Bush and the Gun Ban
Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) is circulating a letter among his colleagues asking President Bush to reconsider his support for renewing the so-called assault weapon ban, which is scheduled to expire in September 2004. Although usually presented as the very model of reasonable gun control, this law is in fact an arbitrary infringement on the right to keep and bear arms, banning weapons based on little more than their militaristic appearance. As Paul notes, the guns covered by the law are not true assault rifles, which are capable of automatic fire. The banned weapons are semi-automatic guns, firing once per trigger pull, that are neither especially dangerous nor especially favored by criminals.
"The semi-auto ban is useless in preventing violent crime," Paul writes. "Contrary to the propaganda of gun control supporters, only a very small percentage of crimes were committed with so-called assault weapons."
Paul adds that there is nothing sinister about magazines that hold more than 10 rounds, which are also banned by the law. "10, 20 and 30 round magazines for 'legitimate' hunting rifles have been on the market for decades," he notes. "These rifles banned in 1994 are little different than the semi-automatic hunting rifles that have been on the market since World War II."
The "assault weapon" ban is important as a precedent precisely because its justification is so slight. It suggests that you don't need a good reason to limit Second Amendment rights. It also invites further infringements down the road, as supporters take the critics' arguments to heart and start arguing that the ban is not broad enough. After all, it covers only a very small percentage of the guns used in crimes.
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I'll plead agnosticism on whether the law is well-or poorly-written in regards to distinguishing between military hardware and norma weaponry
Don't know that there are any laws on the books per se that make the distinction. But US v. Miller essentially stated that a sawn off shotgun having a barrel less than 18 inches had not been proven to contribute to the efficacy of a well-regulated militia. Therfore, case law seems to support the conclusion that military weapons are specifically protected.
But, joe, the die-hard anti-gun types, and the NRA members, are the only people who are going to CARE what Bush does about the '94 ban's renewal. Every poll I've ever seen showed that the folks in the middle don't give a bucket of warm spit about gun control, one way or the other. And the NRA types outnumber the die-hard anti-gunners about ten to one.
That's why Gore isn't in the White house, after all. The only reason a Democrat as anti-gun as Clinton could get elected was that he had the great fortune to be running both times against anti-gun Republicans. (And even then he never got a majority of the vote, just a plurality.) If Bush the elder and Dole hadn't gone out of their way to piss off gun owners, Clinton would be a footnote in the history books. Just another nobody who ran for President and got stomped.
And that's not speculation, that's *exit polling*. I invite you to go back and look, if you don't believe me.
"There is an honest (though looney, IMO) argument to be made that citizens should be able to own military hardware."
I challenge your use of auto/semi-automatic as synonomus of militiary hardware. As stated in Dr. Pauls letter, these weapons have plenty of non-military applications, as evidenced by their use by police officers and hunters. By your argument, any weapon - from knives to 9mm pistols - could be considered military since the military uses these weapons. This is unreasonable.
" we don't let individuals own SAMs and MOABs because it is too dangerous to do so. Do automatic weapons or high capacity clips fit into this category? That's a reasonable topic for debate"
This is an unreasonable distinction. You are comparing military equipment to personal arms that can be wielded with ease by both military and civilians. It is a little difficult a citizen to "keep" and especially "bear" a MOAB. Plus these are a different type of weapons than those that 2nd Ammendment advocates consider Constitional. A rifle is a rifle, the basic fucntion of the weapon is the same wether it is semi auto or single shot. Nobody is claiming that SAM or MOAB is an "arm" that a civilian can keep and bear, so that is irrelevent.
Joe-
First, if it were legal for people to own grenade launchers, MOABs, etc., how many do you think would actually do so? Many more than already now own "illegal arms" illegally? Of those, how many do you think would ever actually use them in a harmful or negligent way? I won't say that accidents or outright abuse would NEVER happen, but not to the extent that special laws restricting or banning weapons use need to be on the books. I suggest to you that the "menace" represented by private ownership of military weaponry is a phantom. It is "forehead-slappingly obvious" that people can certainly be made to go hysterical at the incendiary mental pictures painted by weapons-control freaks, and this propensity has certainly led to the mob mentality that has supported existing weapons bans.
You also brush aside the musket reference too lightly. Armies, especially those equipped from Royal treasuries, certainly had better muskets than most average people could afford -- many people of that era could not afford ANY muskets, and made do with knives, swords, bows-and-arrows, etc. The concept of the right to keep and bear arms included the idea that a citizen could have better, more powerful arms -- equal to those carried by the best professional soldiers -- if he could afford to purchase and maintain them. In the modern day, we have elected (spuriously, I feel) to put a cap on that.
Laws that purport to keep truly powerful, military weapons out of private hands seem like a waste of time (as do the bans of lesser weapons, truth be told). The mere possession of things like weapons should not be illegal. Demonstrated negligence in using or maintaining them, or proven harm caused (or imminent danger posed by them) is something that the government ought to be able to address effectively with existing, reasonable laws regarding hazards to public safety, reckless endangerment, and the like.
We really seeem to spend an awful lot of time discussing and preventing silly, extreme cases, with the aim of neutralizing phantom menaces, but with the result that we wrap ourselves in a blanket of law and regulation that continually gets in the way of reasonable, average citizen business, while doing little to ensure or improve security, but nevertheless aggrandizing government beyond its previous limits.
What will be next? A ban on privately owned and operated space stations because they might serve as space-based weapons platforms? Bans on privately owned laser cannons and particle-beam weapons? Talk about looney, but that certainly seems like the direction of the current trajectory...
I'l reiterate the same argument that has gone over and over and over. gun bans don't keep guns away from bad guys. they're BAD guys. They don't and won't obey laws. All the bans do is keep the guns from law-abiding citizens. Anyone who thinks differently is CLEARLY an ID-10-T. It's a STUPID law.
To Joe:
The government-in-waiting (as you called it) allowed - even encouraged - private ownership of cannons and cannonballs. Much of the artillery used by the Continetal Army was provided by private individuals, and my memory is that much of it was returned to the original owner after the war.
And there is absolutely no doubt that at the time the Constitution was written and for many years after privately-owned ships carried many cannon.
The Constitution allows for private warships:
Article I, Section 8, paragraph 11 of the U.S. Constitution authorizes Congress to "grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water."
A "reprisal" means an action taken in return for some injury. A reprisal could be a seizing of property or guilty persons in retaliation for an attack and injury. It could include forced used against the perpetrators for the redress of grievances.
It seems foolish to me to assume that the Founders expected these warships to be unarmed, or armed with less than state-of-the-art weaponry.
Joe-
The problem is that there isn't really a lot of difference functionally between a good deer rifle and a military weapon. They look significantly different, but they essentially need very similar performance specifications to do the job. The difference in appearance is usually due to the fact that military weapons are constructed very robustly (plastic stocks etc) where hunting weapons are more refined visually. Assuming we aren't talking about bolt action rifles the difference between sporting and military hardware is pretty slight. Bayonet lugs, availability of larger clips is all I'm coming up with. This is the part that is worrisome to people like me. This one is illegal and the one in the cabinet next to it is not. Hold it, they are pretty similar when you look at how they perform. It doesn't make any sense at all. One has a pistol grip and fires ten projectiles with good accuracy at 200 yards before reloading. The other fires ten projectiles with good accuracy at 200 yards before reloading but with no pistol grip. Ones legal the others not. You ask Jacob for a distinction; the point is that there really isn't one.
The only way to start making a distinction is to start talking about grenade launchers and SAM's, which of course you do. Yes, we have to draw the line somewhere; lets draw it at grenade launchers. Then we can start leaving collectors, and hunters alone and not criminalize their hobbies and activities.
People who pay their taxes, walk their dog, do their job, love their spouse and children are being turned into criminals by this kind of legislation. Yet they have done nothing to harm or inconvenience anyone. Yea, Yea, some idiot is going to bring up availability............... criminals........ school shootings......... bla bla. It's not being done with the weapons that are being banned. Its being done with junk collectors and enthusiasts wouldn't even consider owning!
"with the captain of the militia often elected at town meeting."
Often spontaneous town meetings.
"so it's silly to pretend that the founders answered the question of what type of arms people were entitled to own."
You make it sound like the founders were stone-age boobs who never witnessed technological change before.
Mr. Stinker,
A reasonable distinction can be drawn based on the amount of damage a weapon can do, which is directly relevant to the danger it poses to the public's welfare. A weapons rate of fire can dramatically effect the amount of destruction it can cause. I believe a reasonable line can be drawn based on that figure, and judgement calls like this are the proper sphere of the legislative branch.
The "ease of use" argument is also weak. Hand grenade and suicide bomber belts are quite easy to use, and quite destructive.
7.62,
A weapon that can fire 30 rounds without reloading, and that can fire them in a rapid burst with one pull of the trigger, is functionally different than a hunting rifle with a ten round clip. I'm not talking about the material of the stock, which does not effect the amount of damage the weapon does. Being able to spray dozens of bullets in a few seconds is qualitatively different from the destructive power of a single shot weapon. Just as the damage done by certain types of single shot weapons (explosive rounds, cop killer bullets, incendiary rounds, 50 caliber rounds) can cause significantly more damage than those commonly used for hunting or personal protection. Just to be totally clear, I think distinctions based on appearance, materials, etc. are bogus.
Russ,
The difference between a good musket and bad musket is vanishingly small, compared to the difference between a single shot rifle and an AK with the pin filed down, in terms of how much damage they can cause.
Let's review Joe's original argument:
>Would you support a better written ban, that includes language about firing mechanisms that can readily be filed down to allow auto-fire?
We've since found out the AW ban had nothing to do with machine (or could be machine) guns and that the law that Joe wanted to accomplish some great good has been in place for almost 60 years. (BTW - 34 NFA has been a spectacular failure, and the 80s revision is one of the great tools for converting mild RKBA folk into firebreathers.)
> I'll plead agnosticism on whether the law is well-or poorly-written in regards to distinguishing between military hardware and norma weaponry. Frankly, I've heard a lot of arguments that it's not.
With that response, we know that Joe doesn't know much of anything about gun law or doesn't care; he just wants more. In other words, the excuses/reasons he gives aren't actually relevant to his position.
>My point is that, just as the bill fails to distinguish between the two types of weaponry, so does Mr. Sullum.
Sullum doesn't need to distinguish between the two types to make his argument that the AW ban is stupid. He merely needs to point out that the AW ban doesn't actually make the distinction claimed by its supporters.
As the distinction already existed in federal law, Joe's advocacy for new law is "curious". Does he have a cogent explanation that is different from "I'll use any excuse to ban guns"? After all, he's already got what he's using as justification for new law....
Let's review Joe's original argument:
>Would you support a better written ban, that includes language about firing mechanisms that can readily be filed down to allow auto-fire?
We've since found out the AW ban had nothing to do with machine (or could be machine) guns and that the law that Joe wanted to accomplish some great good has been in place for almost 60 years. (BTW - 34 NFA has been a spectacular failure, and the 80s revision is one of the great tools for converting mild RKBA folk into firebreathers.)
> I'll plead agnosticism on whether the law is well-or poorly-written in regards to distinguishing between military hardware and norma weaponry. Frankly, I've heard a lot of arguments that it's not.
With that response, we know that Joe doesn't know much of anything about gun law or doesn't care; he just wants more. In other words, the excuses/reasons he gives aren't actually relevant to his position.
>My point is that, just as the bill fails to distinguish between the two types of weaponry, so does Mr. Sullum.
Sullum doesn't need to distinguish between the two types to make his argument that the AW ban is stupid. He merely needs to point out that the AW ban doesn't actually make the distinction claimed by its supporters.
As the distinction already existed in federal law, Joe's advocacy for new law is "curious". Does he have a cogent explanation that is different from "I'll use any excuse to ban guns"? After all, he's already got what he's using as justification for new law....
> A weapon that can fire 30 rounds without reloading, and that can fire them in a rapid burst with one pull of the trigger, is functionally different than a hunting rifle with a ten round clip.
But, as we've seen, the AW ban has nothing to do with "one pull of the trigger".
Interestingly enough, one of the most common hunting guns actually does put out dozens of projectiles with a single pull of the trigger.
Does Joe want to argue that shotguns are somehow inappropriate?
> cop killer bullets
Should we ban all ammunition that can readily pierce common "bullet proof" vests? (Those of you who know guns, let Joe answer.)
Joe posts: Would you support a better written ban, that includes language about firing mechanisms that can readily be filed down to allow auto-fire?
Doug replies: You need to be better informed. According to the BATF any arm that can be converted to full auto in less than 8 hours by a skilled machinist is treated as a full auto under the law, ie, ATF permit to own or transfer, $200 transfer tax, etc. Just like a BAR or a M-2 .50 cal Browning heavy machinegun.
In other words, the "readily filed down" guns that you describe do not exist. Just like the "assault weapon" they are a public relations fantasy created to wedge into the law a little more opression of gun owners.
The drafters of the "Assault Weapon" ban had no interest in preventing crime or violence. Their motivations were identical to those of the drafters of "Jim Crow" and the Nueremburg Laws. Their interest is in promoting their political influence by appealing to the most base instincts of their supporters by abusing a pariah group. Certain Southern politicians used to call it "Out niggering your oponent."
7.62x51 says, "let's draw the [weapons ban] line at grenade launchers." This, apparently, in an attempt to disassociate him/herself from "loonies" in the mind of Joe and the Joes of the world.
Unfortantely, that seems like a "feel-good" concession on 7.62x51's part, which will only play into the hands of those who would use that limit as starting point for greater limitations. We've seen it many times before, and in fact, that is how we have arrived at the (in my opinion) unreasonable position we now occupy, where some weapons are banned because they are "scary," not because those weapons can be shown to be hazardous in and of themselves, or because banning them has any demonstrated, beneficial effect on the crime rate, or the level of safety and security in the society.
Let's assume that any existing ban on grenade launchers is repealed quietly tomorrow, so that anyone who gets an idea to purchase a grenade launcher can go out and get one, with no more difficulty than purchasing a handgun or rifle. Do you really think that sales of grenade launchers would ... er ... skyrocket? Do you really think that the country will be significantly less safe as a result of legal grenade launchers? Describe to me the actual harm that could come from grenade launchers being in the hands of private citizens, whether such harm seems likely, and why any such potential harm would justify laws banning the ownership of grenade launchers while people remain completely free to own and use any number of other very dangerous substances and equipment (including weapons and non-weapons)?
Now, if there were a lot of PUBLICITY about the new "right to keep and bear grenade launchers," I'm sure that there could be a run on launchers and grenades, and that many of the purchasers might be wackos who wouldn't have had the idea had it not been force-fed to them by the media. Some of those wackos would create incidents that would be reported in the media, further stirring the frenzy, and giving ammunition to those who were just dying to say, "see, grenade launchers in private hands leads to tragedy!" Half the trick of maintaining a free country is making sure people have the common sense and sense of responsibility not to whip up a frenzy that inspires wackos to do crazy things. Laws, whether constraining free speech or weapons ownership, can't address THAT issue.
At some point, you have to face the "forehead slappingly obvious" fact that weapons laws have the PRIMARY effect of making the government appear "tough on crime," while reminding the (law abiding or marginally criminal) citizens to know and keep their place. These laws are, in other words, largely symbolic, except in the rare cases when the government can catch and put down an arms-smuggling ring, or as a way to "get" someone that seems otherwise beyond the law (in the same way that tax laws were used to get Capone, for example). Whatever good these occasional "bonus" arrests produce, I think it is outweighed by the impositions of a growing authoritarianism aimed at the public in general, impositions not necessarily based directly on the weapons laws themselves, but on the precedents they establish, or the "new powers" that government is led to discover and exercise, in order to make the weapons laws "work." For instance, a great many weapons control laws are based on an extension (abuse?) of government's power to tax, or the federal government's power to regulate interstate commerce. Once those powers are distorted to accommodate weapons control, others find ways to employ the same or similar distortions to limit freedoms in other areas. This is true about all law. It is therefore critical that ANY new law be proven NECESSARY before being enacted (or that it be struck down or repealed as soon as it is seen to be UNNECESSARY), because it will probably be used as a building block or stepping stone for future law. Making one special interest group or another "feel good" is at or near the top of the WORST reasons for making any law, not to mention a law that affects everyone.
If government stuck to making laws that were NECESSARY to deal with real, likely situations and concerns, we'd have many fewer laws, and a much freer country. I'll bet you'd not observe the country to be any less safe on the whole, than it is today. In fact, I'll bet that the heightened sense of self-reliance and responsibility that usually goes along with truly free societies would help our nation be even safer than it is today.
Freeman Andy,
The assault weapons ban isn't a new law. I'm not arguing for any new laws. In fact, I'm not even arguing for the extension of the assault weapons ban, have explicitly denied the utility of weapons bans based on appearance. Read much?
Nor am I arguing for the adoption of any specific gun control laws. Rather, I'm trying to clear up the principles which should guide the adoption of these laws. Decent people try to base their political opinions on principles, not hatred of people they perceive to be political deviants, or getting what they want, regardless of its impact on other people.
You accuse me of using any excuse to further "my position" of wanting to ban guns. If you find my position out there somewhere, please let me know; I'd love to know what it looks like. I'm just trying to find a position based on reasonable accommodation of the public's welfare and personal liberty. But I guess that's not good enough for conspiracy sniffing crusaders like yourself.
Doug,
"The drafters of the "Assault Weapon" ban had no interest in preventing crime or violence. Their motivations were identical to those of the drafters of "Jim Crow" and the Nueremburg Laws. Their interest is in promoting their political influence by appealing to the most base instincts of their supporters by abusing a pariah group."
Your mindreading skills are incredible. Quick, I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10.
You've sunk to comparing your opponents to Hitler. Nice one.
And you have the unbelievable temerity to compare American gun owners to Jews in Hitler's Germany. Another nice one.
You're a classy guy.
Joe, go right ahead and file down that "pin" on your AK. Then it won't even light off a single round. Leave stoning the sear to us mountain folk.
The argument of fire rate = the point where regulation is acceptable is spurious, since even with fully automatic guns, gunfire is no match for actual fire. Whether the Warsaw Ghetto or the Happy Land Social Club in NYC, gasoline, sterno, aerosol propelants, car tires filled with kerosene: there are several more deadly and more readily available death delivery devices one could choose.
Unintended Consequences of the '94 ban have made the pre-ban guns and magazines extremely valuable, enriching the owners of these guns. Allowing the ban to sunset will result in a drop in value as market pricing returns. Gee, I wonder if that's a takings....
Joe-
You obviously know nothing about this subject. If you file the "pin" down on AK or any other rifle it will shoot zero bullets every time the trigger is pulled. As far as the 30 round clips they are illegal where I live. It's a moot point however; given how quickly they can be changed, in both sporting and military weapons. The same is true for all of the other explosive rounds etc, with the exception of .50 cal.
You still don't get it so I'll say it again. The differences; other than cosmetics aren't really there.
"Just to be totally clear, I think distinctions based on appearance, materials, etc. are bogus."
In saying that, and taking into account the evidence showing almost no functional difference, why criminalize so many peoples activity? You have made the argument to repeal this law. What other reasons do you have not to?
Mr. Merritt-
You are absolutely correct. I am trying to distance myself from the "loonies" Your argument however does make sense. Could we get some regulation though? I do have a fear of "loonies" with grenade launchers. I know some loonies that really shouldn't have grenade launchers, trust me on this. And I will admit that a couple of grenades with a launcher down at the quarry sounds fun. Just have to figure out the appropriate targets to use. Soda cans seem insufficient
I haven't written a word about not wanting to repeal this law. Read my posts. I'm trying to grope my way to a position on what the law should be.
I'll be first to admit that I don't know about the mechanics of guns; I think you "experts" sound a lot like Trekkies who can't get cable. 7.62X51: why don't you just call yourself "Spock" and get it over with.
And for all your talk about the impossiblility of converting to full automatic, there are an awful lot of people doing exactly that.
Joe-
The fact that there are a lot of people out there who sound like "experts" and pursue this with the level of zeal that treckies do should tell you something. What it tells me is that there are a lot of people who honestly enjoy ownership of guns. I hope you take this into account as you develop your position.
Please don't call me Spock. Although the mind meld and that paralyzing grip thing are cool, all he ever had for a sidearm was a stupid phaser. Way uncool, Spock with a glock would be much better.
BTW, I'm a long way from a firearms expert, just working knowledge.
joe writes:
> And for all your talk about the impossiblility of converting to full automatic, there are an awful lot of people doing exactly that.
And who are these people? And where are they, and where are the crimes that they are committing with semi-autos illegally modified to fully automatic?
You are full of it, and you are starting to just make up stuff.
Please go and educate yourself about firearms, how they work and the very strict felony laws that govern them, before you embarrass yourself further. You sound like an Amish man spouting off about banning automobiles that he has never driven, and knows nothing about.
Two last points to joe:
1) As previously pointed out to posters, a firearm that can be "readily converted" to a machine gun (any fully automatic firearm) is considered a machine gun. This notion of putting a screwdriver into your semi-automatic rifle and turning it into an assault rifle is fantasy. Anybody who knows about the mechanisms of the trigger and sear knows that messing with this mechanism is very dangerous - it may make the firearm fire uncontrollably.
2) If you actually wish to educate yourself about semi-automatic "assault weapons", I recommend visiting:
http://www.awbansunset.com
They also happen to have online discussion forums, where if you ask questions, as opposed to making blanket untrue statements, you will actually get reasoned and knowledgeable answers to what firearms can and cannot do.
Joe is arguing with himself. He started with:
> Would you support a better written ban, that includes language about firing mechanisms that can readily be filed down to allow auto-fire?
Now he's at:
> I'm not arguing for any new laws.
> I'll be first to admit that I don't know about the mechanics of guns
Then Joe is at something of a disadvantage when discussing issues that depend on mechanics.
Certain things simply aren't possible because of mechanical issues, no matter how much one might wish otherwise.
I note that knowledge of law is also important. It's poor form to claim that a "proposed" law will do something that it hasn't done.
> And for all your talk about the impossiblility of converting to full automatic, there are an awful lot of people doing exactly that.
Really? How does Joe know that they're not just MAKING full-auto guns, using guns stolen from govts, or using smuggled guns?
It's important to realize that guns are low-tech. They're simple metal shapes that can be made a number of ways, so they're easy to make with readily available tools. (The hardest part is barrel boring and rifling, but it's easy enough take the barrel from one gun and use it to make another.) The vast majority of the parts are unremarkable - you can't tell them from mechanical parts for other purposes.
A couple of years ago, some of the United Airlines machinists who worked at the San Francisco repair facilities decided to make and distribute machine guns. What law can stop them?
Note that they had good tools, but that's not necessary. The greatest gun designer who ever lived, who invented nearly every kind of gun operating principle[1], never had tools as sophisticated as can be found at Sears/Walmart....
[1] He invented all of the auto and semi auto mechanisms we know now. The only "repeaters" that he didn't invent are revolvers, bolt- and lever-actions, and gatling guns. He even invented a full-auto scheme for lever-action guns....
Joe,
Compare the anti jew editorial cartoons in Der Sturmer and the antigun and anti gun owner editorial cartoons like these:
http://cagle.slate.msn.com/news/nra/nra16.asp
http://cagle.slate.msn.com/news/nra/heston.gif
http://cagle.slate.msn.com/news/nra/nra18.asp
http://lcweb.loc.gov/rr/print/swann/herblock/images/s03456u-th.jpg
Gun owners are subhumans, murderers, devils, half-wits and moral imbiciles according to these. In fact, these are comparatively mild compared to some I have seen. This sort of stuff is not detectably more inflamatory than the anti-semitic cartoons from Der Sturmer:
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/sturm28.htm
So basically, Freeman Andy, it is possible to convert a semiautomatic weapon to full automatic.
Thank you. There appeared to be some confusion.
7.62x51: I understand that you have a fear of loonies with grenade launchers. But when it comes to passing a law, you have to ask yourself, is such a fear truly rational? People can spin scenarios all day, and some of them can be quite disturbing, even frightening. But then you sit down and try to figure out the likelihood of the scenario coming true, and you quickly realize that there are a great many other things that are more likely to happen, which may be more worth the lawmaker's time EVEN IF, someday, the low-likelihood scenario DOES occur.
If somebody is behaving recklessly with a grenade launcher, obviously endangering people, existing laws against recklessness and endangerment are enough to justify police intervention. But if you make it hard for people to get and use grenade launchers for their crazy or malevolent schemes, the schemer won't go away, and will turn to things like box cutters, or trucks of fertilizer, to get the job done.
It would seem to me that the more productive way to deal with crazies is to lessen the societal pressures that push them over the edge in the first place, or to price legal grenade launchers (or any other weapon, actually) beyond the means of a nut. There will eventually be nuts who push themselves over the edge, there will eventually be nuts with money, and there will eventually be nuts who flat-out steal whatever they need, if they can't get it any other way. No laws restricting ownership of "powerful weapons" will ever eliminate the entire risk. The question you have to ask, however, is whether there is any significant risk that is reduced by passing the law. I would expect that, in the case of the grenade launcher situation, the answer is pretty much "no." It's not the kind of thing that most people would want to own; it's more likely that the vast majority of people who would own one would treat it carefully, with respect (as the overwhelming majority of gun owners treat their weapons, for instance); anyone who would be mad enough to use one in anger could find another way to do the same damage if he didn't have the launcher; and a criminal who really felt he needed a launcher would find a way to get one, regardless of the law. Apparently, not too many criminals feel the need for grenade launchers now, or you would see more reports of grenade launcher crimes in the media, wouldn't you?
When you say, "let's have some regulation" or "let's draw a line," you need to make sure that the regulation or line can actually be effective in the real world for the intended, necessary purpose. Otherwise, those who followed your prescription would merely be asserting authority: "because we say so." And as I said in a previous post, once "authority" is established, others find ways to piggy-back further encroachments of liberty on top of it. So you have to make sure that the problem you are trying to solve is a truly serious problem, and one that, as a practical matter, cannot be solved without an assertion of authority. If there is no real need to have the law, don't enact it!
Apart from the natural human desire to "draw a line," is there a real current or potential grenade launcher threat? And is the only way to deal with it to ban private ownership of grenade launchers? If not, stick to advising people of the follo of keeping and bear grenade launchers; don't pass a law forbidding them to do so. The thinner our lawbooks, I have become convinced over several decades, the better for all of us.
Oops. In the immediately preceding post, I should have said,
"If not, stick to advising people of the FOLLY [not 'follo'] of keeping and bearing grenade launchers..."
If there are any other typos in the post, I'll let 'em slide, and I hope you will, too! 🙂
Our friend joe bears all the earmarks of a troll. He's now a fat and happy troll, from all the feeding.
Just look at his first post, which is an ad-hominem attack on Jacob, and compare it to his later whine about ad-hominem attacks.
But to return to the original topic... Is it really a good idea, tactically, for Paul to do this? The ban will sunset if no action is taken. With the Republicans a majority and the Democrats in disarray, it seems unlikely that a renewal would have gotten much momentum anyway. This may have been Bush's intent all along: talk a "reasonable" line (so as to deprive the Dems an opportunity to paint him as a bloodthirsty maniac who thinks everyone should have a rocket launcher blah blah blah) while intending to do absolutely nothing, knowing that the Repubs in Congress will almost certainly keep him from having to take any action. I agree 100% with Paul's intentions, but I think he may be kicking a hornet's nest.
Actually Doug, I've been taken aback by some of the anti-gun owner propaganda I've seen. I hope you've all noticed that I haven't engaged in that type of behavior in my posts.
But the fact that demonizing arguments get used in support of a cause doesn't mean that the cause is based on a demonic view of one's opponents. In general, it is gun supporters who blame gun violence on bad people, and gun controllers who blame it on the presence of guns. This seems to imply that gun controllers base their position on the idea that the proliferation of guns promotes violent behavior, not on the idea that gun owners are violent people. I think the cartoons you point to are evidence of a tactic, not a philosophy.
And when you consider the "gun controllers want to put white Christian males in concentration camps," "Hitler started with gun control" arguments, I'd hardly say the gun controllers are alone in their tendency to make this issue personal.
None of which is relevant to the issue of whether certain firearms are too dangerous to allow them to be in circulation.
> So basically, Freeman Andy, it is possible to convert a semiautomatic weapon to full automatic.
Huh? I said that one can build a full auto and use the barrel from (for example) a bolt-action rifle. Heck - one can use ANY tube of the appropriate diameter (and strength). In the same way, one can use a piece of wood from any source for the stock.
Suppose I use that I use a tube from a car and wood from a table - does Joe think that I've converted a car and a table into a machine gun?
34 NFA bans such illegal manufacture. It also treats anything that can be used to convert, or is convertable, as if it was a machine gun.
However, 34 NFA doesn't ban table legs, tubes, blocks of wood/metal, or cause them to be regulated as machine guns, even though they can be used to make machine guns. It also doesn't regulate metal working tools.
Does Joe think that this is a loophole that should be closed?
The law is silly and harmful for a number of reasons. I purchased a Chinese SKS a few years ago (before the ban) because it was cheap, reliable and I figured it would be good for home defense. Why do you need semiautomatic weapons? Well in case you miss the first time. In any case the law did not affect semiautomatic weapons in general, just the 'scary' looking ones.
The weapon I purchased came with a bayonet attached - standard issue for the weapon. (This to me is also a benefit for a home defense weapon - if I don't succeed in scaring away a burglar by brandishing the gun, it's still formidable even unloaded). After the ban when into effect I noticed they were sold without the bayonet attached (the bayonet was sold separately or alongside the gun in the same box) and was told it was a consequence of the assault weapons ban. I guess that must be in response to all the drive by bayonettings we hear about in the news...
Jacob,
You seem to be working feverishly to maintain the same illusion embedded the law itself: that there is no difference between banning weapons with military capabilities, and banning weapons without such capabilities, but that look scary. Would you support a better written ban, that includes language about firing mechanisms that can readily be filed down to allow auto-fire?
Of course not. So drop the "poorly written" facade. There is an honest (though looney, IMO) argument to be made that citizens should be able to own military hardware. If you find your true beliefs too embarrassing to argue, maybe they need a second look.
I own an SKS, not too impressed with it. What scares the shit out of elected officials is my 30-06 scoped rifle and the millions like it owned by freedom loving deerhunters like Uncle Joe and Grandpa Bill.
This law sucks as it is just a precendant the totatalitarians can build off.
New theory: Iraq was unfree not because its citizens owned guns, but because its citizens owned underpowered, innacurate pieces of commie trash. A potential army of trained snipers is what keeps us free.
When the antiwar libertarians help elect a Democrat into office in 2004 or 2008, watch out for HCI totalitiarians trying to snag your deer riftle as a "weapon of mass destruction."
"When the antiwar libertarians help elect a Democrat into office in 2004 or 2008, watch out for HCI totalitiarians trying to snag your deer riftle as a "weapon of mass destruction.""
Bush is a Republican and is trying to snag weapons out of your hands already. Not to mention, Ron Paul is the only Republican I have heard about trying to get the President to change his mind. And if you think that the Republicans are so much better than the Democrats, you are very mistaken. They are all bad.
hey --
the day where the hunting rifle with excellent optics becomes illegal when it'll be termed "sniper's weapon" or some such. you know, the semantic engineering professionals that gave us "assult rifle", "diversity = tolerance = relativism = straight white males suck", speech codes, and "it takes a village" will find some sort of way to get non-hunters to fear the hunting rifle.
then a shotgun will get a funny name. then we can go hunting and maybe give the deer a heart attack by yelling at it. or something. maybe sending it a strong letter.
cheers,
drf
"Bush is a Republican and is trying to snag weapons out of your hands already."
He is just planning on renewing the existing law. And he is getting flak from gun owners, which are part of his base, and from members of his Party. He will probably not renew, get props from gun owners and tell the Leftists - "hey I tried." Just politcs. The rest your post is just adolesent ranting. We live in a real world here.
Joe says there is an "honest (but looney..." argument to be made that citizens have the right to own military weapons (under the 2nd Amendment).
I agree with the "honest" part, but why "looney"? The original conception of this country was that citizens would be able to defend it themselves, occasionally forming into militias as circumstances required. We were cautioned against having standing armies of full-time soldiers, and in fact the constitution puts a number of roadblocks in the way of such permanent military forces (neatly sidestepped in the 20th century thanks to the ongoing "cold war," of course).
If the citizens are to be able to defend themselves, either against invaders or a powerful government gone bad, they need weaponry that can put them on an equal footing with the adversary, just as the revolutionary war musket was the "assault rifle" of its day, used by professional soldiers and private citizens alike.
To me, the above seems like common sense. Why would someone object to it, or call it "looney," I wonder?
Bush can only sign a renewal if a bill doing so reaches his desk . . . you think the House is going to do that?
> Would you support a better written ban, that includes language about firing mechanisms that can readily be filed down to allow auto-fire?
That law would be 34 NFA, which regulates all "readily converted" guns exactly like machine guns. (That's 34, as in 1934.) In other words, the readily converted argument for the AW ban was/is a complete sham.
There are two reasons for presenting that argument - ignorance and malice.
No, there are no readily/easily converted guns for sale, now, or before the AW ban, as something else. I've got $5k waiting for someone to demonstrate otherwise.
I'll agree that this is "just politics", but it's just *stupid* politics, to tick off your supporters, in order to win points with people who hate your guts. That Bush might think this is good politics, in the face of all evidence to the contrary, I attribute to the wishful thinking common to Republicans who WANT to believe that they can support gun control, and pay no price.
What is truly offensive about the '94 ban is just this: It is, to my knowlege, the very first federal law in which Congress presumes to have the authority to actually ban firearms. Yes, they've banned them before, but in previous bans they in effect acknowleged that they were over-reaching their authority, by disguising the ban as an exercise of their taxing power.
But the '94 ban was different, it does not pretend to be something else. They just went ahead and banned 'em, without any smoke and mirrors. THIS vice didn't feel the need to pay tribute to virtue, as the expression goes. Gun control, with that bill, changed from something Congress knew it had no authority to do, (But shamefully did anyway.) to something even the folks who thought it was a bad idea believed was within their power. A VERY nasty development.
Why is it looney to allow people to own grenade launchers and SAMs? First of all, there's the public safety argument. Most reasonable people will assign the safety of large numbers of people a pretty high place on the values list. In order to overcome this forehead slappingly obvious issue, there needs to be a pretty damn strong counter argument.
The one heard most often is that citizens need to be able to form militias so they can weild military power. Unfortunately, you have militias confused with gangs. Militias were never bodies formed spontaneously by private citizens on their own initiative - they were called into being by the government, with the captain of the militia often elected at town meeting. (Aha, what about Concord and Lexington? In that case, the body calling the people together was a government-in-waiting. The call to arms was put out by the revolutionary forces in Boston, who later became the government. It was a matter of the people recognizing a new government, not acting on their own. If you're calling for the violent overthrow of the government, fine, but you are committing treason against the USA, just as sure as the Patriots were committing treason against the Crown.) A group of people who take it on themselves to condemn a man as guilty is not a jury; it's a lynch mob. A group of people who take up arms on their own is not a militia; it's a gang.
In musket days, there was no distinction between military weaponry and the type owned by private citizens, so it's silly to pretend that the founders answered the question of what type of arms people were entitled to own. (Question: can anyone tell me if private individuals were allowed to own cannon and cannonballs? Was their ownership different on ships vs. on land?) Also, the private ownership of "military" arms, even if they had been distinguishable from "personal" arms, occured within the context of private individuals being expected to provide the nation's military capability, including its armament. This policy was abandoned because it was a pathetic failure. The gun ownership regime of the day ensured that the military forces would have access to the weapons they needed to do their job. So do today's.
Bottom line: we don't let individuals own SAMs and MOABs because it is too dangerous to do so. Do automatic weapons or high capacity clips fit into this category? That's a reasonable topic for debate. The idea that we should be able to own 155mm artillery just in case a group of private citizens decides they gotta kill some US military is most certainly not reasonable, outside of revolutionary conspiracy circles.
Joe-
In california the HK PSG-1 is a banned AW. Do you really think people are going to be filing down the sears on ten thousand dollar collectors items?
Fact is, that it is a very, very limited number of weapons where this is even close to achievable. Additionally there is no correlation between what is banned and what can be converted. The fact is the weapons are baned because they have "scary" features and the polaticians can make hay with this kind of legislation to a portion of the voting population that doesn't bother to understand (thats you joe)
"I'll agree that this is "just politics", but it's just *stupid* politics, to tick off your supporters, in order to win points with people who hate your guts."
But Brett, this isn't about Bush gaining the votes of die-hard antigun types, anymore than the minorities standing on the stage at the 2000 RNC convention were there to gain minority votes. Both are an appeal to moderate, suburban voters who are possible Bush voters, as long as they're convinced he isn't a scary racist/gun nut.
Andy and 7.62:
I'll plead agnosticism on whether the law is well-or poorly-written in regards to distinguishing between military hardware and norma weaponry. Frankly, I've heard a lot of arguments that it's not. (The bayonet ban - what the hell is that?)
My point is that, just as the bill fails to distinguish between the two types of weaponry, so does Mr. Sullum. The only difference I can see is that a lot of the people who support the bill blur the line unknowingly, while Mr. Sullum seems to have adopting this fudging as a deliberate strategy. Dishonest.
Andy,
Congratulations on the footnote.
I seem to recall reading about plans circulating among criminals in Britian for how to build a submachine gun out a bicycle pump and a few other common items. It's really not hard to make an automatic weapon with parts you can find at your local home depot, and some primitive machine tools. It might not be quality stuff, but if you're bent on one mad act of destruction, there's a lot of options at your disposal, the most destructive of which don't even involve firearms. Let's give collectors and shooters a way to practice their hobby in peace, and stop pretending we're one feel good law away from a perfect society.
Look Grover Norquist is wrong. This is lousy principles, but its great politics. The renewal will never make it through Congress so Bush gets the best of both worlds -- the assault weapons ban disappears but the Democrats and the media won't be able to use it as an issue against him (and the bottom line is regardless of all the arguments here, the assault weapons ban is popular with voters Bush needs for reelection -- that it was stupid and pointless is beside the point).
Ok, I read some of these posts and went out in my backyard to test something with my Glock 17 9mm. I took one clip with a 17 rd capacity and 2 clips with 10 rd capacity with me. It took me roughly 5 seconds more to fire off 10 rds change the clip and fire off 10 more rounds with decent accuracy than it did to fire 17 out of the 17 rd clip. Not a huge difference. Then I took out my new SAR-1 AK out and tried the same test with with 3 10 rd clips and 1 30 rd clip. The time difference was 10 seconds. Still not that huge of a difference.
Statement: The high capacity clip ban has little impact on damage performance and therefore has little validity. That aspect at the least should not be renewed.
As one who has shot a fully automatic weapon, it is a rush but I prefer burst fire or single fire to FA (fully auto). Fully auto only has the advantage of laying down better surpressive fire or dealing better damage to large grouped forces. Personally, I think that the whole law should not be renewed just from personal experience.
Say what you want about which guns are more or less deadly, but let me tell all of you that i dont beleive that its anyones business with which gun i am defending my own life with. if you dont plan on robbing my home, then you wont ever see my ak-47. and if you do plan on breaking into my house, just be happy knowing that i wont have to reload.
Notice that Joe dosn't know much about firearms. I have friends that think gun control is a good idea guess what they don't own guns. My point is that I think most gun control supporters don't have experience with firearms, but their ''knowlege'' of so called cop killer bullets, assult weapons, and saturday night specials comes from emotion.
Listen, above all, the government has to assume that with an assult rifle or RPG or other mass casualty weapon, you're going to use it. This is against the very basis of our judicial system. We are supposedly always presumed innocent. Also, the government in my opinion has no right to regulate what YOU buy with YOUR money. Your work and pay taxes so the gov't can print you money, not control how you spend it. Freedom doesn't mean freedom minus safety.
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