How Bright are You?

Richard Dawkins has some meandering thoughts on religion, which strike me as equal parts insightful (the gross distortion involved in referring to a "Catholic child" or a "Muslim child") and silly (redubbing atheists "brights," mimicing the homosexual appropriation of "gay").

Comments

[SM]

"The promises of an afterlife can be used to create destruction or prevent it. Is atheism less an agent of nihilism than religion? "

Maybe. But in that particular article, which incidentally, i read when it came out, he pretty accurately describes some of the root causes of 9-11. And he did it at a time when people were going on and on about how "religion is peace" etc.
Thank God for Richard Dawkins.

[N]

You folks are missing the point: this "bright" thing is just a way of testing the meme theory of idea propagation. They know the source, and they have all the tools (thanks to modern technology) to track the spread of the term, making this an ideal scenario for lazy scientists.

[Julian]

Yeah, but it's such a dumb meme I rather doubt it'll catch on.

[Tibor]

Nick, you say your wife considers herself to be "culturally Catholic." What is that?

What is different in the behavior of a ?culturally Catholic? person as compared to that of a "non-culturally Catholic" person?

[R.Bach]

Lone Angel, one can say essentially the same thing about PHILOSOPHY, yet we don't hear any such adversarial commentaries heaped upon that system of inquiry, do we?

To wit:

"You'd have to educate them early. Teach them a complete and self-consistent philosophy. Give them several books by different thinkers and ask them to study them. It?s called ?philosophy? and, for reasons which one day we may understand, most people come to adopt a personal one of their own. Now all we need is to get some of them to come to some private airport so they can give themselves flying lessons, and so they can see the majesty of the planet on which they live."

[N]

Let's not equate the personal "philosophies" of half-educated dim-wits to the philosophy that was done by the greatest thinkers on the planet. Philosophy as a discipline is an adjunct of science, designed to delineate the nature of problems and answer those that it can.

[R.Bach]

N, I am not making THAT equation. My larger point was that an individual could discover personal meaning for himself, by routes other than religion.

In other words, we don't hear philosophy being bashed this way, precisely BECAUSE it is a more sensible path to take. (At least in my opinion it is.)

Sorry I wasn?t clear about that. I try to keep my posts short.

[Nicholas Weininger]

Tibor: that's a good question. Part of it is having a set of cultural referents that come from going through the church rituals-- e.g. comments and jokes about what one intends to give up for Lent. Part of it is a set of attitudes about self-denial and guilt and family obligations.

I know that's vague, and I apologize. Not having grown up Catholic myself, I am leery of going on too long about it and ending up talking out of my ass.

[joe]

Comparing belonging to a religious group with belonging to a political party is misleading. My identity as a Catholic has nothing to do with having opinions; in fact, my opinions about a number of moral and theological issues are different from those of the heirarchy. This guy just doesn't get it.

[D Anghelone]

Luminoso Sanchez has a ring to it. Combines attributes and hints of the desperado.

Don Dawkins says naught of "atheist child" or of that moral agent stuff regarding children. Hasn't he voiced some bright opinions regarding the latter?

Mimicking - icky but bright.

[Tibor]

Nick, you cracked me up (excuse the pun.) My wife in the other room, asked me what I was laughing about so loudly. Your last sentence is a riot.

But I get what you're saying: By "Catholic culture," you mean using the shibboleths, in-jokes, and general mannerisms than go along with being part of such a group, jah? As in, being part of the "office culture," or the "hospital culture," or the "footbal culture," jah?

[Julian]

First, there's something to Joe's point-- if a child is raised going through the various rituals and exposed to the relevant culture, then it might make sense to call her "Catholic," at least in some attenuated sense, even before she forms any of the relevant beliefs. But it's just contrianism for its own sake, a boring enterprise if ever there was one, to pretend that religious identity has NOTHING to do with opinions. Whatever your background, it's more than a little bizarre to say, for example, that you're a Christian who doesn't believe Jesus existed, or a Muslim who doesn't believe in God.

Dom- that's a fair enough point, although actually it may be slightly different in the atheist case. I'd apply "atheist" to anyone who doesn't affirm the existence of God, including someone who has never encountered the concept. So there's a sense in which we're all born atheists.

[D Anghelone]

Dawkins is given to presumption and religion obsession. His take on 9/11:

"Would they fall for it? Yes, testosterone-sodden young men too unattractive to get a woman in this world might be desperate enough to go for 72 private virgins in the next.

It's a tall story, but worth a try. You'd have to get them young, though. Feed them a complete and self-consistent background mythology to make the big lie sound plausible when it comes. Give them a holy book and make them learn it by heart. Do you know, I really think it might work. As luck would have it, we have just the thing to hand: a ready-made system of mind-control which has been honed over centuries, handed down through generations. Millions of people have been brought up in it. It is called religion and, for reasons which one day we may understand, most people fall for it (nowhere more so than America itself, though the irony passes unnoticed). Now all we need is to round up a few of these faith-heads and give them flying lessons."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,552388,00.html

The promises of an afterlife can be used to create destruction or prevent it. Is atheism less an agent of nihilism than religion?

I'm not religious and never have been. But I think it as foolish for atheists to find their Satan in religion as it is for libertarians to find theirs in government.

[Nicholas Weininger]

To broaden Joe's point, I'd say that religion and ethnocultural identity are very often intertwined and go by the same names. There are lots and lots of people of Jewish ancestry (myself included) who subscribe to no Jewish religious doctrine whatsoever, yet still consider themselves culturally Jewish. A child from this sort of cultural background may rightfully be called a Jewish child without imputing a particular religious belief to them.

Catholicism is also deeply connected to culture, if not quite as deeply as Judaism. My wife's parents are Catholics; she has long since rejected most Catholic doctrine but still considers herself, in a very real sense, culturally Catholic. She was a Catholic child, for sure.

Political identities are less commonly associated with culture, but are not totally free of such association. It would not be incorrect, I think, to describe a red-diaper baby like David Horowitz as having been a Communist child. So when Dawkins says "you wouldn't describe someone as a Tory or New Labour child, would you?", I think he may inadvertently be arguing the opposite of what he thinks he's arguing. I'm a pretty militant atheist and I generally appreciate Dawkins' anti-evangelistic efforts, but IMHO this is one of his weaker pieces.

[P Herzberg]

"I think it as foolish for atheists to find their Satan in religion as it is for libertarians to find theirs in government"

Atheists believe there is no God (god, gods, whatever). Apart from that their attitude to, and opinions on, religion vary as much any Theist's might.

It's foolish to believe otherwise.

[Nicholas Weininger]

Yes, that is what I mean. Maybe the next time I express it I can do so more succinctly and without unintended double entendres... (sigh)

[Steve Pochadt]

Well, in this case, I would like to counter by coining a new noun for theists: Right. I am a Right, the Pope is a Right, Al Sharpton, Billy Graham, America's priests, ministers, and rabbis are all Rights.