Hot for Teacher Pay

A new study, available online, finds that public school teachers are paid pretty damn well when compensation is broken down into hourly rates. According to Michael Podgursky, a Univ. of Missouri economist, when you break down teacher salaries that way, K-12 teachers are pulling about $30.50 an hour, which compares favorably to public-sector engineers ($27.71), ) and accountants ($22.08), among others. Then there's fringe benefits, ranging from near total job security and summers off (with the chance to pick up extra dough for teaching summer school to boot).

Read a summary of the report in USA Today and check out the whole box of rocks at Hoover Institution's Education Next site.

And then tell a teacher friend to do the same.

Comments

[JDM]

I would think that issue number one for anyone serious about libertarianism would be the state's wasting of the childhoods of its citizens on mandatory brainwashing.

[DC]

Do the papers grade themselves? No, and most teachers do not teach the entire 7-8 hour school day. They often get prep periods during which they grade papers.

Rarely - perhaps less than 6 times in 15 years - have I seen my dad bring home papers to grade from his job as a middle school public school teacher. He's been a public school teacher for 35 years and is, at least if you believe the couple of teaching awards he has won, good at his job. So he's probably not unrepresentative.

Yes, beginning teachers do have to do a good deal of prep work and that probably spills over into after-work time (although, as Nick said, it's not as if other professionals don't do the same). But often teachers who have been around for 5-10 years or more teach the same material over and over, so that there's virtually no out-of-class prep.

Most teachers aren't wealthy, but they aren't poor and they work considerably fewer hours than most professional lawyers or doctors or accountants.

They also get pretty sweet pension plans - if they aren't a member of the Washington, DC union, at least. My dad will retire in two years and earn 92% of 75,000 for the rest of his and my mother's lives plus social security plus whatever he has put away in private savings.

[Xmas]

If I was doing a study like this, I would compare Teaching to Nursing. Both trades require specialized schooling. Both require a certain amount of educational upkeep. Both require a caring touch and an ability to think.

However, nurses get paid overtime, teachers don't, while nurses are slaves to heartless bureaucracies and teachers...umm...hold that thought. 🙂

As for the "summer's off" theory. Most teachers spend the summer coming up with lesson plans for the next year and going to classes to keep up their certifications.

[david f]

okay. teachers and nurses work hard. so does everybody (except some pro baseball players and pro golfers. don't get me started on those lucky bastards on the PBA...)

how does that compare with the 50-60 hours the rest of us work in corporate america over the summers?

and the alpha and omega of this argument:
A) get rid of public education
Z) teachers have it tougher, because they're around kids. and the kids' parents. with the hysterical bullshit that makes for all sorts of allergies, words they don't want their kids to hear, always correct math problems, no battleball, and general "my kid does no wrong".

cheers all!
drf

[Phil]

"A $300,000 home in one neighborhood can be almost 100% identical to a $150,000 home in another neighborhood just a few miles away. The number one driver of these differences is the quality of public schools."

Usually it's exactly the reverse. Or, in any case, the relationship between property values and public school quality is a more complicated one than you posit, based on a feedback loop. When schools are funded based on the property tax assessments of the community, low-valued property leads to poorly funded schools, which leads to lower quality, which leads to people moving away, which leads to . . .

[Seth D. Michaels]

There are a lot of issues intersecting here, but the one that leaps to mind for me is the fact that I make a whopping $10.35 an hour as a journalist.

That said, my job is waaaaay easier and much less important than a teacher's.

[Robert Nabors]

Heh...

I'm in University to be a teacher. Going for my B.S.E. of Secondary Education in English and Social Science (Covers History, Sociology, Psychology, Geography, etc).

Wanted to go to the UK - their teaching students get several thousand ?'s in bursuries not to mention, if your family is poor (like mine), tuition in all public universities is free! But free stuff and bursuries only for EU and EEA 🙁

So, I'm here, in Alabama... trying to become a teacher... there's some good and some bad. The politics of the job are utterly rediculous. Those are the real reasons you don't learn in school - so many things are verbotten based on who "might" take offense - not even the simple things, like religion.. but the crazy stuff no one things about... like, California rejected the use of "The Little Engine Who Could" because the engine was male. A national testing company rejected the usage of a passage that told of a blind man's effort and triumph in climbing Mt. McKindly, the highest mountain in North America. Why, you might ask? Because it implies that being blind is a disadvantage. And we all know about the moral majorities crusade to classify everything that isn't a religion into "secular humanism" and demand that their particular brand of christianity get equal time as "secular humanism" (read: everything that isn't religion).

Today, unfortunatly, radical fem-nazi's and xenophobic moral crusaders work arm in arm to turn "education" into the secondary objective, to make room for their social training, hoping that with the scholastic elimination of "bad thoughts" then those things will not happen. It has gotten to the point where accuracy takes a second seat to other concerns.

Anywho, the pay is ok. Not the best in the world, not the worst in the world.

-Robert

[Lazarus]

>>That said, my job is waaaaay easier and much less important than a teacher's.

[Morat]

I can only wonder what strange world most of you inhabit. As half my family is involved in public education to one extent or another (teaching, administration, even secretaries) and a product of public schools, I can only conclude that either the local school districts are completely unrepresentative of the public education system, or most of you are smoking crack.

Since I'm feeling charitable, I'll go off and argue about exporting our local way of doing things.

[Dakota Loomis]

Back to the actual study:

The Hoover Institue is the antithesis of everything the ATF stands for, so it's not surprising that both groups particpate in manipulating their figures to promote their own social or political agendas. I think the truth falls some place between the claims made by these biased sources.

Additionally, all the talk about not including ansillary benefits is somewhat misleading because a number of states calculate health care, extra duty pay (summer school, after school) or pension pay-ins into their teacher's average salary, just not in a uniform way across states. Therefore, when you look at California, a state that is second in the nation in compensating teachers, you must also note that California INCLUDES pension pay-ins and extra duty pay. Pensions of 300,000 teachers makes for a shitload of cash that many people ignorantly or willfully ignore when discussing why teacher's make TOO much.

Additionally, 6 of the 7 largest states sit in the top 26 states (with 4 in the top 10) skewing the results upward. Teachers in state's such as Arkansas, Oklahoma, and basically any non-coastal, Republican leaning state are consistently screwed. There's historical precedent involved (think Home on the Prairie) as well as lower costs of living and education value standards that apply to the interior.

Still, the real problem is not compensation, but compensation methods. When it is impossible to track teacher performance (most accountability measures target schools or students, but not teachers) relying upon service years and degrees held is often the only, poor barometer a system can use to determine compensation. Until someone addresses the actual performance of teachers and attaches pay more closely to ability, the amount teachers receive is a secondary issue.

I think I rambled, but here's the ATF study if you're interested:

http://www.aft.org/research/survey01/tables.html

[digamma]

"Schools should have the right to remove children that don't want to learn or disrupt the learning of other children."

I've got an even easier idea: school enrollment shouldn't be mandatory. Only parents who care will send their kids to school - where they won't be bulled by the kids of parents who don't.

[fredH]

Dakota:

If educational standards are lower in the non-coastal states, why does the upper midwest (ND,SD, IA, MN) consistantly register the highest SAT scores?

[Tom]

FredH,

If I may voice another heresy, the upper midwest states score so well on the SAT (honestly, no real guage of anything other than the ability to take a lengthy, standardized test) because the majority of their students are white.

Having taught part-time at our local Texas high school, I must say from experience that the great majority of black students have no interest in education. The Hispanic students, if the language barrier can be overcome, can be taught and motivated, but too many of them would rather work (and work damn hard at) two or three labor jobs than crack the books for a single comparable-pay white collar career.

There is a work ethic among Hispanics that, were it to be properly harnessed, would rattle even the Asians' cages. Blacks, on the other hand, are by and large a hopeless case unless a genuine tectonic plate-shift in their mindset occurs.

Ask any high school teacher who will give you an honest answer, and they will admit that the infatuation with hip-hop culture among the wiggas and wangstas is even leading to the dumbing down of Dick and Jane.

[cinquo]

tom, i really wish you would speak of cultures instead of skin color. you do seem to grasp this with your comment on hip-hop. saying that there is an inferior african-american subculture ("ghetto culture") is politically incorrect, but it isn't racist (though the unthinking leftarians will probably accuse of being one).

[Mike E]

If the wacko left has its way with education, teachers will be working even less in the near future.

All the theorists want teachers to 'step aside' and let the students run the class. They will know what is important for them to learn, and not to. I swear, this was a position taken by my Secondary Ed Methods prof.

We are too comfortable with the "sage on the stage" of teaching, we are told. We need to move off the stage and let students take over. This will, our loony left professors tell us, encourage the 'less inclined' to feel a part of the process.

Grades? Way overrated, they tell us. Self -esteem is the goal today.

That's what's wrong with education today. Don't take out your frustrations on those of us who are trying our best. Quit electing idiots to your local school boards.

[Morat]

When it comes to "Which States Score Highest on SAT's", you also have another variable to keep in mind: What percentage of high school seniors actually take the SATs in that state?

It's far from uniform.

[Tom]

Cinquo,

I stand corrected and properly chastised. Here in east Texas there is an honest (if dying) pull-you-own-ass-out-of-the-mud-and-get-ahead philosophy among rural blacks, who value hard work in this generation so that the next will have a better life. It is still apparent among some young black ladies (disparaged by some of their male peers as "church girls"). I had the joy of having young women like this in several classes, eager to discuss their college and career plans and already carrying themselves with an admirable professionalism (think of a 17-year-old Connie Rice).

Young black men with this outlook on life, however, seem to be pushed into the circles of white youths with similar views and thereby shunned by the gangsta crowd. I had one young man in a class who only with much hesitance admitted that he liked playing chess for the mental challenges it offered.

I admit to using too broad a brush earlier, but until there is a widespread rejection of the thuggishness and sluttishness of the big pimpin' hip-hop life, there is no hope for this generation of Black youth, nor for the white youth who mimic them.

[Tommy_Grand]

"All the theorists want teachers to 'step aside' and let the students run the class. They will know what is important for them to learn, and not to. I swear, this was a position taken by my Secondary Ed Methods prof."

If most PS teachers are good at teaching, this is a silly idea. But if most public school teachers are terrible teachers, this situation might be an improvement. Sadly, I see more evidence for the latter proposition. Of course, I havent set foot in a school in more than a decade and only know what I read in the papers...

[Tom]

MIke E.

"Quit electing idiots to your local school boards."

In my days as a suburban newspaper reporter, school boards marched in lock-step in whichever direction the administrator told them. In one district, it was well known fact that you could not be elected to the board without the blessings of the superintendent, who would with no small dose of threat get out the district vote (teachers, secretaries, bus drivers, etc.) on election day to defeat anyone he deemed unsuitable for the board. As school board elections generally drew about 2,000 voters, the 800 or so district employees who wanted to keep their jobs were there on Saturday morning to cast their ballots for the candidates "who would be good for the district."

In this same case, before each board vote (on whatever the issue) the board would ask the super for his opinion, and would then dutifully vote the way he wanted. In the five years I covered the board (until this particular super fell victim to the Big C) I never once saw a vote, be it on student discipline policies or what kind of weed whackers to buy for the groundskeepers, that wasn't what the super wanted. This super also would never meet directly with either the press or parents, doing all his busines through his two assistants, like him both former basketball coaches.

Maybe our problems are not with the school boards we elect, but the people who supposedly work for them (and us).

[Tommy_Grand]

This is what I read in the papers:

From today's Houston Chronicle:

"Only 36 percent of Houston's 10th graders passed the entire Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills test...Houston Independent School District superintendent Kaye Stripling, releasing the scores today, acknowledged that much improvement is needed in math and science, but said HISD did better than expected."

[John Henry]

I got my masters in personel administration and in operations management in 1979. I've been teaching, as an adjunct at the graduate level since 1982. Two years ago I went and got an MS in Education, graduating last week. I have also been married to a high school teacher since 1974.

In other words, I have a bit of familiarity with the field of teaching.

Someone said that schools should be burned down and teachers put in productive jobs. I more or less agree. I went into my education degree thinking that schools were pretty bad. I now, after seeing and studying how teachers are trained, think that they are doing a terrific job, considering. Teacher training is pretty much useless, consisting mostly of feel-good stuff and as far as I can see, almost completely content free. It really amazes me that schools in the US are not even worse than they are.

My HS teacher wife works from 8:00AM to 3:30PM with an hour for lunch. She also has at least 1 free operiod for grading papers etc. In other words, she works 6-1/2 hours a day and except for rare occasions, has no need to bring any work home.

The school year is 180 days long. She probably works 185 days per year so do the math. She actually puts in about 1200 hours per year. A normal 40 hour a week worker, getting 2 weeks vacation plus 10 holidays, will put in 1,920 hours per year.

I hear all the time how much time teachers spend working at home, but I tend to disbelieve it.

Education is too important to leave in the hands of educators.

[John Henry]

I got my masters in personel administration and in operations management in 1979. I've been teaching, as an adjunct at the graduate level since 1982. Two years ago I went and got an MS in Education, graduating last week. I have also been married to a high school teacher since 1974.

In other words, I have a bit of familiarity with the field of teaching.

Someone said that schools should be burned down and teachers put in productive jobs. I more or less agree. I went into my education degree thinking that schools were pretty bad. I now, after seeing and studying how teachers are trained, think that they are doing a terrific job, considering. Teacher training is pretty much useless, consisting mostly of feel-good stuff and as far as I can see, almost completely content free. It really amazes me that schools in the US are not even worse than they are.

My HS teacher wife works from 8:00AM to 3:30PM with an hour for lunch. She also has at least 1 free operiod for grading papers etc. In other words, she works 6-1/2 hours a day and except for rare occasions, has no need to bring any work home.

The school year is 180 days long. She probably works 185 days per year so do the math. She actually puts in about 1200 hours per year. A normal 40 hour a week worker, getting 2 weeks vacation plus 10 holidays, will put in 1,920 hours per year.

I hear all the time how much time teachers spend working at home, but I tend to disbelieve it.

Education is too important to leave in the hands of educators.

[david f]

cinquo and tom:

excellent and informative comments by both, and your exchanges prompt the natural question of whether "ebonics" or "black english" or "ghetto english" (or whatever that Dialect would be called these days) is still on the docket to be taught in schools?

also, kudos for discussing ethnicity/culture and how public education doesn't hit the mark with certain cultures -- this is a tough one, where people scream "racism" real quick. nice job both for not doing such!!!

a few years ago there was talk about having "Ebonics" classified as a "foreign language" in, what, SF schools. does anybody remember that?

anyhow, Cinquo, what you noted is consistent with what my mom noted who was on a parent group in the cleveland schools in the 60s. one person suggested that "ghetto english" be taught so not to force standard english on the Black students. my mom objected, citing one linguistic variant is completely appropriate in social situations, while another variant, the standard, is more appropriate to schools. when she asked the Green Liberal if he would prefer Hebrew or Jiddish be taught to his children, the gentleman indignantly replied, "No, madam. i do not want my children to be second-class citizens".

the paternalistic left couldn't hide their motives even back then. (a friend of mine in Macon GA has her students speak "money english" in class -- and that's received very postively)

thanks, all!

respectfully,
drf

[Plutarck]

Tom:

About the black ghetto subculture, I think you might enjoy this article, and this entire site:
http://www.fredoneverything.net

And the article: The Two Cultures - In Which Fred Endeavors To Get Himself Lynched
http://www.fredoneverything.net/TwoCultures.shtml

As to the quality of school, as many people I simply think about my own personal experience. I went to a private christian school until about 7th grade. I never thought much good of it, and rather suddenly grew to hate it about that time - perhaps more than anything I just grew entirely fed up with my 'peers', and had little else to make me want to stay - so I, effectively, dropped out.

We were going to homeschool, and often bought text books from the luny fanatic christian schools (which at least supposedly have good curricula) and occassionally dodged and ignored the occassional letter from the state early on and such...but effectively 7th grade was my last year in 'school'.

Every bit of learning past that was due entirely due to my own interest, and I cannot think of a single bit of being pushed into doing something "educational". I just watched what I wanted - which for much of the time was a huge contingent of TV - and read what I wanted, and did what I wanted, which was pretty much sitting around the house and usually performed my favorite (then and now) activity: thinking. No "education" in any classical sense of someone directing or managing me.

Flash forward to 18 years of age (rather recently), and my dad mentioned and a bit pushed the idea of the GED (he understandably wanted me to have a high school diploma, and wanted - and thought I would want and enjoy - taking some college classes that interested me). So I bought a few books on preparing, and effectively read a couple of pages worth - a few hours of 'studying' if you could really call it that, and then proceeded to take the test. I took no classes at all, and went straight for the certification - which they really, really don't like or want, but no choice was given them.

For those that do not know, the GED is not somehow a second rate diploma, at least in Florida. According to my materials when I took it, the GED is intentionally weighted such that when they have high school graduates of each year take it, some one in three graduates will FAIL the GED.

Well, I finished some 3-5 hours earlier than required (it's a two day test, including an essay), without rushing, and left before anyone else - to my knowledge - was near done. Upon receiving my grades in the mail I learned I was in the >92% percentile of those who took the test in some subjects, >95% in others, and in the upper 80 percentile in Math (which in school I was always worst at of all subjects, and according to the SATs always one semester behind in - I still ranked in the 98th percentile of all those that took the test, as I was "post high school" in almost all other subjects tested).

I then went on the same year to take a college entrance exam at a local 2-year college (junior college - effectively the only way to get into a university in town, as they generally just require you have an Associates degree already, or close to it), and qualified for honor's classes, to the surprise of my parents (though not, so much, to myself - though I was surprised at how well I did in math).

So here is what I conclude from all this:

Intelligent people who love learning have approximately NO Place -whatsoever- in a school, public or private, save perhaps those that are specially designed for such people. You could have a smart kid sit in a closet for 8 hours a day and call it "school" and he would be no worse for the ware than he would be if he were in whatever passes for a school now adays. Fact is, school just isn't designed for such people, can't cater to them, and usually just can't handle them without damaging them to some extent.

I further learned that all the supposed "Math" I hated in school and wasn't very good at...well, wasn't. They didn't teach Math, so much as they taught how humans can be very low quality versions of a calculator. It has to tell you something when years of effort goes toward learning how to do something a machine can do infinately better than a human, and with complete accuracy. Yet now I learn of things like Algebra and Calculus and Statistics, where computational machines are highly desirable assistants, but cannot do much of anything desirable to be done on their own. And you know what? I like them. I think they are fascinating, and increasingly I see how useful they can be in so many ways, and I yearn to understand that which seems can only be fully understood through the language of mathematics. So now I'm trying to catch up in that area, and to compensate for and purge all the bad influence of school and culture as they regard math.

Further, from my limited experience in college (2 classes a semester for 2 semesters, registering a rather easy - as in mental effort, not so much as in time spent - 4.0 in all 4 classes as far)...eh, it is alot better than the school I remember...but not much. It seems like everything is designed to force people to learn, including the attitudes of the teacher. In Economics class I was the only person that asked questions, and seemingly the only person who cared whatsoever...and the Professor seemed only surprised that even _I_ was actually interested in it, instead of just him being the only one that cared about any issue or subject addressed in class. All of which is simply antithetical to those who don't want to be FORCED to learn - they want to learn because they want to learn, and treating them like they are idiots or uninterested just harms there ability to enjoy the experience or learn much at all.

After just two semesters, while I would have taken a class or two this summer if I could get any I wanted at the times I wanted (I prefer to only go twice a week), I'm begining to fear the whole thing will just end up damaging me with it's creeping and constant Teach To The Test, Teach To The Grade, Perform For The Grade mentality. It scares me to think it might be able to get in my head and deprive me of the part of me I am most proud of and value most highly - that I read and think and learn because I myself, entirely of my own volition, choose to and desire to.

This effect I first began to notice in English Composition, of all things, through writing essays. The way to succeed is really quite simple - pick a subject which is easy, but not obviously and monotonously so. Eschew that which is really interesting and intriguing, because it is so very difficult to deal with it in any way comprehensively, which will lead to a lower grade. Also eschew the controversial, for it brings with it a higher difficulty as so much more must be addressed, and you'll either have to work many times harder for the same damn grade, or just pick an easy subject you can crank out rather easily and get...the same grade! One is vastly better than the other, but of course there is no grade higher than an A - so why bother at all? Your success is capped and easily attained with a wiser choice of things to attempt, so you might as well just take the easy way out.

Well, I don't like that. I don't like that at all. And I sure as hell don't want to think like that in my every day life. Like nearly everyone else I know, I just want the damn certification; the 'education' isn't, and it isn't typically much useful, so I just want the damn certification, which is useful, and then just handle the damn education myself. To paraphrase a line from Good Will Hunting, "You spent thousands of dollars of your parents money and years of your life to get what you could have gotten with $2.45 in late fees from the library."

Now if I can just find a good way to socialize with good, personable people similar to me I'd have everything I want, save the certification...which I haven't yet figured out how to get without the unproductive inefficient laboring that is "for no good reason whatsoever".

So much for what should be the respite for the intellectual, the cradle of learning and advancement for a civilization. How it is all so very, very depressing.

[joe]

What a load of crap. Do you think those papers grade themselves?

[Jon H]

I think they *seriously* underweight the amount of work done at home.

They say that it's a plus that they can do work at home, as if teachers were doing the work at home in lieu of work at a jobsite, but it's *in addition* to work at a jobsite - by their reckoning, 38 hours a week on-site.

They talk as if teachers spent 20 hours in class, and 20 hours at home with their kids. Instead, it's more like 38 hours in class and another 20 hours while at home.

This report is a crock.

[Frenk]

Gotta agree with Joe... the study only measures "time in the school." Obviously, most teachers need to correct papers, review, prepare, etc. in the evening. The idea that a salary of 30-40,000 / yr. is out of line for a teacher is, IMNHO, bunk.

[Nick Gillespie]

Coupla things: First, nobody is saying that teachers are overpaid. Rather, they're paid pretty well when everything is tallied up and put in a more realistic comparison. Second, no papers don't grade themselves. But there's always a presumption that doctors, lawyers, and Indian chiefs only work 40-hour weeks, as if most professionals--the vague group that teachers claim to be part of--are working 9-5 jobs. There's also a huge difference between being in a bjob with tenure (which most public school teachers get at the start of their third or fourth year) and not.

It would be interesting to see a breakdown of annual income for teachers--virtually every one I know makes extra income during the summer months, so that quoting their average contract salaries seriously underestimates their income.

[Jon H]

Nick,

doctors and lawyers make rather a *bit* more than teachers do.

I don't know about indian chiefs...

Other fields, I think, tend to compensate for the expectation of frequent > 40 hour workweeks by an increase in pay.

Is there another unionized public workforce that works > 40 hours a week without demanding overtime?

[Jon H]

Assuming 50 hours a week, based on the figures provided by the Philly teacher in the USA Today article (7 hours at school, 3 hours at hom), and 2 months off for summer, I get an hourly equivalent of $19.96.

Assuming 3 months off for summer, which is a bit high I think (except maybe in Oregon!) it's $21.something.

Yeah, in number terms it's about the same as an accountant. But I'd guess most accountants don't work 10 hour days except maybe during tax season, and wouldn't want to work those hours, for that pay, for 9 months of the year.

[cinquo]

i am glad you want your kids educated by a "unionized public workforce" with the work ethics of garbagemen and construction workers instead of professionals. when i started out as a PROFESSIONAL i worked for $25/year for 60 hours a week - and yes that was for 12 MONTHS of work.

these lazy garbagemen-teachers have three months in the sun to whine about their 50 hour work week. somehow i still manage to see the teachs out on the golf course at 4 pm every day.

yeah work ethic of a street sweeper, cozy middle class living, never get fired, vote for raises every two years, only work half the year -- these teaches are real pariahs! oh and what a wonderful produty they put out - our youth has never been so informed and educated...

bah!

[cinquo]

produty = product

[Brad S]

Two comments sum things up here:

1. Many in the media would have us believe that teachers are so poorly paid that they can't even afford to keep a roof over their heads or food on their tables. The truth is, teachers aren't really paid that badly. They're not getting rich, but they're also not starving, and they do enjoy a few perks (job security, summers off, etc).

2. On the other hand, when one takes into account how significant a role teachers have in shaping our future generations, one could easily argue that teachers are not paid well considering what their work is truly, intrinsically worth. Especially in public schools, there is no way that a good teacher is able to earn his/her true market value.

[Tom]

OOoooohhh. From reading some of the posts here, sounds like some teachers' little toes got stepped on.

No one bitches, whines, moans and complains about any and all aspects of their work like school teachers do.

Nick, how dare you repeat this heresy.

[Jon H]

cinquo wrote: "i am glad you want your kids educated by a "unionized public workforce" with the work ethics of garbagemen and construction workers instead of professionals."

My point was that if teachers acted like, say, police, they'd be demanding time-and-a-half for every minute worked outside the classroom.

(And don't get on about police risking their lives. I bet they get time-and-a-half if they're working behind a desk.)

[Jon H]

Tom wrote: "OOoooohhh. From reading some of the posts here, sounds like some teachers' little toes got stepped on."

Actually, I'm a programmer. Never been a teacher.

That report is based on really blatantly faulty assumptions.

[RS]

In addition to the extra hours, I'd add the constant fear of being sued or fired due to a disgruntled parent or student's fabrications. Nowadays - well, except in NYC maybe - parents and students are always given the benefit of the doubt so it's really not hard for them to go after and destroy a teacher they simply don't like. Plus, we've gone back to the days when teachers were meant to be these self-sacrificing moral beings. Hell, my wife - a teacher - is practically scared to be seen with me in public.

[cinquo]

no, they are more greedy that that! they want all the perks of an union-protected hourly workforce AND all the benifits of a saleried position (sick days, paid vacations, personal days) PLUS the pomp and prestige of a being a "professional" not to mention the right to whine to their bought politicians about how poorly treated they are.

so it goes for a monoploized workforce. at least we expect more out of our garbagemen and firefighters, but no not for our pariah teaches

[cinquo]

gee holding teachers accountable to their CUSTOMERS, what a crime!

[Tommy_Grand]

"Yeah, in number terms it's about the same as an accountant. But I'd guess most accountants don't work 10 hour days except maybe during tax season, and wouldn't want to work those hours, for that pay, for 9 months of the year."

Almost all accountants work more hours per year than public school teachers. This includes hours worked at home as well as those worked in the office. (I am not sure if it includes field trips or the prom). If you have proof to the contrary, post a link.

[Nick]

As the husband of a first year teacher in Oregon, it's clear that my wife receives compensation that is far better than what she would receive doing something she enjoys in the private sector. Add in that she gets health benefits worth > $7,000/year and retirement contributions of another 14 percent of salary and her total compensation is pretty dang good. All of a sudden for a first year employee we're looking at total compensation in the form of $45K or so. Plus, we'd much rather take the health benefit spending in cash, but that's an option the union won't allow. It's far more concerned with maintaining control than offering teachers what they want/need.

The more important fact is that there's no ability to adjust her pay for the extra time she works or when her students do well. Frankly, how would we ever know if teachers are paid too much, not enough or just right? Is there some cosmic scale that someone else knows about, because God hasn't told me the appropriate wage for a teacher, or for my work for that matter. Furthermore, why would the wage be the same for all teachers regardless of what they teach or how good they are at their jobs?

Until you answer those questions statements that teachers are underpaid/overpaid are meaningless. What is meaningful is a more honest discussion about how they are paid and the inane way we compensate them without any connection to the work they do.

[mike e]

As a new teacher, let me say my views are not those of a more "senior" teacher. I've noticed a fair bit of whine factor in many older teachers, and it does seem they move from one "bitch" to another with impressive skill and speed.

I would not presume to make any blanket assertions of my new profession until I have been 'in the trenches' a bit longer. However I will say that a love for profession seems key to overall happiness in work. I think you need to love teaching first, then worry about the pay; doing the opposite will create animosity regardless of what the true situation is.

I do think teaching is under-appreciated by many, and therein lies a key problem for those in the profession.

Remember one thing: it is we who are with your children at least 35 hours a week. Unfortunately that is more time than some parents spend with them. As such, the 2 months (3 months? hardly!) off every summer is a necessary time to reinvigorate mentally.

Don't believe me? Step in a classroom for one week.

I'll accept your apology after that.

[William]

I am assuming that when you say "takes into account," you mean that you are able to measure the extra benefit. If you can completely measure the total impact of a teacher on a student, then please do.

How much do teachers really impact us? Can you think of more than two or three teachers in your life that had a major impact on your life? You see, no single teacher has the time to impact each student in a large way.

Anyway, if this is the average pay and if pay is based on seniority (and it is), then the good teachers may be paid too little but the poor teachers are paid too much.

[Brad S]

William - that statement is true in virtually any Unionized profession one can think of, with the possible exception of pro sports. Good workers who do their job well are underpaid, while poor workers who loaf around and bitch and moan about every little thing (all the while freeloading off of their hardworking co-workers) are overpaid.

[cinquo]

mike, sign me up! ohhhh wait, your union won't let me cause it holds the keys (licensing) and the public schools have a monopolistic grip on the market.

gee sorry two whole months isn't enough time for you to recover for your CHOSEN JOB. love of profession! ha! why do you teachs spend soo much time bitching about your pay then! some pariahs! now stop posting on your union break and get back to sweeping the steets, ur, i mean teaching our future.

our future in the hands of garbagemen!

[Lefty]

Hey, Cinquo. When did they start letting prisoners have internet access?

[cinquo]

they haven't started locking people up for criticising teaches -- YET! don't worry, i am sure the union has one up for legislation.

[mike e]

Congrats, cinqou, on showing us that there are indeed many who can go through at least 12 years of education and still not learn a thing. Are there bad teachers out there? Absolutely. Are the unions' way too big and the cause of many problems? Without question.

I have been under attack locally for my firm anti-union stance. It is probably not the smartest thing for a new teacher to do, but it falls in line with my long-held beliefs on the deleterious effects of unions run wild.

I thought I stressed in my earlier post that many teachers need to put the noble cause of their profession ahead of money,money,money. How the illustrious cinqou could possibly believe I was sticking up for tenured teachers or unions is mind-boggling. As I said, we can't reach them all, and cinqou is living proof.

Cinqou's childish attempt to equate teaching with street -cleaning shows one thing: here is a person who so hates his line of work that he reflexively mocks the chosen profession of anyone who may actually enjoy what they do for a living. Real mature.

Where in the world did you find where I said 2 months off were not enough? I said it was welcomed, and it should indeed be counted toward the fringe benefits of teaching, of course for cinqou (sinkhole?) to admit this would require intellectual maturity on his part . . . he's about 5 or 6 years removed from that vaunted area yet.

Now stop posting . . .oh wait, you have all the time in the world to post. You've been soaking the productive segment of society for years by abusing unemployment.

Keep posting 'sinkhole', I'm sure you have all the time in the world.

[Perry]

I think that the real issue here isn't about pay - it's that teachers are stuck in an environment where:

* Many of them have largely no control over their lesson plans

* They have no way to discipline or control the kids that don't want to be there.

* They face a lawsuit anytime they talk at a child the wrong way, let alone try to physically handle them

* They deal with parents that take utter and full advantage of the 'entitlement' of a public education - it's babysitting but without the cost.

Schools should have the right to remove children that don't want to learn or disrupt the learning of other children. Let's stop treating public school like it is automatic babysitting and start treating it like it is a priviledge and a service provided by municipalities.

[Anonymous]

Perry's comments should end this post. Done. Finished.

He sums it up perfectly

[cinquo]

wait, i thought i was a prisoner, now i am unemployed??? i must have hit a nerve - ad hominem, look it up teach!

for the record educators SHOULD be a noble profession, the most important profssion -- but like all those with political power it has been turned into a cushy scam.

obiviously it is not all teachers, but a healthy majority perpetuate the destrutive meme that teachers are "underpaid, overworked pariahs" instead of unfairly protected by unions, political power and monopolies, which in turn naturally transmogifies the 'profession' into clockpunching whiners living off the charity of unions and politicians -- without any sense of professional pride and the work ethic of municipal workers.

it isn't my fault the emporeror wears no clothes!

[cinquo]

gee, i see, the taxpayer works for the teaching-class. thanks for the perspective perry!

[Brad S]

cinquo - no, the taxpayer doesn't (as you put it) "work for the teaching-class". However, it is in the taxpayer's interest to keep quality teachers in nearby schools. Go to just about any city in America and you'll see huge differences in property values for various neighborhoods. A $300,000 home in one neighborhood can be almost 100% identical to a $150,000 home in another neighborhood just a few miles away. The number one driver of these differences is the quality of public schools. So, to imply that taxpayers get no tangible benefit from having good teachers around is fallacious.

[JDM]

As distasteful as I find wrangling over what a profession is worth, I'll play too:

All public school teachers should be fired, and their life savings confiscated to pay the costs of burning every public school to the ground. Whatever does not burn should be ground into powder, the earth beneath the sites salted, and concrete caps poured over the ground. If there is money left over, memorials should be erected to commemorate the suffering and waste of that most precious human flower - youth.

[Perry]

Hey cinquo - grab a valium or two..

You're trying to crucify teachers when what we should be doing is crucifying the way that the public education system is arranged.

The teachers are just the foot soldiers being sent off to 'educate the kids'. With the frustration levels that they have to deal with - mainly because it is a bureaucracy and it is part of an entitelement system and with all the issues aforementioned, they should be paid, and paid rather well.

What we really should have an open debate about is - to what level is a guaranteed education part of what we want in a society, and what choices/options should we provide to those who can't or don't want to participate in the system?

(and that's for the parents who pay for a private education for their kids, on down to the kids that are both rich and poor who obviously don't want to participate in a schooling system)

[cinquo]

that wasn't my implication. i was disagreeing that should have the right to remove children while also banning alternatives and that it is a priviledge (you don't pay for priviledges).

jdm, nice troll.

[joe]

Cinquo wouldn't last ten minutes in a classroom full of 12 year olds. Neither would I, but at least I have the decency to respect the poor bastards who do.

BTW, unionized municipal workers seemed to acquit themselves pretty well on 9/11.

[cinquo]

perry:

1. they vote
2. they vote for the system
3. the system then works for THEM and not for the children (or their parents, who fit the bill)
4. they use the union and politicians as muscle against anyone who speaks out against them
5. they perpetuate the myth that they are underpaid, overworked pariahs by shrieking and sobbing loudly whenever someone dare challenges this myth, thereby distracting anyone from questioning why they created the system in the first place.

they are a BIG part of the problem

[cinquo]

my brother is actually attempting to get into that market -- has to finance two more years of education to get his certs, and he graduated with honors from a top 10 university. meanwhile an idiot with 2.5 and a cert is "more qualified" than him.

i don't respect streetsweepers who pretend to be educatated professionals. and yes I respected the municipal workers on 9-11, only because they did their job well (and face it, the education monopoly puts out a poor product).

[JDM]

cinquo,

I figured that as long as everyone was fantasizing about having the capacity to determine the relative worth of a profession, I might as well take a shot at it. Though with the amount of damage state education and its main backers (teachers) are doing to the country, I don't think I have the literary skills to adequately express my evaluation of their actual negative value.

[jane]

It is so obvious that no one understands being a teacher except a teacher. Our spouses see the extra time put in by dedicated teachers. Aside from teaching and the duties that are involved in preparation and grading, we have committies, PTO meetings, workshops,etc...Last Spring I spent on average 48 hours a week at school. Although that was an exception- I do get very upset with the average business man who thinks it is all peaches and creame. Furthermore, we are raising your children. There is more added to the teaching day to compensate for the poor raising of American's children. Do you want to pay for the best raising your child or the the ones that want to do want to better themselves as teachers because they do not get paid for it. You get what you pay for.

[MAR]

Plutarck,
First of all. Just curious, but what do you want to be certified in.
I don't think anyone is saying the public education system is great. It definitely has its problems. Schools (at least the ones I went to)are tending to lean toward teaching to the bottom part of the class and therefore the "intelligent" students fly through school, rarely have homework, don't learn much and are rarely challenged.
I'm going to graduate with a teaching degree in Dec. I believe that most of the classes for my major have been useful. Sure I could have learned part of it if I had just checked the textbooks out of the library, but by going to class I was able to get hands on experience (going into schools and observing teachers, learning what to do and what not to do) and was able to learn from people who had taught in the past. They gave me information that you learn only through experience, not from books.
MAR