Edward Said, RIP

The Columbia professor and controversial Palestinian commentator died this morning of pancreatic cancer. Charles Paul Freund considered Said's Orientalist critique in a 2001 Reason article.

Comments

[joe]

I've never before seen a definition of "western" that excludes Christianity. You're attempting to win the argument through definition.

[Steven Crane]

I wonder what Hayek would have to say about this. Perhaps instead of saying "Western", which encompasses everything from Smith and Acton to Comte and Marx, we should use a more defining term. Western culture isn't monolithic by any means either.

[$.02 spender]

I think the repressive and non representational forms of government in the ME have something to do with all this as well.

[rod boyd]

Outside of the hard-core, very non-libertarian academic left, precisely who defends this joker anymore...events simply outstripped his theories and crushed them. Not to say that his death is a good thing, but rather to observe that a careful reading of his (major) work proves him to be one of the emptiest suits in the gravity-lite corrdiors of academe. Despite his output,and despite the ferocity of his attacks and arguments, his work will justifiably fade.I'm a bit more comfortable with the work of Pipes and Lewis, in terms of legacy.

Joe--I think you're argument that "where peace and freedom reigning" in the time of affluence and opportunity, proves the case rather nicely, doesnt it? Precisely because the mid-east is a land of feudal, theocratic and classically dictatorial governments, where freedom is largely banished, is why they are so horrifically wretched. Three cheers for wars of liberation, says I.

[N. Coward]

I think Joe's arguments regarding liberalism & how it can only be achieved by a prosperous society is only half true, if that. Many asian cultures and countries were equally poor or poorer fifty years ago. They were also totalitarian. But they are no longer so. Why ? How do you explain that, Joe. Blaming the west, poverty, orientalism, whatever makes a nice excuse but sooner or later the Middle East/muslim society is going to have to examine its value system & beliefs sceptically to find the real reason for its stagnation.
And in case you havent't noticed, Saudi Arabia etc are not poor. So yes, the west can pat itself on its back for its superiority. It's been earned.

[N. Coward]

Joe,

Here's something about Western civ by a man Said absolutely despises.

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/wl1990.htm

[Anonymous]

How many people bashing Said here have actually read him?

[rod boyd]

i've, for one, read many of his shorter,politically oriented essays and most of orientalism. I have also read a small library of essays and criticism about his work, save for Ibn Warraq's mammoth work.

the only other place I have seen the assumption that people debating an authors work hadn't read him/her at all is a website dealing with Chomsky.

speaks volumes.

[Jean Bart]

The essential problem with defining Western Culture is that it is a term which allows such variant definitions. At times the West has been considered to stop at the Don, the Rhine, or the Urals for that matter. Christianity is as much a part of Western culture as the sack of Constantinople by Venice or the slave trade which created robust ports in Holland, France and Britain or Chartes or the greatness and the atrocites of the Roman Empire (or the Spartans for that matter) or the Enlightenment (the latter itself is a rather mixed bag, which is evident in one of its primary achievements - the French Revolution). Many romantics of varying stripes and the ahistorical in general tend to wish to ignore the bad while taking the good. To be frank this is neither very truthful or very useful.

Norman Davies addresses much of these issues, in the most successful way I've yet to see, in his one volume history of Europe titled "Europe."

BTW, just so everyone knows, Hayek was a bigoted and rather poor historian. Which is evidenced by his statement concerning the West stopping at the Rhine. Countries like Poland and Hungary ar just as much a part of the West as France or Britain are - in fact, the contact between these regions over the past several thousand years is far more rich and varied than most people can ever imagine.

[Jean Bart]

I've read both "Orientalism" and "Culture and Imperialism." Both were excellent scholarly works. Despite what some idiots on this board might think, Said greatly appreciated Western literature (read his Penguin introduction to "Kim" if you don't believe me) in general, and his points regarding how academic was an adjunct of Western imperialism are right on, especially with regard to the imperialism that occurred prior to WWII.

Unfortunately his expertise in one field did not carry over to his comments about current events. So criticism of his ideas and works is apropos, as is true of any scholar, but this doesn't really erase the contribution to his field found in works like "Orientalism."

[Jeff Clothier]

Oddly enough, the respect with which Said and his point of view are regularly treated by scholars, politicans, pundits and other idea-merchants tends to weaken his own Orientalist theorem. He was an eloquent spokesman for tolerance and a more objective eye toward world history - both of which I applaud - but the fact that there is no U.S. jihad against all Islam within and without its borders, and the fact that jihad in its most violent form against Westerners is regularly preached and practiced throughout the Islamic world would tend to lend credibility to the idea that Western civilization is, at minimum, considerably less barbarous than the East.

[joe]

The people with power don't have to start jihads. They can pose as avatars of peace and order.

[Jeff Clothier]

Meaning what, exactly, joe? We're talking culture here, not politcs.

I have a mosque down the street from me in myopic old Des Moines. By and large, my Muslim neighbors enjoy the same freedom to practice their religion in peace as anyone else. Can you say the reverse would be true in Riyadh?

Are there Christians enslaving Muslims for being Muslims anywhere of which you are aware? The reverse is commonplace in Sudan and has been reported in Morocco and Oran.

When was the last time the Pope issued a fatwah to end the life of a prominent Islamic author, or sanctioned the kidnapping and murder of civilians?

At one time, the Islamic world was the repository of knowledge, science and culture. It saved the West from its own folly during the Dark Ages. Unfortunately, it never came out of the 14th century.

[joe]

Meaning, it's a lot easier for liberalism and peace to reign in a situation of widespread comfort and opportunity (as was the case in Muslim countries during the Golden Age of Islam). When western countries have experienced the levels of disruption and hopelessness faced by most people in Muslim world, we have proven to be just as likely to behave horribly. See Germany in the 1930s.

So let's not pat ourselves on the back for our cultural and moral superiority, compared to the Muslim barbarians, just yet.

[joe]

Ron boyd, "Precisely because the mid-east is a land of feudal, theocratic and classically dictatorial governments, where freedom is largely banished, is why they are so horrifically wretched. Three cheers for wars of liberation, says I."

Hear, hear (although liberation is more often achieved by resistance). But let's not confuse liberation with westernization. Did the import of fascism liberate the Middle East? I'm tired of hearing "liberation" defined as "Whitey showing the wogs how to be civilized." Democracy in Iraq has to be Iraqi democracy.

[D.A. Ridgely]

By all means, let's not. Let's, instead, encourage them to establish open markets, legal systems that protect personal and property rights and tolerance of different beliefs so they can enjoy the same level of comfort and security and stop blaming the West for their own, largely self-created misery.

[Clement Vallandigham]

Joe, lack of comfort and opportunity have very little impact on this subject: Fascism was only around as a governing principle for 12 years, then the West had a bloody self correction, like we have self corrected re: slavery, voting rights and a myriad of other issues that the Arab/Muslim world is not even in the position to deal with.

Around the 12/13th century, the religious authorities for the major Muslim caliphates declared that there was not much else to discover in terms of reason and science, and everyone should get back to being better Muslims. The 3 century scientific renaissance faded. Any potential Muslim Thomas Aquinas or Erasmus was killed with that proclamation. The point is the Muslim world killed the chance for middle east enlightenment when things were at their best.

[Jeff Clothier]

True, joe. People in desperate straights tend to act desperately. They are also terribly susceptible to toxic ideology, as the Germany example illustrates. Nazism was a cultural expression that put a Protestant Christian mask over essentially pagan ideas. It was the opposite of Western Enlightenment thinking, not an example of it.

The flavor of Islam that drives the jihadists is likewise a throwback to precivilization that preys on the desperate. It is interesting to note, however that al Qaida operatives seem to come mainly from prominent and relatively wealthy families. Tom Friedman was on NPR yesterday describing the terrorists acting more out of a desire for influence and political clout - power, in other words - than out of desperation for the poverty and hopelessness of their respective peoples. They seem to think their religion and culture entitles them to end the lives of "infidels" at will and convenience. They wish to exert power over even the minutest details of their followers' or subjects' personal lives. These men would have been quite comfortable in S.S. or Gestapo uniforms, doni't you think?

[david f]

hey DA,

your thought to "encourage ... open markets, legal systems that protect personal and property rights" is an excellent argument in favor of getting rid of the welfare state here at home, too.

and jeff,

carrying your thoughts a bit:

think about academia's attitude towards Liberalism or other non-jonestown beliefs.

These same postmodernists who fettishize, say, africa (as a monolithic "culture", not a rich, diverse continent) and sit in their ivory towers and preach "tolerance","diversity", and have cute bumperstickers that say "minds are like parachutes - operate best when open" or "history celebrates its live conformists and its dead troublemakers" -- you know, "those types" -- they need to take a page from the meaning of tolerance and study it.

THEY need to look in the mirror and realize that competing ideas are more powerful than any cliche they can come up with. Or that failing a student because the student refuses to acknowledge that the UN should be able to impose taxes on sovereign nations in order to redistribute ("share the wealth gained at poor nations' expense") to poor countries does not show "tolerance". balls to them.

CP Freund's lengthy essay on Said back when is excellent, and it would be nice to see that as an alternative to Said's work on the syllabus.

thanks,
drf

[joe]

"(Naziism) was the opposite of Western Enlightenment thinking, not an example of it."

There is much more in the cultural history of Western society than the Enlightenment. The antecedents to which Hitler appealed were just as legitimately western as those that he denounced.

"al Qaida operatives seem to come mainly from prominent and relatively wealthy families."

So did most Nazi Party officials and SS men. I can very easily envision the top AQ people in Nazi uniforms - the appeals to a mythical past (and even more mythical future), the denial of reason, the glorification of martial death, the antisemitism...

DA - yes, let's. And while we're at it, let's do a few decent things, and stop doing a few indecent things, so that our advice has more credibility.

Clement - please note that the "corrections" to slavery and women's second class status occurred concurrently with the massive growth in wealth created by industrialization. Just as the Inquisition got "corrected" just as Spain of Europe was getting rich through colonial trade (and theft).

Lefturn - is it coincidence that totalitarian ideas came into vogue during a severe, extended international depression? Or that they reached their peak in a nation which was also enduring structural deficiencies that made the economic situation even worse? Or was it just a fad, like skinny ties?

[Jeff Clothier]

The sad part is that, historically, Islam and Christianity, which was the carrier of much of what we call Western thought, had much in common, including the concept of the brotherhood of all believers. The Umma, as it is called in Islam, was an expression of the essential equality of all Muslims despite nation, race or economic status. It implied a respect for individuals as opposed to groups within the body of believers. Then schism, racism and internecine conflicts of all kinds effectively did away with this as a driving concept.

The history of Christianity is rife with this sort of thing too, but Christian schisms tended toward less and less authoritarianism by the churches while Islamic schism has tended toward more authoritarianism and brutailty, the Wahabi sect being perhaps the most extreme example.

[Jeff Clothier]

joe - "There is much more in the cultural history of Western society than the Enlightenment. The antecedents to which Hitler appealed were just as legitimately western as those that he denounced."

Mmm, yes and no. The pagan religion Hitler hearkened back to and made himself the icon of was certainly Teutonic and IndoEuropean, but not particularly Western, as what is considered Western thought today has more to do with a scientific/rational state of mind than with any sort of mythology or mysticism, no matter the geographic area from which it comes.

This is perhaps the jumping off point between the Eastern and Western trains of thought. It is much easier for mysticism to justify all kinds of outrage, which explains the blood-orgies Christians have also been prone to. But if you think of the driving force of Western culture as primarily ratio-scientific, Islam left that behind centuries ago. As a result it has embraced the barbaric and backward. This does not prevent essentially mystical cultures from using the TOOLS of science and rationality, but it usually does mean they have to beg, borrow, buy or steal them in order to do so.

Essentially you are saying they are savage because they are poor. Historically it appears more as if they are poor because they chose to remain mystic and savage.

[joe]

Just reread Freund's piece. Short version: Said said that the American response to 9/11 included a sense that the Middle East, as a whole, is "what we're up against." Freund found Said's opinion foolish, and asserted that the American people were not the sort to blame an entire culture or religion for the acts of a few.

A year and a half later, America invades a Middle Eastern country that had nothing to do with the attacks, on the theory that the entire region needs to brought to heel in order to prevent more terrorism against America. Brought to heel, meaning weakened, and changed to be more like us. A poll reveals that 70% of Americans consider it likely that Iraq was involved in the attacks. Members of the military are quoted making references to "payback for 9/11," and bombs with messages such as "Happy Ramadan" are dropped on Iraqi targets.

Care to revisit this issue, Mr. Freund?

[rod boyd]

joe--I beleive that's what we are attempting to do there, and what, ultimately, we shall achieve--for them.

[david f]

Hey Jean Bart,

"Countries like Poland and Hungary ar just as much a part of the West as France or Britain are"

good call! that's something that people tend to forget these days, what with the EU using the word "europe" only to describe their club and all.

but here in chicago, there's a really cool polish community, and many feel even "more european" as one put it, due to their many, um, close interactions with the various continental powers throughout the years!

unfortunately, read berlingske.dk or jyllandsposten.dk or diepresse.at or faz.de and you'll see references to "europe" to mean the EU. all of those papers commented on the baltic states' "opportunity to join europe". i remember TF1 noting that Norway rejected the offer to be a part of "europe", too.

the concept of "europe" richness of history is an interesting topic, hell, just go back to the siege of vienna when "europe" ended at Rennweg... the north-south border, the catholic-protestant, etc. very cool stuff, indeed!

are you familar with Eric Zoellner? he does a great bit of work on the Austro-hungarian empire, addresses the maygar and slavic parts of that vast expanse, and looks at the danube river valley in the 60s and 70s. it's very good.

elias cannetti has a bunch of short stories from the lower danube as well.

but i've read said in a (REQUIRED) seminar on postcolonial studies in the postcolonial reader (holst-petersen, ed), have read a coupla other articles, and i never liked him. achebe's "things fall apart" on the other hand was interesting...

have a great weekend! au re-lire,
drf

[joe]

"joe--I beleive that's (Iraqi democracy) what we are attempting to do there, and what, ultimately, we shall achieve--for them."

We're going to achieve democracy - for them.

We, the United States, are going to achieve a genuinely Iraqi democracy.

This is beyond parody. Perhaps we should also work on achieving self determination for them?

[Steven Crane]

The quote wasn't so much an indication of bias about Eastern Europe as it is a criticism of the German group of philosophers at the time, who were a rather illiberal bunch.

[Jean Bart]

Steven Crane,

That group of authors are as much a part of the West as Hayek is. Given that their ideas were HEAVILY influenced by individuals like Plato and Kant its seems rather DENSE from him to claim otherwise.