of what I meant runs something like: once you take a 3rd person / objective view of our actions and choices, it's clear that everything we do or chose is conditioned by factors not themselves chosen, and, viewed that way, everything is "luck." But that, as you point out, is "empty" insofar as it's inferentially inert for the purposes of practical or moral reasoning. All is, no oughts, so to speak. From the 1st person / subjective perspective, the only way to make sense of our own lives from the inside requires that we extend the self in a way that pulls those "arbitrary" factors like genetic makeup and upbringing into the background as constitutents of the choosing agent (rather than external factors determining the choice). Once we do that, the imperative of respect for persons immunizes those factors from interference in something like the way that the moral arbitrariness of my existing in the first place (just this sperm fertilizing just that egg) doesn't make my continued existence a matter of moral indifference.
Julian, I'm essentially in agreement with you, but you risk dangerous confusion when you say things like, "The argument to stress isn't that 'hard work' is more important than 'luck' (they're not really separable issues)". Hell yes, they are. If not at the metaphysical level you're currently engaged in, certainly at the level of psychology or sociology or economics. The key concept is *recursion*. Behaviors to which we assign praiseful terminology like "hard work" are generally cases where positive or negative responses from society strongly affect how much of the behavior occurs. Even beauty falls into this category: I'm never going to look like Tom Cruise *or* John Lovitz, but you can bet your ass that mine would be considerably flabbier if women swooned equally over those two guys. Failure to grasp the importance of feedback is the essential failing of Rawls' 5-minute-plan ethics, which would quickly destroy human society if not for the fact that both human psychology and existing social structures have strong immune systems against such non-cyclical moral reasoning.
If personal virtues are actually just a matter of luck, they are not virtues at all. If that's the case, the lazy and the stupid may be entitled to rip off the smart and industrious. Or at least they have a better case for doing so than if luck played no part in success.
But what happens if you choose to take this point of view as a basis for public policy? You get redistributive taxation and destroy the incentives of the industrious to produce. The result may well be that both the lucky and the unlucky are worse off. Is it better to be somewhat unlucky in South Korea or somewhat lucky in North Korea? You cannot argue this stuff in the abstract without considering what experience teaches us about how real people actually behave.
Julian,
That's kind of my point, as well. I do realize that an internal viewpoint doesn't necessarily invalidate the external one, but even in the external view, choice still has some sway, in that our choices influence the events from that point. Your birth, for example, is a result of a choice by your parents to interact. Even though the specific combination that became you included a substantial amount of chance, even that chance would not have existed but for the choice of your parents.
While it can be further argued that every choice is predestined or preordained (or deterministic in some fashion), I still tend to argue against that concept.
In terms of our current understanding of the physical laws underlying our universe, the basic principles are underpinned by quantum phenomena that are truly random. Such an underlying structure would seem to contradict the idea of absolute determinism, thus providing at least some bounds for actual choices, independent of our constitutions.
At some level, we must live as if our choices matter, even with the reality that there is much beyond our control.
Ultimately, my point is that even if the article we're discussing is entirely correct, it is no justification for any attempts at social redress for any perceived imbalance caused by the circumstances of our birth. This isn't to say we can't attempt to improve the available options for those less fortunate, but it cannot be by mandate.
I've never had a problem with the fact that all choices are a matter of both free will and predestination. I don't get why people think it's an either/or question.
To an omniscient god would everything be predestined? Yes. Is that you? No. Can you deny that there are choices of action and that they will have consequences? Of course not. There is no time in your life that you can be said not to be choosing. That's just what the word means.
Why would it matter if there were a God? How in the Sam Hell would you know what He wanted you to do other than by deciding yourself?
I don't see this as effecting the question of ethics one way or the other. The question still remains how to do the most good. It's not possible to say that decisions don't have consequences which effect which choice people will make, even if you decide to throw out the entire experience of your existence and lay down for a God who may not exist, and is - at best - irrelevant.
I disagree with Hovig that human plasticity is pretty much extinct by college age (I am certainly the exception to that!). It simply isn't so. It may be luck that one "chooses" to enter the military (per the article) or "happens" to be exposed to a positive mentor -- but those environments have the characteristics of usually teaching one 1) that choices have consequences, and 2) how to "make" choices (i.e., consider several aspects, think of both the long and short term, goal setting, etc.)
To simply say that someone has had bad luck (i.e., came from a negative environment) and thus must be given a handout (for example in the article, raising minimum wage) doesn't necessarily follow. I'm not arguing the merits of minimum wage or its rate, here, but I'll mention an article that recently appeared in the KC (MO) Star on children of welfare recipients, and those children's opinion of and goals for themselves. Every single one of the families had chosen to spend approximately $70/month on cable t.v. out of a very limited, subsidized budget. Often while decrying the negative environment the children were living in. It apparently didn't occur to them to save the cable t.v. money in order to improve their living options in the future.
Regarding genetics vs. environment, I personally come from a family where there is a pretty clear demarcation between those who made "positive" choices, and those who didn't. Again, if one is going to answer "luck!!" to any outcome, no matter how disparate, it is an argument reduced to absurdity. Luck may play a role. One's ability to grasp the opportunity afforded by "good luck" may be influenced by genetics/environment. But to paint with such a broad sweep the lack of freewill, ignores, I think, too many examples in human history.
Something that has long stuck with me is a t.v. report on a youth that had been sexually abused, and a relative commenting to the effect, "too bad, he would have had a good future if this hadn't happened." Poppycock! One should never concede defeat because of the circumstances one's in. Negative environment does not equal inability to rise above it and succeed. To claim so, is defeatism, nihilism pure and simple.
You can have your damn plasticity. I'll continue to determine my life, despite the obstacles and including whatever zig-zags might be required.
Matthew Miller wrote:
This awareness of luck's role ...is what led Friedman to stress the importance of providing equal opportunity via education, and of keeping careers open to talent.
Just what is he trying to attribute to Friedman?
Why do we have to allow for luck to accomidate talent? Unless, he is saying that certain minority ancestry is unlucky. Or, is this a non-sequitur?
Also, Miller also makes the leap, that since some people are unlucky and deserve assistance therefore it is justified to FORCE others to render the same. BUT, the evaluation of what role fortune or the lack thereof has played in peoples lives is quite a subjective matter and there can be NO justice forcing others to help when they may not share the assessment that it is needed let alone the values to give help. This, of course, says nothing of the practicle consideration of how getting assistance in a "right to" scenario deprives the recipient of the feedback of a voluntary arrangement.
JDM,
I essentially agree. One of my points is that whatever the source of the determinism (God, physical laws, etc.(assuming that determinism does in fact exist)), we live our lives with at least the perception that we have freedom of action and the ability to choose.
I don't personally believe that we are preordained with all of our choices hard wired into us. I believe that the choices that we face, are in fact, real choices, the results of which we must deal with.
Whether real or deterministic, we really have no choice but to live as though these choices are real, because there is no way for us to make any other determination (outside of a hypothetical sense, anyway). For all practical purposes, choice is real.
And if we must live as though the choices we make are real, we also cannot gainsay the results of those choices. Our actions and the consequences of those actions are among the defining characteristics of who we are as individuals.
We cannot pretend that choice is meaningless, and we cannot base any notion of fairness or equitability on the idea that circumstances override our choices.
Joe,
Did you mean this work?: 1953 paper called "Chance, Choice, and the Distribution of Income"
Rand's argument is actually pretty weak; introducing free will doesn't make matters any better vis a vis the pseudo problem she sets up... if anything, it makes matters worse. A computer that could "choose" the answer to a math problem... that is, depart from deterministic rules for churning out an answer... would be less, not more reliable. Nothing about having a "free choice" about the conclusions we come to gives us any greater warrant for confidence in those conclusions.
John, Although I am surely more sympathetic to Rand in general than Julian is, I agree that her arguments regarding free will are weak. She makes a fundamental distinction between the metaphysical and the manmade, that is, between states of the world that are consequences of human action, and those that aren't. She is usually interpreted to be saying something to the effect that everything not a consequence of human volition is a consequence of deterministic necessitation, but that consequences of human volition are not deterministically necessitated. But, given the continuity of humanity with nature, why think this? Rand (again, as usually interpreted) then shifts to an introspective, transcendental argument for indeterminism. She argues that the volitional act of denying (indeterministic) free assumes what it seeks to disproves, and so is incoherent (in much the way denying the law of non-contradiction)is incoherent. (This is why Objectivists think free-will is more or less axiomatic.) But the argument (on this interpretation) assumes that volitional cognitive acts have indetermistic causes, based in special causal powers of higher-order consciousness. (Sophisticated Objectivists thus often get interested in the literature on "agent-causation".) But she provides no argument, other than an appeal to self-evidence, that volitional cognitive acts are non-deterministic. What we get, basically, is an appeal to our sense of having multiple open alternatives when making choices. But the compatibilist or soft determinist will simply reply that the phenomenology of openness is simply an artifact of our ignorance of the causal factors that will determine what we will do. Randians do not seem to me to have an adequate rejoinder to this competing proposal about the experience of deliberation and choice, and thus no good argument for indeterminism in choice, and thus no good argument for the metaphysical/man made distinction.
I prefer William James' argument, that if we don't have real choices, why do we have an emotion such as regret? Regret would be insanity for a mere "robot."
Kevin
Jason & Julian:
It's admittedly been a while since I stumbled around in philosophy -- it was my double-major but I bailed on it to get the heck out of school -- but I'm just not getting your points.
Julian: I've read Hume and the responses to Hume. As with much philosophical disagreement, there appear to be significant differences in defining terms that prevent a clear discussion from leading to a clear conclusion.
On morality, if our belief in free will is simply a pretense to make morality and justice seem meaningful, then it fails. It's a pretense. It fails to rescue morality and justice, morality and justice become impossible, and we are left with a word where individual freedom is impossible to conceptualize and impossible to defend.
Julian: sentient beings aren't computers, and computers aren't sentient. There are probabilities involved in predicting human behavior, but not certainties. Value judgments are subjective, not like math problems, which assume a common frame of reference (such as integers). I really can't get past the idea that for determinism to be true, it must be impossible for you to convince me it is true. Either I already know it, or I'll never know it, or I am fated to know it at some point.
All joking about Randians aside, she did grasp an important point here, though she didn't use the right term to explain it. Basically, free will is a postulate that enables a thinking being to interact with the external world. I don't care how much someone argues for determinism, it is impossible for that person to truly internalize the concept of having no free will. The very language we use, the very tasks of thinking and acting are predicated on the prior belief that 1) the self exists, 2) the self is capable of discerning the existence of other real things, and 3) the self is capable of forming a thought or taking an action related to those other real things.
The religious would take these matters on faith. Indeed, many would seen the philosophical necessity of free will as evidence of the divine in an otherwise mechanistic world. But you don't have to be religious to appreciate the necessity of free will as a postulate -- a postulate, by definition, requiring neither proof nor explanation as to its mechanics. How can free will exist in a world of scientific laws and cause and effect? Perhaps we can discover the answer to this question, but I don't find it a particularly useful question. Perhaps there are limits to reason, or perhaps the cost of acquiring the answer is extremely huge. Either way, I don't care to waste my time on it.
I don't care to waste my time on it. I exist, I decide what to do with my time, and I don't care to waste it. Lee & Co. were right: "I will choose Free Will."
"Determinism is true by logical necessity. It's no longer up for debate."
Sure it's up for debate. There is the reality of quautum mechanics which is random and therefore makes a totaly deterministic universe impossible. But, how could this fact free our brains from the "deterministic lock' since quantum phenomenon occurr at size scales magnitudes smaller then those of the nueral phisiology our brains? It's chaos to the rescue! The theory is;(there is empirical evidence) that the quautum mechanical effects are ramped up ala the "butterfly effect" so they become large enough to impinge on our brains at the cellular level.
See: "The Quantum Brain" by Jeffery Santinover for this and a lot more interesting stuff.
Weather we do or don't have free will has, of course, no bearing on our political decisions because as John Hood observed: "unless free will exists, there is no point debating the existence of free will." Or anything else...
R: Determinism is true by logical necessity. It's no longer up for debate.
As for the claim that deserts needn't be justified all the way down to their foundations, this is simply a matter of opinion, and anyone who fails to see the triviality of this argument simply can't read.
"Deserts needn't be justified all the way down! Here's an intuitive argument that'll make you think like me! (blind man)"
"No, you're wrong! Deserts DO need to be justified down to their foundations. Here's another intuitive argument leading to my conclusion! (there are thousands scattered throughout the literature)"
It's purposeless in the most banal way imaginable.
The "unless free will" point just doesn't follow. You can't draw any pragmatic inferences from the fact that your future actions are determined. Speaking of things that don't follow... quantum mechanics, with or without chaos theory, just doesn't help one bit. (We may have actually argued this waaay back in the day on the old FMN forums Rick...) A decision that's indeterminate in advance because of a subatomic blip that "butterflies up" to the macrostructure of the brain is no more a free choice than one that's mechanically determined. Philosophers don't agree on much of anything, but they're as close to unanimous as one ever sees them that the QM loophole is a non-starter.
"But this should make people reconsider some of the pompous "I hauled myself up by my bootstraps" BS that's constantly spewed as an excuse for social tightfistedness."
But government welfare (besides being unfair) has been shown to have a negative effect on the upward mobility of the poor.
"But this should make people reconsider some of the pompous "I hauled myself up by my bootstraps" BS that's constantly spewed as an excuse for social tightfistedness."
"But government welfare (besides being unfair) has been shown to have a negative effect on the upward mobility of the poor."
You miss the point. The quote to which you responded is not an argument FOR government welfare. It is a criticism of a response to such proposals. Some people believe that every successful person has earned his or her status and that poor people are simply lazy. They further believe that, since they were able to succeed, anyone can. But the playing field is not level. Some are born with tremendous disadvantages (poor, stupid, ugly, and infirm) some are born with tremendous advantages (rich, connected, smart, & beautiful) Many are born with a mixed bag of advantages and disadvantages (e.g. smart and driven - but ugly, short, and asthmatic or rich and beautiful - but stupid, lazy, narcissistic, or whatever). What we do to ?remedy? this unequal playing field (if anything) is an open question. A strong case can be made that the best policy is to do nothing to level it. But to assert that the field is level is moronic.
If one looks a bit beyond the Judeo-Christian-Islamic viewpoint of the world, one can find some potential answers that are eluding this discussion.
The situation one is born into is a direct result of the karma of one's previous lives.
Thus, if one is born with only one eye, some action of the distant past has resulted in that outcome.
If one is born to great wealth or poverty, that too is the result of past actions.
There is no one to blame for one's situation but one's own self, and the activities one engaged in in the past.
Erjaz Icbal
If one looks a bit beyond the Judeo-Christian-Islamic viewpoint of the world, one can find some potential answers that are eluding this discussion.
The situation one is born into is a direct result of the karma of one's previous lives.
Thus, if one is born with only one eye, some action of the distant past has resulted in that outcome.
If one is born to great wealth or poverty, that too is the result of past actions.
There is no one to blame for one's situation but one's own self, and the activities one engaged in in the past.
Erjaz Icbal
If one looks a bit beyond the Judeo-Christian-Islamic viewpoint of the world, one can find some potential answers that are eluding this discussion.
The situation one is born into is a direct result of the karma of one's previous lives.
Thus, if one is born with only one eye, some action of the distant past has resulted in that outcome.
If one is born to great wealth or poverty, that too is the result of past actions.
There is no one to blame for one's situation but one's own self, and the activities one engaged in in the past.
Erjaz Icbal
Philosophical unanimity doesn't necessarily translate to how things *actually* work.
The current crop of philosophical discussions are interesting, and may provide a fair amount of direction for examination and discussion, but it isn't necessarily the last word on the subject.
There is certainly no *evidence* that consciousness and free will are contraindicated by physical law, the nature of our universe, or anything else. They may be, they may not be.
At the level of individuals, we clearly have the impression, at least, of free will and freedom of action, and there is no context at that level that clearly makes the case in either direction (it can be argued reasonably well on both sides).
I tend to think that consciousness can escape from determinism, at least at some levels, and as a result, there is an opening for real 'free will'.
Julian wrote:
"You can't draw any pragmatic inferences from the fact that your future actions are determined."
But our pragmatic inferences (all thought) would also be determined. ( I'm assuming a state where our past actions have been determined as well.) And if determinism (no free will) is true, we can't KNOW any "facts" can we?
"quantum mechanics, with or without chaos theory, just doesn't help one bit. A decision that's indeterminate in advance because of a subatomic blip that "butterflies up" to the macrostructure of the brain is no more a free choice than one that's mechanically determined."
Why not? Is there not a breaking of the "chain of causality"? The brain cells, at least in the critical areas (the microtubules, I think the speculation is) may always manifest this indeterminate (but not random) state. With out the QM loophole, how may free will be physically possible? Julian, what are (were) FMN forums?
Book Hint: (remember that column in Reason a while
back?) Anyway, I just got, but haven't started yet: "The Volitional Brain, Towards a Neuroscience of Free will" Ed, Libet et al Chapters include: "Neuroscience", "Physics", and "Philosophy". Looks good, I'm inspired to get into it now.
I think it's important to distinguish between maldistribution of goods resulting from past (and present) force and those that are simply the luck of the draw.
But I take issue with those who believe "economic power" or "social power" as such is "coercive." Differences in skill and competence, site advantages of land, and so forth, are unavoidable, and will lead to some difference in wealth (although I don't think it would be nearly as great as at present, or be compounded from one generation to another, without the State's intervention). To equate constraints imposed by the general state of affairs, or by a finite natural order, with "coercion" is gnostic.
Here's a link to a Stanford Encyclopedia article with a discussion of desert and its relationship to entitlement and luck:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/desert/
Right on the money, Kevin.
A similar hootchie koo happens in the discussion of 'social justice'. It is not unjust that I'm only 5'7 while others are much bigger. It is similarly not unjust that some are genetically advantaged or have more money at birth, unless you can demonstrate that the money was taken from someone else unjustly.
The problem is that arguments for welfare rights to 'balance the scales' are much more rhetorically potent than arguments based on envy. You will hear the argument that so and so didn't earn their money, but you never hear how the beneficiary of redistribution did earn it.
"Have you met them. the poor? Lovely people, I just know you'll like them. "Course they haven't got two pennies to rub together, but then, that's because they're poor!: - Robin Hood, as played by John Cleese in the film "Time Bandits."
The problem with free will isn't that we either have it or we don't, the problem is that if we do have it, your choices may eventually conflict with mine. And the result of the conflict becomes, at least in part, a matter of luck.
I have tried to follow this learned conversation, but apparently nature and nurture have predetermined that I will not get it.
Seriously, it is free will that is necessarily true, not determinism. Without the concept of free will, of the ability of human beings to choose among alternatives (though obviously there are constraints to the alternatives that differ from person to person), morality and justice are irrelevant concepts.
Plus, unless free will exists, there is no point debating the existence of free will. Your native gray matter and your experiences will determine whether you believe it is true.
I truly shudden to say this here, but didn't Ayn Rand provide a pretty good and accessible treatment of these issues some time ago? Her insights weren't original, but they were at least clearly and persuasively stated.
Or so I am compelled by fate to believe.
John Hood,
See David Hume for the beginning of the end of metaphysically significant free will. From the philosopher's standpoint, it is VERY difficult to argue that free will exists, or is even desirable.
The postulation that will is an uncaused cause of action is actually pretty scary. When you say, I know my mother, if she has free will, you are by definition incorrect. You can only know that which behaves predicatbly to some extent, and uncaused causes have no predictability.
The introduction of quantum mechanics into the discussion, as some are wont to do, is a red herring. Even if the predictability of subatomic activity disappears, there is still no room for a choice being made. Instead of being governed by a single cause to a single effect, you are governed by a single cause, then a coin toss, then a single effect.
Modern treatment of free will is more along the lines of, 'we had better act like we have free will so as to be able to make statements about morality and ethics that are meaningful.'
Does anyone recall an essay that David Schmidtz of Arizona University wrote? Desert, he argues, is traditionally understood in retrospective terms (i.e.: What people deserve always depends on what they have done in the past). Thus, when talking about desert, it is asked, ?Has A done enough prior to receiving X to deserve X qua reward?? Clearly, the expectation is that unless A has done enough, his reception of X was undeserved and his remuneration for services unearned. Conversely, if he has done enough, his reception of X was deserved.
Yet, even if this retrospective view of desert is accepted, it still needs to be asked, ?Retrospective from where?? Some might look back at A year from the time when he received X and ask, ?Did he deserve the opportunity given to him?? In doing so, the question is still retrospective, but retrospective to A?s actions after A has received X. In that sense, A can be said to have deserved the opportunity given to him.
What matters, in other words, is whether A has or has not wasted the opportunities given to him. In this sense, desert stops being a reward or remuneration for services rendered. Instead, it becomes an opportunity to prove his worth. Thus, Schmidtz writes,
[Retrospective] statements overlook an important, perhaps even the most important, category of desert-making relation. Even when action is needed to forge a connection between outcome and internal features, the action need not precede the outcome. In particular, we have not yet done anything to deserve our natural endowments at the moment of our birth, but that need not matter. What matters, if anything at all matters, is what we do after the fact.
Returning to A, it may be asked, ?Has A done enough after receiving X to have deserved X qua opportunity?? After all, if X no longer is understood as a reward, but as an opportunity, then it may be that at least sometimes Schmidtz?s ?prospective? view is one that matters.
Clearly, therefore, ?retrospection? is unnecessary to the conception of desert. Thus, an employee who has been promised a lucrative contract may promise ?to work hard in order to deserve it?.
Of course, to understand desert in these terms does pose serious problems for Rawls? theory. Indeed, Rawls himself seems to have changed his view in his revised edition of A Theory of Justice. There he added, ?To be sure, the more advantaged have a right to their natural assets, as does everyone else; this right is covered by the first principle under the basic liberty protecting the integrity of the person?.
You do presume, Tommy. I'm not making a point. I'm punching a hole in one.
"Nobody can choose to be born to rich parents, but parents without the means to support children can choose not to have any, or choose to work more to provide for them."
Which is absolutely irrelevant to the question of fairness to the child. You want to hold a person responsible for his or her behaviors, fine. But holding them responsible for their parents' behaviors? No way.
Julian,
I'm surprised you didn't, in honor of Mr. Bennett, make some kind of "Luck be a lady" allusion in the title.
How does accepting the fact that someone may be born into less than ideal circumstances translate into holding them responsible for their parents behaviour?
Conversely, how does any form of mandated redistribution of assets (or options, etc.), truly ameliorate those kind of circumstances?
It might be argued that it gives the disadvantaged some help in overcoming the circumstances, but even if that is true, it certainly can't be argued that the disadvantaged person *deserved* that aid (or that the person the *aid* was taken from deserved to have it taken), any more than they *deserved* to be born into their circumstances.
Most of the *help* that is provided in this kind of context doesn't truly help, but merely fosters an entitlement mentality, coupled with a tendency to create a class of dependents, with the concomitant lack of motivation to make the effort to improve.
Just like the old saw; Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish and you feed him for life. Such mechanisms as government welfare are the equivalent of giving a man a fish instead of teaching him to fish. I'm willing (even as a libertarian) to allow a little fuzziness in the dogma to allow for occasional assistance to those truly in need (although I still contend that the government does this worst of all), but it should *never* be allowed to become a lifestyle, or even a long term process.
"I don't believe that little Johnny silverspoon earned what he has. I also don't believe that we have the right to rob him merely to assuage our feelings of jealousy in the name of 'fairness'."
Perhaps it was little Johnny silverspoon's parents who earned it. In which case, stealing from little Johnny to give to the poor is in effect steeling from little Johnny's parents--who choose to pass their wealth down to their son.
I have to add in a comment on luck, based upon my experience as a rifleman. When target shooting, you tend to shoot a group which is a two dimensional Guassian distribution--the famous "bell curve". Any given shot involves some luck. A bad shot might get lucky, and hit the X ring, while a better shot might score a 10 or even a 9. But the better shot tends to be "luckier" because his Guassian distribution is tighter--in the long run he tends to win (score higher), despite the intervention of luck ON EACH AND EVERY SHOT.
Joe wrote: "Which is absolutely irrelevant to the question of fairness to the child. You want to hold a person responsible for his or her behaviors, fine. But holding them responsible for their parents' behaviors? No way."
Joe,
It ain't about holding them responsible for their parents behavior. However, children should be able to benifit from their parents success, and conversly they have no right to expect that wealth should be confiscated on their behalf if their parents are not succesful.
Any member of a free society has a right to pass their wealth to others as they choose. If I pass wealth on to my children it becomes theirs to do as they wish, and any concept of "deserving" is a moot point.
Well it is reopening the can of worms but here is one philosopher who doesn't think Free Will has lost the debate.
1. The quantum stuff is important because it shows the strong argument for determinism to be false. This argument is of course from the casual closure of the physical universe which asserts that all physical events are fully explainable in physical terms.
2. The determinist tends to cheat and the quantum stuff pushes us this way too, into talking about uncaused actions when the Free Will believer tends to think there are free choices/decisions not actions.
3. We have only an inference to base our belief in causation on since causation is an unobservable event, what we actually see when the white ball causes the black ball to go into the pocket is simply two events the white ball moving x distance then halting when it contacts the black ball which then moves into the pocket. We infer that the white ball caused the black ball to move but in fact all we are seeing is correlation. And the cry of every good social scientist (And yes philosophers are at least these) is that correlation is not causation, in fact there is a whole history of humans making dodgy causal inferences ie He drives bad and has yellow skin a ha he drives bad because he has yellow skin...
The long and the short of it are that the arguments both for free will and determinism are indecisive as good ol' Kant claimed
Cheers David Hunter
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DATE: 12/11/2003 03:18:49
Without friends no one would choose to live, though he had all other goods.
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DATE: 12/21/2003 04:14:54
Some nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men.