Sauds Still Falling, Or Not

Robert Baer's attack on the Saudi government, "The Fall of the House of Saud," is online, though not at The Atlantic's site. When I namechecked that article in my own scabrous attack on the Saudis, I got a detailed rebuttal and defense of the royal family from "Sheri," which was pretty interesting, but so long that I'm going to post it in the comments section for this post. (The idea that the royal family is actually a force for progress and moderation in Saudi Arabia is one I've seen here and there before, and I don't know enough to agree or disagree.) Read on if you're interested.

Comments

[tim]

Received in response to my April 28 article in Reason:

“The book by Robert Baer (Sleeping with the Devil) ought to sell. IMO the article begins with an accurate account of the vulnerability of the oil fields and facilities and degenerates from there into kernels of truth surrounded by errors of fact, speculation, rumors, downright lies and Mr. Baer’s personal filter…. or maybe that’s “political agenda”.

“Abdullah’s mother is not from the Rasheedi tribe. (Most of the Rasheedi were run out of Hail before WW1 as they were on the payroll of the Ottoman Turks… In fact, the British gave Ibn Saud a small stipend contingent upon his maintaining a small army in readiness to keep the troublesome Rasheedi from returning to KSA) Abdullah’s mother was Fahda bint al-‘Asi Al Shuraim of the Shammar tribe.

“When you look at family groups and the age spread, the first bunch of sons to include Abdullah and the Sudairi Seven were given the most training for future leadership roles and the expectations for service placed on them were higher. So while, like brothers do, they sometimes struggle and disagree… they ultimately stick together, compromise and draw on their various strengths.. Between their roles in various ministries and as governors of different provinces, plus the Majlis and the Shura council, they do have to arrive at consensus.

“Abdullah is NOT all powerful, but he is liked, respected and trusted. I don’t see them as nearly so fractured as Robert Baer would like to suggest. They are a savvy bunch of men.

“The crack about Bandar being the son of a servant girl is telling. Baer obviously doesn’t know how seriously the Saudis take the Koranic injunction about equality among children. Its an old theme that goes to the rules of children born to slave women having equal rights and claims to the father and the elevation of the status of the mothers. Its patently obvious in the remarkable lack of racism among the Saudis with regard to color.

“The story about Bandar’s wife sending funds to terrorists in the US has been thoroughly investigated and debunked with linear accountability for all those funds.

“The repeated claim that 15 of the terrorists were Saudis remains murky and intentionally unexplored. One of the terrorists died here in Ft. Lauderdale in a small, student plane crash on Cypress Creek Road out of the Executive Jet Port nearly a year earlier.

“My office was on the same street and I remember it vividly because traffic was stalled for hours and I followed it up at the time because he was a Saudi.

“Six other Saudi terrorists are still alive. At least people who are Saudi with the same names and the same faces are alive. It boils down to the certainty that 15 hijackers had Saudi passports which were issued by the US Consulate.

“(A small aside is that a Yemeni National named Abdullah Noman who worked at the US consulate in Saudi was picked up and released in Colorado after it was proven that he issued phoney papers and visas no questions asked for $1400 a pop.)

“Three families of other 911 terrorists have been questioned from the Asir region about their sons.. What they know is that their sons went to fight in Chechnya between 8 months and 3 months prior to 911 and have never been heard from again.

“So the certainty is that the act has a Saudi face… That’s tidy, especially since Saudis and Saudi students had particularly privileged status in obtaining US visas since the mid-1950s and the US has trained thousands of Saudi pilots.

“The 911 terrorists may have been Saudis and maybe not.. We don’t seem too keen on really knowing.

“Prince Turki is on record with several published interviews and US television appearances where he states that Saudi Arabia was very close and cooperative with US goals and objectives in Afghanistan from 1979- 1994.. in funding and recruiting the Mujahadeen from both KSA and Yemen to fight the Soviets. And, OBL was a part of that in collusion with the CIA and the ISI in Pakistan.

“The claim that KSA is involved in the nuclear build up in Pakistan is a hoot.. Of course they are! Both Pak nukes and Indian nuke programs are specific to EACH other. Considering large scale investments, loans and nuclear development assistance from Israel to India all through the 1980s and early 1990s, to be shocked or indignant or view that as something sinister is a bit asinine and ought to be a hard sell even to the US public who wants their news to be like fast food.. quick, simple and fattening.

“Corruption in Saudi Arabia? Sweet deals, successful business ventures and profitable relationships are always eager to replicate themselves. Hardly a Saudi phenomena… Are they more or less greedy, corrupt and/or error prone than many of our captains of industry? We need hip boots for this hypocrisy.

“I spend a couple of hours with Princess Mahdi and the senior Al Saud princess (sister to Ibn Saud) at the Al Nadha in Jiddah. We talked quite a lot about dissidents. There are apparently two minorities. One who are religious fanatics who want to go backwards and another group who wants instant reform and to instantly embrace all things Western. The reformers who want to oust the Al Saud are mostly found in Hamburg, Germany and in London with connections to the Funsbury park Mosque there and the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood…They are some ousted radical university professors from Riyadh who were subsequently funded by OBL in London after they got into trouble in the kingdom for inciting against the US troops stationed there. They are also suspected of being connected to the attack on the Khobar Towers.

“But, these ex-pat Muslim radicals are definitely connected to the CDLR, the SaudHouse hatesite and Sufi and Shia radicals in Italy..

“Lots of propaganda: Saudi Arabia has drug rehab programs which you won’t ever find mentioned in the Christian fundy hatesites and flogging or caning has a very specific Sharia protocol.. The administrator has to hold a Koran between his elbow and wrist against his side to limit range of motion. Its designed to be a “switching” … a public humiliation like spending a day in the stocks rather than a savage beating.

“Meanwhile KSA keeps plodding along. The press has opened up dramatically. 6,000 business licences were issued to Saudi women last year. 250,000 Saudi women are currently in business.

“New factories for cereals, poultry, air conditioners, car parts, chandeliers, have opened or expanded in the private sector. Saudi has lots of glass manufacturing. Plus, 18 new universities are in the works. New desal plants are in the works..additional fish farms are under construction in Buraydah and on the Red Sea so their export tonnage is growing like mad.

“I have been to Abdul Aziz’s (King Fahd’s baby son) theme Park outside Riyadh.. toured, had supper, smoked the hooka and sat and talked with young male and female Saudi journalists.

“I would be amazed if the theme park cost 4.6 million .. NOT 4.6 billion as Baer claims. I also visited the Mismak replica which is built of sand and straw bricks… and Abdul Aziz’s amazing farm.

“All these projects have some cultural and/or historic benefit and created jobs for laborers as well as young Saudi architects, artists, engineers, designers, veterinarians, textile engineers, AG students etc. Lots of real interesting experimental stuff going on in KSA. Unemployment is high and they need to continue to diversify, but a significant portion of their population is still under 15. Its also a hard fact, that Saudi Arabia still employs many, many British and American school teachers in the Saudi schools and they sure aren’t teaching radical Islam.

“I could go on.. In short this is a clever hit piece and its what people want to hear. Lots of different groups_ from those who hate OPEC to the Christian Zios to the neocons who want to redraw the ME to Muslims dissident groups all yapping about dysfunction and corruption and certain demise. I don’t think so.

“I had some trepidation about returning to Saudi for fear it would be so changed and I would be disappointed. Surprise. Its thrilling. They have accomplished a great deal on the public side to benefit the citizens … and, there is an undercurrent of burgeoning commerce..self-generated and vital small businesses unhampered by oppressive government regulation.

“Its a mistake to think that because the Saudis wear funny clothes that they are unintelligent or have no foresight or that they aren’t serious people with an eye on their own future in the world community.

“Time will tell, but I don’t think the House of Saud will fall. They are way too dedicated to trying to do the right thing for Saudi Arabia. Their history proves it. They may morph into a Constitutional Monarchy in our lifetime. Who knows? I sometimes wonder if these constant, ugly attacks are designed to send them reeling backwards into a rigid and fearful posture.

“Don’t buy into the notion that Saudi culture and tradition is inflexible. When a female in our group got so sick and had to be put in a wheel chair she was attended by a young Saudi who treated her with great care and respect, not to mention tenderness. He had to lift her, support her.. everything. I thought it odd for a Saudi to touch a Western female much less wait on her every need.. especially at the low point when she tossed her cookies in a museum. Turned out this young guy was the son of the Minister of Defense… one of those spoiled rotten royals. LOL. Go figure.

“Sheri”

[SM]

Prince Bandar once made a similar argument about how progressive the saudi royals were; he argued that SA was the only country in the world where the government was “avant-garde” – his words – and the people were playing catch up.

[Lefty]

Maybe tim could cut and paste a copy of “War and Peace” on here sometime.

[Chuck]

With hundreds, if not thousands of “royals”, the House of Saud is bound to have Princes of very stripe and color. Avante garde, however, in Saudia Arabia means the sixteenth century, not the thirteenth. Go figure…

OBL, oddly, if you do the research, had very little to do with the fight against the Soviets in Afghanistan. Apparently he spent a great deal of time in Pakistani hotel rooms telling reporters what a famous freedom fighter he was. Links between OBL and any American support of the fight against the Soviets may be equally tenuous.

Recent Saudi bloggings:
Horror in the House of Saud
Fixing Saudi Arabia

[SM]

“With hundreds, if not thousands of “royals”, the House of Saud …”

Do you mean to say that Sheri’s account of how that Saudi gentleman treated a “Western female” with gallantry & “tenderness” did nothing to convine you about what a progressive & open place Saudi Arabia is ?

[James]

Shari failed to mention the public beheadings. Admittedly, that one is hard to spin.

As a gay man I fear going to the current Texas, but I refuse to even consider visiting the future-East-Texas.

[James Merritt]

“Scabrous attack”?

“Scabrous” as in “crusted over or scaly?” (I have known this definition for years…)

“Scabrous,” as in “salacious”? (I discovered that definition today…)

Or “scabrous” as in some meaning that hasn’t yet made the dictionary?

[Rick Barton]

Tim Cavanaugh wrote:
“Nor is there any truth to the claim that the American military presence is offensive because it is close to the “holy” cities of Mecca and Medina; the USAF base is located a mountain range, a desert, and several hundred miles away from these cities”

What? Is this true? No military presence any closer to Mecca then “several hundred miles”? The fundamentalists talked about the military presence “poisoning the atmosphere of righteousness” in the city. I’m glad that the military is leaving the country, but still if true, what an exaggeration! Do our tax dollars support the Saudi regime? If so, this seems an opportune time to cut them off. As in zero.

[tim]

The meaning you discovered today.

[Shari]

Public beheadings..

Public beheadings for capital crimes are no more lethal than the gas chamber, electric chair or lethal injection. Capital crimes being murder, repeated drug trafficking and pedophelia.

And, Saudi Arabia takes perjury far more seriously than our US courts where its rarely to NEVER prosecuted.

[Deangelis Andrea]

EMAIL: [e-mail]
IP: 62.213.67.122
URL: http://psybnc-account.1st-host.org
DATE: 01/19/2004 08:19:27
In this grand B movie we call life, there is always a girl.

[Zimmerman Beth Kaufman]

EMAIL: [e-mail]
IP: 80.58.19.170
URL: http://preteen-sex.info
DATE: 05/20/2004 03:20:26
Believing in God does not require believing in religion.