Brooklyn's Whole Foods Opens in a Location That Sat Vacant for 132 Years. Are Locals "Freaked Out"?

In 2012, Kennedy and I made a video (click above) poking some fun at the community opposition to the building of a new Whole Foods grocery store in Brooklyn—an example of the anti-development impulse taken to the point of logical absurdity. 

A few weeks ago, Brooklyn's Whole Foods had its grand opening, which The New Yorker took as an opportunity to reflect on how gentrification and the opening of high-end supermarkets are a mixed bag for cities. In an article Brooklyn's busy new Whole Foods |||titled, “A Whole Foods Grows in Brooklyn,” Elizabeth Greenspan wrote: 

Abby Subak, the director of Arts Gowanus, said her group decided to work with Whole Foods to reach its shoppers, who might include art buyers and supporters. But she said the group is treading “a fine line”: it wants to broaden the audience for Gowanus’s artists, but it doesn’t want to promote big development. “The concern is that, by collaborating, we are perceived as endorsing development,” Subak said. “We are not endorsing big-box development or luxury development.”

She has good reason to be sensitive. As in a lot of communities Whole Foods is eying, development is already transforming Gowanus. In addition to the new grocery store, a seven-hundred-unit condominium building is breaking ground. “People are freaked out,” Subak said. Residents have protested against both of these projects, part of a broader debate over how to develop Gowanus sustainably and inclusively.

Is the value of building a grocery store on an desolate street dotted with storage facilities, gas stations, and gated warehouses—on a lot that’s been vacant for 132 years—really something worth debating? Are Brooklyn residents “'freaked out'”?  As Kennedy and I discovered, not really.

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  • The Late P Brooks||

    it wants to broaden the audience for Gowanus’s artists, but it doesn’t want to promote big development.

    It's New York City, for fuck's sake.

  • playa manhattan||

    What is gow anus?

  • Francisco d Anconia||

    I think it's this if you're Mick Dundee.

  • IceTrey||

    It's what you get from sitting on the coach for too long playing Gears of War.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    They're sticking it to the man.

    Now STFU and give 'em that grant.

  • Live Free or Diet||

    Yeah, the lot's only been empty since 1882, what's the big rush to fill it?

  • The Late P Brooks||

    In addition to the new grocery store, a seven-hundred-unit condominium building is breaking ground. “People are freaked out,” Subak said. Residents have protested against both of these projects, part of a broader debate over how to develop Gowanus sustainably and inclusively.

    The only thing more abhorrent than a lack of affordable housing is the horrifying spectre of affordable housing in your neighborhood.

  • Bobarian||

    It isn't the affordable housing so much, as the people who live in the affordable housing...

  • Dave Keays||

    Unfortunately, it is both.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    Nah, the last thing in the world that poverty pimps want is an end to poverty their gravy train.

  • Brandybuck||

    A long time ago in a land far away, it was conservatives who hated change and progressives who embraced it. In fact, that's sort of what "progressive" means. But today it's the progressives who shit their pants every time some change happens in the world.

  • ||

    I once pointed this out to my rather hippie-ish, leftist aunt. She was complaining about small business in the nearby small city being displaced by Wal-Mart. I asked her if she realized she was being the textbook definition of "conservative". She didn't have a lot to say to that.

  • John C. Randolph||

    Did she call you a racist?

    -jcr

  • Carnival||

    What the Hell are you talking about? I am all for bashing Progressives, but really, at least try and keep yourself a little grounded in reality.

    Neither conservatives nor progressives are definitively for or against change. They hate any change that reduces their power, and embrace any change that strengthens their grip.

    Obamacare, the NSA dragnet and marijuana legalization are all pretty big "progressive changes."

    If you're going to bash the party you don't like, that's fine, but at least do us the courtesy of trying to engage in something a little bit more thought provoking then knee-jerk reactions.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    I think he's talking about the names "conservative" and "progressive" having strayed far from their original meanings.

  • Almanian!||

    "If you're going to bash the party you don't like, that's fine, but at least do us the courtesy of trying to engage in something a little bit more thought provoking then knee-jerk reactions."

    You first

  • VG Zaytsev||

    Obamacare, the NSA dragnet and marijuana legalization are all pretty big "progressive changes."

    Obamacare is a half assed implementation of a 150 year old idea. The survelliance state is even older. Progressives do not support marijuana legalization.

    But other than that....

  • John C. Randolph||

    The people who call themselves "progressive" today are actually what I call Oppressives. Their only interest is in expanding the power of the state.

    -jcr

  • Atanarjuat||

    It's New York City, for fuck's sake.

    That was my first thought. You hate development, but live in one of the world's largest cities? They'd probably be glad to have you (at first, anyway) in Hickory, NC.

  • MJGreen||

    But they're real New Yorkers who speak for the real New York. I mean, they've been there for five or six years, at least!

  • Austrian Anarchy||

    New Yorkers sure seem to treasure their gray space.

  • jester||

    Gray areas? There are no gray areas. It's all left, right, left, right...

  • Franco Luke Garzo||

    To be fair, as a Brooklynite most people don't give a shit about this stuff either way.

    Half the people feel compelled to answer direct questions the hack leftist way, but n0 one really means it on these type of issues anyways.

  • Atanarjuat||

    At least it's no longer a food desert!

  • jester||

    At least there's no longer a beer desert. Whole Foods at least can be credited with taking microbrews seriously. But then again, a lot of places are taking microbrews seriously now.
    Food desert? What is a food desert? Who the fuck cares?

  • ||

    Who the fuck cares?

    Left wingers who also oppose food store development.

  • Sevo||

    Can't have a food desert if you let grocery stores open.
    Kinda like poor people; if there weren't any, proggies would have to invent them.

  • playa manhattan||

    Would have to? I would say done and done.

  • CE||

    They oppose Whole Foods in particular because the owner is a libertarian. But they all shop there.

  • pan fried wylie||

    What is a food desert?

    Actual deserts, of which i doubt anyone complaining about "food deserts" has any real experience with.

  • Live Free or Diet||

    Strawberry shortcake?

    Oh, I thought you said food dessert!

  • ||

    It's just like with the rhino hunting permits in Namibia I linked to in another thread: progs aren't interested in a solution to a problem if it isn't the solution that A. satisfies their dogmatic belief that government is absolutely necessary to solve problems and B. allows behavior or action that offends their sensibilities.

    In this case capitalism and profit-seeking is abhorrent so it must be opposed even if it does provide affordable housing and groceries to a neighborhood.

  • ||

    There is only one solution, their solution. Whether it works or not is irrelevant. Whether a different solution works or not is irrelevant. Remember, actions and results mean nothing. Only words and (stated) intentions matter. They have no interest in solving anything. They only want to implement their solutions, because their solutions inevitably harm someone or something that they hate. Whether they help anyone is beside the point.

  • Derpetologist||

    But Sam Seder says only progs have solutions:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SE9vt6CryHo

  • RightNut||

    -10 for not knowing what Feudalism is.

    -20 for "never existed so can't exist"

    -30 for SOMALIA==LIBERTARIAN PARADISE.

    Total grade 40, F

  • C. Anacreon||

    True to his name, Sam Seder has left his brain empty awaiting the prophet Elijah

  • Jon Lester||

    He really isn't aging well.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    They only want to implement their solutions, because their solutions inevitably harm someone or something that they hate. Whether they help anyone is beside the point.

    Sounds a lot like the asshats at redstate.

  • Heedless||

    This is the first time I've ever seen Whole Foods accused of offering affordable groceries.

  • ||

    Rand Paul defends himself in WSJ letter

    Edward Snowden broke the law. There are penalties for breaking the law, and I believe he should be prosecuted. I do not overlook or believe our country should condone people who have access to military secrets to reveal those secrets.

    Okay, I can accept that.

    For advocates of throwing the book at Mr. Snowden, we should ask: Are they going to ignore the perjury of Director of National Intelligence James Clapper? Mr. Clapper broke the law when he lied to Congress. So an important question, ignored by advocates of frontier justice for Mr. Snowden, is do they seek clemency for James Clapper?

    I suffer condemnation by the Journal for expressing the opinion that a death sentence or life in prison is not the appropriate sentence for Mr. Snowden. The Journal claims I "exaggerate" the possible sentence. Mr. Snowden's accusers claim he violated the Espionage Act of 1917 for which the penalty is, indeed, death or life in prison. Senators such as Dianne Feinstein, former officials John Bolton and Ralph Peters, and even Speaker John Boehner, have accused Mr. Snowden of "treason," a crime which is indeed punishable by death.

    ...I have not argued, as you allege, that Mr. Snowden is a hero. I have stated that history will decide.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    I have some coworkers who pretty openly state they think he should be droned or have his car blown up, etc.

    To be fair, they do have a personal reason to hate him... his actions have made getting a clearance about 10x more tedious and time-consuming.

  • jester||

    No they don't. If you work for the man, hey, all bets are off. Time they get a dose of their own treatment for others.

  • Acosmist||

    They don't have a personal reason? Huh?!

  • Ted S.||

    Fuck them. They're government workers.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    Unfortunately, the way things are set up right now, 99% of mathematicians not on Wall St. are govt workers, directly or indirectly.

  • SIV||

    Just can't cut it as actuaries so they go on the dole.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    Loads of actuaries work for govt too, especially if you count those who are just there to satisfy SarbOx regulations.

    No offense to any actuaries out there, but I'd probably gouge my eyes out within a month of working as one. And I say that as someone who passed the first two actuarial exams on the way to grad school as a backup.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    IOW, there's not much actual value in being a mathematician.

  • General Butt Naked||

    But math is hard, therefore they should get paid more than easy jobs. It's simple logic, dude.

  • The Knarf Yenrab||

    Philosophy is hard, but Spinoza got paid to grind lenses. What would the world be like if the last couple of generations of intellectuals spent a few hours a day learning the wisdom of market or even manual labor?

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    I was referring to the addiction of academia to govt funding and govt taking over many other roles that commonly employ mathematicians, actually....

  • General Butt Naked||

    To be fair, they do have a personal reason to hate him... his actions have made getting a clearance about 10x more tedious and time-consuming.

    If I knew anyone like that, every blog and article on the web would have about 10 crazy anarchist comments attributed to them. Real crazy shit. Like the shit I actually believe, for instance.

    "Sure, you passed the background checks but when we googled you we found that you really hate America. Bailiff, whack his peepee."

  • VG Zaytsev||

    his actions have made getting a clearance about 10x more tedious and time-consuming.

    Yeah, assholes like Rand are going to take all the fun out of being king's men.

  • SweatingGin||

    Someone posted this a few days ago, figure it's well worth the repost: Shitty Neighborhood Rallies Against Asshole Developer

  • PapayaSF||

    Ha.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    Possibly the best satire article The Onion ever wrote.

  • Lady Bertrum||

    A local grocery store is changing hands from A&P to Whole Foods in my neighborhood. The A&P was the only cheap store in our area and locals are complaining that poor people will have no where to food shop now.

    Poor people will be forced to purchase grass fed beef and organic kale. OH, THE HUMANITY!

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    Is that beef and kale similarly priced to the A&P's offerings?

  • Lady Bertrum||

    No, but there are other stores and Whole Foods provides better jobs with benefits for those same locals. Our area is gentrifying rather rapidly which has lead to an overall lower unemployment rate when compared to the rest of our state and a more stable real estate market.

  • ||

    Where in Jersey are you?

  • Lady Bertrum||

    Morristown

  • ||

    OK, I've been to Morristown. My sister went to Drew in Madison and I would visit her sometimes. It's been a long time though.

  • Lady Bertrum||

    Madison has BOTH a Whole Foods and a Trader Joes. I lived in Bernardsville for 10 years prior to moving to Morristown 3 years ago. I'm not a Jersey native but like many aspects of Jersey life.

    From what I can tell, the real Jersey A-holes are from Bergen. (just kidding);-).

  • ||

    No, as an asshole born in Bergen County and whose whole family is from Bergen County, I wholeheartedly agree. But I'm really a Connecticut asshole. I moved out of Jersey when I was four.

    North Jersey has some really, really nice parts to it. Incredibly high standard of living, excellent food, proximity to New York, what have you. I always enjoyed visiting when I was a kid (which was a lot).

  • General Butt Naked||

    Overpriced food and no guns. Sounds like a real paradise.

  • SIV||

    Do any poor people still pay for their own food?

  • jester||

    Yes. They sell pity to the American people. The American people through their elected officials purchase that pity at a premium and everyone is happy with their share of pity stock.
    They are salespeople. That's an age old and honorable profession.

  • jester||

    Except that in this case, they are crony capitalists that prey on the government to insure their wages.

  • lap83||

    "locals are complaining that poor people will have no where to food shop now."

    They do have a point. I love Whole Foods, but I'm currently unemployed (hopefully temporarily) and going to school. I would be fucking insane to buy my groceries there. Once in awhile I treat myself, but there's a reason it's nicknamed Whole Paycheck.

  • Lady Bertrum||

    We have other possibly less convenient but still accessible stores including a Stop & Shop, ACME, and Shop Rite.

    My point was "locals" will always find a reason to bitch and an argument against any change they prefer not be changed regardless of economic and demographic needs.

  • Whahappan?||

    I have to agree, and if I may say as central Jersey Native, ShopRite rocks.

  • Lady Bertrum||

    lap83 -

    Good luck in the job search. I hope the unemployment is of short duration.

  • prolefeed||

    You mean there's a place with no walmart nearby?

  • Rhywun||

    Well, there's "New York City".

  • Fluffy||

    Residents have protested against both of these projects, part of a broader debate over how to develop Gowanus sustainably and inclusively.

    What they mean is that they have deliberately sought out a shithole to live in, because it's cheap.

    If people who are too competent and effective at living move into their shithole, it might not be a shithole any more, and then they'd have to move out, because they wouldn't be able to afford to live there any more.

    When they say they want a place "developed inclusively", what they mean is they're only willing to allow the place to no longer be a shithole if they can be guaranteed spots in the new, non-shitty amenities at the old, shithole price.

    It doesn't occur to them that the better way to solve their housing price issues isn't to move into a shithole and try to keep it a shithole, but instead to encourage so much development that there are nice places to live that are still cheap. And in a way, I sympathize with them. They know damn well hoping for that much development to be permitted is a pipe dream, so they do what they CAN do, namely, extort and destroy.

  • SusanM||

    Does cheap really equal shithole, though?

  • Jordan||

    In large cities like NYC? Yes. Not so much everywhere else.

  • ||

    Not if you know what you're doing, but most people don't. My rent when I lived on the Upper East Side was insanely, you-won't-believe-me low, but that was because I specifically and stubbornly forced my way outside the apartment rental placement companies cartel. Most schmucks trying to find a cheap apartment won't know how to do that.

  • Ted S.||

    You got some old lady's rent-controlled apartment? ;-)

  • ||

    Nope. That would be cheating. No rent control involved.

  • CE||

    You moved in with her?

  • ||

    I married her. Genius, right?

  • Ayn Random Variation||

    If it wasn't rent control related then it had to be by renting a place someone else had bought decades earlier and had no mortgage.
    Or bribery, extortion or murder.

  • ||

    Nope, just a completely incompetent and disinterested management company combined with avoiding the rental placement agencies and their "fees" by going directly to the source, and very fortuitous timing. 3-room apartment with a kitchen as big as the other two rooms for less per month than it costs to buy three new 16G iPad Airs. I told you you wouldn't believe me.

  • Ayn Random Variation||

    The good timing and disinterested management company would be the key factors.
    I once tried to find an apt in Hoboken without using the extortion agencies; I finally gave up and moved to JC.
    I'm in awe of you for pulling it off in a desirable part of the city.

  • ||

    84th and York, baby. One block away from Gracie Mansion. One of my greatest apartment scores of all time. I had a pretty epic one here in Seattle, but that one only saved me about $800/month for a year.

  • Freedom Frog||

    Gowanus hasn't been cheap in a long time actually. Carroll Gardens to the left, Park Slope to the right.

    I moved to Bay Ridge from Carroll Gardens 18 months ago because that geographic part of Brooklyn is pretty expensive to sayvthe least.

    Not that I necessarily disagree with what you're saying though.

  • Rhywun||

    I'm in Bay Ridge too - I like it here but damn we could use a Whole Foods or well any decent supermarket.

    I remember when Gowanus was a shithole - I looked at an apartment there about 15 years ago.

  • Freedom Frog||

    The CTown (5th & BR Pkwy) by me isn't terrible. Although I like to use the Mom and Pops for produce. Cheaper and better quality. Kinda wish there was a legit butcher shop within a few blocks though.

    Best part of Bay Ridge for me is the safety and the rent is reasonable for BK.

  • Rhywun||

    The CTown (5th & BR Pkwy) by me isn't terrible.

    Been meaning to check that out - just found it the other day and it's only a few blocks from me. But even by NY standards I have found the food shopping in this neighborhood to be appalling. Though I do like it here for the other reasons you mentioned.

  • CE||

    Really. Who hates it when their neighborhood gets better?

  • Ayn Random Variation||

    "Really. Who hates it when their neighborhood gets better?"

    If you're not from NY, it won't make sense to you. Be happy that you'll never know the horror of seeing a "Luxury Lofts for Sale! Call Bethany Whiteingale at XXX....." sign outside your bldg.

  • bassjoe||

    You haven't been to Oakland, apparently. The all around stupidity of the anti gentrification folks is mind boggling. "We want better public services but don't you DARE do anything that will increase the tax base to pay for said services."

  • Wasteland Wanderer||

    Hipsters.

  • Almanian!||

    Anybody else already tired as FUCK of Kevin Hart? When are his 15 minutes up? Fuck.

  • ||

    I had never heard of him until he started appearing in annoying TV spots for movies.

    Is he supposed to be the poor man's Chris Rock?

  • Warrren||

    He's the funniest man in America!

  • Freedom Frog||

    A Black man's Seth Rogan, where he'll be in every fucking movie for the next 3 years.

    I suppose this works for Paul Rudd and Jonah Hill too.

  • Killaz||

    'You're white. You don't fight!'

    Warning to Audience: acquiring your cultural perspective from Hollywood can get you seriously dead.

  • Almanian!||

    In a somewhat-related post, some Detroit-area residents learned nothing from the Great Recession and near-death experience of the US automakers....SHOCKER!

    http://www.detroitnews.com/art.....ow?odyssey

    +lulz for the massive turnout!

  • SusanM||

    Interesting bit from one of the commentators. Don't know if it's factually true but what about the overall sentiment?

    Where the Germans and Asians are kicking us is their respect for the skilled trades and those that work with their hands.

  • Irish||

    Which Asians are those? Because I've been to Thailand, Myanmar, and China and in most of the places I went there didn't seem to be many 'skilled trades.' I also don't know how he can claim that a place like Japan has 'respect for the skilled trades' when a large number of Japanese cars are actually produced in America because the companies can pay the workers less.

  • SusanM||

    It's because of those "evil" right-to-work states.

    But, do you think that American culture looks down on tradespeople as opposed to people with college degrees?

  • Irish||

    But, do you think that American culture looks down on tradespeople as opposed to people with college degrees?

    He might actually have a valid point here. I think there area an awful lot of well paying trade jobs that Americans simply don't do because too many people go to college.

    If fewer people got useless college degrees and became welders instead, I do think the American economy would be in much better shape.

  • SusanM||

    I'm with that. I know a lot of hairstylists who make damn fine money - but if you suggest someone taking up that profession you get a lot of icky-faces.

  • Drake||

    I liked Mike Rowe's appearance on the Independents.

  • LynchPin1477||

    do you think that American culture looks down on tradespeople as opposed to people with college degrees?

    Yes, absolutely. For decades now the mantra has been "if you want a good job, you have to go to college." And if you are even a halfway decent student in high school, college is sold very, very strongly as the way to prosperity. The implicit (though not always) implication is that jobs that don't require a college degree aren't "good jobs" and people who don't go to college aren't very smart.

    That is starting to change, a little, but by-in-large college is still sold as the path to prosperity.

  • SusanM||

    I think people are starting to figure out that while those big paying jobs may need a degree, a degree doesn't guarantee those jobs. But people are still working through the "degree entitles one to a big job" stage still.

  • Killaz||

    I overheard two young women who had not seen each other since they graduated from high school last spring. One was in trade school, I did not catch what skill, but she said she decided not to go to college because her older sister had graduated a few years ago from a good school and was still waiting tables. I think they are starting to catch on.

  • LarryA||

    But, do you think that American culture looks down on tradespeople as opposed to people with college degrees?
    "Any child not college bound is 'left behind.'"

  • Irish||

    The other issue that tends to get left out is that there still are very good auto making areas of the United States. It's just that they're all in the South.

  • ||

    Right? For all their talk about how heartless and divisive the GOP is for their lack of sympathy for Detroit and the Rust Belt, progressives sure resent the fact that good manufacturing jobs are going into South Carolina, Alabama, Tennessee, and Georgia.

  • Agammamon||

    Of course they do - those jobs *belong* to the Rust Belt. Its just not fair that someone else comes along willing to do the job for a fraction of the price.

  • LynchPin1477||

    In their minds, they belong to the unions. They view non-union jobs as inherently exploitative and wrong.

  • SIV||

    Christfag states

  • lap83||

    What the commentator really means is "I, like, know some Germans and Asians and they are, like, totally hard workers and stuff"

  • Agammamon||

    I think what they mean is that the Germans are not as disparaging of those without higher education degrees - voctech is a perfectly legitimate educational path outside the US.

  • OneOut||

    Germany has some tax structures that actually give incentive for companies, and their workers, to build stuff in Germany.

  • Sidd Finch||

    I don't know about Asia, but Germany is big into tracking and apprenticeships and stuff.

  • Irish||

    Which are both great ideas that should be adopted here.

    The irony is that things like apprenticeships, which could help low income individuals a lot, are opposed by the 'everyone needs to go to college!' type of progressive...you know, the exact sort of person who pretends to be helping the poor.

  • Sevo||

    "The irony is that things like apprenticeships, which could help low income individuals a lot, are opposed by the 'everyone needs to go to college!' type of progressive...you know, the exact sort of person who pretends to be helping the poor."

    Gotta ask if the German apprenticeships are paid 'minimum wage'.

  • ||

    Sorry, bit late to the party.

    It's much less. I trained in insurance between 1991 and 1994 and my salary went up from 1.100 to 1.400 Deutschmarks over that period. Divide by 2 and you have the approximate dollar amount.

    That was top-of-the-range for apprentices though. A friend trained in the hotel business and worked around 60 hours / week for 400 DM.

    It's a trade-off, really. In the beginning you cost money because you are a bumbling fool who needs his hand held all the time by much more qualified people. Once you get better the company recoups its investment by underpaying you.

    And yes, apprenticeship isn't looked down on in Germany at all. Quite the contrary. I was strongly encouraged to learn a trade before going to college and employers will this as a large plus on your resume.

  • ||

    "employers will see this".

    Dammit. Not even drunk yet.

  • Cdr Lytton||

    Signs in the crowd included: “No more two-tier or three-tier wages, we are all equals,”

    Uhm, ok. I don't think that the rank & file will like what those single tier wages would be though.

  • playa manhattan||

    Yep. The tiered system was implemented specifically so that the existing workers could keep their unsustainably high levels of compensation at the expense of new hires. Because union brotherhood or something.

  • Agammamon||

    Great news everybody! We've decided to pay everyone in the company the same amount of money, no matter what their job.

    OK, all you line workers, you'll see an increase in your paycheck of about 30 dollars . . . a year.

    Oh, the CEO and all the other people who actually know how to run the *company* (rather than simply knowing how to assemble cars) have jumped ship and no-one qualified is applying for their positions, so you're all fired.

  • SusanM||

    I can see your pint but in this case, if they really knew how to run the company would they be asking for government bailouts.

  • OneOut||

    yes

  • The Late P Brooks||

    If Guvmint Moteurs is profitable, what portion of that "profit" is directly attributable to manufacturing operations in the state of Michigan?

  • Sevo||

    Peripheral:
    One more proggy who really hates to see people with jobs:
    "Activist at vanguard of restaurant workers' rights"
    What the headline really mean is 'busy-body who is willing to tell other people what they should do with their money'.
    http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/.....135081.php

  • Freedom Frog||

    I work in the bar/restaurant in Brooklyn. Have for the past 7 years. Full time, this is what I do.

    This lady really doesnt how the industry works. Like, no clue. Just another Pinko spouting nonsense a la Elaine's Commie BF in the episode where Kramer plays a department store Santa.

  • Sevo||

    Freedom Frog|1.12.14 @ 7:04PM|#
    "I work in the bar/restaurant in Brooklyn. Have for the past 7 years. Full time, this is what I do."

    I don't but I have acquaintances who work in them and others who own/manage them.
    It seems to be a tough bizz, but it's also one where demonstrated skill will get you promoted as opposed to requiring a degree.
    The only owner I know who is 'rich' is a Mickey D's franchise owner who got in a long time ago and worked his ass off running the ones he had and bought additional locations.

  • playa manhattan||

    An acquaintance of mine is about $10 million in the red with all of his restaurants. Outstanding places to eat, but just not profitable.

  • Sevo||

    I know a couple of non-franchise owners in SF, and I'm not close enough to them to know the details, but none own a home and they all work hours I wouldn't.

  • playa manhattan||

    The guy I know paid $9 million for an ocean view location, probably spent close to another million renovating, hired celebrity chef(s), and had a whole bunch of other expenses before ever opening his doors. I don't know what he was thinking. I had the best meal of my life at the place, but I fully expect the property to be bank owned soon...

  • Pompey||

    The renovation is often substantially lost money unless the proprietor does the lion's share of the shit work.

    I don't know the location but $1mm seems obscene.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    A $9million beach view (not front) restaurant is probably in 10,000-15,000 sq ft range + parking lot.

    So a million in renovations doesn't sound extreme at all.

    No way in hell would I do it but I've seen people spend a substantial fraction of that on places 1/4 as large.

  • Pompey||

    How much of the actual remodeling work did your acquaintances do and conversely how much contractor delegation was done?

    $1mm for square footage the size of a McMansion sounds obscene.

  • playa manhattan||

    Sorry. To clarify, the owner essentially demolished the building and started over from the ground up so that there was floor-to-ceiling glass. He kept 1 foundational wall so it could be called a remodel.

    Here it is:
    http://www.thestrandhousemb.co.....ry-1.shtml

  • playa manhattan||

    No parking lot. Not sure how many sq ft, but nowhere near 10,000.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    It looks really nice. I'm surprised they could do a tear down and rebuild for only a million.

  • Pompey||

    Oh wow a teardown.

  • C. Anacreon||

    That's right on the pier! Probably the most expensive spot on the Strand, I'd imagine. No wonder it cost so much.

  • playa manhattan||

    The place where he makes some real money:
    The Culinary Master Series He has well known guests chefs prepare a tasting menu about once a month, and he and the guest chef split the take (don't know the exact agreement). It sells out every time. I've been to 3 of them, and they are a great idea.

    I would just assume that he needs to be doing more of them to be profitable...

  • Pompey||

    Man he really spent that million didn't he?

    Seems like the atmosphere won't be trendy in a few years too. His website designer isn't bad either.

  • Ted S.||

    We may be losing money, but we'll make it up on volume!

  • ||

    Wonder if any of those restaurants will fall victim to a mysterious (and convenient) fire.

  • playa manhattan||

    He way overpaid for the property, so the insurance on the improvements would be a drop in the bucket.

    Needless to say, I declined to invest in his "winery".

  • Freedom Frog||

    I manage 2 spots and bartend at one one night a week. One is a massive beer garden, the other is a bar on Smith Street.

    I never went to college. Worked for Intel in NJ (now Dialogic I believe) right out of HS (temp agency to full time) in the stockroom then logistics for 5 years. Hated the corporate crap. Benefits were good, pay sucked. Spent 3 miserable years in Florida and came back up north to BK.

    After a year of this and that I became an apprentice pizza chef at a different bar. Hard work got me to barback, then bartender, and now mgr of 2 different spots in a little under 7 years.

    I love it, I found my calling as dumb as that might sound. However, the "rich" part is what gets me. At the 2 places I work at there are 4 and 5 owners. A few own multiple places, sure. IMO most of that is because running a business of this nature in NYC is insane. We get taxed, harassed and regulated like no other.

    I plan on moving to ATL in the next year. With one other reasonable person Im pretty sure I can do well down there. Grass is always greener, I know.

  • Ted S.||

    You're going to move closer to Shreeky?

  • Freedom Frog||

    One dumbass (okay, maybe a few more) in a place of what seems to have a majority of reasonable people vs living in an ocean of libtardary and Obama bootlickers like i am now is a trade I'm willing to make.

  • SIV||

    Everybody in the ATL is cool except for the Yankee transplants...oh wait.

  • playa manhattan||

    "Jayaraman has never worked in a restaurant".
    This should have been the first sentence of the article.

  • Sidd Finch||

    Words like "self-confidence," "self-reliance," "initiative," "enterprise," "optimism," etc., play little role in the liberal and leftist vocabulary. The leftist is anti-individualistic, pro-collectivist. He wants society to solve every one's problems for them, satisfy everyone's needs for them, take care of them. He is not the sort of person who has an inner sense of confidence in his ability to solve his own problems and satisfy his own needs. The leftist is antagohistic to the concept of competition because, deep inside, he feels like a loser.
  • LynchPin1477||

    I really hate people who become "activists". I remember hearing someone on the radio several years ago who was introduced as an "author and activist". I know most authors don't make a ton of money, so if this person had time to run around "activating" (or whatever) while still having enough money to live off of, chances were they were being supported by someone else. Which meant that they probably didn't have any actual experience with their chosen causes and were just spouting off uninformed BS.

    Crap, it still makes me angry.

  • Cdr Lytton||

    A little late but...

    http://www.usa.gov/Citizen/Top.....days.shtml

    Nothing. Left. To. Cut.

  • playa manhattan||

  • Cdr Lytton||

    insert joke here about pushing buttons.

  • Sevo||

    Did the Wokie learn cursive or are we still paying for the calligraphers?

  • Cdr Lytton||

    Do you really expect a creature that can rip arms right out of the sockets to have very good fine motor skills?

  • Francisco d Anconia||

    Jesus Christ on the fucking cross

  • Archduke von Pantsfan||

    Neil Young used to be cool.

    Canadian rock icon Neil Young launched a blistering attack on the Harper government and Alberta’s oil sands at a news conference on Sunday, saying that he was “shattered” after visiting a Fort McMurray industrial site he compared to the atomic bomb-devastated wreckage of Hiroshima, Japan.

    Joined on the Massey Hall stage by representatives from the Athabasca Chipewyan First Nation, Young was especially scathing in his criticism of Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s “hypocritical” administration, which Young said was ignoring science to irresponsibly drive corporate profits.

    “Canada is trading integrity for money,” said the environmentally engaged 68-year-old rocker. “That’s what’s happening under the current leadership in Canada, which is a very poor imitation of the George Bush administration in the United States and is lagging behind on the world stage. It’s an embarrassment to any Canadians.”
  • ||

    Uh, you have seen Human Highway, right? Neil's been like this for a long time.

  • Freedom Frog||

    Must be awesome to get to bitch about TWO governments, eh?

  • jester||

    You forget that Neil Young survived Hiroshima. Secondly, you forget that Neil is a Native American (Canada is part of America, but not the USA).
    Ironically, Neil uses Capitalist terms when he claims 'trading integrity for money.' But even more ironically, he fails to understand that in this case it is an example of free trade since government integrity is equal to zero and government fiat money is equal to zero. Or something like that.
    I just listen to his music. Down by the River will always be a great song.

  • Ted S.||

    I mentioned a couple of days ago how I heard a CBC news bulletin that had a report about a "study" on "obesity" in the third world, which only heard from the authors of the study, followed by a report on a study claiming that transporting oil by pipeline is safer than by rail. This report included an interview with somebody from Greenpeace to say we shouldn't be transporting oil at all.

  • Sevo||

    "This report included an interview with somebody from Greenpeace to say we shouldn't be transporting oil at all."

    Yeah, when that twit has to grow oats for the nag he rides, I'll take him seriously.

  • playa manhattan||

    Show me an environmentalist and I'll show you a hypocrite.

  • Derpetologist||

    A person who lives in a cabin in the woods is an environmentalist. A person who wants to build a cabin in the woods is a developer.

  • SusanM||

    I'm so stealing that.

  • LarryA||

    Yeah, when that twit has to grow oats for the nag he rides, I'll take him seriously.
    Acquaintance of mine had a daughter who thought horses were more environmentally friendly than cars. She got the daughter a summer job at a stable. After spending months forking hay into the front end of the herd and shoveling what came out the other end, the girl used her wages on a VW.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    I hope Neil Young will remember, Albertan man don't need him around anyhow....

  • Cdr Lytton||

    I used to laugh at the 'maybe the First Amendment only protects a physical printing press' line and today I discovered Mutual Film Corporation v. Industrial Commission of Ohio. Forgive me for being late to the party. 9-0 decision, including everyone's favorite free speech jurist Oly Holmes, that the First Amendment didn't apply to movies.

    Bonus for the childrenz arguement!

    the audiences they assemble, not of women alone nor of men alone, but together, not of adults only, but of children, make them the more insidious in corruption

  • Sevo||

    OK, I have an idea.
    We need to amend the Constitution in a very simple manner: it is not the "Bill of Rights", it becomes the "Bill of Limits".
    1. The government shall not favor any religion under any circumstances, nor shall the government limit the citizens' speech nor any other method of communication by law, regulation or otherwise.
    2. The government shall not limit the citizens' ownership of firearms or other weapons.
    3. The government shall not require direct support of military through quartering.
    4. The government shall not cause the homes, persons, conveyances, communications, trash, or other personal property of the citizens to be searched without stated reason sufficient to draw a warrant from court.
    Etc.

  • LynchPin1477||

    On the fourth, may I suggest making it clear that divulging information to a third party with the expectation that said information will not be shared with anyone else, except in ways agreed to a priori, does not remove the expectation of privacy?

  • ||

    Things will be very, very, very bad if the Broncos blow this game and Peyton can't close it.

  • BakedPenguin||

    Agreed

  • ||

    Why? The Patriots will eat the Chargers alive and then will advance to the Superbow...GOD DAMN IT

  • ||

    Luckily the Chargers stuck to their true selves and blew a golden opportunity by allowing Peyton to convert on 3rd and 17.

    Oh well, should be one of the best Championship Sundays in a while next week.

  • Ted S.||

    What about those of us who hate all four teams?

  • BakedPenguin||

    You can stop rotting for teams that lose to Tampa and Cleveland.

  • Ted S.||

    Well, It's only two more weeks until the Bundesliga season starts up again, although Bayern are going to win that at a cantor.

    It's not until Arsenhole in February that I get to watch meaningful games. :-(

  • Ted S.||

    Oh, and my team (the Packers) lost their QB for half the season. :-(

  • ||

    They would have ran away with that division and possibly gotten a first-round bye if Rodgers doesn't break that collarbone.

    I'm a Packers fan too, but I also already dislike all things San Francisco sports so I'll be rooting for Seattle and Denver.

  • Ted S.||

    The week before the injury, they were at 5-2 and looking at the scheudle, at least 11-5 really didn't seem out of the question. That might have gotten them a bye depending on the tiebreakers with Carolina.

  • BakedPenguin||

    My bad, given Ted's location, I thought he was a Bills fan.

  • Ted S.||

    You do know where the Catskills are, right?

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    Oh, and my team (the Packers) lost their QB for half the season. :-(

    So much for the much vaunted depth of the Pack. And if you want to talk about injuries, look at what happened to the Bears this year.

  • Bobarian||

    'rotting' seems appropriate.

  • BakedPenguin||

    You can stop rooting for them, also.

  • ||

    Then I guess it sucks to be you.

  • Heedless||

    If Peyton Manning loses a game, it's because he sucks. If Peyton Manning wins a game, it's because his opponent sucks.

    Here endeth the testament of the Haters of Peyton Manning.

    Forever and ever. Amen.

  • BakedPenguin||

    So you'd prefer the Broncos to cause Brady sadface? I thought you'd find especially tasty for your Seahawks to cause it.

  • ||

    Six of one, half dozen of the other. A Broncos/Seahawks Superbowl would be pretty epic.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    It might be if it were in the Safeco seismic chamber. At a neutral site I'm afraid Little Russell would be exposed for the fraud he is.

  • BakedPenguin||

    Okay, the Broncos pulled through. That was a bit too close for comfort, though. They should have nailed that one down.

  • ||

    I'm much more excited to see the Seahawks and Niners try to obliterate each other than Peyton and Brady handing the ball off repeatedly next Sunday.

  • Sevo||

    Hey, that guy Harbaugh will always bring a team ready to play for two full quarters!

  • Ted S.||

    At least is was satisfying to see him get a penalty for coming way out on the field.

  • BakedPenguin||

    I understand, but after Denver's performance against Rivers in the fourth quarter, I think there's a fair chance you'll see some passing in the Broncos - Pats game.

  • ||

    Probably. Forecast for next Sunday in Denver is 50 and sunny, so that won't be a factor--or an excuse--if Manning folds again.

    Sad Tom Brady should be even more enjoyable in the Super Bowl anyway.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    Rivers had zero success until they were behind by 17 with less than 15:00 to play. Strategy is to go into a soft bend-don't-break defense at that point.

    The muffed onside kick wasn't really the D's fault either.

  • ||

    The best part is the Seahawks are itching for revenge from the Candlestick loss, the Niners pretty much always get destroyed at CenturyLink lately, and the crowd is going to go INSANE because it's the Niners. Fun fun fun!

  • Sevo||

    Epi,
    I'm guessing it'll depend on the 9er's 'streaky' QB and whether Harbaugh gets the team to play at least *3* quarters.
    The early line has the 'Hawks at -3; we'll see.

  • Killaz||

    I can't wait to see it happen. Carolina did themselves no favors with their second half play, even the defense was not up to their high level of performance, but, Christ, not a single 49ers point was made in the first half without an officiated assist on a third down that would have been unconverted without.

  • CE||

    Techno-riche ruining San Francisco, says anti-freedom leftist:

    http://www.businessweek.com/ar.....cca-solnit

    I’m worried about poor people and people doing things in culture and activism (including climate activism and human-rights activism) that don’t pay a whole lot; working-class people—firefighters, day-care providers, street cleaners, bus drivers—are the backbone of what keeps this place running and keeps it diverse; the artists and activists have done much to shape its identity and its major contributions from the Sierra Club (founded in downtown San Francisco in 1892) to the postwar poetry explosion to queer liberation. The new tech incursion is mostly white guys with some Asian guys and some women, though few women are in power; it’s mostly libertarian in its ideology, particularly at the upper echelons; it’s anything but idealistic in those upper reaches; and it’s driving out people.

  • Sevo||

    Yeah, they're really pissed about that tech-stuff:
    "I met a guy who lives at 24th and Valencia [Street]. He says the Wi-Fi signal on the buses is so powerful that when the Google bus pulls up in front of his house, it uses all the broadband and his Wi-Fi signal crashes."

  • ||

    That...that doesn't make any sense. No Google bus wifi uses his broadband. The only possible thing that could make sense is that the G-band (presumably not N) broadcast from the bus is strong enough to interfere with his, though that is instantly and easily fixed by him changing his frequency. However, I'm going to instead go with this person being a liar, an idiot, or both, because that is much more likely.

  • Irish||

    "I met a guy who lives at 24th and Valencia [Street]. He says the Wi-Fi signal on the buses is so powerful that when the Google bus pulls up in front of his house, it uses all the broadband and his Wi-Fi signal crashes."

    That is fucking stupid. How would Google's wi-fi signal use up his broadband?

  • SusanM||

    Think she might have meant "bandwidth". Not that that improves the argument any.

  • Sevo||

    No, it doesn't.
    This is the lefty zero-sum argument taken to wildly idiotic extremes.

  • ||

    Second of all, it’s privatizing public transit. In another era, the captains of industry would have said, “OK, our workers live here, our factory is there; let’s encourage, enforce, and subsidize the improvement of public transit.”

    Yeah, um, OK, lady.

  • ||

    Mass transit that takes cars off the road and reduces greenhouse gases is good.

    Unless a private, profit-seeking entity does it, then it's evil.

    //prog logic

  • Ted S.||

    Like dollar vans or those Chinatown buses.

  • Sevo||

    If you read enough lefty-trash about the buses, the gripe is that the workers "should" live closer to where they work rather than SF. The lefties reserve the right to tell people where they should live!
    Parsed, it's simply 'I'm awright Jack', and don't you dare pay market prices for what I'm now stealing at 'rent control' numbers!
    SF cannot keep landlords from going out of the rental business (amazingly it took a state law to confirm that), and some 300 units were removed from the rental market last year, to the lefties' horror.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    In another era, the captains of industry would have said, “OK, our workers live here, our factory is there; let’s encourage, enforce, and subsidize the improvement of public transit.

    The funny thing about that quote is that he's calling for exactly the kind of public support for business that proglodytes speciously claim is happening with minimum wage employees on foodstamps.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    In another era, the captains of industry would have said, “OK, our workers live here, our factory is there; let’s encourage, enforce, and subsidize the improvement of public transit.

    The funny thing about that quote is that he's calling for exactly the kind of public support for business that proglodytes speciously claim is happening with minimum wage employees on foodstamps.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    In another era, the captains of industry would have said, “OK, our workers live here, our factory is there; let’s encourage, enforce, and subsidize the improvement of public transit.

    The funny thing about that quote is that he's calling for exactly the kind of public support for business that proglodytes speciously claim is happening with minimum wage employees on foodstamps.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    Holy shit.

  • Francisco d Anconia||

    There is a 3PM glitch and an 11PM glitch.

  • Sevo||

    VG Zaytsev|1.12.14 @ 11:03PM|#
    "Holy shit."

    Not sure that shit is holy, but a couple of brain-deads who post here try to make bullshit holy.

  • ||

    If I want to be part of the modern world I am almost forced to use Google. The large majority of the people around me use Google, so if I want to be a part of their group and know what they know, I have to use Google.

    So you are correct that people literally have a choice to use something other than Google, but realistically you are just being a jerk because you know as well as I do that Google is a monopoly and if a citizen of the United States wants to known what most other citizens of the United States know, then they have to use Google so they all share the same common reality.

    What a moron

  • Rhywun||

    Google is a monopoly

    Oh FFS.

  • Irish||

    There are no alternatives.

  • Sevo||

  • Ayn Random Variation||

    I don't think that person knows what "Google" is.

  • ||

    The comments are mostly non-retarded, which is nice.

  • Sevo||

    Link, please?

  • ||

    Huh?

  • Sevo||

    A link to the claim that the poster was 'forced to use' google.
    Did I miss it?

  • ||

    It's in the comments of the BusinessWeek article that CE posted.

  • Sevo||

    Damn threaded comments! Should have used a straight edge to chase back up.

  • Francisco d Anconia||

    It's not beyond the capabilities of technology to place the handle of the person being responded to in the header.

    Francisco d Anconia (responded to Sevo)|1.12.14 @ 11:49PM|#|–|filternamelinkcustom

    Not rocket surgery.

  • ||

    the artists and activists have done much to shape its identity

    That's nice, but how much do they actually contribute in taxes and productivity to the city?

    I'm going to go out on a limb and say the white, libertarian tech geeks make more money and thus pay more taxes than the guy painting murals with the menstrual blood of Cambodian women.

  • Sidd Finch||

    Leftists tend to hate anything that has an image of being strong, good and successful. They hate America, they hate Western civilization, they hate white males, they hate rationality. The reasons that leftists give for hating the West, etc. clearly do not correspond with their real motives. They SAY they hate the West because it is warlike, imperialistic, sexist, ethnocentric and so forth, but where these same faults appear in socialist countries or in primitive cultures, the leftist finds excuses for them, or at best he GRUDGINGLY admits that they exist; whereas he ENTHUSIASTICALLY points out (and often greatly exaggerates) these faults where they appear in Western civilization. Thus it is clear that these faults are not the leftist’s real motive for hating America and the West. He hates America and the West because they are strong and successful.
  • Derpetologist||

    Industrial Society and its Future has some good points.

  • Sidd Finch||

    It starts out pretty good, but it's obvious you're reading a lunatic by #50.

  • Irish||

    The irony is that this is one time the Unabomber was actually right. I saw that quote once on Democratic Underground and the idiots there were basically involved in a circle jerk in which they were proclaiming that if the Unabomber said such bad things about them they must be good people.

    It never occurred to them that it's possible that they're so crazy that even a psychopath like the Unabomber was justified in looking down on them.

  • Irish||

    It's also kind of hilarious that the rest of that manifesto is about how terrible the industrial revolution has been and how we should tear the whole thing down and get back to nature.

    His central point is one of agreement with the left, yet that's the only quote they pull out because it makes them look good to be opposed to the Unabomber.

  • Francisco d Anconia||

    I used to share a crash-pad with a guy who lived in Lincoln. His wife's family property bordered Uncle Ted's. He claimed he saw the feds moving in and he and a friend rode horseback to a hillside above Teddy's cabin and watched the arrest go down.

  • playa manhattan||

    Crash-pad? Were you a commercial pilot too?

  • Francisco d Anconia||

    Flew for SkyWest for 8 months. That's all it took me to realize I didn't want to do that for the rest of my life.

  • playa manhattan||

    8 months? That's the sort of thing you just leave off the resume....

  • Francisco d Anconia||

    Burned that bridge to the fucking ground, just to make sure I wouldn't be tempted to cross it again.

  • playa manhattan||

  • Francisco d Anconia||

    Sucks to be him. His airline career has less potential than mine.

  • Cdr Lytton||

    Runway half the length and 40 feet from a cliff edge? Ouch. I'm reminded of that adage about any landing you can walk away from.

  • Rhywun||

    "I’m worried about poor people..."

    Yeah, right. You probably "care" too.

  • ||

    Just realized Peyton Manning is now tied with Tim Tebow for Broncos playoff wins.

  • prolefeed||

    How the fuck does a lot stay vacant in NYC for 132 years? Isn't that valuable real estate begging to be developed?

  • Sevo||

    In SF, a whiny hag named Sue Hestor kept a lot vacant for more than a couple of years by starting legal challenges to anyone who wanted to develop the property. It became known as the "Sue Hestor Memorial Hole in the Ground".
    I'm betting NYC has many opportunities to screw up someone's efforts to make a buck.

  • Death Rock and Skull||

    Yeah, right? What was there before, a cow pasture?

  • Rhywun||

    Prolly a parking lot. The area was all industrial but of course that was long time ago. It really was a complete wasteland until a few years ago.

  • Sevo||

    No, is was a Ford-branded heavy-vehicle service facility built into a hillside, and the neighborhood changed such that the heavy vehicles no longer had free parking in that area.
    The owner had it demolished in the early 21st century hoping to catch on to the dot-com boom.
    Hestor (a lawyer) went ballistic at the time regarding any changes to accommodate those horrible 'web people'.
    It cost the owner more than it should have; it's now a Whole Foods on the ground floor and condos above.

  • ||

    How the fuck does a lot stay vacant in NYC for 132 years? Isn't that valuable real estate begging to be developed?

    You are underestimating how little actual planning goes on in urban planning departments.

    It was probably zoned for only stone cutting for 128 years...and the permits department never got around to telling the long term planning department about the 1000s of developers who have asked what can be built there and been turned away because the zoning prohibited anything anyone wanted to develop.

  • Sevo||

    "It was probably zoned for only stone cutting for 128 years.."
    I think you have it!
    You expect the planning commission to change the zoning?!
    What are you, some sort of anarchist?! Someone who lives in a bubble?!(see RamRar, below).

  • RamRar||

    I don't get it.

  • Sevo||

    RamRar|1.12.14 @ 11:43PM|#
    "I don't get it."
    From your post below, that is not surprising.

  • ||

  • Derpetologist||

    Here's the unofficial one:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mmcu-09SHY

  • Death Rock and Skull||

    Wieners, Wieners-Wieners.

  • Derpetologist||

    You bone or you die.

  • Francisco d Anconia||

    Yay, more Ygritte.

    And I'm predicting Arya is going to go absolutely badass assassin.

    Also, dragons!

    Can't fucking wait.

  • SusanJWong||

    my best friend's mother makes $82 hourly on the internet. She has been fired for 10 months but last month her paycheck was $14496 just working on the internet for a few hours. find out this here
    http://www.cash46.com

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    Sen. Mitch McConnel says the Senate needs the kind of bipartisanship which brought us Medicare, the Social Security Act, and the americans With Disabilities Act.

    From Politico

    http://www.politi.co/1gywLLI

  • General Butt Naked||

    Medicare and Medicaid were both approved with the support of about half the members of the minority.

    The Voting Rights Act of 1965 passed with the votes of 30 out of 32 members of the Republican minority.

    Only six senators voted against the Social Security Act.

    Only eight voted against the Americans With Disabilities Act.

    None of this happened by throwing these bills together in a back room, then sending them to the floor with a stopwatch running. It happened through a laborious process of persuasion and coalition-building. It took time and patience and hard work.

    Importantly, it also guaranteed that every one of these laws had stability and wouldn’t be endlessly relitigated.

    What a steaming pile of horseshit. Anyone who thinks the road to liberty runs through GOP-ville is a fucking moron. McConnel is the party.

  • PapayaSF||

    The road to socialism ran through Democrat-ville. Why couldn't the road to liberty run through GOP-ville? Fabian socialism worked. Fabian libertarianism can, too.

  • Cytotoxic||

    MUH TEAM ORANGE

    MUH PURITY

  • Cytotoxic||

    Anyone who thinks the road to liberty runs through GOP-ville is a fucking moron

    You misspelled 'forward-thinking and strategically pragmatic'.

    McConnel is the party.

    Citation needed.

  • Sidd Finch||

    Stupid Party indeed

  • Irish||

    The New Republic really has its fingers on the pulse of America:

    Ballet is in crisis because it's turning into a sport!

  • RamRar||

    Here is a critique of libertarianism:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?f.....84ZRVSI_Vk

    Responses?

  • Sevo||

    Yeah, that strawman is in need of assistance!
    Are you really that ignorant of libertarianism?

  • RamRar||

    Answer the question. If libertarianism is so wonderful, why is it a fringe idea?

  • Sidd Finch||

    How is Eugenics polling these days?

  • RamRar||

    Pretty poorly, although it has much more support among the common people than among the elite. But the difference is, eugenics is easily imaginable. It only requires an elite with the balls to do it. Libertarianism, is not. It requires that people behave fundamentally differently from the way they do in reality, that the poor, the criminals, the parasites on society, who exist now, simply cease to exist, so as not to bother anybody.

  • Sidd Finch||

    Eugenics only slightly improves the average quality of the next generation -- a tiny drop in the bucket if the goal is removing the parasites.

  • MJGreen||

    Yes, genocide is easily imaginable. Living in peace and respecting one another takes a bit more effort.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    For RamRar anyway.

  • Sevo||

    RamRar|1.12.14 @ 11:48PM|#
    "Answer the question"

    Ok, shitstain, answer this question:
    When did you stop beating your spouse?
    Huh? When? Did you stop a year ago, asshole? Or was it just last week?
    Listen, shitstain, we want ANSWERA!

  • RamRar||

    spouse

    What's with that word. Anyway, about a year ago, after she learned her place and stopped making me feel stupid.

  • ||

    after she learned her place and stopped making me feel stupid.

    Sorry to hear she left you.

  • Francisco d Anconia||

    Because people are intellectually lazy. Much easier to let someone else form your opinions for you.

  • Irish||

    What is up with these eugenicists coming to Reason? Is there some article attacking this website up on American Renaissance or something?

    Basically that guy's argument is that we need to restrict the ability for 'lower sorts of people' to have children. I wonder how he thinks we could do that without constructing a government that is horrifyingly evil.

  • RamRar||

    I wonder how he thinks we could do that without constructing a government that is horrifyingly evil.

    A very simple way would be to require sterilization as a precondition to welfare. Really not that complicated.

  • Francisco d Anconia||

    Like he said...

    without constructing a government that is horrifyingly evil.

  • Irish||

    I think we should just murder all the poor people. We can then use their skin as shades for our lamps and can fashion their bones into spears with which we will hunt their few surviving children.

    You know, make a real sport of it.

  • RamRar||

    I disagree. The much more humane thing to do is to tax the rich to feed the poor. Or maybe we can just let them starve and then when they come to our mansions demanding food by force, we'll remind them that they can't do that because of the Non-Aggression Principle.

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    Maybe the would be some method of giving the poor food and shelter in exchange for a lifetime of agricultural labor...

  • RamRar||

    That was what they tried in Rhodesia. The problem was that the population exploded.

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    I know a nice girl named Margaret whonyou'd like...Peter Bagge could set you up with her.

  • RamRar||

    I don't get it.

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    You won't acknowledge the founding mother of your movement? Ingrate.

  • Irish||

    I think we should bring back galleys. We don't need galleys or anything, we could just keep poor folk chained up below deck for the hell of it.

  • Agammamon||

    We keep you alive to serve this ship. So row well, and live.

  • Sidd Finch||

    Why do you white nationalists like this fruitcake so much?

  • RamRar||

    Because it is food for preserving the White Aryan Soul.

  • Sidd Finch||

    Surely there's some White Aryan Soulfood out there with less of a resemblance to Pajama Boy.

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    Wonder bread and mayonnaise, boiled egg whites, marshmallows...the mere thought makes me start humming the Horst Wessel Lied.

  • Sidd Finch||

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    Oh, a Woody Allen movie... That sounds like a good Aryan name, Allen...I like it.

  • Francisco d Anconia||

    Sounds like a babbling racist to me.

  • ||

    To critique libertarianism he brings out... Zimbabwe?

    He sounds like an AmRen moron. Not worth the trouble to engage.

  • Irish||

    Didn't you know that every African country that's doing poorly is the fault of libertarians? Zimbabwe, Somalia...it's all on us, bro.

  • RamRar||

    No. Libertarians and liberals. They sound alike because they are alike.

  • Calidissident||

    Sound logic bro

  • Sevo||

    So you reckon it's Mercan pulling another name out of the hat, or some new imbecile hoping no one figures out his ignorance?

  • Francisco d Anconia||

    Not Merican. Merican is a racist pig, but hes quasi intelligent.

  • Francisco d Anconia||

    '

  • Derpetologist||

    I think this guy like Merican is in fact a prog poser. The "white Aryan" stuff is a dead give away.

    They come, they post racist stuff, and then it gets posted to lefty blogs as proof libertarians are racist.

  • RamRar||

    What is the difference between them, Mr. Philosopher?

  • Sevo||

    RamRar|1.12.14 @ 11:58PM|#
    "What is the difference between them, Mr. Philosopher?"

    It takes a true ignoramus to ask such a question.
    Why would you prove yourself to be so ignorant? Is there some award among you and your friends to prove yourself so stupid?
    Did you register here simply to show you have no knowledge of libertarianism?
    Or are you Merican under one more fake name?

  • RamRar||

    Sevo, Yes Sevo, I'm completely ignorant of libertarianism. I tried to read about it, but it made no sense to me. You should explain it to me now.

  • Derpetologist||

    I am firmly convinced you are a Team Blue poser. Nonetheless, I will answer your question.

    Libertarians want to trim the federal government substantially. They want this because they believe that people should live and let live. That's why they oppose things like the war on drugs, the minimum wage, the income tax, gun control, America as the world's policeman, etc

    Personally, I would jump for joy if the federal government was merely pared back to what it was in 2000.

  • Sevo||

    Let's put it another way:
    Fuck off, Merican.

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    "Why, looky here, Lester, says here that ballet is gettin' more competitive. I reckon they just went and sold out."

    "It's a damned shame, Floyd. Used to be, ballet was high-class art, but now it's just mixin' in the vulgar commercial marketplace."

    "I figger Derrida was right about the commodification of cultur, yessiree."

    "Well, speaking of commodeification, ya got a copy if the New Yawk Review of books I can read in the john?"

  • ||

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    Ah, the memories...

    Dum dum dum da da DUUMM da da DUMM...whoosh.. pew! Pew! Pew!..zwaaaapp...

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    Makes me want to get out my dolls...I mean action figures!...and play with them.

    But, uh, of course I threw those things away years ago, ha ha...

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    I liked him better in Killer Ink.

  • Archduke von Pantsfan||

    GET OUT OF MY MIND PALACE

  • cavalier973||

  • ||

    Wait, how would Obi-wan have a daughter? Jedi are supposed to be celibate. We didn't see any indication of romance during the prequels, which thus means any daughter he would have had must have been conceived on Tatooine.

    So his daughter is part human, part....Jawa?

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    Darth Vader was supposed to be celibate, too.

  • ||

    Yes, but we actually saw him get married break that vow. There was no indication that Obi-Wan was anything but by the book with the Jedi code.

    So for him to have a daughter would be a tremendous cop out that radically alters the character.

    Unless they plan on making the entire prequels be non-canon. Which, to be honest, wouldn't be a bad idea. There's a great video on YouTube where one guy rewrites Episode I into a much better story.

  • ||

    They could start by having a PRO-TAW-NO-GIST.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    The prequels will look like Citizen Kane next to anything Abrams does. Our brains can't repel hackery of that magnitude.

  • Warrren||

    Abrams is absolute crap. He is playing a long-con on the studios and the viewers.

  • ||

    Abrams is the most derivative blockbuster director in Hollywood, which is why he's a good choice to direct Star Wars.

    He's apt to mimic the better parts of Spielberg and Lucas, which is fine if you're making a deliberately nostalgic movie like what I assume Disney wants the new movies to be.

  • Warrren||

    That's a thin thread to hang one's hopes on.

  • PapayaSF||

    Reminds me of the apocryphal quote of Isadora Duncan offering to have George Bernard Shaw's child, because it would have her beauty and his brains. "Yes, but what if it were the other way around?"

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    Slip something into his drink at the cantina...when he wakes up he's naked, half-buried in a sand dune...and my joke gets worse from there.

  • ||

    Pretty sure his genitalia was burned off by that lava. And it's not like the Emperor would be very concerned about giving him some prosthetics given his new job to be an enforcer.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    Depends on which half.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    After becoming DV, he only saw Padme long enough to choke her, and would die if anyone opened up his suit after his fight with Obi Wan, he presumably was celibate.

  • Auric Demonocles||

    He saw her before he left for Mustafar too...

  • VG Zaytsev||

    Maybe they'll bring some reality to the series and cast the Jedi as thoroughly corrupt, keeping girls on side, partying the night before their services and stashing money whenever they could. - Kind of like the catholic clergy in the 14th century.

    Explains how the emperor could destroy them so easily.

  • ||

    Kind of like the catholic clergy in the 14th century.

    Yeah, because that totally stopped in the 14th century...

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    We didn't see any indication of romance during the prequels,

    Did you go to the bathroom during his scenes with Mace Windu?

  • ||

    Yeah, I don't get it.

    However, it could have been non-consensual (likely through technological means, as I imagine a Jedi would be hard to rape*), by some weirdo seeking to have a force-sensitive child.

    *wait, WTF did I just write?

  • Warrren||

    Maybe he spermbanked to help pay his way through Starfleet Jedi College.

  • DK||

    Wait, how would Obi-wan have a daughter?

    Sperm bank?

  • Francisco d Anconia||

    Obi-wan was layin' pipe all over the galaxy. I'll bet he was doin' a green bitch in there somewhere too. Maybe Yoda's sister?

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    "Freaky you are...like it I do..."

  • Warrren||

    He baybeeee wanna see my fleshsaber?

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

  • Warrren||

    Peg you I will!

  • Francisco d Anconia||

    Hot she is.

  • ||

    The only explanation I can think of is that Obi-Wan was a frequent visitor to the brothels of Mos Eisley.

    How else do you explain him knowing his way around such a wretched hive of scum and villainy?

  • Warrren||

    Jedi Nights next on Showtime. Will Ben get lucky or is he doomed to spend another evening as an Obi-Wanker?

  • Francisco d Anconia||

    Jedi getting drunk in a bar prattling on about the code:

    *Leans over slapping his companion on the back*

    "And here's the kicker...We tell the new guys they're required to remain celibate. Bwahhahahahahaha!"

  • Agammamon||

    After-all - the Jedi code requires you to have no *emotional* attachments.

    So he just bangs and leaves.

  • ||

    Posted this upthread but was stupid late. To those who were wondering whether German apprentices get paid the minimum wage*:

    It's much less. I trained in insurance between 1991 and 1994 and my salary went up from 1,100 to 1,400 Deutschmarks over that period. Divide by 2 and you have the approximate dollar amount.

    That was top-of-the-range for apprentices though. A friend trained in the hotel business and worked around 60 hours / week for 400 DM.

    It's a trade-off, really. In the beginning you cost money because you are a bumbling fool who needs his hand held all the time by much more qualified people. Once you get better the company recoups its investment by underpaying you.

    And yes, apprenticeship isn't looked down on in Germany at all. Quite the contrary. I was strongly encouraged to learn a trade before going to college and employers will see this as a large plus on your resume.

    *Germany doesn't have a minimum wage. DAS MERKEL is working hard to change this.

  • Sidd Finch||

    As I understand it when someone completes a blue collar apprenticeship he can start working as a craftsman. Is that true for stuff like insurance or is it just something for the resume?

  • ||

    Well, the insurance companies usually require you to have concluded your apprenticeship. There's no law requiring it though.

  • Sidd Finch||

    I was actually wondering whether these white collar apprenticeships actually led to jobs* or if they were just "work experience" that you can put on a resume after college. I think you've answered my question.

    *That question seems insane now that I type it out, but such is the relationship between education and job training in the US.

  • ||

    Not insane at all. Having lived in the US for the last 5 years it does sound weird.

    The apprentice jobs are real jobs and you get worked hard. You also eat a lot of shit and learn to deal with it.

    If you complete them any employer will know that you're a dependable sort who also can be trained for whatever.

    That was actually the gist of the advice to me I mentioned above. It doesn't really matter what you apprentice in, just do it and finish it. Afterwards the world's your oyster.

  • Archduke von Pantsfan||

    I once met an actual wandering journeyman apprentice carpenter from Germany.
    He had to wear the costume, and couldn't own more than he could carry.

  • Warrren||

    Did he have to tithe 10% of any gold he found to the local temple?

  • Agammamon||

    Carpenter, not Paladin.

  • ||

    Those guys are way cool and yes, they're still around.

    It's indeed mostly reserved for carpenters these days, although it used to be standard for many other traditional trades like masonry.

    They call it 'die Walk / die Waltz' and the rules are strict. You must walk wherever you go, you mustn't pay for accommodation and as you said, no bank account.

    My parents hosted one of them for a few days last summer. Originally from Dresden he had been all over Germany, Austria, Italy and France. All by foot. The buttons on his vest (part of his Tracht) were solid gold. I guess that's a time-honored way to store wealth.

    Very medieval

  • GILMORE||

    FYI - this exists in the US as well. One of the many quirks of American employment; budding insurance agents are fed pittance salary while they learn regulations. Think that's normal around the world.

  • SIV||

    I for one welcome our new burger-bots

  • PapayaSF||

    Burger-bot loves the idea of a $15 minimum wage.

  • Wasteland Wanderer||

    Burger-bot feeds on the anguish wails of unemployed fry cooks.

  • John B.||

    There is nothing strange about places like this. Only if they are in Brooklyn. Everyone is freaking out now. Imagine Detroit in 132 years - it will become one of the biggest ghost towns ever - true Pataliputra of the so called modern age. To renovate some place means there is still hope for the city. And for the residents as well.

  • RishJoMo||

    People in New York are just weird like that.

    www.Anon-Global.tk

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