Eve of Destruction?

Whatever you think about Tom Tancredo, the leading protect-our-borders-from-the-hordes advocate in Congress, the man is not shy about speaking his mind. In a wide-ranging interview with Right Wing News, Tancredo makes the case that immigration is ?threatening to the survival of this nation,? that President Bush is ?essentially ignoring the destruction of the nation,? that John Ashcroft ?has done a great job,? and that, with a little willpower, the United States could lock down the borders within a year or two. He also tosses off these curiosities:

There are places right now in East LA & Southern Texas that you would not honestly -- there is absolutely nothing that you would say makes them part of the United States of America. They are a separate country -- it is separate country -- right now, at this moment. [?]

People ask me, "Well of the Islamic Community, how many would you say are really terrorists?" I say, "There are relatively few, less than 10% of the Muslim population that you could categorize as (supporters of) terrorists." Now how many people in their heart of hearts in that community want to see the demise of this country? How many would cheer, not out loud maybe, but in their heart when things like 9/11 occur and I'll tell you; it's a majority among them.

Comments

[Rex Stetson]

Fyodor:
Yes, in rereading my original post, I could see how it was sort of vague and poorly written. All I meant was that it is unfair in my opinion to demonize ethnic or religious groups by attributing to them political ideas that we may disagree with, when there are plenty of groups that aren't a "minority" or "foreign" that have similar interpretations of US Foreign Policy, or America's "proper" role (policeman, rogue power, empire, etc.). Some people (whatever their religion or national origin) seem to always criticize US foreign policy as being wrong. Some people (often conservatives) always seem to defend it no matter what, and blindly supporting or opposing something like that all the time, no matter what- it sounds more like a religion than a reasonable position. As long as Janeane Garafolo and Susan Sarandon don't pull a Timothy McVeigh-type move, they should be allowed to criticize away. I think the Muslims in the U.S. deserve the same courtesy.

[joe]

Large scale immigration is, and always has been, one of the defining characteristics of American society. Ergo, those regions that don't have a high percentage of immigrants are not genuinely American.

The only places that are truly American are full of furrners.

[Lonewacko]

Here's a good introduction for those who are ignorant of what's going on: Is Mexico reconquering U.S. southwest?

That article answers the question above: "Until someone can show the *mechanism* by which the immigration of Mexicans into the US can become "conquest" by the state of Mexico over US sovereignty..." The short answer involves things like: dual citizenship, divided loyalties due to the various actions of the Mexican government, spreading the Aztlan myth, demagoguery by traitorous U.S. politicians, a demographic majority, etc. etc. If, as in Quebec, a majority of the people want something, than it's going to happen one day or another.

For instance, in the article, Armando Navarro from UC Riverside has this to say:

"If in 50 years most of our people are subordinated, powerless, exploited and impoverished, then I will say to you that there are all kinds of possibilities for movements to develop like the ones that we've witnessed in the last few years all over the world, from Yugoslavia to Chechnya," Navarro said.

"A secessionist movement is not something that you can put away and say it is never going to happen in the United States," he continued. "Time and history change."

In a 1995 speech to Chicano activists, Navarro said demographic trends are leading to "a transfer of power" to the ethnic Mexican community in the Southwest. He notes that most studies show that within the next 20 to 30 years Latinos will comprise more than 50 percent of the population of California. This fact, and other cultural and social developments, are opening the door for "self-determination" and even "the idea of an Aztlan," he said in his speech.

Bear in mind that Navarro is not like Tancredo; he's quite on the other side.

Before dismissing Tancredo's claims, I'd suggest doing a bit of research. See all the links and scary quotes I provide in the comments here and here. (Regarding the last thread, I'd still like to hear Julian Sanchez's explanation of his former teacher's remarks.)

"There are places right now in East LA... there is absolutely nothing that you would say makes them part of the United States of America"

I'm sorry, how is that not true? There are many places in L.A. that are more reminiscent of Mexico than the U.S. Like, Broadway, Pico-Union, parts of Highland Park and other Northeastern neighborhoods, etc. etc. Matt is no doubt familiar with L.A., and I find it difficult to believe he would think this would be a "curiosity."

"I think that the US should treat Mexican immigrants the same way the Mexican government treats Central American immigrants."

Good one, but hopefully we're better than that.

[Anonymous]

D.A. Ridgely: "My family has been having trouble with immigrants ever since we came to this country."

Hilarious. And right on the money. Perhaps Tancredo can find the ethinc purity he seeks elsewhere.

That said, I wouldn't mind if all US citizens were exposed to more "civics" and American history, and not of the "Columbus = Hitler" variety. Immigrants benefit from America, and America benefits from immigration. The way to keep America American is not to exclude immigrants, but to help them adjust.

(And it wouldn't be so bad if we Americans knew a bit more about history and civics ourselves. But that's another thread....)

[Hovig John Heghinian]

(Sorry, didn't mean to post anonymously [01:40 PM].)

[Jim Antley]

Sorry, Matt, I couldn't tell whether you were posting the link to the interview to make fun of it, or because you agree with Mr. Tancredo.

Tancredo is right on the money. He may not be a libertarian at all, but I do agree with him on this issue, as do most Americans. Being a libertarian does not mean you (or especially me) think that guarding our borders is wrong. It is one of the basic and few functions the US gov't should have.

His statement about Ashcroft was not a blanket statement that the Attorney General is a good guy all around (which I would totally NOT agree with), but just his stance/actions on the border problems.

Back to the border and the posts above. I thought I recall most of you all believing in property rights. Do you know what's happening to ranchers in outhern Texas, N. Mexico and Arizona who are trying to protect their land? Read up on that. Better take some Spanish first, as there won't be any English spoken in that part of the country if this keeps up. ( what's wrong with that, you say? Check out the whole Canada/Ontario fiasco.

Any post in response to this will say I am racist, I'm sure. Yeah, I actually get along real well with Hispanic people, but I don't like it when people come up to me talking Spanish. Screw that. I've been to Mexico, and I don't expect people to accomodate me in English there.

One more thing: Joe, most of the immigrants coming here in the past (incl. my ancestors) became Americans. I don't think that's happening anymore in the Southwest, and that's the problem.

[dhex]

maybe tancredo's right. after all, those papist irish took over new york city and look what happened. they made the pope mayor and everything.

columbus wasn't the dictator with the bad moustache, but i don't think he deserves a holiday either, esp. with all that "discovered america" crap that gets bandied about. CD, coincidentally, is celebrated as a largely italian holiday, at least in ny. italians being another group of papists...hmmm...

[Matt Welch]

Lonewacko -- I think Tancredo's statement about East L.A. is hyperbolic, inaccurate, and alarmist. I have never, ever, never, ever, not once, not even close, seen a single block in all of Southern California as filled with roadside trash, starving stray dogs, and open sewage trenches as in Baja California. I have never seen a neighborhood as grim or destroyed as those you find in the *second* world, let alone the Third (though I was abroad during the riots). Maybe I look at L.A. through rose-colored glasses, but that's what I see.

An interesting side note, that I'll be visiting in an L.A. Daily News column this weekend -- the Davis-recall campaign means goodies for Latino activists. Even before the special election was called, Gray reversed his previous opposition to issuing driver's licenses to illegal immigrants. Since he's depending on rallying the left-Democrat base for the recall, expect more of the same, and further re-heating of the immigration debate.

I probably don't agree with Tancredo & Lonewacko much about these issues, but they are right to note that the Mexican government has been active in pushing for driver's licenses, matrica consular cards, and lower in-state tuition for illegal immigrants. While the Dept. of Homeland Security has been tightening previously uneforced laws, states and cities have been busy loosening things. These public policy issues deserve a full airing, in my view.

[s.m. koppelman]

Many of the immigrant groups coming here in the past 150 years haven't "become Americans" from the looks of all those Minnesotan Swedes who ice-fish and make lutefisk, the fifth-generation Irish who donate to charities that funnelled money to the IRA, the Jews who send their kids to Zionist summer camps, the Amish and their adherence to Amishness, Greek youth folk-dancing groups, and Italian-Americans who drive hours to attend street church festivals that trace driectly back to the villages their ancestors came from in the 1880s.

The more things change...

[Mo]

Does anyone else find it funny that Tancredo thinks that these people left Mexico and illegally entered the United States in order to eventually move back to Mexico (by turning the Southwest into North Mexico). If they were happy with the way things were being run in Mexico, why'd they leave. If they like the American standard of living, why the hell would they ever try to secede and return to Mexico?

[Eric Pobirs]

You're being somewhat dishonest here, Matt. Either that or you've seen much less of Southern California than you portray.

Are the worst areas here as bad as the worst of Mexico? No, but that's just trying to measure the degree of awfulness. Once an area has fallen past a certain point it stops being useful to keep measuring the potential for becoming worse yet. Just because a region would be considered an upgrade for much of the world's poorest doesn't mean it should be acceptable to exist at all within our borders, especially when it is the direct result of bad policy.

[Matt Welch]

Eric -- I'm not being dishonest at all, I'm being literalist. According to my two eyes, I have never seen a place in Los Angeles about which I would feel remotely comfortable in stating, "absolutely nothing that you would say makes them part of the United States of America." And Baja, California (a place I'm very fond of) is hardly the "worst of Mexico," which is why I made the comparison (also, I've never been to the interior). Your two eyes (and Lonewacko's) see things differently; I won't bother calling you "dishonest" about that.

[Lonewacko]

I don't know what Tancredo meant by his reference to East L.A., all I know is what I mean. For instance, the area around Lincoln Park in Lincoln Heights is attractive and fairly clean. However, if Matt goes there he might feel like he's in a foreign country based on the perhaps frosty reception he receives. Try it and let us know what happens. This is a real minor point. There are always ethnic enclaves wherever you have large cities and immigrants. However, there usually aren't such a large number of unassimilated members of one ethnic group in one area (i.e., all of central L.A.)

For the backstory on Gray Davis, see "Gray Davis Made a Deal With Mexico" here.

As for the cutesy comments above regarding Irish papists, Eyetalians, etc. etc. would any of you care to enumerate the differences between past immigration and the current immigration from Mexico? If you can't do that, I'd just suggest stifling your "liberalism" until you know what you're talking about.

I posted this on the matt yglesias thread, but it bears repeating. I'd suggest reading the "Recommendations of the U.S. Commission on Immigration Reform" that describes Barbara Jordan's findings. Here's a quote:

"The Commission decries hostility and discrimination against immigrants as antithetical to the traditions and interests of this country. At the same time, we disagree with those who would label efforts to control immigration as being inherently anti-immigrant. Rather, it is both a right and a responsibility of a democratic society to manage immigration so that it serves the national interest."

"...[N]othing will take away from the fact that we remain a country of immigration. But at the same time, while we are so hospitable, ...our patience grows a little thin when people...try to manipulate our laws and overwhelm the American people by actions that ignore and circumvent the law. The U.S. can reclaim control of our borders without sacrificing our most cherished principles."

[Lonewacko]

Regarding second-world conditions in the good ol' USA, I'd also suggest a visit to Alpaugh, CA between the 5 and the 99 about 1.5-2 hours north of L.A.

s.m. koppelman: Can you list three differences between Italian-American immigrants of the 1880s and today's Mexican immigrants?

[joe]

"would any of you care to enumerate the differences between past immigration and the current immigration from Mexico?"

OK - contempory immigrants from Mexico learn English faster, absorb American culture via mass media more, mix in mainstream American society more, and move out of the ghetto sooner, than Eye-talians did during the waves of immigration circa 1900.

[fyodor]

Is that the best you can do, Lonewhacko? "But the threat of secession is not merely from groups that might be considered on the fringe, Spencer insists, noting the declarations of Mexican leaders..." Yeah right, the article quotes one fringe group and then more hot-air spewing Mexican leaders and this anti-immigration Spencer. So what? I concur with Mo that it's highly unlikely that Mexicans who have left Mexico are going to want to reunite with Mexico.

That said, anything is possible, and that includes a secessionist movement. But secession is hardly conquest. If Mexicans move here and then contradict themselves by voting to return to Mexican sovereignty, I'd chalk it up to one of the many dumb things wrought by democracy. But it would still be democracy, not conquest. I don't believe in trampling on people's right to movement just because they MIGHT (and highly unlikely at that) vote to do something I would consider very foolish and against my own wishes.

[Lonewacko]

"But secession is hardly conquest. If Mexicans move here and then contradict themselves by voting to return to Mexican sovereignty, I'd chalk it up to one of the many dumb things wrought by democracy."

If you favor giving people the chance to take away part of the U.S. and give it to another country, I believe the "T" word applies.

[matt]

Dismantling the welfare state, thus ending the incentive for unproductive immigrants to come over here, and returning property rights to citizens would go a long way to fixing this so called problem. But I don't see this happening anytime soon....

[L .Acton]

Sorry, Tom Tancredo, but if you're looking to Bush (or most other politicians) not to ignore the destruction of the nation, then you're barking up the wrong trees.

Bush and most other politicians don't give a flying fcuk WHO gets them elected, as long as they do. Their only object is to maintain their power, no matter what.

[Chief]

Me Still Think White Man Fuck Up Planet With Ownership Laws, Borders, One God Religion, and Top 40 Radio. Native Man Live Worse than Mexico Man in United States Country.

[Randal]

Are you the biggest idiot ever?

[fyodor]

So I'm treasonous, eh Lonewacko. Ho-hum, how Ann Coulterish. Am I also treasonous to "give people the chance" to assasinate members of our government by acknowledging their right to bear arms? My point, though it should have been obvious, is that if people end up exercising their rights in ways that I disagree with, that does not in the least diminish their rights. People already have "the chance" to promote secession. Maybe there'd be a greater interest in it if more Mexicans immigrated here, though as Mo and I have pointed out, that's doubtful since they left Mexico to be here. But even if you're right and we're wrong about the likelihood of a secession movement, A) that's still not conquest, and B) it's still an exercise of rights. Hey, maybe we should threaten to jail anyone who speaks in favor of secession -- what, you're against that? How treasonous!!!! I should also point out that secession is probably not possible without the agreement of the rest of the country, and I'm not in the least interested in changing that.

[Gene Berkman]

Perhaps some control over immigration is necessary, because of overpopulation, more than cultural factors. But accurate history is important.
Italian immigrants along with many others did maintain their own newspapers and radio programs.There are still radio stations in Northern California, Chicago & New York with Italian programming.
In the 1920s the Italian government and the Fascist Party did actively recruit support from among Italian Americans - see "Mussolini and Fascism:The View from America" by John Diggins.
There are only a couple of Italian newspapers left in America, but there are about 8 German newspapers throughout the United States, and many other ethnic publications, radio programs and tv stations.
If there is a problem with immigration, it will need someone less emotional than Tom Tancredo to deal with it. But the problem with all our social issues is that only people with a bee under their bonnet spends time dealing with a particular problem, so we always end up with more heat than light.

[Lonewacko]

"People already have "the chance" to promote secession. Maybe there'd be a greater interest in it if more Mexicans immigrated here, though as Mo and I have pointed out, that's doubtful since they left Mexico to be here."

What exactly is this "here" of which you speak? The U.S. of A.? Or, something quite different? Check this out:

Mexican-Americans will have open to them possibilities closed to previous immigrant groups. They will have sufficient coherence and critical mass in a defined region so that, if they choose, they can preserve their distinctive culture indefinitely. They could also eventually undertake to do what no previous immigrant group could have dreamed of doing: challenge the existing cultural, political, legal, commercial, and educational systems to change fundamentally not only the language but also the very institutions in which they do business. They could even precipitate a debate over a "special relationship" with Mexico that would make the controversy over the North American Free Trade Agreement look like a college bull session. In the process, Americans could be pitched into a soul-searching redefinition of fundamental ideas such as the meaning of citizenship and national identity... All prognostications about these possibilities are complicated by another circumstance that has no precedent in American immigration history: the region of Mexican immigrant settlement in the southwestern United States is contiguous with Mexico itself. That proximity may continuously replenish the immigrant community, sustaining its distinctiveness and encouraging its assertiveness. Alternatively, the nearness of Mexico may weaken the community's coherence and limit its political and cultural clout by chronically attenuating its members' permanence in the United States, as the accessibility of the mother country makes for a kind of perpetual repatriation process... The possibility looms that in the next generation or so we will see a kind of Chicano Quebec take shape in the American Southwest...

"Italian immigrants along with many others did maintain their own newspapers and radio programs..."

They certainly did and still do. I was glancing at The Newspaper of the Armenian Diaspora just yesterday. However, the point being made was not that there's an ethnic media, but that it's so large. Given the number of Spanish-language radio and TV stations, the signs etc. printed in Spanish, the Spanish-language web sites, phone messages, operators, government pamphlets, etc. etc. someone who speaks only Spanish isn't really faced with a pressing need to learn English. And, no, not even to open a business. One can fill out Spanish-language government forms, open in a Spanish-speaking area, and deal with almost all Spanish-speaking customers. Could someone who speaks only Italian have done the same? I don't think so, at least without the assistance of an English speaker at points along the way. Bottom line: it's very easy not to assimilate, and that's something we should be concerned about.

"In the 1920s the Italian government and the Fascist Party did actively recruit support from among Italian Americans"
I stand corrected. Foreign governments have tried to turn past immigrants. Perhaps we should learn from that.

[J Canuck]

Who is the idiot? Tancredo? L. Acton? I know who I'd pick, and it isn't Larry (Leo, lonnie, etc.)

[fyodor]

Assertive and distinctive. I'm shittin' my pants now!

[Hovig John Heghinian]

Lonewacko: I'm Armenian. I think I can say with confidence that most people who read (or listen to) the Armenian-language media are (a) fluent in both Armenian and English, (b) over the age of fifty, (c) living outside the USA, or (d) some combination thereof. The advantage to the Armenian language is that an interested Armenian can read or listen no matter where they live, e.g., Armenia, Beirut, France, Germany, Brazil, Argentina, or America.

In my experience with the Armenian community, people do assimilate eventually, even if it takes a couple of generations. It usually takes only a few years to get so accustomed to America that one would never return to the old country, and a generation or two to become so Americanized that the discussion is moot.

Over time, a "second language" becomes less an issue of assimilation than an issue of bonding, i.e., maintaining a common bond with a "brother." But it's not just immigrants who use language to bond with one's ethnic colleagues. There's at least one other large American minority which uses language as an inclusionary-exclusionary tool, despite not being immigrants.

[Jimmy Antley, FellowWacko]

Do not feel so lonely, wacko. I will back you 100% on your immigration posts. There is no use arguing with Joe, though, as he states things like:

"OK - contempory immigrants from Mexico learn English faster, ..." Uh, Joe, how fast is NEVER. Loads of illegal Mexicans in CA, the southwest, and small parts of almost every state in the Union live as if they were in Mexico and no English is spoken. I wonder if you have
ever stepped out of your left-wing pod.

Fyodor makes sense at least, and does not make up stuff in his arguments, and I usually agree with him. Fyodor, a lot of Mexicans did not come to America for a taste of freedom or to be a part of this great experiment. They came cause they can't make squat down Mexico way, cause their economy has been a POS since day one. They are here for the decent jobs (and some for gov't handouts, as was pointed out by other posters). You can't blame them. However, most have no interest in the history of American that brought us the freedoms (you know, the ones we have been giving away year by year since FDR, the f____er).
So, the southwestern US will indeed become a Mexican state, if things continue their present course. Mark my words, you un-wackos!

[Rick Barton]

"There are places right now in East LA & Southern Texas that you would not honestly -- there is absolutely nothing that you would say makes them part of the United States of America."

If this is more true of these places then it has been of other enclaves of recent immigrants, and it may well be, then the welfare state is to blame. It acts as a disincentive both to learning English and to interaction with broader range of Americans. Also, the very existence of welfare programs tend to attract a different type of folks from all ethnic groups then were attracted to come here-sans welfare state.

Now, Tancredo does say some goofy things occasionally, such as sharing his very dubious insight into the aggregate Muslim mind: "... but in their heart when things like 9/11 occur and I'll tell you; it's a majority among them." and also his statement that John Ashcroft "has done a great job". BUT, to his credit, he has voted to roll back and not fund different provisions of the Patriot Act. Also, Tancredo has an excellent (5th best in the entire house!) National Taxpayers Union (NTU) rating which monitors total spending reps. and senators vote for.

[joe]

"One more thing: Joe, most of the immigrants coming here in the past (incl. my ancestors) became Americans. I don't think that's happening anymore in the Southwest, and that's the problem."

Then we agree on something; the fact that people like yourself think that immigrants aren't assimilating is the problem.

"No Italian-American politician would have ever uttered something like "we're going to take over all the political institutions of this state. Anyone who doesn't like it should go back to England." Wanna bet? Haven't done much reading on New York politics, have you?

"At no time have there ever been 20 Italian-language radio stations, 3 or 4 Italian-language TV stations, newspapers, etc. etc. as there are the like number of Spanish language media outlets in L.A. alone." TV and radio weren't invented in the 1880s. There were, however, four competing Finnish language newspapers in Fitchburg, MA, which had a population of less than 40,000 at that time.

"One can fill out Spanish-language government forms, open in a Spanish-speaking area, and deal with almost all Spanish-speaking customers. Could someone who speaks only Italian have done the same? I don't think so, at least without the assistance of an English speaker at points along the way." It was actually much easier to operation a business without speaking English back then, as a neighborhood market in an ethnic neighborhood could prosper on entirely immigrant customers. That is why it happened many thousands of times in large cities all across America.

"I wonder if you have ever stepped out of your left-wing pod." Yes, occasionally I venture into the immigrant-heavy city that is my home and my employer, and encounter the people who are my neighbors - the Latinos, the Africans, the Southeast Asians, etc. Do you ever talk to your neighbors, or does the homeowners association in your lily white suburb forbid it?

[Lonewacko]

"I'm Armenian"

I only brought up that newspaper to show that a) I'm familiar with the ethnic media (including Russian and German-language papers published in the U.S.), and also because I wanted to worm into (the conversation) Miss Karaoke Armenia 2003, as she is featured in the current issue of the newspaper mentioned above.

"Do you ever talk to your neighbors, or does the homeowners association in your lily white suburb forbid it?"

I think we see Joe's problem right there. Praytell Joe, what city do you live in? What type of neighborhood and social, economic, and ethnic composition does it have? FYI, I've lived in L.A. for several years. I was in the area south of Hollywood for the riots, and I've been in the environs east of Hollywood since then.

[fyodor]

Thanks for the props, Jimmy Antley, but I should point out that none of my arguments are based on any sort of interpretation of WHY Mexicans immigrate here. To the extent that it's worth speculating on such, I would largely agree with you, though as I've just intimated, I don't think it matters as it's their own business and it's not germaine to my argument anyway. This kinda reminds me of when conservatives complained that 2 Live Crew didn't give a damn about the 1st Amendment, they were just cursiing up a storm for the money. Well, so what if they were? Rights is rights, and we don't need to have the "correct" motives for exercising our rights to have the *right* to do so.

[David]

Pretty good interview...Tancredo is largely correct.

[s.m. koppelman]

"Tancredo". Tancredo. That sounds Eyetalian to me.

[Josh]

I dunno, when I go to the midwest I think, "This isn't the same country. Who are these people?" In fact, that happens every time I leave NYC. Where did all these tall blonde people come from? They're destroying American culture with all their Applebees and the like. Close the borders!

[Apis]

It will be a sad day for libertarians when Mexico is no longer able to flood the U.S. with its poorest citizens.

[Anonymous]

LA and New York are god-forsaken hell-holes. The midwest is all that's left of the true America.

[D.A. Ridgely]

My family has been having trouble with immigrants ever since we came to this country.

[dhex]

why does true america look like a strip mall?

[Rex Stetson]

I would say that if the majority of the Islamic Community cheers silently inside when things like 9-11 happen, they do it no more than the liberal "blame America first" crowd ( Hollywood Left, Liberal Media) does, and for the same reasons- it reinforces their worldview: that the US is evil and wrong and brings terror attacks on itself- by intervening when it "shouldn't" ( Iraq), and not intervening enough (Rwanda, Somalia, Liberia). There's no pleasing some people. When the US is wrong no matter what they do or don't do- that's the kind of thinking that lends itself to non-falsifiable premises that religions ( and unreasonable ideologies) are based on...

[Madog]

There never has been a true America. Even back during the time most anti-immigrationists think of as when America was "pure", sectionalism made traveling from one part of the country to the other like going to separate countries.

[Jon H]

Lonewacko writes: " However, if Matt goes there he might feel like he's in a foreign country based on the perhaps frosty reception he receives."

I bet there are lots of neighborhoods where blacks and latinos get and have *always* gotten a frosty reception.
And, gosh, those neighborhoods are full of white folks who've been Americans for generations.

Hell, if you walk into a Mennonite or Amish community, you might get a frosty reception. If a Jew wearing a yarmulke walks into certain Christian neighborhoods, he'll probably get a frosty reception.

Sheesh. What's the *real* problem, you don't like the uppity mud people being insufficiently deferential to the white man?

[Chief Sealth]

Me Think White Man Fuck Earth Up!

[Dakota Loomis]

Rex -

Including the Liberal media and Hollywood in this thread was quite impressive. Yeah, I remember all those Liberal media stories about how 9/11 was caused by American values and all the movies that have come out implicitly blaming America for all the worlds evils.

What planet do you live on Rex?

You've been attending too many Young Republican gatherings and listening to the likes of Grover Norquist, Paul Erickson and Ann Coulter. Or perhaps you're just trying to cram unrelated facts into your ill-conceived ideology.

But by all means, keep talking about why the monolythic left hates America and itself. Does the left have mommy issues as well?

[Sandy]

'cuz True America(tm) is as overweight family of four in an SUV eating fast food on their way in between car-accessible stores who complain if asked to walk further than 20 feet.

That being said, it's awfully convenient.

[John]

I think that the US should treat Mexican immigrants the same way the Mexican government treats Central American immigrants.

[Jon H]

I think Mr. Tancredo has never step foot in a chinatown neighborhood.

Or, for that matter, in an Amish community.

Perhaps he ought to hie himself back to Italy.

[Jimmy Antley]

Joe opines:

"Then we agree on something; the fact that people like yourself think that immigrants aren't assimilating is the problem."

Uh, no, the problem is they aren't assimilating. What I think (and about 200,000,000 other Americans) is not anyone's problem, hopefully.

There aren't homeowner's associations out in the country, Joe, but I do get around. Please don't use racist slurs on the sight, either (i.e. lily white - should only be used in such sentences as "you can kiss my lily-white ass, Joseph")

From Jon H:
"Sheesh. What's the *real* problem, you don't like the uppity mud people being insufficiently deferential to the white man?" That's not the real problem. See above about assimilation. Did you not read any of the posts but your own?

[Jimmy Antley]

Hey Fyodor,

Sure, about the Two Live Crue thing and the 1st Amendment. But, that's not analogous with illegal crossings of the US border. It is not a right to cross the border at will, and that's even for US citizens.

Legal immigration is a totally different story. However illegal immigration probably numbers 3 to 5 times as much as legal, but see numbersusa website for the numbers (don't quote me on a factor of 3-5, but it's large). I figured we were talking about illegal immigration.

[Malkin]

?The Mexicans are just trying to get back all the land they lost to the US. In the end, places like "New Mexico" will revert to being just plain old "Mexico" and "Baja California" will go all the way to Oregon. ? Illegal immigration is a means of conquest.?

Sure! Bring ?em on! And say goodbye to the good ol? US of A.

Judging by how well Mexico has developed itself over the years, the ?new Mexican USA? will become a virtual utopia, won?t it? A spitting image of the land south of the border.

Before such horror, however, I wonder what will happen to this kind of people movement when, in the year 2012, the welfare checks and other such handouts simply dry up, because once-generous Americans (true Americans, that is ? by philosophy, not necessarily by ethnicity) have simply become fed up with the camel?s nose rudely inching its way further and further into the patient tent.

[L. Miroir]

?The US should treat Mexican immigrants the same way the Mexican government treats Central American immigrants.?

Amen, John! (Well spoken.)

[Ken]

The Mexicans are just trying to get back all the land they lost to the US. In the end, places like "New Mexico" will revert to being just plain old "Mexico" and "Baja California" will go all the way to Oregon.

Maybe someone else has the links to the Mexican political speeches that plainly state that illegal immigration is a means of conquest?

[Unassimilated Illegal Mexican]

Yo quero Taco Bell!

[the operator]

This is an American site, Unassimilite! You're supposed to:

- Press 1 for English
- Press 2 for French (and only then)
- Press 3 for Spanglish (wazzat?)

[Keith]

LW: "If you favor giving people the chance to take away part of the U.S. and give it to another country, I believe the "T" word applies."

Strong words. Do you apply the "T" word to Minnesota Congressman Colin Peterson for proposing to Congress in 1997-98 that the "Northwest Angle" of Minnesota be allowed to secede and merge with Canada? I'd say this is the rule of law, at work in the republic.

How would it be different if, under any circumstance any future member of Congress proposed similar for an area in the southwest? Even if an agitated Chicano movement lays the groundwork and gets a suggestible SoCal dingbat into the house. Barring electoral fraud, if a duly elected member of Congress, in their professional opinion as the representative of their district determines that it is the right decision and proposes it before congress, I disagree with your characterization.

[pocahontas]

The "Mexicans" who seem to have it so tough down there are actually the offspring of the cruel Cortez and his henchmen, and this is the nemesis for the horrors they committed to the poor Aztecs.

"The sins of the fathers ..."

[Jim Walsh]

Funny how it's always East L.A. or lower Texas and not, say, the community of illegal *Irish* immigrants living on Long Island...if, that is, it really is about immigration and not about race...

[shrugger]

It should be noted (although the already-depressed are advised to ignore this) that Tancredo used to be head of the quasi-libertarian Independence Institute, which is Colorado's representative institution in the State Policy Network. Look it up.

[Rex Stetson]

Dakota:
Point taken. Perhaps I was unfairly generalizing in Right-Wing shorthand reminiscent of Ann Coulter rants. But I merely meant to suggest that there is a large segment of non-islamic, "western" culture that blames U.S. foreign policy; i.e, "the root causes of terrorism" for terrorist reprisals. This can be seen in European press as well as in the American "left", post 9-11. While I don't share this view, I certainly respect the right of critics of U.S. foreign policy to their opinion. I seriously doubt I am the *only* one who has ever heard this idea expressed ( that US foreign policy provokes terrorism)- if so, then I must be on some other planet or have a very ill-conceived ideology, as you suggest, and I will definitely rethink it.

[fyodor]

Rex Stetson,

For what it's worth, I understood your (original) post to mean that immigrants who to some degree blame America for 9/11 are no more nefarious than US-born and bred leftists who think the same thing. They may be full of it, but that doesn't mean they're dangerous or have any less right to live here than anyone else. Read you right? And regardless of whether any famous leftists have overtly written such an idea (Chomsky seems to imply it but then slitheringly denies actually meaning it), I have leftist friends who have said it quite unapologetically (good thing they think I'm a leftist too!).

Ken,

Do you always automatically believe whatever politicians say? Or only when it coincides with what you want to hear? Until someone can show the *mechanism* by which the immigration of Mexicans into the US can become "conquest" by the state of Mexico over US sovereignty, I suggest we dismiss such commentary as the hot air of pandering politicians that it obviously is. And don't tell me that foreign influence amounts to "conquest" cause it ain't!

[Croesus]

The historical track record of nativists in the US is a fairly poor one; in fact, I cannot think of a nativist prediction that has ever been proven correct.

[Anonymous]

That bastion of the left, Pat Robertson, thought America earned 9-11. I'd like to drop-kick that moron.

I had already wanted to drop-kick Tancredo:
http://www.newsandservices.com/jesusapodaca.html

[Ikram Saeeed]

How did Ohio become the typical America. I think the American heartland is NYC, or maybe LA. And what I see on your TV channels bears this out.

Why does Tancrdeo get to define what America is? Is there much of a difference between a Hate America (Ohio only division) nad Tancredo's Hate America (Muslims and Hispanic only division).

[Lonewacko]

"How would it be different if, under any circumstance any future member of Congress proposed similar for an area in the southwest?"

I'm not going to even bother looking the northwest angle up on a map. But, one NPR page says he forgot to ask the local Indian band to whom portions of the angle were given. Which is similar to, for instance, the statement by Gil Cedillo that illegal aliens "were here first." In fact, the Gabrielino, Chumash, and many other tribes were in CA well before the Spaniards or the Mexicans, and they are not directly related to the Aztecs.

In any case, the "T" word would apply not so much to the attempt for the angle to secede, but how they were brought to that point. If 25 million Californians wanted to secede tomorrow, that's one thing. However, if the plan is to bring in secession-friendly people in order to encourage secession at some future point or otherwise set things up so secession is possible, that's when we can use the "T."

[Croesus]

Mexicans have been fairly fast at assimilating; which is of course why they agitate to go to American colleges.

[Eric the Red]

In fact, the forebearers of the Chumash came to California via (what is now) Oregon, Washington, Canada and Alaska, when the people before them crossed the (frozen solid) Bering Strait.

So if anyone needs to secede, it should be the Mongolians and the Chinese.

(Getting to be ridiculous enough for ya?)

[Chiraque]

What about the French, Croesus? have they ass
imilated yet?

[Eric Pobirs]

Matt, one of the things I've noticed in recent years is the appearance of new shanytowns of a sort usually associated with Steinbeck novels. The distinguishing factors are modern campers and the occaisonal house trailer defining the local upper class. If you were drugged unconscious and left to wake up alone in one of these places you might easily think you were well south of San Ysidro.

[joe]

Not real interested in sharing my personals, Wacko.

Listen, some of the points you raise are legitimate, especially in regards to the unfriendly behavior of some Mexican politicians. But when you marinate everything in your own particular recipe of Anglo-Saxon kulturkamph, it doesn't exactly foster trust or legitimacy.

[joe]

er, kampf