For the Children (#279)
Groups such as the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children are cheering MSN's decision to shut down free and anonymous chat rooms, which are sometimes used by pedophiles or child pornographers looking for prey.
Far be it from me to suggest it's not great to make thigns harder for scumbags, but isn't this like closing down a public park because flashers or muggers sometimes go there? Maybe parents are eager enough for an online service with that feature that it'll prove a good business decision, and certainly "kid safe" online spaces are a fine idea. But isn't it maybe a better idea in the long run to just teach your kids not to meet up with sketchy people they encounter in chat rooms?
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As we all know, kids were never abused (except by the Catholic Church) until this Internet thing came along.
I don’t have any statistics, but isn’t most child abuse (not to mention child abduction) done by people the kid already knows?
One possible story that hasn’t gotten much attention lately: I suspect that a lot of pedophiles hang out online (and elsewhere) looking not for children, but for single mothers they can date so they can later have access to their kids.
Ban match.com and the personal ads in all newspapers! For the children!
When flashers and muggers are known to frequent a park, the police take a number of high profile walks through it to scare them away.
joe – that’s true, and there have now been documented police stings in online chat rooms as well. I admire the police and would never be able to do the work they do, but this type of policework I think would be pretty darn cool. It has a sort of “Ha, ha! Gotcha, you stupid scumbag!”, poetic justice sort of appeal to it.
“isn’t this like closing down a public park because flashers or muggers sometimes go there?”
No, it is not. No one sues the city for owning the park in which someone got mugged. However, laws being what they are, ISPs can be sued for any criminal activity to which their site was “an accessory.”
Also, Microsoft got no credit for running scores of well-maintained chat rooms but ran a substantial risk of having their name associated with any illegal activity that took place in any of them. Small-time ISPs can shut down their site and open a new one under a different name. Microsoft (or MSN) does not have that option.
I think that their risk-to-benefit analysis is easy to understand.
Good points all, Jan.
I’m reminded of an article I read last year about a ring of law firms that do nothing but sue Walmart. One can imagine that risk vs return means something different when you are facing that.
Ick.
I’m excited by this. I’m going to start working on getting the telephone system banned, too. It’s high time that we got rid of this threat to children. There have been documented cases of adults talking to children on the phone, and that is just one small step away from serious abuse. If the telephone industry had any ethics, it would shut itself down. If not, we MUST take government action.
Are you with me?
OH PUL-EEZ,
If Microshaft is pulling out of online chat hosting it is because they’ve decided that forcing everyone to use MSNchat doesn’t deliver enough world domination to cover expenses. Everything Redmond does is all about money and power, the ‘for the children’ line is just media pabulum.
Brad S,
The difference with your police stings is that when police walk through the park, they almost always make it clear they are the police. In chat rooms, they always misrepresent themselves.
Another big reason that they got rid of the chat rooms is probably that there was a high cost to “chaperone,” monitor and maintain these rooms with almost no return on investment (especially hen the risk for lawsuits is factored in). Chat rooms are a cost center, not a revenue provider. The “for the children” routine is just PR.
“But isn’t it maybe a better idea in the long run to just teach your kids not to meet up with sketchy people they encounter in chat rooms?”
God forid that parents would actually have to take responsibility to teach their children anything! It takes a village, people (especially someone elses).
anon raises and interesting point. Why is it that seeing a cop walking through the park wouldn’t interfere with my enjoyment of it, but knowing the police were monitoring a chat room would make me not want to go there?
“isn’t this like closing down a public park because flashers or muggers sometimes go there?”
Again, not at all like a public park. More like the vacant lot or abandoned house where kids gather.
Public parks are regularly policed and patrolled by vigilant parents.
The abandoned houses get boarded up, and vacant lots mowed by the RESPONSIBLE landowners. Irresponsible landowners are legally liable for criminal activity taking place on thier property.
Vigilance Matters!
http://www.vigilancematters.com
I hardly think that a sterilized community to raise children in is a benefit to society. Just like the immune system, how can a child learn to look out for themselves if there was never a threat of danger. Sure that sounds great on paper, but when there is something like a terrorist attack, you’ll get the “deer caught in the headlights” syndrome. I’m not advocating thrusting children into the lions den, however there is a line to be drawn between adult freedoms and child protection. The “for the children” mantra is a slippery slope that will one day bring witches back to the stakes for a big Texas bbq. Anyway, do we really want to start raising nothing but future democrats?
Case in point, there was a creepy old guy I grew up around. None of the kids liked him, most feared him, he was just a bit too anti-social for anyone’s good. One day, in my teens, we found he was busted for child molestation. The irony was she was a little girl from his church, so they did know each other. Apparently, he took ‘love thy neighbor’ a bit too far. Anyway, us kids knew better to get too close to Mr Creepy, and now we recognize that particular behavior pattern as being something to be on the watch for.
I think the real reason they shut down the chat rooms is that they were to busy writing security patches to maintain them.
“Public parks are regularly policed and patrolled by vigilant parents.”
heh. that’s rich.
ooh! look out! vigilant parents! help!
ok, in all fairness, maybe where you live.
Perhaps there is some principled distinction to be made between public parks and internet chat rooms.
It’s much less likely that a child (of an age likely to be taken advantage of) will be at a park by herself, whereas she might be found in those chat rooms all alone.
Ultimately the “teach your kids” solution would probably work out best, but I don’t see this interim solution to be particularly pernicious.
All I know is that if I were running a chatroom, and there were pedophiles preying on children in it, and there was no feasible way to stop this, I’d shut the thing down.
In the end I have to agree with Greg that there is nothing pernicious in MSN’s decision to stop providing a service for whatever reason they choose or choose to give publicly. Just as there was nothing compelling MSN to offer chat, there is nothing compelling them to either keep offering chat or compelling them to shut it down, or preventing them fro doing so.
David McElroy,
Nah, that’s too much trouble. Let’s just make everyone under 18 wear a bourkha. And for dealing with the epidemic of beastiality, we need to legally mandate boxer shorts for all household pets and farm animals. Nothing’s too tyrannical or stupid when it’s “for the children.”
Kevin Carson
I’m watching you!
(signed) John Ashcroft
c’mon now aren’t you looking foreward to living in “the village”? Who is #1??
I am not a numbah, I am a free man! Where’s Hillary?
I think the analogy of kids loitering in a shopping mall is more appropriate than that of the public park. I would hope, however, even in our grossly litigious society there would be some limits to one’s ability to sue ancillary parties.
I can only image M&M/Mars being sued because its candy was used as the lure for a child by some pedophile.
I tend to agree that Microsoft was jettisoning what it viewed as an unproductive part of its operation–the liability issue is only a very small part of that. Besides, now Microsoft can replace that free service with a subscriber service where people have to submit actual personal data.
That could make the banner and pop-up advertisers happier–all that accurate personal information for targeted marketing.
Yeah to Warren’s “PUL-EEZ”. This will go down in the PR Hall of Wool as one of the most succesful cons of the new millenium. Just amazing the credulous nonsense I’ve read about this the past couple days.
What’s next, respectful coverage of a Microsoft announcement that it left the worm ports open in XP so that THE CHILDREN would have a safe place to stay out of the rain?
There is just no reason to believe that MSN is doing this FOR THE CHILDREN. Except that Microsoft says so. Like I said there is just no reason to believe it.
I posted more on the topic here:
http://agendabender.blogspot.com/#106453441171570443
Brad S. said “there have now been documented police stings in online chat rooms as well.”
A few weeks ago, I popped in to my local city chat to see if anything interesting was going on – it wasn’t.
By far, the most traffic was generated by bots named SexyBiChick1048 inviting everyone to check out their personal webpage.
Next, there were locals who were discussing nothing more than how bored and mindless they were.
Finally, every once in a while, someone claiming to be a 10 or 12 year old girl who urgently wanted to talk about sex with as many people as possible.
This struck me as some kind of vigilante pedophile troll operation set up by some handwringing idiot. I don’t think a pedophile would fall for such an obvious trap though.
I’d imagine there are some 10 year old nymphomaniacs out there – I guess you have to start sometime. It’s probably easier for them to hook up with kids their own age than the people in chatrooms.
I don’t understand why MS eliminating free chatrooms is news. IRC is still there, and that will never go away. Then there are talkers, which have been around forever and are pretty much “adult chatrooms”.
What about AOL? Are they shutting down their chatrooms as well – or do they not have a pedophile problem?
hello I gest want to say that the cathlec cherch is not the one that abusees chldren so leave us alone and come of it it hurts to go on heer and see all this so leav tha cathle church alone now pleese we did not tell those pepol to have sex with those kids tghose are sick midded pepola dn cathlecs arent like that we love all and help all I hope you all stop dissing cathlecs like right now you should not dis some one or somthing untill you know all that facts !!!!!!!!!!!! maby you should stop and think that we are as mad at those pepol as you are ………..thank you and think adout that I will respekt your thoughts…
I, am cathlec and prod to be it and I am 13
Christianity might be a good thing if anyone ever tried it.
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HI I hope that we can talk soon im 14 and love boys I love to talk to a bout iny thing
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