Does Springtime for Android Mean Winter for WINTEL Machines?

The image above is pulled from a fascinating slide show put together by venture-capitalist Mary Meeker.

It shows long-term trends in personal computer sales based on operating system. In 1983, Wintel machines - effectively PCs running on a Microsoft system - commanded just 25 percent of the market. For a good chunk of the late 1990s through the early 21st century, Wintel machines pulled 96 percent of the market. Those days look like they are gone for good, thanks mostly to Google's Android OS, which is powering an ever-growing variety of smart phones, tablets, and more.

Question: How many of you think that the only thing standing between endless total domination of the PC world by Microsoft was the misguided federal antitrust case focused on Seattle's Evil Empire bundling a free web browser with its OS? How many think that the decline of Microsoft's dominance (and in different way, that of IBM and Intel) was mostly, if not completely due to the dog-eat-dog world of market-driven creative destruction?

Bonus queries: What does it mean that sales of tablets and smart phones are now bigger than those of PCs? What does it mean that Apple, despite its ability to radically transform digital appliances (iPod, iPhone, iPad) can't really crank up its overall OS market share?

Dylan Tweney of Venturebeat summarizes some of the other findings (and posts Meeker's endlessly engaging slideshow too). Some snippets:

  • Meeker’s data show 2.4 billion Internet users worldwide, a number that’s still growing eight percent yearly.
  • There are 1.1 billion smartphone subscribers worldwide — but that’s still just 17 percent of the global cellphone market.
  • 29 percent of adults in the U.S. now own either a tablet or an e-reader.
  • Mobile devices now account for 13 percent of worldwide Internet traffic, up from 4 percent in 2010.
  • Mobile app and advertising revenue has grown at an annual rate of 129 percent since 2008, and now tops $19 billion.
  • Mobile traffic app Waze has been adding users faster than all GPS makers combined have sold personal navigation units, and it’s been that way since the beginning of 2012.

Here's Meeker's slideshow:

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  • Fladnag the Yarg||

    I'm reading this on my Android powered tablet while the WinTel desktop sits upstairs largely unused.

  • ||

    I'm reading this on my Apple iMac, which functions as a stereo (Pandora), movie theater and TV (alluc.org), newspaper (Reason and others), research assistant (Google), chauffeur assistant (Google maps) and whorehouse (OK, sluthouse -- who pays for HD pr0n any more?)

  • ||

    I'm reading this on my windows Laptop from work, while my Android phone is at home charging next to my windows personal laptop and my windows desktop, which I use to watch movies on the projector and listen to music, and is hooked up to the Dolby 5.1 digital home theater system. Which is networked with the four other computers in the house so anyone can remote desktop in and play what they want.

    I don't think windows is losing market share. They're just counting smart phones as "personal computers".

  • robc||

    They're just counting smart phones as "personal computers".

    Arent they?

    [Three fronts, yeah that will work better]

  • EDG reppin' LBC||

    Sorry I'm not replying to your comment directly. I just wanted to alert any newcomers to the nerd vs. nerd violence that erupts downthread. Be warned. Commenter robc opened a two-front war, that is hopefully going to become an epic H&R thread.

  • robc||

    I feel like Napolean and Hitler combined.

    Its winter, time to invade Russia again!

  • ||

    Tune in for the surprising conclusion of whether Android is Linux or not, and whether Mocrosoft's headquarters counts as being in Seattle.

  • $park¥||

    When you give someone a shiny new device it doesn't take them long to believe they can't live without it.

    Most people who buy the devices have no idea how they work, they just know it does something they need/want it to do. Superior advertising is all it takes to convince someone they need to upgrade NOW.

  • rts||

  • WTF||

    Why aren't the U.S. and Europe exerting more diplomatic pressure on these tax havens that are effectively stealing from the U.S. and European treasuries ...

    Because keeping more of your own money is stealing. Jeebus Christ on a cracker these people are vile.

  • robc||

    Just want to point out that Android runs on linux, for anyone who ever said that linux wouldnt have a big market share.

  • 0073735963||

    "Just want to point out that Android runs on linux"

    Well, kind of...

    "for anyone who ever said that linux wouldnt have a big market share."

    It still doesn't, Android, which is distinctly different, does.

  • robc||

    Android isnt distinctly different, its a linux-based OS, just like Red Hat or Suse or whatever.

    Going a little Richard Stallman here (ugh), but linux is the kernel, not the OS.

  • 0073735963||

    "Android isnt distinctly different"

    Um, yes it is.

    " but linux is the kernel, not the OS."

    Which I knew, and is why I took issue with your claim.

    Two cars with the same engine are in no way the same car just because they have the same engine.

    The rest of Android is binary incompatible. It's not "Linux", it's a custom OS built on an ANDROID SPECIFIC LINUX DERIVED KERNEL.

    Which, by NO measure, makes it "linux".

    Have a nice day, I hope I helped you avoid being wrong about this in the future.

  • 0073735963||

    He's gonna come back and cry about it, in a pathetic attempt to look like he knows what he's talking about.

    Let's watch.

  • robc||

    I do know what Im talking about, Im right on this. How an OS built on linux isnt linux is beyond all comprehension.

    Every linux kernel shipped is one linux kernel shipped.

  • 0073735963||

    Yes, there it is, cry about your ignorance.

    " is beyond all comprehension."

    Of course it is, you don't know what you're talking about.

  • robc||

    You are a fucking retard.

    How is a linux kernel not a linux kernel?

  • 0073735963||

    "How is a linux kernel not a linux kernel?"

    How can you not read a fucking answer when it's given stupid asshole who constantly cries like an idiot bitch anytime anyone even remotely intimates you made a mistake?

    I TOLD YOU already stupid fuck, are you really so impossibly stupid that you can't read the answer to a question you clearly don't even understand?

    See, I said you'd come back and cry.

  • 0073735963||

    "Every linux kernel shipped is one linux kernel shipped."

    I love your stupid made up standards for what makes something something.

  • robc||

    A=A is a "stupid made up standard"

    Noted.

  • robc||

    Im not wrong.

    Any OS built on the linux kernel is linux.

    That is what linux is, the kernel.

  • 0073735963||

    "Any OS built on the linux kernel is linux."

    Lol, no

    "That is what linux is, the kernel."

    Does not follow

    I love that you hate being wrong so much you can't even muster an argument that makes sense

  • Citizen Nothing||

    Nerd fight!!!!!

  • EDG reppin' LBC||

  • 0073735963||

    Should I link you to the "minix" variant that is definitely NOT linux?

    It's like you think reading a few web boards made you capable of not being completely wrong about this.

  • robc||

    Im well aware of minix. Its not a variant, its a precursor.

    Not all unixes are compatible, but HPUX and Solaris and AIX and etc are all still "unix".

    Not all BSDs are compatible, but OpenBSD and FreeBSD and etc are all still "BSD".

  • tarran||

    "Any OS built on the linux kernel is linux."

    Lol, no

    Dude, you'd better not say that shit in front of Stallman, 'cause he'll curb stomp your ass.

  • robc||

    And whine that you arent using HURD.

  • np||

    Different distros can be binary incompatible, and the same distro can be binary incompatible with itself through different versions of libraries or the different versions of the kernel, so that is in no way a criteria

    It's linux. It shares the same system source and APIs under the hood.

  • 0073735963||

    "It's linux. It shares the same system source and APIs under the hood."

    Well, since that has fuck all to do with anything, I'll politley ask you to keep out of this discussion.

    Sources and API's...

    And it DOESN"T share the same sources lol

  • ||

    You must be great at parties

  • JW||

    I'm really torn between filtering this psychotic episode and being entertained.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    If you have a choice, always choose "being entertained."
    It's what's got me this far in life.

  • JW||

    How about you just shut the fuck up and let people talk?

    Oh, do go on, please. I'm going with "endlessly entertaining."

  • Citizen Nothing||

    The answer was "no", apparently

  • Citizen Nothing||

    How about you just shut the fuck up and let people talk?

    isn't a yes or no question? Must be a linux thingy.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    Sorry. Maybe you were referring to the "Why are you such an idiot...dicksucker...?" question. Then, sure, "yes" or "no" would probably be an insufficient answer. My bad.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    I mean a conversation that went -- "Why are you such an idiot dicksucker?"
    "No!"
    -- would hardly makes sense, so I see your point.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    I've got him on the ropes, robc!
    I'm tappin' out!

  • Citizen Nothing||

    It's a Citizen Nothing can't read worth a fuck and trolls discussions he's too stupid to contribute to thingy.


    Yes!
    Wait -- I mean, no!

  • some guy||

    I'll bet 0073735963 is proud of the fact that he is so smart for his age...

  • Numeromancer||

    Be careful. It's funny now, but this guy will obviously never have anything better to do.

  • tarran||

    At this point they do, I believe.

    Android developers forked their kernel from the main Linux code base back in 2009-2010 IIRC. I believe that over the last 12 months their changes have been absorbed into the main Linux codebase to the point where 98% of the Android Kernel is Linux.

    These flame wars are kind of pointless.

  • ||

    "Endlessly entertaining" was correct, JW. This is great stuff.

  • JW||

    Yeah, but it'll get old soon enough. Crazy always does.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    ...you feel a childish need to show someone you don't know up on the internet.


    For some strange reason, the phrase "lack of self-awareness" comes to mind. I can't possibly think why.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    Your reading skills fail you again CN, stop trolling, really.


    Yes!
    Wait -- I mean, no!

  • Citizen Nothing||

    AGAIN, because you know it makes you look like an asshole


    Yes!
    Wait -- I mean, no!

  • Citizen Nothing||

    I didn't bother to read this comment.

  • ||

    So if I have an iPad that runs Linux can I use Android apps on it?

  • Emmerson Biggins||

    "Android developers forked their kernel from the main Linux code base back in 2009-2010 IIRC. "

    oh. so it is linux. thanks for clarifying.

  • ||

    Oh, no, Megatroll. This is great stuff. You're doing great work here.

  • JW||

    Oh, no, Megatroll. This is great stuff.

    At some point, we'll have to send in Spackler to see if it's a doody or a Baby Ruth bar.

  • ||

    Damn dude, you're throwing down the PWNage like it's a bodily function.

  • ||

    Just so you people who are making fun of it know your audience, this is the troll who used to change handles constantly before registration. FUCK YOU WARTY was my favorite handle that it used. Can you go back to it, number troll?

  • Generic Stranger||

    Did they delete a shitload of #'s posts? They made it look like Citizen Nothing was arguing with himself there for a little while...

  • Citizen Nothing||

    That's crazy talk!

  • Citizen Nothing||

    No, THAT'S crazy talk!

  • Corneliusm||

    Stallman calls it GNU/Linux.

  • robc||

    Yes, that is him stressing that linux is the kernel. He claims the gnu tools make it an OS.

    Which is him being an ass. Doesnt make him wrong, just an ass.

  • some guy||

    Wow. I haven't been this entertained since Caucasian Subasian was trolling around. Expletive-laden ad hominem attacks are certainly the best way to make other people agree with you...

    What's the over/under on 0073735963's age? I'm going with 15.

  • ||

    Caucasian Subasian

    How coincidentally coincidental that this troll is coincidentally identical to that troll.

  • some guy||

    Is it just me or did a bunch (but not all) of 0073735963's posts just vanish?

  • Citizen Nothing||

    Not just you.

  • ||

    How coincidental.

  • Brandon||

    I use a Dell.

  • ||

    Seattle's Evil Empire

    MICROSOFT IS BASED IN REDMOND NICK

    I was just using a Microsoft Surface the other day, and it's pretty slick. I think MS may recapture some market share back with it, though it was running the ARM version of Windows 8 (Windows RT) which as I understand it can't run x86/x64 programs, which is kind of a problem. They'll have Win8 Pro Surfaces soon enough, but they'll cost $900.

  • robc||

    Ive been on the microsoft campus. It was part of Seattle, regardless of what the official boundaries are.

  • ||

    Don't be absurd. Redmond is 40 minutes from Seattle. I can probably get to Tacoma faster. Yeah, MS is closely associated with Seattle, but they're on the east side and more associated with Bellevue than anything else.

  • robc||

    Tacoma is also part of Seattle.

  • ||

    You should probably stick to what you know, rob, which is Kentucky, because it sure as fuck isn't Seattle. This statement alone is so utterly wrong that I'm kind of embarrassed for you.

  • robc||

    If you share a fucking airport, you are the same city. Regardless of local government boundaries.

    Next you are going to tell me that St Pete and Tampa arent the same city.

    Or Minneapolis and St Paul.

  • Pro Libertate||

    Someday, there will be a war between Minneapolis and St. Paul. In other words, between the Scandinavians and the Germans.

  • robc||

    When Germans attack, dont the Scandinavians declare themselves "neutral"?

  • ||

    Really, rob, are you going to be this obtuse? Do you think that people go to Tacoma for dinner? For a night out? This is really a retarded argument that I don't even believe I'm having.

  • Pro Libertate||

    It's all the same metro area, regardless of how people there see it. There's what, 15 miles between Seattle and Redmond?

  • robc||

    I doubt people in Seattle go to Tacoma for a night out, but I bet people in Tacoma go to Seattle.

    Just like people in Louisville dont go to Middletown for a night out but people in Middletown go to Louisville.

    Note: Since 2002, the city of Middletown is inside the city of Louisville, which means I live in two cities, but that is beside the point. Or maybe it is the point, as arbitrary local boundaries are just that, arbitrary.

    Commuting patterns are a better indicator.

  • Night Elf Mohawk||

    If you share a fucking airport, you are the same city. Regardless of local government boundaries.

    Dallas and Fort Worth as distinct cities, regardless of simple-minded and ignorant attempts to equate them due to an airport that is in neither Dallas nor Fort Worth.

  • robc||

    They may have distinct governments, but they are one fucking metro area, which makes them one city to everyone who doesnt live there.

  • Night Elf Mohawk||

    You mean "to everyone who doesn't know better." Hell, most people who don't live here think every part of Texas looks like something out of The Lone Ranger. That doesn't make them right.

    One metro area != one city. Your position is so full of stupid it threatens to collapse into a singularity.

  • robc||

    You agree that Brooklyn and the Bronx are part of one city, right?

    Other than arbitrary government boundaries, what makes Dallas/Ft Worth two cities while Brooklyn and Manhattan and the Bronx and Staten Island and Queens are all one?

    Heck, they dont even share an airport, they have got 3 between them.

  • EDG reppin' LBC||

    Wrong. I'm reppin' Long Beach. Not Los Angeles, not Orange County. Hell we even have a separate city within our borders. But no one claims Signal Hill is the same as Long Beach.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    So much drama in the LBC...

  • robc||

    But no one claims Signal Hill is the same as Long Beach.

    Thats because Signal Hill is clearly part of LA.

  • Night Elf Mohawk||

    Other than arbitrary government boundaries, what makes Dallas/Ft Worth two cities...

    Different cultures, different approaches to business and tourism, different approaches to downtown commerce and residency, among other things.

    Fort Worth affirmatively positions itself as a smaller, friendlier city that largely embraces Texas and Western heritage while Dallas largely doesn't. Fort Worth markets The Stockyards, Billy Bob's, and "where the West begins." Dallas tries to be a generic metropolitan area that just happens to be in Texas.

    You'd be hard pressed to find two people on the planet with actual knowledge of the cities who found them anything more than superficially similar.

  • robc||

    The same argument could be made for Manhattan and Staten Island.

  • ||

    If you share a fucking airport, you are the same city. Regardless of local government boundaries.

    The City of SeaTac, where one airport is, is a city. Everett, where another airport is, is a different city. Seattle is yet another different city. Tacoma is still another different city. And anyone who has spent time in both Seattle and Tacoma knows they are completely different entities, culturewise and politically.

  • robc||

    Different neighborhoods are often different culturewise and politically.

    Let me try another definition. If you can commute between one and another without going thru a rural county, you havent really changed cities.

    The Census definition of MSA probably is better, but Im okay with this one too.

    Which may make Boston to DC one city, but Im okay with that. :)

  • ||

    Let me try another definition. If you can commute between one and another without going thru a rural county, you havent really changed cities.

    Have you ever driven from Seattle to Tacoma? Or looked at Google Earth for the area? There are some distinctly green, rural-ish areas between the two cities, in particular the stretch from Renton to Federal Way to Fife.

  • robc||

    Have you ever driven from Seattle to Tacoma? Or looked at Google Earth for the area? There are some distinctly green, rural-ish areas between the two cities, in particular the stretch from Renton to Federal Way to Fife.

    Ive driven from SeaTac to Seattle and back, so, I guess, no. I drove from Seattle to Redmond, and I never felt like I left the city. When I drove to Rainier, I felt like I left the city.

    So, whats the rural county in between King and Pierce?

  • Night Elf Mohawk||

    If you can commute between one and another without going thru a rural county, you havent really changed cities.

    If you think you haven't changed cities when you go from Dallas (population 1,223,229) to Alvarado (population 3,831) or Crowley (population 13,131) simply because you haven't passed through a rural county, then you are using a definition that bears no relation to how the people who actually live there think about it.

    Hell, reverse it. Anyone who said someone who left Alvarado and arrived in Dallas is stil in the "same city" who get the ridicule he so richly deserves, from anyone with even a passing acquaintance with either city.

  • robc||

    I think going from Dallas to Alvarado, I would say something like "Im clearly on the rural outskirts of Dallas now". But I think driving from Dallas to Ft Worth, you would never feel like you left a city at all.

    The outer part of any MSA generally gets very rural. Part of the problem is the county defintion. The counties surrounding Jefferson that are a part of the Louisville MSA start as suburbs of the city (which is why they got added to the MSA in recent decades, as people built just outside Jefferson Co to commute in) but by the time you get deeper into the county, its really somewhere else.

    If the Census would split the counties at a certain point it would probably make more sense. Using Shelby Co as an example, once you get east of Shelbyville, no real need to call it "Louisville" anymore. And, yes, people in Shelbyville would deny it being part of Louisville, but to an outsider, its clearly part of the metro area.

  • Night Elf Mohawk||

    And, yes, people in Shelbyville would deny it being part of Louisville, but to an outsider, its clearly part of the metro area.

    Maybe outsiders, going by feel, aren't the best judges.

    Again, same MSA != same city. I notice you seem to have skipped right over the differences between Dallas and Fort Worth I listed.

    And there are some pretty rural stretches, anyway between Dallas and Fort Worth, on either I-20 or I-30, so you'd definitely "feel" like you left a city.

  • robc||

    I notice you seem to have skipped right over the differences between Dallas and Fort Worth I listed.

    I responded at 1:13.

  • ||

    Seattle and Tacoma are not "one metro area", unless driving through kinda woodsy and rural-ish areas to get from one to another somehow makes them part of the same metro area.

    It's about an hour drive from Seattle to Tacoma in light traffic, of which there is precious little unless you are driving at 3 am.

    Next you are gonna be trying to convince people that Everett and Olympia (and mebbe Portland) are part of one metro area.

  • robc||

    Seattle and Tacoma are not "one metro area"

    The US Census Dept disagrees. They might be wrong, they are a government agency, but seems reasonable to me.

    From the census page:
    Each metro or micro area consists of one or more counties and includes the counties containing the core urban area, as well as any adjacent counties that have a high degree of social and economic integration (as measured by commuting to work) with the urban core.

    They think enough people commute between Pierce and King to make them part of the same MSA.

  • johnl||

    For example: Cincinnati is the principital city of Boone County Kentucky.

  • some guy||

    If you share a fucking airport, you are the same city. Regardless of local government boundaries.

    By this logic Baltimore and DC are the same city. I think the definition of "city" is more complicated than that.

    That being said, I've never heard of Redmond, WA, so as far as I'm concerned its part of either Seattle or Tacoma, both of which I have heard of. Apparently it's closer to Seattle, so Seattle wins.

  • robc||

    IIRC, there was a big kerfuffle back in 2000 over Baltimore and DC, as there was talk of making them one MSA.

    They are the same Combined Statistical Area. But they are still considered separate MSAs.

    And they have 3 airports, 2 for DC and 1 for Baltimore. Although many people going to DC use BWI too.

  • some guy||

    @robc

    Agreed. I'm on your side on this one. If someone said that Reston, VA was part of DC I wouldn't go all caps trying to tell them that the two are distinct. Anyone from the area knows they are distinct, but if you aren't from the area you've probably never heard of Reston. Or if you have you think to yourself "Oh yeah, the town in Hot Zone. That's in DC right?"

  • Brandon||

    Gotta go with Robc on this one.

  • robc||

    US Census Dept says Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue is one MSA. Works for me.

  • fried wylie||

    US Census Dept says ...

    Where's my checklist of which federal agencies it's ok to trust data from....

  • robc||

    That is about it.

    Im not sure I trust their population count numbers, but figuring out which counties to smush together into MSAs seems like something they are decent at.

    I can verify in cases where I know the area that they are reasonable.

    And based on that one week in spent in the Seattle area in 2000, Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue seemed like all one metro area to me.

  • Spoonman.||

    Not really. Why the hell is Delta County part of Dallas/Fort Worth?

  • fried wylie||

    Why the hell is Delta County part of Dallas/Fort Worth?

    Ohhhh, man. Nothing like a good census designation throwdown!

  • fried wylie||

    (aside from a tractor pull, naturally)

  • robc||

    Why the hell is Delta County part of Dallas/Fort Worth?

    Without knowing anything at all about it, I would guess a significant number of people commute in from Delta Co for work.

    Delta does seem like the oddball, looking at a map.

    Scott County, Indiana was only a part of the Louisville MSA for the 2000 census. Not before that, and not in 2010. Screwup by Census, or real effect where they went over the magical line in 2000 but fell back below it by 2010? Scottsburg has its own MSA now, so I guess it grew to the point to be its own or something.

  • Pro Libertate||

    Then there's Atlanta.

  • robc||

    Then there's Atlanta.

    Yes. The official city boundary doesnt even fill Fulton County, but Sandy Springs is still part of Atlanta.

  • ||

    And based on that one week in spent in the Seattle area in 2000, Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue seemed like all one metro area to me.

    Based on having lived in that area 1982 to 1996, I'd say you don't really know the area nearly as well as you think you do.

  • ||

    This flame thread is far less entertaining than the Linux/Android one.

  • robc||

    This flame thread is far less entertaining than the Linux/Android one.

    I agree. Unlike #guy, people down here have legitimate points to make.

    I understand why a St Paulian wouldnt want to be associated with Minneapolis.

  • SugarFree||

    The main thing I notice about Minneapolis is how many people you meet used to live there.

  • Pro Libertate||

    I used to live there. But only temporarily and from somewhere else. The natives regularly asked me why on Earth I'd voluntarily relocate to Minneapolis. They've quite the split personality on how they feel about the state, which they love and they despise simultaneously.

  • Night Elf Mohawk||

    But he's even more indefensibly wrong on this one, so there's that.

  • robc||

    Based on having lived in that area 1982 to 1996, I'd say you don't really know the area nearly as well as you think you do.

    Did you miss the sarcasm? Obviously 1 week isnt enough time to get to know the area. Thats why Im relying on census definitions.

    And listening to insiders doesnt work either, as they have biases. Im still pissed about our city-county merger from a decade ago.

  • ||

    Listen, you idiots, text parsing is trivial.

  • ||

    NINE HUNDRED DOLLARS!?!

    I'm sorry...they are going to get they're assess handed to them by Google. Consider the piece of shit Craig (the king of ghetto gear) Tablet for $100. $100. I don't care how big of a piece of shit it is...it shows that you can get stuff out there, with Android, real real cheap.

    I still don't understand this whole tablet phase. Is it worth $300 to be able to sit on my couch instead of the desk 30' away?

  • robc||

    Yes.

    Its also easier to haul a tablet on trips than a laptop.

    A tablet doesnt replace a desktop machine, it replaces a laptop, IMO.

  • ||

    Yeah, the high price point for the Pro version is retarded. If they offered a Pro Surface for $500 I'd buy one in a heartbeat...but $900? Come on. I have a Galaxy S III, that'll do the job.

  • JW||

    Come on. I have a Galaxy S III, that'll do the job.

    No, no you don't. It will do some things, but it can't replace a laptop.

    The Pro version is designed to replace a full laptop with a tablet form factor, so you can run native Windows apps, unlike the RT version. So there, yes, $900 is comparable.

    Who knows if it will sell, but bully to MS for trying.

  • ||

    My point is that what I would use a tablet for is mostly surfing in the vicinity of the TV. I can use my Galaxy for that. Would a tablet with a case keyboard be better? Absolutely. For $900? Uh, no.

  • JW||

    Well, duh, yeah, for that it would. My failing eyes would prefer a tablet, but even there I need my readin' glasses to see clearly.

    Still, my tablet sits on the table by the TV and I'll still go to the next room to look up something on the PC. It's faster and easier. The tablet is for when I'm *not* near my PC.

  • JW||

    Point of fact: I use my tablet on the crapper, more than anywhere else.

  • np||

    Can the x86 Pro version run desktop mode?

    Because that's the only way it'll run regular wintel apps.

    If it still is limited to the same Metro/native Win 8 interface, you are stuck with the MS store to get your apps, like everyone is, for any device, including PC.

    Aside from that, a the problem with the Surface Pro I've read is the dismal battery life.

  • fried wylie||

    The review I read indicated that the Pro will run whatever x86/64 app you want to install, from wherever you buy your software.

  • JW||

    Aside from that, a the problem with the Surface Pro I've read is the dismal battery life.

    How can there be a review when it hasn't even been released yet?

  • fried wylie||

    Pre-production model.

    Link

  • JW||

    I wouldn't put too much stock in a pre-production review 4 months before the device is released and when there is very little info that isn't 2nd and 3rd hand.

    Tech blogs can be great for up-to-the-minute news, I read them every day. But they can also be massively retarded, all of them recycling and regurgitating the same single data point through all of their sites.

  • fried wylie||

    Fair enough. Just sharing the available info.

  • fried wylie||

    If they offered a Pro Surface for $500

    It's called waiting 6months after the release. Lrn2Shop, noob.

  • Pro Libertate||

    I may get a new tablet (have a first-issue Fire already) for Christmas. Any recommendations? I have reservations about getting anything too high-end, with children trained in the art of destroying things.

  • JW||

    I may get a new tablet (have a first-issue Fire already) for Christmas. Any recommendations?

    For myself, I'll get a Surface RT next, but there are tons of inexpensive 7-inch Android tablets coming on the market and there's the Fire HD too.

  • ||

    I am pretty much sold on the Surface RT next as well. My only reservation is the app market. Do you it will be popular enough to warrant a NCAA March Madness app in time? Because watching college basketball at work would be a necessary function of any tablet I own.

  • JW||

    Who knows, they might. I've seen stuff like that pop out unexpectedly. But yeah, no competition app-wise with iOS at the moment.

    I find that I don't really use the majority of the apps I download, so no big deal to me.

  • fried wylie||

    If my kindneys were just a lil better than worthless, I'd sell one to get a Nexus7. Looks really nice buck-bang-wise.

  • DaveSs||

    Nexus 7

    Performance is great, the size of the device is just right (roughly the same as a Fire, but much lighter) and you can't beat the price.

  • pmains||

    I was just using a Microsoft Surface the other day, and it's pretty slick.

    Oh, cut the crap. It is awful. I work as a computer programmer. A team in my office recently wrote an app for "Surface," and was just as repulsed as I was. Windows 8 in all of its malevolent forms will be the death of Microsoft if they don't rush a replacement out ASAP (as they did with XP to atone for ME, and Win7 for Vista).

    At least ME was usable until it slowly ground to a halt and essentially forced you to upgrade to XP. Win8/Surface/whatever is absurdly unusable. You click on tiles and you come to an app that no sane person would ever create, because it looks like crap and doesn't have a UI that looks like a UI. Where should I click or tap? I know, let me throw this piece of garbage out and get an Android.

    And that brings me to my next point. Surface looks like somebody had once seen an iOS or Android device and said, "gee, let's make a parody of this. They have little icons. We'll half-ass some two-tone icons that sort of look the way Hollywood would portray a fictional tablet device."

  • JW||

    "gee, let's make a parody of this. They have little icons. We'll half-ass some two-tone icons that sort of look the way Hollywood would portray a fictional tablet device."

    Meh, whatevs. It's a preference.

    It's also a decision decision motivated as much by the need to look different than iOS and legally, so you don't get sued by Apple for "look and feel." The tiles also give you more information at a glance than you could get from a simple icon.

    It was smart on their part to not be another iOS clone, mush as Android is.

  • fried wylie||

    This is the Surface review I needed to read. Ty.

  • JW||

    Not really, since he's confusing Windows 8 and Windows RT.

  • fried wylie||

    The factual accuracy was not the primary value I enjoyed.

  • JW||

    Got it. Or just go to any tech site and you can get the same thing every day from the Apple fanbois in the comments.

  • ||

    Microsoft themselves has been constantly and wrongly conflating the two.

  • sarcasmic||

    Just picked up a netbook for the wife that runs Windows 8, and I just know she's going to love it!

    It's red!

  • tarran||

    OK, guys. I've decided to start doing some tablet/smartphone app development as a side business.

    Anybody have an application that they really really wish someone would write? If I develop your idea, you will get the pay version for free in perpetuity for all versions.

  • ||

    Porn something something porn.

  • tarran||

    These are the helpful suggestions I knew I would get from the commentariat.

  • fried wylie||

    How about an app that collects helpful suggestions from the commentariat?

  • $park¥||

    I think he wants it to actually do something.

  • fried wylie||

    Functionality is overrated.

  • ||

    Anybody have an application that they really really wish someone would write?

    Something with LOLCats.

  • sarcasmic||

    Can you write something that will remove the shirts of the female Reason contributors who are not named Kennedy?

  • tarran||

    It already exists.

    The python code to make it all automagic is left as an exercise to the user.

  • SugarFree||

    Mobile torrent search and download. If you could avoid being sued, you'd make a mint.

  • ||

    I was thinking a knitting app like this one, but that also has some sort of single sign-on with Ravelry.com or can do a faceted web search for knitting patterns, both free and paid.

  • fried wylie||

    is it really worth the dev time for an app that maybe 5-6 people, worldwide, would want? or is knitting the new hobby-hotness?

  • ||

    Ravelry alone has 2 million members.

  • fried wylie||

    1.99million of whom joined to make fun of the other 6.

  • EDG reppin' LBC||

    ...or is knitting the new hobby-hotness?

    Yeah. It's a real thing.

  • np||

    Develop your own app store[*] Then you can take Epi's advice along with other folks who would be rejected.

    So now you've the niche, the fringe, but to attract the mainstream, you can undercut other stores. They're asking 30%, you can do 20% or less. Maybe also have volume sales discounts for every certain number of app units.

    Except for malicious apps, you can have an anything goes policy. Curation groups can be setup by the community, to offer their own optional filters and recommendations.

    [*] not legally possible for Metro and Apple. Your store would be limited to Android, Linux, Windows desktop mode.

  • ant1sthenes||

    PunchableOrNot. It's like HotOrNot, for people like Glenn Beck or Ezra Klein.

  • Brandon||

    Serious question: Could you do a ski tracker app that lets you see where the idiot tourists you're supposed to be babysitting ended up?

  • fried wylie||

    Mobile devices aren't Personal Computers, yet. And isn't the market share sort of distorted by the fact that EVERYBODY has a smartphone/tablet nowadays, while some people just don't need (and so have never bought) a personal computer ("Eh, I just use the one at work").

    Until a tablet can beat my desktop in FLOPs/Dollar, I'll still need my beast to run Luxrender. Also, I doubt they'll ever make a 4.5ft wide, 5670x1080 tablet.

  • Fladnag the Yarg||

    Just wait until you can plug your tablet into your 80" big screen "TV"

  • fried wylie||

    TVs don't have the pixel density. Huge blurry text doesn't make for a pleasant computing experience.

  • mad libertarian guy||

    I already can. Only I don't need to plug it in.

  • $park¥||

    I have a smartphone issued by my job. I use it at work then it sits on my dresser when I get home. My own personal cell phone is an old school flip phone which only has a camera because you can't get them without these days.

  • fried wylie||

    My phone-phone neither flips, nor has a camera. BOOYAH. (my phone and that booyah were both transported from the same point in spacetime...)

    (My droid phone doesn't actually have phone service, it never leaves WiFi range of the house lol.)

  • SugarFree||

    How hipster of the both of you. Maybe you guys should ride your fixie bikes together sometime.

  • fried wylie||

    Look, just because I've managed to not-break my phone for half-a-decade, and hardly ever using it have no inclination to ever upgrade it till it does die, does not a hipster make, You slanderous curr.

  • $park¥||

    I wouldn't expect the genetically inferior to understand.

  • SugarFree||

    And with all the money you've saved, you can afford some artisanal mayo.

  • fried wylie||

    (it nearly passed unto Silicon Heaven after a recent dip in a glass of wine, but dried out fine and survived the ordeal with only minimal display distortion)

  • JW||

    Bonus queries: What does it mean that sales of tablets and smart phones are now bigger than those of PCs? What does it mean that Apple, despite its ability to radically transform digital appliances (iPod, iPhone, iPad) can't really crank up its overall OS market share?

    That relatively cheap, portable devices compliment PCs very nicely, but won't replace the PC model completely for some time. Phones and tablets are still mostly personal consumption devices and not for business productivity, but that *is* changing. Just not as fast as the pundits claim it's changing.

    I have both a spanking new Windows smartphone (Nokia Lumia 920) and an Android tablet (Motorola Xoom) with a real, mini keyboard, but I will still do the bulk of my work on a PC. Nothing can beat the full keyboard with a large screen combination for actual productivity.

    I'll take my tablet with my on travel, instead of a laptop, unless I have serious work to do, since it weighs a fraction of a laptop. But, it can't replace a laptop outright. Tablets still have a ways to go in terms of computing power.

    In short, they all have their uses and advantages, but to make a phone or tablet your primary or only computing platform, is still very premature, except for those whose limited habits don't require the power of a desktop/laptop.

  • fried wylie||

    portable devices compliment PCs very nicely

    My droid dev phone has replaced Calc.exe. It sits there propped up on my eyeglass case, running the wallpapers that I developed when Its not calculating.

  • fried wylie||

    (I tried building a stand for the phone out of legos, but the initial design was wanting. I've let my lego skills atrophy too far...)

  • np||

    I would highly recommend this Business Insider presentation, if you're interested in a more nuanced view and comprehensive view of pros and cons:
    http://www.businessinsider.com.....es-2012-11

    It's a ton of slides, but bear with it, though it does have a few twists after leading you to maintain interest. Essentially the conclusion is: you can't sacrifice one for the other

  • JW||

    Question: How many of you think that the only thing standing between endless total domination of the PC world by Microsoft was the misguided federal antitrust case focused on Seattle's Evil Empire bundling a free web browser with its OS?

    Not me. I told people repeatedly at the time that with or without an anti-trust case (and Judge Sleepy Jackson's Solomonic wisdom), MS's days were numbered. Someone will come along with a better model in a few years or the technology and culture will change to obsolesce them, just like it did for IBM and Apple of the 80's.

    Predictably, we sensible Cassandras will be conveniently forgotten and/or ignored.

  • DRM||

    Question: How many of you think that the only thing standing between endless total domination of the PC world by Microsoft was the misguided federal antitrust case focused on Seattle's Evil Empire bundling a free web browser with its OS?

    There actually is a case to be made.

    The purpose of the anti-IE crusade was not to directly limit Microsoft's desktop OS market share. It was to limit how much Microsoft could use that desktop market share to try to take control of the Web. The theory was, if MS used its desktop monopoly to gain a browser monopoly, it could leverage that to get a monopoly on web servers with IIS by coordinating browser-and-server special features. At which point, Microsoft could cripple the ability of any new OS or device from using the web simply by making sure IIS didn't support the new platform's web browsers very well.

    As it happened, Microsoft was able to gain about 95% market share for IE, but that never translated into an above-40% market share for IIS; Apache remained dominant. The question is the counterfactual, in a world where Microsoft had no anti-trust scrutiny focused on IE, could Microsoft have made IIS dominant through feature integration with IE?

  • robc||

    I dont think it would have been much different.

    There ultimate mistake was the same one they made in the 90s. They didnt anticipate the new technology.

    They were slow on the internets and they were slow on smart phones. They recovered from the former, playing catch up with IE, but I think they were too slow on the latter and will now be buried. Oh, they will continue to be a desktop leader and will have some smart phone/tablet share, but they wont be the overall leader. They will be just another player.

  • ant1sthenes||

    If Valve makes Linux a viable or superior alternative for pc gaming, that's one market down. If they piss on the enterprise world by turning themselves into Apple, that's the end of their other big market.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    I still miss my TRS-80 Model 100 portable. That was the best goddamned portable note-taking machine ever invented. I typed out many a city council meeting story with that thing on my lap.
    Now you kids get off my fucking lawn!

  • fried wylie||

    city council meeting story

    Your concept intrigues me and I'd like to subscri.....*snore*

  • Citizen Nothing||

    While you were asleep? City council spent another $2.1 million dollars on underwater robots. Sweet dreams.

  • JW||

    While you were asleep?

    ANSWER THE QUESTION!

  • Citizen Nothing||

    Yes!
    Wait -- I mean no!

  • tarran||

    I used to do that. My parents would take us for weekends to my grandparents' place in VT, and I'd write my papers on my dad's portable Model 100.

    I remember many a Sunday night hooking up the RS-232 cable to our IBM PC, firing up the Hayes Smartmodem program and downloading my papers at 300 Baud before sending them to the Okidata Mu-92 printer.

    Good times.

  • Ted S.||

    In my day, we wrote papers on typewriters.

  • 0073735963||

    I didn't bother to read the comments, I can guess that there will be the inevitable stupid "but phones aren't as fast!!!" argument, which fails, the stupid "who needs anything other than a flip phone" which is moronic, and then of course, the inevitable stupidity surrounding geezers who barely understand the words they're using to describe their tech, but insisting they're experts.

    I doubt you could have picked a worse place to have this conversation except for a nightclub ladies room or something.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    I didn't bother to read this comment.

  • Scotticus Finch||

    "You know, seeing 0073735963 again was nice. We should invite him over more." -- No one, ever.

  • Scotticus Finch||

    "Its". 2011 would like "its" insult back.

  • mad libertarian guy||

    What does it mean that Apple, despite its ability to radically transform digital appliances (iPod, iPhone, iPad) can't really crank up its overall OS market share?

    What does it mean that people still, after all these years, see market share as the end all in computers? Apple is not an OS company, they are a HARDWARE company. And it doesn't matter how their OS market share looks in the mobile space (though it is dominant in tablets ATM), because they still sell more smart phones than any other company in the world.

  • Invisible Finger||

    Samsung passed Apple a few months ago.

  • crazyfingers||

    I'm happy with my $8 tracfone which has lasted like 4 years so far. Good luck spying on me through that big brother.

  • A Mathematician||

    Microsoft will be on most end-user DoD machines. They basically moved to secure boot to lock in that market.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    Jesus. I'm glad I have all you poindexters to make my machines work.

  • Lord Humungus||

    bring back the Commodore!

    seriously, I guess Microsoft wasn't "too big to fail" or in other words, the market works?

  • Invisible Finger||

    My tablet collects dust.

    Email goes to my phone.
    60% of my web surfing is on a PC because I see no point in a tablet with a schlepped keyboard for looking up stuff. Another 2-5% is done on my phone. The rest - audio/video streaming - is done with a smart TV.
    I don't play video games. Most tablet games are boring and the rest can be handled on the phone.
    The few times I use facebook a year is done at the PC - again because of typing.

    I'd consider an ultrabook with a flippable touch screen although I suspect 90% of the use would be as a PC rather than a tablet so I still can't justify the purchase after already wasting the money on a tablet.

    The reason OS sales look down is because of virtualization.

  • fried wylie||

    At the least, can we all agree that virtualization is the most awesome advancement of the past decade?

  • Citizen Nothing||

    Actually, the most awesome advancement of the past decade is pre-cooked and packaged bacon. It's revolutionized breakfast at casa Citizen Nothing.

  • fried wylie||

    I meant in a technical context, but I guess you'd still be right.

  • ||

    Re: Crazy Linux/Android flame war above:

    Yes, but the government built the internet.

  • robc||

    Yes, but the government built the internet.

    If I had wanted to go trolly, I would have said that DMAs define cities. There are exactly 210 in the US and everyone (in the US) lives in one of them.

    It does have the advantage of not being a government definition. Im sure the Seattle people would have loved what that added to their "city".

  • Citizen Nothing||

    What the hell happened to 007's comments? They've all disappeared from my screen. Were they filtered from above?

  • Citizen Nothing||

    And now we all look like REAL morons. Man, that guy was good.

  • JW||

    A crafty one he is, that 10th grader.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    The young DO have the benefit of stamina.

  • robc||

    When White Indian started making personal comments, I realized who it was and filtered and stopped responding.

    Interesting that not all the comments disappeared.

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