When a Politician Talks About Our Rich Hunting Tradition, Reach for Your Gun

According to President Obama's gun control recommendations, he "strongly believes that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual right to bear arms." But what does he think this right entails? "The President believes that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual right to bear arms," the White House says, "and he respects our nation's rich hunting and sport shooting traditions." The 22-page document mentions hunting and sport shooting five more times, but there are only two mentions of self-defense, both of them in this sentence (which appears twice): "Most gun owners buy their guns legally and use them safely, whether for self-defense, hunting or sport shooting." That ratio is a pretty accurate reflection of Obama's rhetorical record on this issue, which features more assurances to hunters and sport shooters than references to self-defense.

Does it matter? I think it does, because someone who thinks the Second Amendment is mainly about shooting deer and targets will have a much broader concept of constitutional gun restrictions than someone who recognizes that it is mainly about defense against various kinds of aggressors. "Nobody needs 10 bullets to kill a deer," says New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo, explaining why his state's new seven-round limit on magazines is consistent with the Second Amendment. Cuomo's comments in his State of the State speech last week, like Obama's tendency to ignore self-defense, suggest a fundamental misunderstanding of the right to keep and bear arms:

We need a gun policy in this state that is reasonable, that is balanced, that is measured. We respect hunters and sportsmen. This is not taking away people's guns. I own a gun. I own a Remington shotgun. I've hunted. I've shot. That's not what this is about. It is about ending the unnecessary risk of high-capacity assault rifles. That's what this is about.

In the same speech, Cuomo bragged about the Sullivan Act, New York's "first-in-the-nation" ban on unauthorized possession or carrying of concealable weapons, enacted in 1911. To this day, New Yorkers must obtain a permit to buy a handgun, and the state's policy regarding carry permits gives local authorities broad discretion to reject applications. That sort of "may issue" policy does not pose much of a barrier to hunters, but it certainly interferes with self-defense, to the point that a federal appeals court, confronted by a similar law in Illinois, has deemed it unconstititional, citing the right to armed self-defense recognized by the Supreme Court.

It does not help Obama's credibility that he defended the constitutionality of both the Washington, D.C., and Chicago gun bans before they were overturned by the Supreme Court. If he were smart, he would talk more about the right to self-defense and less about hunting and target shooting, the better to smooth the way for the restrictions he wants. Every time he pays lip service to "our nation's rich hunting and sport shooting traditions," its sets off alarm bells among Americans who value the Second Amendment for other reasons.

[I have fixed Cuomo's name.]

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  • John||

    Hunting weapons are just as and often more dangerous that "assault weapons" however you want to define them. I really don't want to face a crazed lunatic carrying a 12 gauge pump action shotgun or a good deer rifle. They only except "hunting and sporting" weapons because they are stupid and are lying.

  • wingnutx||

    The Aurora shooter did most of his killing with a shotgun, iirc.

  • entropy||

    I heard that his shotgun jammed after 2 shots and he tossed it and switched to a rifle.

  • entropy||

    My bad. According to wiki:

    He then fired a 12-gauge Remington 870 Express Tactical shotgun, first at the ceiling and then at the audience. He also fired a Smith & Wesson M&P15;[11] semi-automatic rifle with a 100-round drum magazine, which malfunctioned after reportedly firing fewer than 30 rounds.

  • NeonCat||

    Only except "hunting and sporting" weapons so far. And those only if they aren't black and/or with a detachable magazine.

  • Brett L||

  • Rasilio||

    I've made this argument multiple times, in a close quarters situation a 12 gague shotgun firing buckshot is a far more effective weapon for mass murder than any "assault rifle" and this even includes the full auto ones issued by the military, although a full auto SMG would be better.

    In an outdoor situation where no one will be shooting back a high powered hunting rifle is the superior mass murder weapon because of the more lethal rounds, although a full auto or select fire assault rifle would be better.

    In neither case would clip size be any of the other things they wish to ban approach being a determining factor.

  • Julant||

    Full auto makes for horrendous accuracy anyways. Thus the reason the M-16 has select fire w/ semi, burst, and full auto... and rarely is it used in full auto except for suppression fire.

    Either go shotgun, or else semi-auto if you actually want to hit something.

    Semi-auto will make a clip last much longer too, so this "high capacity" ban crap won't do a damn thing. It's all about the psychological effects of "oooo, its teh scary looking gun!"

  • SIV||

    Mark Essex

    Wiki link for brevity but you can easily find a lengthy detailed account of the mayhem the ex-Navy dental technician accomplised with a fixed tube-magazine Ruger carbine in .44 mag.

  • ||

    An autopsy later revealed more than 200 gunshot wounds.

    "Shoot harder, boys!"

  • ||

    I have one of those ruger carbines in 44 mag with the tube magazine. It is the least scary looking gun ever. I have bagged many deer with it up to 150 yards.

    Once I shot a doe from 50 ft or so. She fell down. I put another cartridge in the rifle while she was getting up. She ran straight at me. I shot her 5 more times while she ran at me....and as she went past I actually jabbed her with the barrel and fired the last shot. She kept going.

    I put three more cartridges in the rifle and shot her three more times as she went away from me.

    I was able to shoot 10 times in less than that many seconds including reloading. In a room full of people that could be devastating.

    I know I know, some of you are wondering how that doe was able to withstand 10 shots from a 44. I bought 1000 bullets ( JHPs) from a discount seller at such a deal I couldnt pass them up. Then I discovered that they would not expand no matter what you shot them into. That poor deer had 10 pinholes through her.

  • dinkster||

    I would prefer being shot multiple times by a .223 than once by a 300 winchester magnum.

  • GILMORE||

    John| 1.16.13 @ 2:51PM |#

    Hunting weapons are just as and often more dangerous that "assault weapons"

    GOOD POINT NOW WE CAN BAN THOSE TOO

  • sarcasmic||

    If Obama were smart, he would talk more about the right to self-defense and less about hunting and target shooting

    Except that most liberals equate self defense with vigilante justice. Their idea of self defense is calling the cops. They would truly rather someone die with a phone in their hand than live with a gun in their hand because anyone other than a cop or soldier owning a gun is a dangerous and terrible thing.

  • Drake||

    Because they (think) they fully control the cops and soldiers.

  • Loki||

    Actual conversation I had once with an idiot progesso-tard (is there another kind?):

    Idiot Progresso-tard: "Why do like doing Martial Arts and fighting so much?"

    Me: "Because I want to be able to defend myself if I'm ever attacked even if I'm unarmed."

    Idiot Progresso-tard: "Why not just call the cops?"

    Yeah, that actually happened.

  • Kyfho Myoba||

    Because when seconds count, the cops are just minutes away.

  • Generic Stranger||

    YOU: "Look around, you see any cops?"

    HIM: "No."

    YOU: "Now, if you were to call them right now, how many times do you think I could stab you before they got here?"

  • thom||

    Yup. Complete dependence is the goal.

  • John||

    And for the record, the bambi's mom death scene is one of the most depressing and awful scenes ever put to film. I really think that scene is responsible for my life long hatred of all things Disney.

  • Monkey's Uncle||

    +1

  • John||

    And damn you Reason for putting that picture up. I still have PTSD from seeing that movie when I was five. Screw going to war. Watching Bambi at age five is what gives you PTSD.

  • Lost_In_Translation||

    +1.

    Jacob you bastard, Bambi was anthropomorphic, ANTHROPOMORPHIC!!!!

  • NoVAHockey||

    Apparently I had to be removed from the theater with the government tried to take ET.

  • Hyperion||

    Well, no more worrying about that type of scene. All films coming out of Hollywood have now replaced government with evil korporashunz.

    So in any modern remake of ET, ET will be kidnapped by Haliburton when he attempts to phone home.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Frodo and Sam were taken prisoner by govt agents. Twice!

  • Hyperion||

    That's permissible because it was a fantasy government, that could in no way be construed as a reference for our own 'benevolent' government.

  • sloopyinca||

    Plus, all of the ability to govern was granted based on lineage. Fuck that shit. Every place in middle earth was an aristocracy, and that's bullshit. The closest place to a free city was Bree, and it was portrayed negatively because of it.

  • Pro Libertate||

    Well, the Shire had a nominal thain, but, in fact, it was a crypto-anarchic commune.

  • sloopyinca||

    Yeah, but they weren't really "free" either. Look at what happened when Wormtongue and Saruman showed up. hey didn't rid The Shire of them on their own, they relied on Gandalf to do so, IIRC.

    I always looked at The Shire as Gandalf's little slave factory.

  • Pro Libertate||

    What? Gandalf wasn't there at all--he was dropping acid with Tom Bombadil.

    While Gandalf may have used the hobbits to do his dirty work, he didn't force them to do it. He just talked them into that shit. Completely libertarian.

  • sloopyinca||

    You mean Gandalf the pederast that used to "play" with young Bilbo and Frodo and Dildo?

  • Pro Libertate||

    Wrong again--they were all adults. You are literate, right?

  • sloopyinca||

    Oh, they were always adults? Were they born full-sized (well, for them anyway) Hobbittses? I don't think so.

    I know Frodo mentioned remembering playing with Gandalf when he was young. IMO, they're repressed memories of exploitation.

  • Pro Libertate||

    Are you talking about Harry Potter or something?

  • Zeb||

    The scouring of the Shire was accomplished by Hobbits alone, with no magic or outside help.

  • Pro Libertate||

    Well, we must make allowances from sloopyinca--he didn't attend the flagship university of Ohio, Ohio University.

  • mad libertarian guy||

    Well, the Shire had a nominal thain, but, in fact, it was a crypto-anarchic commune.

    True story: Tolkien used KY and its people as his archetype for the Shire and hobbits. I'd fish out the reference, but I'm too lazy.

  • sloopyinca||

    My trolling is done here.

  • ||

    They offered the world MORDOR!

  • Cytotoxic||

    +++++++++

  • BakedPenguin||

    Good line, but you shouldn't cross the streams, Ray.

  • Tim||

    heh.

  • SugarFree||

    So in any modern remake of ET, ET will be kidnapped by Haliburton when he attempts to phone home.

    8MM was a remake of ET, and the bad guys were still government agents, albeit military, which makes it still OK to hate them, I guess.

  • sloopyinca||

    And once again, it all comes back to Nic Cage.

  • SugarFree||

    *Super 8* nurts.

    Although a bunch of little kids investigating an alien snuff film sounds like an awesome movie idea.

  • ||

    JJ Abrams is more of an "idea guy".

  • John||

    Super 8 looked pretty good. Was it?

  • SugarFree||

    It was nowhere near as bad as it was made out to be. Little schmaltzy and the ending kind of pat, but it was Spielberg so what can you do?

  • John||

    I always thought it looked like a fun Hollywood fantasy kind of thing. I like movies like that. There was a movie I saw years ago in college, a total chick flick I went to with some girl I was trying to bang. It was about a bunch of adolescent girls in the South investigating some kind of a mystery of some sort. It was like Stand By Me for chicks. And for all of its cheesiness, it was a good movie simply because it managed to be very escapist. There is nothing wrong with that.

  • SugarFree||

    Benji's little girlfriend getting kicked to death was worse for me. Why do we show kids these terrible things?

    I'm looking at you also, Bridge to Terabithia...

  • sloopyinca||

    Bridge to Terabithia

    I'll admit it. I cried.

  • ||

    OLD YELLER BITCHES

  • ||

    Charlotte's Web still does it for me.

  • Pro Libertate||

    Brian's Song. The James Caan version, that is.

  • John||

    If you don't cry during Brian's Song, you don't like humanity. Even Warty cries seeing that movie.

  • ||

    I watched that in my football coach's health class in 11th grade. What I remember most about it is the retarded kid who repeatedly asked if the football scenes were actual football footage. That retard was not very clever.

  • Bobarian||

    Where the Red Fern Grows has got to be the ultimate...

    I cried like a dainty little girl.

    The book, more so than the movie.

    It was like Old Yeller two times in a row.

  • Killazontherun||

    No wonder Mumsie Woo Woo refused to let me see that movie.

  • John||

    Benji is so bad, I think I have blocked it out. I know I made my siblings take me to it. But I don't remember a single thing about that movie.

  • SugarFree||

    I saw it at the drive-in; after a certain point I just hid in the floor board until it was over.

  • John||

    The people who made kids movies in the pre 1980s really must have hated children. Either that or they figured "they need to learn what life is all about so lets show them how bad it can get". They loved to kill animals to make kids cry.

  • ||

    Hell I still cry when a dog dies. People, not so much, but dogs get to me.

  • John||

    I am the same.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    One of my first memories is my brother letting me watch Watership Down when I was 3.

  • GILMORE||

    John| 1.16.13 @ 2:54PM |#

    And for the record, the bambi's mom death scene is one of the most depressing and awful scenes ever put to film

    I think its perfectly appropriate to make a children's movie where you depict the protagonists Mother being shot right in front of them. It happens all the time! get used to it kiddies. This is why we have to ban guns.

  • ||

    What about our rich tradition of self-defense and gunfights? Have they no respect for the shootout at the OK Corral?

  • nicole||

    They're not trying to take away your guns. They're not even saying you can't carry a gun. They're just saying you can't carry one in town!

  • John||

    Mama, put my guns in the ground
    I can't shoot them anymore.
    That long black cloud is comin' down
    I feel like I'm knockin' on heaven's door

  • ||

    I have two guns, nicole, one for each of you.

  • A Serious Man||

    +1 Huckleberry

  • R C Dean||

    Is there any pop culture reference that the idiot savants in the commentariat can't pick up?

    I mean, damn, its not like Tombstone is a major milestone or a cult classic or anything, but there it is.

  • $park¥||

    I mean, damn, its not like Tombstone is a major milestone or a cult classic or anything, but there it is.

    Especially when you consider that it's the shitty Wyatt Earp movie.

  • A Serious Man||

    Tombstone is one of my favorite movies period.

    And Sparky, you must be trolling if you prefer the Kevin Costner version to Tombstone, which has one of the best casts you'll ever see for a movie. Even bit parts are played by great actors like Terry O'Quinn, Billy Bob Thornton, and oh yeah, Charlton fukin' Heston.

  • $park¥||

    All you can kiss my rebel dick!

  • Ted S.||

    My Darling Clementine, thank you very much.

  • mad libertarian guy||

    Are her shoes Number 9?

  • ||

    I was hesitant to watch Tombstone because of how deeply the shittiness of the Kevin Costner Wyatt Earp had scarred me. Holy fuck, just the memory of it is painful.

  • A Serious Man||

    Really? I'd think Costner's movie would set a pretty low bar for Tombstone to surpass (which it easily does).

  • Bobarian||

    Honestly though, if you took Val Kilmer out of Tombstone, and had somebody else play that part, that movie would be barely remembered.

    The Doc Holiday part is the bomb, though, because the only watchable part of Wyatt Earp was Dennis Quaid.

  • ||

    We take pride in our idiocy and savant-ness, RC. Missing a reference is...embarrassing.

  • nicole||

    I mean, damn, its not like Tombstone is a major milestone or a cult classic or anything, but there it is.

    It comes up enough here that it's a H&R cult classic though.

  • Rasilio||

    In my experience libertarians, gamers, Scadians, and geeks tend to have a FAR higher awarness of pop culture with broader scope and better recall of it than nearly all other demographic groups I have encountered.

    So get a group of 15 - 20 of them and I would be shocked if you could offer up a pop culture reference without at least someone picking up on it.

  • Hyperion||

    Then we should immediately replace our current system of government with one in which there are 2 parties who decide all issues with trivia game matches, instead of votes. One party will be made up of the group you just listed, the other will be everyone else.

  • Ted S.||

    one in which there are 2 parties who decide all issues with trivia game matches, instead of votes.

    The final joke in Spies Like Us.

  • Julant||

    All major policy decisions need to be made via playing Cards Against Humanity.

  • ||

    *Googles "Scadians"*

    Fuck. Now I am going to have to spend all afternoon down the SCA rabbithole.

  • SugarFree||

    I was disappointed to find it didn't mean Special Collections and Archives.

  • ||

    "Special Circumstances Alumni"

  • mr simple||

    Tombstone's not a cult classic? I guess I've just always been around people who liked it. The only bad part was when they defined fortuitous to mean lucky. Fortuitous means by chance and implies neither good nor bad luck!

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    "I know what it means."

  • Generic Stranger||

    It's both, actually:

    fortuitous

    for·tu·i·tous
    [fawr-too-i-tuh s, -tyoo-]
    adjective
    1.
    happening or produced by chance; accidental: a fortuitous encounter.
    2.
    lucky; fortunate: a series of fortuitous events that advanced her career.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Fortuitous

  • Pro Libertate||

    What? It's a fine film. Kilmer was great--like excessively great--and it was pretty well done all the way through.

  • Pro Libertate||

    Submit.

  • Brett L||

    I wish they'd have Burr-Hamilton style pistol duels more often.

  • Rasilio||

    Funny thing is if they had them, using the same tech as the originals (single shot black powder pistols) and the same rules the fatality rates would likely be lower than they are for bar fights.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Only if they're allowed to use 21st century medical treatment afterward.

  • Rasilio||

    Well yeah, that was kinda the point.

    Combine the terrible accuracy with the relatively low muzzle velocities and lethal wounds given modern technology would be very rare. Basically you'd have to get a direct hit to the head or heart

  • Brett L||

    Fuck that. A single round in the chamber of a 1911. No magazine. Count 10 paces, turn and fire.

  • SugarFree||

    Swords. Bring back a little skill to defending your honor.

  • sloopyinca||

    Fuck that shit. Go old school and bring back the slap fight.

  • ||

    HAWT

  • Brett L||

    Leave your Highlander fetish out of this.

  • ||

    No, Brett, The Highlander was a documentary, and events happened...in real time.

  • Loki||

    It only won the academy award for Best Movie Ever Made.

  • Drake||

    My favorite Andy Griffin episode is the one he tried to get 2 hillbillies to duel with 12-gauges. He was only going to count to five because the blasts from the shotguns would take care of the rest of the distance.

  • ||

    What you got's nothin' new, Epi. You can't stop what's comin'. It ain't all wain' on you. That's vanity.

  • nicole||

    That sort of "may issue" policy does not pose much of a barrier to hunters, but it certainly interferes with self-defense, to the point that a federal appeals court, confronted by a similar law in Illinois, has deemed it unconstititional, citing the right to armed self-defense recognized by the Supreme Court.

    This is quite misleading; the IL law deemed unconstitutional had zero provision for carrying, may-, shall- or otherwise-issued.

  • Monkey's Uncle||

    I'll trade your Mario for an Andrew, Jacob.

  • NeonCat||

    He's going to get himself Steigerwalded at this rate.

  • Raston Bot||

    What happened to Lucy?

  • SugarFree||

    She went to a farm, when there's plenty of run for her to run and play. You didn't want her cramped up in her with us for her entire life, did you?

  • ||

    Don't listen to NutraSweet, he just tells this lie because he ate her.

  • Thane of Whiterun||

    She left to gambol?

  • SugarFree||

    She left to gambol?

    Wait... LUCY! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

  • Thane of Whiterun||

    This is why women don't become libertarians. You won't allow them the freedom to gambol.

  • mad libertarian guy||

    What's fucked up is that I had to turn off the filter because you fuckers used gambol.

  • Generic Stranger||

    That particular troll hasn't been back since registration started, at least to my knowledge, so it probably isn't necessary to still filter for that word.

  • Tim||

    never talk about what happened to Lucy.

  • Ted S.||

    She got drunk on Vitameatavegamin.

  • flye||

    "If Obama were smart..."

    Whoa there... watch the code words. Next you'll be saying he's a "lazy" thinker who "isn't qualified" to head a small company let alone the government of the United States.

  • Pro Libertate||

    You know, I used to think Powell was okay, back when he was producing CNN war video. These days, he seems like a doofus. I don't get the idea that the possibility that some words might sound hurtful to the race-sensitive is eleventy billion times worse than the president's incompetence and love of the state.

    I'd despise Obama's politics if he were my brother. I don't give a flying fuck about his race, sex, national origin, or love of Star Trek.

  • ||

    Did you know that Obama's favorite Star Trek movie is the reboot?

  • Pro Libertate||

    I'd be shocked if it wasn't. And his favorite Star Trek episode ever was the Voyager one where they devolve into lizards.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Nah, the Next Generation episode where the chief of the Kenyans In Space ditches his black wife for Tasha Yar.

  • Ted S.||

    I thought the devolution into lizards episode was TNG. Datums and Picard (I think) come back from an away mission to find everybody devolving.

  • Pro Libertate||

    Different and not quite as bad. This one involved some sort of lizard limit to warp speed. Sorry, you've gone too fast. You're now a lizard until you get better.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Half of Voyager's episodes were warmed-over TNG stuff. The other half were written in crayon by kindergarteners.

  • Tim||

    Because an unqualified but very lucky doofus attains unheard of power and career success?

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    I still don't get how Kirk became captain. Was it that none of the other captains wanted him on their crew?

  • Pro Libertate||

    Wait, you mean real Kirk or Teen Kirk?

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Pine Kirk

  • Pro Libertate||

    Pining for the fjords?

    The new movie was stupid. Even Episiarch agrees. He only objects to complaining about it.

  • nicole||

    Since I'm already worse than Hitler, I may as well tell you that I like the new movie. Of course, it's still stupid.

  • Pro Libertate||

    Well, I'm sure Hitler likes it.

  • ||

    Calm down, Hitler. Do you think Ron Howard just wished Willow was great? No, and yet it was.

  • Ted S.||

    Grand Theft Auto actually is a hoot.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    And tbh I think that would have been a great story line if they'd pursued it. It would actually make the old ST make more sense if Kirk and his crew were basically hated by everyone else in Starfleet, so they always got sent on the most unpleasant missions in the most dangerous parts of space.

  • Pro Libertate||

    A non-stupid, non-alternative-universe, Young Star Trek could've been acceptable.

  • ||

    Exactly! But wait, isn't that also the plot to Nemesis as well?

  • nicole||

    Look, the Romulans were a race bred for war. And by "bred for war" I mean "bred to live in darkness and not be able to deal with the light, but somehow have a secret base where they can build a secret ship with technology no one else uses because it's so dangerous, all while working as slaves in mines for 16 hours a day."

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Remans, you mean.

  • nicole||

    Yes, I do, thank you, Tulpa.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    You better not talk shit about Star Trek V, it was an awesome movie. Of course I was jacked up on codeine while watching it, which may have helped.

  • ||

    I am one of the biggest booster of V there is. I actually like it. Everyone just wants to hate on Shatner's direction, but they can go suck it.

    "And when I directed Star Trek V, I got a good performance out of me because I respected me so much."

  • Tim||

    "What does God need with an assault rifle?"-Obama

  • A Serious Man||

    The Final Frontier was a big mess, but it was an ambitious mess so I can't hate it based on that alone, at least Shatner tried to do something different with the franchise.

  • Tim||

    IIRC The teamsters went on strike and left him stranded on location in the desert and Shat had to scrap the ending and pull one out of his ass.

  • Loki||

    It was better then ST I, but I'd still take ST III over ST V. Although if they'd been able to Sean Connery to play Spock's brother like they originally wanted to it would have been better.

    Although having Connery and Shatner would have probably caused the universe to implode from too much concentrated awesomeness, so it's probably for the best that he turned them down.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    They should have dumped James Doohan for Connery anyway.

  • ||

    ST III is really campy, but fun. ST V has some really cringe-worthy moments, but it actually has some really excellent parts as well.

    Sean Connery made the right decision. Him plus Star Trek just wouldn't work.

  • Pro Libertate||

    Suck, suck, and more suck.

    Not Connery, of course. He never sucks. He slaps.

  • Ted S.||

    Not Connery, of course. He never sucks.

    Marnie is a mess.

  • Pro Libertate||

    Insulting Connery and Hitchcock at once. That's ballsy.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    There's another big famous role that Connery turned down. I can't remember what it was.

  • Pro Libertate||

    Goodgulf the Wizard.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Oh yeah, that's right. How did I not remember that. I can't IMAGINE Connery pulling that role off, he's too imposing a figure.

  • Pro Libertate||

    I think he could've done it. But McKellen was a great casting decision.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    McKellen, Lee, Astin, and Rhys-Davies were absolutely inspired.

    Bloom and Mortensen were way too hippie surfer dude for my idea of Leg and Ara. Though with Aragorn at least, PJ wrote him to be more of an indecisive Gen-X drifter than a guy who really wants to become king. So I guess it fits.

  • Pro Libertate||

    Mortensen was okay. Not quite my vision of Aragorn, but not bad.

    Bloom was silly.

  • Zeb||

    I thought Mortensen was OK as Aragorn. I just think Bloom is a shitty actor.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Yeah, I guess he was good for what PJ wanted him to be. I just don't like the fact that Aragorn was not only wandering but actually lost for most of the movies, contra the famous quatrain from the book.

  • Loki||

    Apparently he's turned down quite a few over the years.

    A few that stand out to me:
    Assassins: Robert Rath (went to Stallone instead, WFT?)

    Blade Runner: Deckard

    LOTR: Gandalf

    The Matrix sequels: The Architect (WTF?)

  • Rasilio||

    Well in his defense most of the Star Trek movies did suck

  • flye||

    I don't get the Powell take either, especially if you compare/contrast to the vitriol directed at Clarence Thomas by the left.

    I mean, I get it from a elitist point of view, authentic vs. cornball and all of that. But I don't get why Powell of all people buys into it.

  • Pro Libertate||

    I was frankly shocked.

  • rts||

    It never ceases to astound me how many people, of all stripes, rabidly support victimless crimes. Possessing, buying, selling, and safely carrying (as opposed to, say, brandishing) firearms (or pretty much *anything*, really) are victimless crimes, but most people are happy to have violence visited* on people who have committed none.

    It makes me wonder if we really are living in a civilized society at all.

    *Passive voice intentional, as most of those same people wouldn't have the balls to do the violence themselves, but would rather pay other agents to do so.

  • sarcasmic||

    They feel that they can prevent crime by prohibiting law abiding citizens from doing things that criminals do leading up to an actual crime.

    Things like taking a shower and a shit first thing in the morning.

  • Bobarian||

    If you shower before you shit, you deserve all the bad things that happen to you.

  • Hyperion||

    It makes me wonder if we really are living in a civilized society at all.

    Umm, we put people in prison for posession of a fucking plant. So I don't think any more thought is needed about that.

  • Tim||

    I'm old enough to remember back in the 80's when "Handgun Control Inc" reached it's zenith. In particular I remember a TV spot where they argued why they want to ban handguns when assault rifles were out there and so much more powerful.
    Liberal idiot patiently explained that military rifles weren't used in very many crimes and thus were not the menace that cheap, easily concealable handguns (the choice of criminals) were.

  • Pro Libertate||

    I remember some thing about Saturday night specials.

  • Tim||

    They haven't forgotten about handguns, they'll be back for them. Then the "sniper" rifles (scoped hunting pieces) and the street sweepers (shotguns).

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    The 10 round limit is directed at handguns too...

  • Drake||

    Those are now assault weapon pistols.

  • ||

    No one's saying you can't have a handgun.

    They're just saying you can't have one that can kill 8 people.

  • Brett L||

    Don't forget the +1 in the chamber. You're going out to mass murder. Fill'er all the way up.

  • ||

    I just hope they also pass a law the prohibits a mass murderer from carrying multiple weapons. That's the only way to keep our kids safe.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Or one person hopped up on butt salts.

  • mad libertarian guy||

    Which is why, the Monday after Newtown, I purposefully went out and bought a pistol that has a capacity of 15+1 rounds of 45 ACP goodness.

  • mad libertarian guy||

    I wish I had the foresight to to pick up a few more 30 round AR mags and another AR while I was at Buds that Monday and they still have hundreds of boxes of them lying on the sales floor.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    15 rounds of 45ACP? You could probably use it as a golf club too.

  • Killazontherun||

    Maybe Lynard Skynard can come up with a little ditty about clips for the prezzy.

  • R C Dean||

    Anybody else hungry for some venison, or is it just me?

  • Pro Libertate||

    You know what the new thing is? Python. Anybody want some python jerky?

  • R C Dean||

    I dunno, Pro L. "Jerk" and "python" in the same sentence sounds like a euphemism for something.

  • Pro Libertate||

    Look, Florida has a massive excess supply of pythons. Are you going to help or are you going to keep making unhelpful snarky remarks?

    We're not asking for federal aid, we're just asking you to learn to love python products--python jerky, baked python, python pizza, python hot dogs, python burgers, pythonloaf, python fritters, and, best of all, deep-fried python on a stick.

  • NeonCat||

    Python stuffed python?
    Florida fried python?

  • Pro Libertate||

    Python-infused vodka, python bacon, python fondue. . . there's really no limit to what you can do with python.

  • Brett L||

    Python & grits.

  • Pro Libertate||

    Oh, yeah, python goes great with Cajun cuisine. In fact, make python a part of the trinity.

  • Zeb||

    I could go for some Python jerky.

  • $park¥||

    You heartless bastard. You ... lawyer!

  • mad libertarian guy||

    Tomorrow's dinner: Venison Pot Roast.

  • Generic Stranger||

    I've been hungry for some venison for a while, but I got skunked last season. Saw plenty of deer, just none with antlers. I'd have bought a doe tag, but they don't sell them here except for special hunts.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    If Obama were smart, he would talk more about the right to self-defense and less about hunting and target shooting, the better to smooth the way for the restrictions he wants.

    Unfortunately I think he IS being smart here. People who value firearms for self defense are never going to trust BO, but he can reach out to the Fudds who compose a huge part of the NRA membership, so long as he makes noises about keeping their over-unders and bolt-actions legal.

  • Hyperion||

    If he were honest, he would say something like this.

    Uhh, I respect that 2nd amendment, because of the 57 amendments, uhh, let me be clear here. Uhh, it's the one that is there to protect citizens against tyrants, uhh, you know, like me.

  • SIV||

    The NRA can whip most of the Fudds in line.

  • Jeff||

    When a Politician Talks About Our Rich Hunting Tradition, Reach for Your Gun

  • ant1sthenes||

    You know, that link Nick gave yesterday to show that the Nazis expanded gun rights listed three groups who benefited. Nazis, government workers... And hunters.

  • Liberty||

    "They expanded gun rights for many groups (though not the Jews)."
    Wonder why....?

  • The Immaculate Trouser||

    "There is no hunting like the hunting of man[...]"

    Ernest Hemingway

  • Fladnag the Yarg||

    Dear Congress and WH. OK, I'm willing to compromise. I'll turn in All of my guns and ammunition in exchange for 12 twelve fully armed drones which I can use with impunity. No oversight, no messy trials, just my own little kill list. Deal?

  • sloopyinca||

    The only difference in a "hunting rifle" and a "sniper rifle" is the spelling.

    Well that and they know they can't try to take everything in one attempt. It's called incrementalization for a reason, and it's worked wonders every time they've trampled on our rights. Just ask protesters who want to stand near an abortion clinic or people who tell a NYPD officer they can't search them without PC.

  • mad libertarian guy||

    The only difference in a "hunting rifle" and a "sniper rifle" is the spelling.

    Technically, yes. If in a pinch, I'd absolutely use my hunting rifle. But it's definitely not the same as my precision long range rifle ("sniper" rifle is frowned upon by most gun enthusiasts and military because a sniper rifle is one used by a sniper in a specific sniper role in combat) which any sniper in the workd would be proud to carry in to battle.

  • Generic Stranger||

    You're losing the forest for the trees, here.

    A sniper rifle is, ipso facto, any rifle used to snipe. Back in Vietnam they took hunting rifles off the shelf, did a bit of accurizing, and called it good enough.

    Hell, the majority of sniper rifles until the last three or so decades couldn't do a whole hell of a lot better than 1 MOA, which just about any mid-range hunting rifle will do these days. 1 MOA, if you are skilled enough, is good out to 800-1000 yards, easy, for man-sized targets.

  • Liberty||

    "I think it does, because someone who thinks the Second Amendment is mainly about shooting deer and targets will have a much broader concept of constitutional gun restrictions than someone who recognizes that it is mainly about defense against various kinds of aggressors."
    his makes me think of Nick Gillespe.

  • waaminn||

    Sounds like an all out plan to me dude. Wow.

    www.anono-web.tk

  • sloopyinca||

    Fuck all this gun talk. Chip Kely bolts Oregon for the NFL.

    I guess we know how serious the infractions were now. Prepare for Oregon to get poleaxed by the NCAA in 3...2...

  • ||

    I will laugh very hard if he does worse than Chudzinski. I will also laugh very hard if, as is more likely, Chud fails spectacularly.

  • sloopyinca||

    What the fuck is a "Chudzinski"?

  • Hyperion||

    Wasn't that the guy, Ted Chudzinski, that hid in a cabin in Montana and sent letter bombs to people? The Unibomber or something like that?

  • Drake||

    Well, he will be working with a lot less talent than he had at Oregon.

  • ||

    Uh, the defense has talent. The key will be avoiding the appointment of an O-line coach as your Def Coord.

  • Brett L||

    If it makes you feel better, Warty, the Bears just hired a CFL coach. I'm waiting for Jacksonville to pick up the coach of the Rhine Fire.

  • LTC(ret) John||

    Rhine Fire?! Sod that, I'm a Frankfurt Galaxy man!

  • Virginian||

    Scottish Claymores baby.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    At least the Eagles hired a coach who's used to playing on a 100-yard field. WTF Bears?

  • ||

    You know that guy has years of NFL OC experience, right?

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Yeah, back when Vinny Testaverde was a hot commodity.

  • ||

    He has Steve Young's endorsement, what more do you need???

  • sloopyinca||

    OK, receivers, before he snaps the ball run toward the line at full speed. Then when you get to 54 yard line, run past each other and look back at the QB.

  • Ted S.||

    Wait until he claims the Bears should be awarded a rouge.

  • BakedPenguin||

    Or punts on third down.

  • KDN||

    Prepare for Oregon to get poleaxed by the NCAA in 3...2...

    Don't worry, Nike will create a new endowment for women's fencing to buy off the NCAA for another few years.

  • Death Rock and Skull||

    Guns have nothing to do with hunting for me. The only "hunting" I am interested in spending any time conducting is shooting animals that piss me off on my property, or maybe shooting a turkey if it wanders by, which is the only game animal I can think of that I would ever want to eat. Guns are just tools that I want to have around in case I need them to shoot some cans or burglars or revenuers.

  • ||

    "He hates these cans!"

    Be careful with that revenuers talk, DRS. If you also have too many cats, well, you can't be surprised when the cops raid and murder you.

  • BakedPenguin||

  • Killazontherun||

    Turkey over quail? Really, that's the only thing worth hunting that doesn't tip easily.

  • ||

    One usually must read a document before being referred to as a scholar of said document.

  • Loki||

    "Constitutional scholar" just means someone who has spent a lot of time thinking up ways around some of those limits that it places on the federal government. At least that's what it means to smug condescending progrsso-tard scumbags.

  • EDG reppin' LBC||

    Cuomo's comments in his State of the State speech last week, like Obama's tendency to ignore self-defense, suggest a fundamental misunderstanding of the right to keep and bear arms...

    No. It's not a misunderstanding. These assholes know exactly what the 2A means in re RKBA. At best, they just don't give a shit, and they are cynically trying to score political points, further their careers, and seem like "swell guys". At worst, they are fascists, looking to disarm the populace so they can implement their totalitarian state.

    Either way, fuck them. You want my guns? Come get them, motherfuckers.

  • sloopyinca||

    No. It's not a misunderstanding. These assholes know exactly what the 2A means in re RKBA.

    I wish just once a reporter would ask them what their interpretation of it is. Then they'll be on record.

  • Hyperion||

    I wish just once a reporter would ask them what their interpretation of it is. Then they'll be on record.

    Why should they care if it's on record? The ones of us who know, already know. But the low information voters that keep electing these jackasses, don't know, and will not learn because they don't care. They will willingly give up all of their freedoms for an EBT card or free birth control.

  • Restoras||

    How does the recoil of a .45 ACP compare with .40 S&W? Is there a noticeable difference? Does it depend on make and model?

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    The weight of the gun and stiffness of the recoil spring is going to be a big factor.

  • sloopyinca||

    If anybody would know about other people recoiling from their stiffness, it would be you Tulpa.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Your mom sure didn't recoil from my stiffness.

  • ||

    OH SNAP

  • nicole||

    He offered the world laughter!

  • ||

    You didn't put "laughter" in all caps, nicole, making you worse than Hitler. Way to go.

  • nicole||

    I have no rebuttal.

  • ||

    Enough about your ass already, nicole.

  • sloopyinca||

    Being a medical professional, she grabbed her magnifying glass and decided to try and find it...for science.

  • ||

    Normally we use pickups (forceps) as well. Special magnifying spectacles help as well.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    She managed to find my prostate just fine, even with handcuffs on.

  • ||

    Depends on the gun, depends on the load. My CZ 97B is a monster so its felt recoil is much less than, say, my Kel-Tec PF-9.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    The bullet from a .45 ACP (most types of ammo at least) has more momentum than one from .40 S&W. So all else being equal the 45 will produce more recoil.

  • Lord Humungus||

    what he said - firing a .40 cal gave me more control than a .45, and I've got some monster mitts.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Of course I'm a 9mm guy anyway since that gives you more capacity and is cheaper. so let's get the caliber fight started, yo.

  • squarooticus||

    Recoil from a fired bullet is going to be proportional to its kinetic energy, ½mv², so proportional to the mass of the projectile and proportional to the square of the velocity.

    Muzzle velocity of a standard load 230gr .45 ACP from a 5" barrel is approximately 830 ft/sec. Muzzle veocity of a standard load 180gr .40 S&W in your typical Springfield is 950 ft/sec. So, for guns of the same weight, I'd expect the recoil of each to be almost exactly the same, with the recoil of the .45 to be ever so slightly (3%) less.

    In practice, then, the weight of the gun and how it feels in your hand is going to make a bigger difference. 1911's are top-heavy as the slide is higher relative to your hand than on a typical (modern design) .40 S&W, so they will probably feel more kick as the moment arm is greater relative to the ideal position (being the center of your hand), but a .45 in a modern platform will probably act a lot like a .40.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Isn't recoil proportional to momentum? p = mv = 2E/v

    Which is why 9mm tends to have lower recoil than 45acp despite having higher energy. Its v is higher.

  • squarooticus||

    I disagree: you don't feel the momentum, you feel your own expenditure of energy in stopping the gun from moving. Using momentum to compare recoil would make sense if you were trying to judge how far the gun flew across the room if you let go of it right as you fire it, but of course that's not what we're doing.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    But the gun's kinetic energy (which is the negative work done by your hand) and the bullet's kinetic energy are not necessarily directly proportional. In fact I'd be surprised if they were.

  • squarooticus||

    They'd better be damn close to each other (leaving room for heat loss, etc.), or Houston, we have a conservation of energy problem.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    The two kinetic energies are additive so CoE isn't going to be helped by them being equal. There are energy inputs from the chemical energy of the powder and primer and the energy your muscles, so it's not a closed system anyway.

    The gun initially has velocity v_g = p_g / m_g = m_b * v_b / m_g

    and kinetic energy E_g = p_g * v_g / 2 = (m_b * v_b)^2 / ( 2 * m_g ) = p^2 / (2*m_g)

    so it's proportional to the square of the momentum of the bullet. Though some of the energy is absorbed by the recoil spring in a semiauto.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Or more elegantly, the KE of the gun is the KE of the bullet times the ratio of the bullet's mass to the gun's.

  • squarooticus||

    There is an analogy to wind chill: people don't actually feel temperature; what they feel is rather closer to the rate at which they're losing heat. This is why it feels colder out when it's windy, because your body is in fact losing heat at a much faster rate.

  • Gray Ghost||

    The propellant gasses also play a role in recoil. Somewhat modeled here in this recoil calculator.

    I don't find either objectionable, in a pistol that fits my hand. OTOH, shooting my friends POS Jennings (Really; I thought they were a myth.) 9mm with crappy plastic grips stung a bit after only a box.

  • squarooticus||

    Neat. Link bookmarked. Thanks!

  • mad libertarian guy||

    A full size 1911 is no problem. A compact 1911 made out of light weight aluminum hurts pretty badly.

  • np||

    Missouri lawmaker latest to propose “violent” games tax
    Republican State Representative Diane Franklin of rural Camdenton has introduced House Bill 157 (PDF) that would add a one percent excise tax on the sale of games rated T or above by the ESRB.

  • Pro Libertate||

    How about a tax on stupid bills?

  • Generic Stranger||

    I say we tax lawmakers. At 100%.

  • PersonFromPorlock||

    So... if the Second Amendment is about hunting, is a fee charged for a hunting license any more constitutional than a poll tax?

  • bonesteelwarren||

    "On every question of construction (of the constitution) let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
    Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, June12, 1823
    The Complete Jefferson
    http://oll.libertyfund.org/?op.....&Itemid=27

    “That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of The United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms…”
    Samuel Adams
    http://archive.org/details/deb.....00massrich

GET REASON MAGAZINE

Get Reason's print or digital edition before it’s posted online

  • Video Game Nation: How gaming is making America freer – and more fun.
  • Matt Welch: How the left turned against free speech.
  • Nothing Left to Cut? Congress can’t live within their means.
  • And much more.

SUBSCRIBE

advertisement