What Counts As Rape in the CDC's Survey?

According to survey data released yesterday by the CDC, "nearly 1 in 5 women" in the United States "have been raped at some point in their lives." If that figure seems surprisingly high, it might be partly because the definition of rape used by the National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey includes "alcohol/drug facilitated completed penetration."

The relevant question asked: ""When you were drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent, how many people ever" "had vaginal sex with you," "made you receive anal sex," or "made you perform oral sex." Eight percent of women reported at least one such incident. Some of these cases—e.g., when a man has sex with a woman who is unconscious—clearly do amount to rape, but others are much more ambiguous. People frequently have sex after drinking or consuming other drugs. Does that automatically mean they are "unable to consent," even when they seem willing? Only sometimes? How do you know when? Can the determination be made at the time of the encounter, or only in restrospect? Such a standard would implicate many men in crimes they did not realize they were committing. Furthermore, the way people behave under the influence of alcohol or other drugs is strongly influenced by their expectations. Drugs may impair judgment, but they may also be a license and an excuse. The question about "alcohol/drug facilitated completed penetration" seems like an invitation to shift responsibility for regrettable sexual encounters.

The widely cited "1 in 5" figure (18.3 percent, to be precise) also includes "attempted forced penetration," which was reported by 5.2 percent of women. Since the question for such incidents refers to "physical force or threats of physical harm," these are much more clearly criminal assaults, but still not what most people imagine when they hear that a woman has been raped. Attempted murder and murder are both crimes, but they are not the same crime.

The share of women reporting "forced completed penetration" (meaning sex involving "physical force or threats to physically harm you") was 12.3 percent—still pretty appalling, but one-third lower than the number making headlines. Isn't "more than 1 in 10" bad enough?

The numbers from the CDC survey are far higher than those reported by the Justice Department's National Crime Victimization Survey, which in 2010 found an annual risk of rape or sexual assault of 1.3 per 1,000 females 12 or older, or 0.13 percent. In the CDC study, by contrast, 1 percent of women 18 or older "reported some type of rape victimization in the 12 months prior to taking the survey." That rate is nearly eight times as high—a huge gap, even allowing for the difference in the ages of the respondents. While the CDC survey counts 1.3 million rapes of women in 2010, the total number of rapes and sexual assaults (of males and females combined) in the Justice Department survey was 188,380.

In an NRO post, Robert VerBruggen suggests the Justice Department's survey is more reliable because it has a much bigger sample and a much higher response rate. Another important difference may be the wording of the relevant question:

Has anyone attacked or threatened you in any of these ways (exclude telephone threats)

(a) With any weapon, for instance, a gun or knife

(b) With anything like a baseball bat, frying pan, scissors, or stick

(c) By something thrown, such as a rock or bottle

(d) Include any grabbing, punching, or choking,

(e) Any rape, attempted rape or other type of sexual attack

(f) Any face to face threats

OR

(g) Any attack or threat or use of force by anyoneat all? Please mention it even if you are not certain it was a crime.

Despite that last caveat, the context of the question invites respondents to focus on criminal acts, whereas the CDC survey takes (and invites) a broader view of what counts as rape.

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  • Anonymous||

    People frequently have sex after drinking or consuming other drugs. Does that automatically mean they are "unable to consent," even when they seem willing?

    Yes.

  • Tim||

    THAT'S NOT FUNNY!

  • Colin||

    +1

  • ||

    Oh shit - I was raped repeatedly. I should have reported those women who took advantage of my diminished state.

  • anonymous commenter some guy||

    Better beat them too it! When both parties were drinking it's first come - first served for the lawsuits.

  • ||

    No, only men can rape women when both parties are intoxicated.

    Sigh, shouldn't be too much longer before rape is classified as not requiring *mens rea*. I mean we do that for drug dealing already.

  • jbecan||

    +1

  • ||

    Why don't these studies or radical feminists ever address this point? By their definition (intoxication = lack of consent) a woman can rape a man. Where are those stats?

  • sailor||

    Then I guess I was often raped by women in my younger years while I was drunk. Thank god! Otherwise I never would have gotten laid.

  • sailor||

    Why would anyone want to spoof me? Almost makes me feel special.

  • Pope Benedict XVI||

    I propose defining all sexual intercourse that doesn't result in pregnancy as rape.

  • Old Salt||

    A joke an old girlfriend liked to tell after a few beers:

    Q: "How do you make it not rape?"

    A: "Scream SURPRISE!!!"

  • Yalie!||

    No means yes!

    Yes means anal!

  • Tim||

    THAT'S NOT FUNNY!

  • sailor||

    +1

  • ||

    "made you perform oral sex."

    You mean Roethlisberg'd?

  • Tim||

    THAT'S NOT FUNNY!

  • ||

    "Oh, he's not a boy anymore. He's a man. 'CAUSE HE JUST RAPED ME!"

  • jerry sandusky||

    what? im a manly man's man

  • Tim||

    THAT'S NOT FUNNY!

  • ||

    "All I know is ball...and good...and rape."

  • ||

    Tonight. You...

  • ||

    "See, I think that's what hell is like. You know, constantly raped by dogs."

  • ||

    "See, I think that's what hell is like. You know, threads constantly raped by trolls."

    ftfy.

  • ||

    Well done, sir. Well done.

  • ||

    Gangster 1: You a cry baby?
    Shake: [sobbing] I'm not!
    Gangster 1: Now look man, I'll give you something to cry about!
    Shake: No please, I'm fine!
    Gangster 1: Cry about famine, that's something to cry about! So is war, man!
    [Shake tries to run away]

  • ||

    You care to back that up?

  • Colonel_Angus||

    How does the Center Disease Control justify this mission creep? Is rape a disease now, or are they trying to control disease through rape?

  • STEVE SMITH||

    MISSION CHANGE WHEN STEVE SMITH MADE DIRECTOR.

  • Tim||

    THAT'S NOT FUNNY!

  • Zeb||

    There seems to be a significant group that thinks that any potential physical or psychological risk is somehow a medical problem. That's why doctors ask if you wear your seatbelt or have guns in your house.

    CDC is probably a proper function of government, but it should be concerned only with dangerous communicable diseases, not every risk factor in everyone's life.

  • fact||

    FACT: Guns are violence viruses.

  • Colonel_Angus||

    Or pediatricians addressing the "sexting problem".

  • Doktor Kapitalism||

    That implies that consensual behavior is a problem.

  • ||

    Now you're getting it.

    Obama 2012!

  • Barack Obama's Cock||

    Eat your peas.

    And me.

  • Michelle Obama||

    Trust me, people: the peas are better-tasting.

    Plus, the serving portions are larger.

  • obv||

    Public health concerns trump any limits on governmental authority, always.

    If you want to get something done politically that is beyond the legitimate authority of government, define it as a public health issue.

  • obv||

    (Defining an issue as a threat to the environment or to national security also works.)

  • ||

    They think obesity and violence are communicable (mental) diseases so yeah, they're just laying the groundwork for the rape epidemic.

  • ||

    Has anyone ever subjected you to the Male Gaze? Because that counts too.

  • Tim||

    THAT'S NOT FUNNY!

  • Barely Suppressed Rage||

    A woman (or is that womyn?) just caught me taking a quick glimpse at her chestal region in the company cafeteria today. To quote Rick Perry: "Oops."

  • Doktor Kapitalism||

    Is admiring an individuals physical beauty a crime yet?

  • Dave||

    Yes.

  • Evil Advice||

    Insist that you were admiring the material her top was made of, how the color suits her, the texture looks inviting, etc. If you can put a little swish in your tone, so to speak, so much the better.

  • ||

    Which works great until BSP has to dodge advances from the gay dudes she starts trying to set him up with.

  • T||

    No, look at her dead pan and say you were wondering how long the fabric can hold out when it so obviously stretched past it's design limit.

    But I'm an engineer, and therefore not expected have social skills.

  • Doktor Kapitalism||

    Ask her if it has to do with her master's thesis in materials science.

  • Colin||

    I doubt Sullum has even been taken advantage of while intoxicated, or been intoxicated by someone who was trying to take advantage of him.

    If he had he probably wouldn't have written this tripe.

  • ||

    Tell us what happened to you, Colin. We're here to listen.

  • Tim||

    THAT'S NOT FUNNY!

  • Jerry Sandusky||

    Tell us what happened to you, Colin. We're here to listen.

    Way the little slut was dressed. Hell, he wanted it.

  • Audrey the Liberal||

    I doubt Sullum has even been taken advantage of while intoxicated, or been intoxicated by someone who was trying to take advantage of him.

    SEXIST!

  • Tim||

    THAT'S NOT FUNNY!

  • ||

    1 in 5? Who is doing all of this raping?

    That's absurd.

  • ||

    STEVE SMITH GET AROUND! STEVE BUSINESS IS RAPE, AND BUSINESS IS GOOD!

  • Tim||

    THAT'S NOT FUNNY!

  • STEVE SMITH||

    *COQUETTISH GRIN*

    STEVE SMITH RAPE SQUIRRELS NOW TOO.

  • Tim||

    Kinda funny...

  • Pip||

    Sarah's prettier.

  • STEVE SMITH||

    *COQUETTISH GRIN*

  • STEVE SMITH||

    STEVE SMITH NOT COQUETTISH GRIN. STEVE SMITH YETI. STEVE SMITH ONLY RAPE AND GRIMACE. SOMETIMES RAPE GRIMACE.

  • o3||

    good thang teh [THOUGHT POLICE] aint in on this.

  • Colonel_Angus||

    "more than 1 in 10"

    This actually sounds close to the expectable ratio considering the number of women who choose a certain lifestyle has a similar ratio. Nothing to see here.

  • Dave||

    Actually should be 1 in 8 - 12.3% is effectively 1/8th (actual number 12.5%).

    Still, your point holds: not to excuse rape, but every activity involves risks, and most people know the risks of getting drunk in expectation of having sex with a lot of other people who are also getting drunk and expecting sex.

  • Dave||

    Actually should be 1 in 8 - 12.3% is effectively 1/8th (actual number 12.5%).

    Still, your point holds: not to excuse rape, but every activity involves risks, and most people know the risks of getting drunk in expectation of having sex with a lot of other people who are also getting drunk and expecting sex.

  • Paul||

    Jeebus, yeah, this is so ambiguous, they're essentially saying that if the woman ever has a sexual encounter she regrets, it's rape.

    So that would probably make me a serial rapist.

  • ||

    Some people have a problem distinguishing between offensive sex and sex offense.

  • Dave||

    That's essentially what this is all about. The abuse industry is upset because the rape statistics are clearly showing that sex crimes and the number of victims are down, so they want to redefine rape so they can get more customers.

    That's why people have to differentiate between rape rape and ordinary (non-)rape these days.

  • Dave||

    I might add: occasionally one of these brainiac "feminists" will post a poll somewhere with the question "which of the following are rape?" There there will follow a few examples in which one is clearly rape, another is in a gray area, and the others are clearly NOT rape. The catch is, though, that the "feminist" strongly believes that they are ALL rape, and woe unto any who deny it.

    Of course, a lot of it is just attention-seeking.

  • Bingo||

    Uh oh, looks like rather's about to go into her manic phase again. Batten the hatches and prepare for the deluge of troll personas.

  • ||

    that's like, not funny, or something.

  • Bingo||

    Probably, considering I have neither the time nor the desire to keep up with every trivial thing that happens on this website.

  • Doktor Kapitalism||

    What kind of Reasonoid are you!?!?!?!

    Because we should start a club.

  • sarcasmic||

    You can't rape the willing.

  • Tim||

    THAT'S NOT .... shit I'll stop now.

  • sarcasmic||

    You mean that was funny?

  • Iron Mike||

    If you can't rape the willing, then what do you call me when I fuck them 'til love it?

  • Doktor Kapitalism||

    They have to be willing when you start, I would say. And you must immediately discontinue should they stop being willing.

  • Iron Mike||

    What part of "Im'a fuck you 'til you love it" don't you understand?

  • ||

    So who is the rapist if both the guy and the girl are plastered when they get it on? Does the answer change if he's unable to get it up, and he submits to being pegged by her?

  • Hypnotoad||

    Look into my eyes

  • one eyed trouser trout||

    Look into my eye

  • Montani Semper Liberi||

    1 in 1 women/men/transgenders/farm animals who have been with STEVE SMITH report being victims of rape.

  • CDC||

    We have essentially two categories: rape and rape lite. For the former, you go to the big house, for the later, we're lobbying for funding to erect reeducation camps.

  • CDC||

    Tim?

  • sarcasmic||

  • alan||

    Hey, I hear they added a new member.

  • sarcasmic||

    They can never have enough members.

  • Sparky||

    funding to erect reeducation camps.

    I don't think getting erect was the problem.

  • Audrey the Liberal||

    We have essentially two categories: rape and rape lite. For the former, you go to the big house, for the later, we're lobbying for funding to erect reeducation camps.

    Heh, heh, heh. You said erect.

  • ||

    Has anyone attacked or threatened you in any of these ways (exclude telephone threats)

    ...

    (f) Any face to face threats

    I exchanged face to face threats with a guy that almost ran me over in a grocery store parking lot a couple of months ago.

    In the context of that question, is that classified as sexual assault?

    I flicked off a woman for almost killing me on my bike too--supposed to look over your shoulder before you change lanes, you know?

    I'd have yelled in her face if we'd been at a stop light--if she almost kills me with her irresponsible driving, me getting to yell in her face seems more than fair to me.

    Would I have been guilty of something according to this survey?

  • ||

    We have essentially two categories: rape and rape lite regret.

  • ||

    I thought the categories were: Rape, and Rape-rape.

  • Whoopi Goldberg||

    I know, right? Exactly.

  • Short Viking||

    Do lesbians count?

  • Old Mexican||

    Re: rather,

    yes, whomever is wearing the penis


    A librarian penis?

  • Beloved Rev. Blue Moon||

    Alright, what's up with the librarian thing?

  • Old Salt||

    What happens in the case of a double team dildo?

  • Pip||

    SCISSORS!

  • ||

    I'm gonna have to watch the videotape to make a ruling.

  • Barely Suppressed Rage||

    Excuse me, bunk calling.

  • The Obamas||

    What happens in the case of a double team dildo?

    "PRESENT!!!"

  • ||

    What is the point in attacking this statistic? When a guy writes stuff like this, you're basically inviting (and demonstrating) the pervasive "rape culture" that sociologists and the like are always talking about. If as you say, the stat 1 in 10 is pretty repugnant alone, then why would you bother to quarrel with their further contention that 1 in 5 has been raped including a broader definition? It seems like arguing with something just to argue with something. Or you're a misogynist woman-hater who thinks every woman who says she was raped is a liar. This dichotomy is overly simplistic, but, as someone who really enjoys the way you all look at the issues, this article seems pointless and smacks of noncontroversy or subtle prejudice.

  • ||

    COUNTING IS PATRIARCY

  • ||

    Gave me a legitimate laugh out loud. Thanks :)

  • ||

    A simple look at the comments shows the wonderful discourse you've inspired.

  • ||

    Concern troll is raped.

  • ||

    Rape troll is concerned.

  • ||

    Your post lacked substance. Plus I make more than you.

  • ||

    "posted from the iPhone I shoved up my Super Model Wife's vagina."

  • ||

    I'll retrieve that for him.

  • JoJo Zeke||

    A simple look at the comments shows the wonderful discourse you've inspired.

    Better put some ice on that.

  • ||

    I had to look up two words in order to understand this comment, and I now only barely comprehend it. I have never had an issue with Reason's abortion or circumcision coverage. They seem to be pretty agnostic and rational. This doesn't seem so at all.

  • ||

    ASD?

  • ||

    Thank you for making the $250,000 I spent on my education feel like waste with a couple of sentences :)

  • Doktor Kapitalism||

    We could do that for > 100,000 people if OWS would ever shut up long enough...

  • Tonio||

    Yep, Matthew, Reason is that kind of place. Sorry about the overpriced education, dude.

    Also, Blather may be a regular poster here, but she's universally despised. [flicks nose with thumb, gives little wink]

  • ||

    So now rectal is posting under the name "Matthew" and addressing itself. I am certain that there is a government grant available to study this unusual psychosis.

  • NOW||

    Right on, sister! It's not the weight of the evidence that matters, but the seriousness of the charge!

  • Rather Hypocritical,as always||

    yes, whomever is wearing the penis

    Bingo, are you always the last to know shit?

  • ||

    Because the statistic is obviously wrong. It's not like we all live in hermetically sealed cubes and have no idea what goes on in the world.

    And, as noted in the post, the phrasing of the question seems to have been intended to get the kind of response it did. Politically gaming your "science" is always bad.

  • ||

    I agree, but the way it was presented (or maybe I'm biased because I am a subscriber to the "rape culture" idea) makes it seems like the author is trying to make a subtle point that sexual assault is not a problem or that we should pay less attention to it than we already do. I guess what I'm saying is that I could write an article criticizing the statistics and not sound like a women hater or anti-government loon.

  • ||

    Concern rapist is troll.

  • BakedPenguin||

    I Spit on Your Post

  • ||

    I'm not directing this at anyone or making a sexual orientation slur--just popped in my head when I read that comment: Mr. Fagestyk.

  • ||

    I don't think that's what he intends. It's certainly a problem, but it's also nowhere near the problem this study suggests. I dunno about the rape culture. I'm American, and I've never observed that in my life, though I suppose there could be rape-loving subcultures that I don't interact with.

    And, incidentally, anti-government-lunacy is what we do around here.

  • ||

    Subscribers of the rape culture theory would say that the fact that you don't notice it going on is additional evidence to how subtle yet pervasive it is. If you're interested, it is an interesting idea that I enjoy reading about. A lot of people take it to extremes (extreme feminists mostly) but I feel like most unbiased, rational people recognize that there are subtle things all of us do that perpetuate the "rape culture."

  • ||

    didn't mean to say "all of us," meant to say society or members of society

  • T||

    False consciousness in yet another guise. It's pervasive! So pervasive it makes people rape! But so subtle it takes a trained academician to see it!

    Seriously, once you start looking through the prism of 'rape culture', that's all you're ever gonna see.

  • Tonio||

    ^This, Matthew, this. It's the victim-mongering to which we object. Also, concepts like Male Gaze are anti-liberty.

    Are you familiar with the difference between positive and negative rights?

  • Lord Humungus||

    subtle things - such as ? Or are they soooo subtle that only you recognize them?

  • Dave||

    "Last night I saw upon the stair
    A little man who wasn’t there
    He wasn’t there again today
    Oh, how I wish he’d go away"

  • ||

    I would greatly enjoy a blog post debating whether zombies could consent to sex haha :)

  • Ice Nine||

    As far as sex goes, I'm pretty sure they can give consent and just about anything else - except head.

  • Doktor Kapitalism||

    This raises the question of would anyone but you want a zombie...?

  • ||

    Related question: a zombie woman could not likely have a child, but could a zombie man impregnate a woman? What would be the consequences? :)

  • Tonio||

    Since sperm have low survivability at temps lower than the human body - no. Disease-model (Falci-Romero) zombies are generally described as ectothermic (like reptiles).

  • T||

    She was looking pretty cute for a zombie prostitute...

    I'd find a video, but the YouTubes are blocked at work. Search 'Voltaire Zombie Prostitute'.

  • Zombie Fellatio||

    Can a zombie give consent?

    "Eat me."

  • Zombie Vagina||

    Anybody here know where I can find a good stiff?

  • Zombie Ass||

    "Tear off a piece of me!"

  • Zeb||

    Well, don't forget that around here, being an anti-government loon is generally seen as a good thing.

  • ||

    We rape government.

  • ||

    I'm imaging a variation on the "I *heart* NY" t-shirt design.

    What's the ideogram for rape?

  • Doktor Kapitalism||

  • o3||

    zany loons if u please.

  • enoriverbend||

    Presenting grossly inflated (false) numbers about a problem does not help address the problem. In fact, it can work to undermine whatever good you are attempting to accomplish.

  • Al Gore||

    That's crazy talk.

  • Mensan||

    Kinda like the tobacco "Truth" people when they claim that second-hand smoke kills a bajillion people every day.

  • ||

    I got the idea that the article was simply taking to task the survey's methodology and pointing out how useless the statistical findings were the way the survey was constructed. And then taking heaping scorn on the *CDC* (not actual or even self-perceived victims) for trying to create outrage (and we usually assume by default to increase funding) by showing sexual assault as a lot more common than it is.

    The CDC and a lot of the "rape culture" activists like to do what damn near every other activist does - create the perception that their pet cause is far more common and dangerous thatn it actually is in real life.

    All that does is polarize the debate and prevent any rational plan for dealing with the *actual* problem from every happening.

    See the drug war, climate change, immigration, gun control, and the obesity epidemic for more examples of the exact same crap.

  • Linda ||

    Or you're a misogynist woman-hater who thinks every woman who says she was raped is a liar.

    So, you are finally 'fessing up what you did to me, you creep?

  • ||

    You're right, Matt. Insisting on factual accuracy is just a tool of the male hegemony. Math belongs to The Man!

    "When a guy writes stuff like this, you're basically inviting (and demonstrating) the pervasive "rape culture" that sociologists and the like are always talking about. "

    Well, the culture-of-rape nonsense is also stupid. And, not coincidentally, based on previous rounds of unchallenged bad statistics.

  • AlGore||

    Good Lord, the sensitive guy angle. Some guys will do anything short of making an actual move to get his hands on a woman. I don't know whether to call you lazy, cheap, or just a pussy.

  • ||

    Do you honestly think that is all the article is asking for (factual accuracy)? It seems to me to imply a lot more than that. Like I said though, I could be reading into this a bit because of my personal background/beliefs. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the rape culture thing. I don't think either side is going to persuade the other.

  • ||

    Dude, you ARE reading more into the article than is there. It's pretty damn obvious that Zeb below got the point of the article.

  • AlGore||

    After what happened to my good friend Dominique Strauss-Kahn you rape alarmist with your 'culture of rape' bullshit would be more sensitive to the plight of the falsely accused, but you just charge on with your Stalinist agenda. You are all fucking animals.

  • Barely Suppressed Rage||

    So now you're accusing everyone of bestiality?

  • Doktor Kapitalism||

    "you just charge on with your Stalinist agenda"

    You're one to talk, Al.

  • Zeb||

    Well, the problem I see that should be discussed is not the numbers per se, but the ridiculous over-broad definition of rape used. Rape is terrible (that should go without saying) and I think it is insulting to people who have actually been raped to include "I got drunk and did something stupid" in the same category. It is shocking and disgusting how much real rape there is. It only hurts the cause of those who want to do something about it to pad the numbers like this.

  • ||

    You should have written the article.

  • ||

    Exactly.

  • Barely Suppressed Rage||

    As long as we're not also saying that there are not women who get drunk and then do get raped - i.e., not that they just hooked up while drunk and then decided later they didn't want to.

    There are, sometimes, tough calls.

  • ||

    Maybe because statistics like that make it sound like a good chunk of the male part of the species has no compunction about committing rape? Maybe that's why he is "arguing with something"? Just a thought.

    His point is that there is no need to "trump up" the numbers when 1 in 10 is fucking appalling. That isn't simplistic or misogynistic.

  • ||

    As a male, I often resent that feeling as well. I feel like there are a lot of things in the article that are problematic: the snarky alt text in the picture, the rejection of the entire category of impaired-consent rape, etc. Is there honestly anyone who thinks its okay to sleep with a girl who is falling over drunk and likely blacked out? Apparently the author does: her incapacity is just an excuse for a regrettable sexual encounter.

  • ||

    "Some of these cases—e.g., when a man has sex with a woman who is unconscious—clearly do amount to rape,..."

    The author obviously does not think it's okay to sleep with a girl who is unconscious or blacked out. As for falling over drunk, are you saying if my wife and I go to a Christmas party this weekend and get shit faced that I am raping her if we get it on in the backseat of our Mazda? Obviously there is a point where you should use some common sense and say "I shouldn't put my dick in there" but if you've both been drinking that line of common sense tends to disappear.

  • ||

    I agree, but I think what you're saying is not what the author said, and I just wanted to say this article wasn't up the quality I expect from Reason. Just when I think about donating, they do something like this. Maybe next year.

  • T||

    You shouldn't encourage us to drink, Matthew. That leads to impaired consent.

  • Close Captioned for Newbies||

    See "Reason Drinking Game".

  • Doktor Kapitalism||

    If the woman is asleep, is it rape if she would consent if she were awake?

  • Pip||

    And what if she has role playing fantasies about getting stuffed while she's asleep?

  • Doktor Kapitalism||

    Or, what if she said it would be okay before she went to sleep, and then changes her mind when he takes up the offer?

  • ||

    Also, please explain to the class how we live in a "rape culture". Inquiring minds want to know.

  • Feminism||

    Yes means No. Women only consent because of patriarchical influence. Men are EvullZ!!!1!

  • Krampus Kristen ||

    Yep...totally teh Stockholmz Syndromz!

  • ||

    There are countless articles, books, and blogs about it. Some are pretty extreme so if you can't tolerate crazy feminism, you might not even want to bother. I'll try to find a concise explanation of the idea and post it here.

  • ||

    From Wikipedia:

    According to the rape culture theory, acts of sexism are commonly employed to validate and rationalize normative misogynistic practices. For instance, sexist jokes may be told to foster disrespect for women and an accompanying disregard for their well-being. An example would be a female rape victim being blamed for her being raped because of how she dressed or acted. In rape culture, sexualized violence towards women is regarded as a continuum in a society that regards women's bodies as sexually available by default.[6]
    The root cause of rape culture is generally agreed to be the "domination and objectification of women".[7] However, academic theory holds that rape culture does not necessarily have a single cause, and causes may be localized based on other social aspects of culture.[8] For example, in South Africa the overriding "war culture" which emphasized masculinity and violence led to a culture in which rape was normalized.[7][5] A University of California Davis public document alleged that the enforcement of the following of social rules by women and the conditioning of gender roles were major causes.[9] In a study of date rape, gender-based miscommunications were held to be a major factor supporting a campus rape culture.[10] The general unwillingness of police and district attorneys to prosecute rapes where force was not involved or where the victim had some sort of relationship with the aggressor is also cited as a motivation for date rape and campus rape.[8] Rape culture is also closely related to slut-shaming and victim blaming, where rape victims are considered at fault for being raped, and it is argued that this connection is due to the presence of a culture that shames all female sexuality.[8] That some rapes are not reported to the police due to fear that they would not be believed is often cited as a symptom of a rape culture,[11][8] that they thought the police would not believe them is cited as a reason by 6% of women who did not report rape.[12]
    Although its use as a theory to explain the occurrence of rape and domestic violence was focused on the rape of women, rape culture has been described as detrimental to men as well as women.

    Some writers and speakers, such as Jackson Katz, Michael Kimmel, and Don McPherson, have said that it is intrinsically linked to gender roles that limit male self-expression and cause psychological harm to men.[13]

  • Doktor Kapitalism||

    Rape culture is a hypothesis, not a theory. Also, sociology is not a science.

  • ||

    Who am I to question the word of a doctor? :)

  • Doktor Kapitalism||

    "Thinking is man’s only basic virtue, from which all the others proceed. And his basic vice, the source of all his evils, is that nameless act which all of you practice, but struggle never to admit: the act of blanking out, the willful suspension of one’s consciousness, the refusal to think-not blindness, but the refusal to see; not ignorance, but the refusal to know. It is the act of unfocusing your mind and inducing an inner fog to escape the responsibility of judgment-on the unstated premise that a thing will not exist if only you refuse to identify it, that A will not be A so long as you do not pronounce the verdict ‘It is.’ Non-thinking is an act of annihilation, a wish to negate existence, an attempt to wipe out reality. But existence exists; reality is not to be wiped out, it will merely wipe out the wiper. By refusing to say ‘It is,’ you are refusing to say ‘I am.’ By suspending your judgment, you are negating your person. When a man declares: ‘Who am I to know?’-he is declaring: ‘Who am I to live?’"

  • ||

    Not sure if serious, but I certainly wasn't being serious

  • Doktor Kapitalism||

    I didn't really care.

  • ||

    Thanks for dredging that up, sorry I was too lazy to look.

    That being said, I think it is a pretty big leap to go from telling sexist jokes to fostering a rape culture. And I suppose strip clubs and nudie magazines feed into this supposed culture?

  • ||

    I don't work in this field, it is only an interest of mine, but I think the idea is that all these little tiny things have an almost negligible effect alone, but when considered in concert, their effect is overwhelming. I'm not sure how strip clubs and stuff fit into things because I think there is a split whether strip clubs are really empowering women who use their sexuality for $$ or whether they are exploiting women.

    btw I really enjoy this discussion with everyone. It isn't often you actually get an intelligent discussion on the Internet. I don't want you all to think I don't appreciate your point of view. I, like you, am here to learn.

  • T||

    I, like you, am here to learn.

    Sucker. We're here to quibble and mock.

  • Pip||

    "I don't work in this field, it is only an interest of mine, but I think the idea is that all these little tiny things have an almost negligible effect alone, but when considered in concert, their effect is overwhelming."

    The Broken Hymen Theory.

  • Barely Suppressed Rage||

    Are you saying the hymen is a like a little window to the soul?

  • Pip||

    How perceptive.

  • Dave||

    "rapes where force was not involved"

    ???

  • Audrey the Liberal||

    I always assumed rape culture was some sort of bacteria. Am I wrong?

  • ||

    "If as you say, the stat 1 in 10 is pretty repugnant alone, then why would you bother to quarrel with their further contention that 1 in 5 has been raped including a broader definition?"

    Two words: Mission Creep.

    I remember back in school listening to teachers, etc. talking about how as guys we shouldn't pressure girls into having sex, and there's a definite line that needs to be drawn somewhere between force and normal human behavior.

    I used to think back then: What are you gonna work on after you get young guys to stop pressuring girls for sex? Make the birds stop flying south for the winter?!

    That's like basic evolution, isn't it? Guys pressuring girls to have sex--isn't that a biological imperative?

    There's a line to be drawn. You don't force anybody. You don't threaten anybody. We're good with that!

    You move the line much farther beyond those rules, and you start circumscribing some pretty basic free behavior that shouldn't be circumscribed.

    The same sort of mission creep has happened with other sexual misconduct charges. For instance, where laws against child pron have ended up ensnaring kids for sexting each other--and branding them as sexual criminals? That wasn't what the law was intended for! That's mission creep.

    Just becasue I support laws against child pron, doesn't mean I have to support mission creep that ends up victimizing children when it was supposed to protect them.

    And just because I question mission creep in terms of the way they're measuring sexual assault, doesn't mean I'm not just as much against sexual assault as the next guy either.

    That's why to resist mission creep.

  • Doktor Kapitalism||

    According to Stossel's second book, boys get more peer pressure than girls. 33% to 23%, respectively.

    Ask him where he got the data, though.

  • ||

    I agree with everything you said, I just don't think the author did a very good job conveying that point.

  • Pip||

    Ther are EXPERTS who actually know about such things, so untill you have read as much as they have, you have NO RIGHT to formulate a well considered opinion.

    EXPERTS!!!11!111111!

  • Sparky||

    I'm afraid everyone has missed the real big deal about this article. Sullum used alt-text...

  • Paul||

    Good catch. He raped the pic with alt-text.

  • Krampus Kristen ||

    Yeah, yeah - that's like "participation trophies". Did you read the alt text? He's better off just not doing it ever again.

  • AlGore||

    Check out my, 'I participated in a pool table gang bang and all I got was the clap' T-shirt. classy, eh?

  • Sparky||

    Everyone has to start somewhere.

  • Cliché Bandit||

    HOLY CRAP!
    My donation counted. Also, we need to archive this post, like the one where VM is still bragging about his damn lake or the one with the allegedly assulted ovines, for posterity.

  • Auric Demonocles||

    I saw there was alt-text so I didn't bother to check to see if it was Sullum...

  • ||

    I think I am going to drop this right here.

  • Paul||

    Which one is the chick in that picture?

  • ||

    Good call. There is no justification for that dude's ( I use the term loosely) hair.

  • ||

    He's not completely useless. I bet his meat is as tender and delicious as a veal's.

  • ||

    That's quite STEVE SMITH of you in this context.

  • Zeb||

    And that's presumably how he dressed for the prom, or whatever event they have been to.

  • Krampus Kristen ||

    I'd do the one on the right, but I wouldn't touch the one on the left with a ten-foot pole.

    In other words, no idea.

  • Doktor Kapitalism||

    I'd say the one in the dress, but they could very easily be transvestites.

  • ||

    When I saw the pic, I thought "Well, I guess its super-progressive to show two lesbians in an article about rape, but couldn't they have at least two good-looking lesbians?"

  • Sal Paradise||

    Nice smear piece on the CDC, Sullum. We all know you're in the pocket of Big Rape.

  • Sleeping Dog||

    Whats Japan have to do with this?

  • Paul||

    Wouldn't Japan be Little Rape?

  • wHOOpIE||

    Well, Japan rape isn't rape-rape, you know?

  • ||

    I don't know, with all those tentalcles they seem a lot more rapey than normal.

  • ||

    Yesterday, the front page of the local paper had a story about how the census bureau says half of all Americans are poor.

    Maybe they're just too broke to buy a girl a nice dinner.

  • sarcasmic||

    The definition of poverty has been changed from a concrete number to a percentile.

    This way as everyone's standard of living increases (including the poor) there will always be people labeled as living in poverty.

    Doesn't matter if they have a flat panel tv with cable, a computer with internet, a cell phone and a fridge full of food, they're still living in abject poverty.

  • Zeb||

    So they changed it to the 50th percentile?

  • sarcasmic||

  • Zeb||

    Awesome. So if my very fast reading is correct, at least one third of the population will forever be considered poor.

  • sarcasmic||

    Yep. We live in a country that allows 33% of the people to live in poverty. How terrible is that?

  • Paul||

    I saw this yesterday and realized that it's over.

  • ||

    Sounds like these questionaires were written by Swarthmore graduates

  • ||

    What is the point in attacking this statistic?

    Just lie back and relax, right? You might as well enjoy it.

  • The Other Kevin||

    This was the top story in the nightly news the other day. I thought that 1 in 5 figure sounded high. My first reaction is to expect the word "epidemic" to come up soon, and of course the crazy measures that follow.

  • ||

    "alcohol/drug facilitated completed penetration."

    Is there any other kind?

  • ||

    Not that I know of.

  • ||

    "alcohol/drug facilitated completed penetration."

    Is there any other kind?

    Hmmm, in 14 years of marriage and 2 kids I would guess that I have never had not-rape with my wife since our marriage, nor the two years of cohabitation before it.

    I am going to tell her tonight when she gets home how nasty she is for letting me rape her all of those times and how nasty she is for raping me almost every single time.

  • ||

    Should have added that afterward I intend to make her a couple of drinks, I have already started (of course), and we will rape each other.

  • ||

    I guess what I'm saying is that I could write an article criticizing the statistics and not sound like a women hater or anti-government loon.

    Jezebel eagerly awaits.

  • ||

    I'd like to know how people interpret the term "threat" in this context. Literally the only threat that would result in me getting raped is a gun pointed at me or a family member. Anything less and I'm doing everything in my power to get away. Now, a (maybe empty) threat with a less immediately deadly weapon is, as Jacob noted, obviously still a crime, but it ain't rape.

  • RoboCain||

    "We should break up if you don't want to have sex."

  • ||

    Right. That made me laugh, but honestly people are stupid enough to interpret that as a "threat." Think about the idiotic and wrong definitions people use when they talk about politics or the economy. Surely they're no smarter when it comes to surveys.

  • RoboCain||

    Feminists do count that as a threat.

    Sorry I don't have any links handy, but talking someone into sex is now considered "coercion" by many colleges, resulting in expulsion.

  • ||

    I prefer "I'll have sex with somebody else".

  • RoboCain||

    XOMG RAPIST!!

  • ||

    "If you really loved me you would do it" counts as a threat to most feminists.

  • Paul||

    "If you really loved me you would do it"

    But don't women say the exact same thing to men when they want the $5000 diamond tennis bracelet?

  • Doktor Kapitalism||

    THAt"S DIFFFerERNt!!!@@@211!1!111111!!111!!!@!111

  • anonymous commenter some guy||

    I like how we're determining the prevalence of a crime by surveying potential victims. No one ever lies in a survey!

  • ||

    no one ever fails to report crimes either

  • Zeb||

    Hence the survey. No way 10% of women have officially reported being raped.

  • RoboCain||

    So you want to measure dishonest behavior based on their word?

  • ||

    It only hurts the cause of those who want to do something about it to pad the numbers like this.

    At least we don't have to worry about them using those inflated numbers as an excuse to ask for a bigger budget and more power.

  • Old Mexican||

    According to survey data released yesterday by the CDC, "nearly 1 in 5 women" in the United States "have been raped at some point in their lives."


    Oh, that's a relief! That's down from what NOW was saying back in the 90s that it was 1 in 4.

  • ||

    Well that one in four figure wasn't rape rape.

  • ||

    Jezebel and the like are up to 1 in 3 the last time I saw anything.

  • ||

    That's what I was thinking too. Back then it was like it was so clearly not true that everyone but the most rabid feminists dismissed it out of hand. Now it seems like the whole culture has ramped up concern trolling.

  • ||

    Who Stole Feminism by Christina Hoff Sumners. The ultimate 1990s sorority slam book on feminism. You should read it sometime. It is great.

    http://www.amazon.com/Who-Stol.....0684801566

  • Paul||

    Dagny, we have major news outlets trumpeting the fad of kids "smoking" smarties. Concern trolling is a multi billion dollar industry.

  • Auric Demonocles||

    At my freshmen orientation in college they claimed that 1 in 2 girls would be raped during college.

  • Zeb||

    And then proceeded to explain how if she has had any alcohol, then it is rape. Under that definition, it was probably true.

  • Doktor Kapitalism||

    Where did you go to college???

  • Auric Demonocles||

    That was at UVM.

  • Lord Humungus||

    back in my college days, according to the feminists I knew, rape practically equaled MURDER!

  • Zeb||

    Yeah, I've never really gotten that. Rape is terrible, but you are still alive. I haven't run into a lot of people who have been raped who wish they had been killed instead.

  • ||

    Two words..... STEVE. SMITH.

  • STEVE SMITH||

    NOT MY FAULT GIANT BARBED YETI PENIS CAUSES MASSIVE INTERNAL DAMAGE.

  • NOW||

    Clinton Kool-Aid, get it right here! Plenty left!

  • o3||

    the cain kool-aid is moar hip n shit...punk

  • NOW||

    If you don't show us proper deference than you are not being fair, pig!

  • ...and there are statistics.||

    Isn't "more than 1 in 10" bad enough?


    Not for us!!!!

  • ||

    Is there honestly anyone who thinks its okay to sleep with a girl who is falling over drunk and likely blacked out?

    Why do you hate fear women, Matthew? Why do you want to impose your patriarchal values on them and force them to pretend they are delicate, helpless flowers too dainty and feeble-minded to be allowed to act on their own initiative (without your condescension and moral guidance) and live with the consequences?

    Who's the real oppresssor here, you monster?

  • now, now||

    It's just a dick move to get into some chick's pants, are part of the academic social climbing he is using to get in pants of many chicks.

  • ||

    My friend if you think impressing women with a wealth of pointless knowledge is the way to get them to sleep with you, you're doing it wrong.

    To P: The same standards apply to both sexes. Girls shouldn't sleep with guys who are blacked out/falling over, and they should be prosecuted for rape if they do so. Seems like a troll though.

    Ok thanks to everyone for the discussion, I actually have work on my desk now though :(

  • Zeb||

    The problem with that standard is that a lot of people, men and women, go out with the intention of getting wasted and fucking a stranger. Not the smartest thing to do, but people should be able to do so without being considered rapists. If you make stupid decisions that you regret when you get drunk, don't drink. There's your solution. You can't expect everyone to babysit you just because you can't handle yourself.

  • Screechy Feminist||

    "Girls," Matthew, really?

  • RoboCain||

    Putting aside that the definitions and methods used are bullshit -- which is significant -- I don't buy either number simply because they are surveys.

    Surveys are nothing more than hearsay. And surveys about sex are notoriously unreliable. For example, when asked when they lost their virginity or how many partners they had, the responses between between men and women are completely incongruent.

  • ||

    Meanwhile, back at the Hall of Feministing... cupcakes.

  • ||

    Since when did cupcakes become the purview of semi attractive borderline lesbian chicks? They seem to dominate the crews of cupcake shops.

  • Auric Demonocles||

    One of the girls who lives in the apartment below me is a lesbian. She works at the cupcake shop down the street.

  • ||

    They also like Paper Sources. My wife and I have a saying "Paper Source Girl". It is used to describe any non butch, semi cute, hipster lesbian looking chick.

  • ||

    Paper Source always baffled me. Who needs that much paper? But I like your code. I instantly pictured the Paper Source Girl.

  • ||

    People like my wife who make their own Christmas cards and send thank you notes for everything. My wife loves high end paper products. The Paper Source is her favorite store. It is small cult but a dedicated one.

  • ||

    For the business model to work, the cult following must be either bigger or more frequent shoppers than I, as a highly un-crafty person, would estimate.

  • ||

    The paper is super High Tech. When the recipients immediately trash the craftwork, it crawls out of the receptacle when no one is looking, reforms to its original countenance like a T1000, and runs back to the store.

  • Auric Demonocles||

    Paper Sources?

  • ||

    It is a store that sells high end stationary. And to be specific, a paper source girl is a girl under 30, hip looking, gives off a lesbian vibe, but is just cute enough to warrant a good sick fantasy without being gorgeous.

  • ||

    [Googles "Paper Source locations". Is disappoint. Kicks puppy.]

  • Mrs. Dean||

    [Googles "shoot husband in back and ...wtf...googles jury of 12 woman"]

  • ||

    Go to a high end cupcake store RC. Same type of girls work there.

  • Auric Demonocles||

    Seriously, how do they manage to stay in business charging $3 a cupcake?

  • P.T. Barnum||

    Heh, heh, heh.

  • Paul||

    The cupcake shop in my neighborhood, Cupcake Royale is mostly peopled by lesbians.

    They have a "legalize gay cupcakes" promotion.

  • ||

    But they are usually cute lesbians. The butches don't seem to go for it.

  • P.T. Barnum||

    They work as motorcycle mechanics.

  • ||

    http://althouse.blogspot.com/2.....t-for.html

    Ann Althouse takes on whinny feminist blogger and hilarity ensues.

  • ||

    If you are looking for a safe space, the blogosphere is not that, and it is particularly not that if you are a feminist academic.

    Are you kidding? The virtual world is the ultimate safe space!

  • T||

    It's not like I ever got punched in the mouth for being a dick on the internet. IRL, on the other hand...

  • ||

    But in the virtual world you can't publish whatever shite you want, add some made up numbers, and call it academic work without a million dudes jumping in to call bullshit on your bullshit.

    Its very bad for your self-esteem.

    That's why its safer just to get together IRL with those who share the same ideology as you - none of them asks hard questions about the premises underpinning your philosophy.

  • Audrey the Liberal||

    One gets the sense that some women go on the internet expecting it to be their own personal validation machine, and then flip out when they find that isn't the case.

  • Zeb||

    I fucking hate cupcakes. How did that become trendy?

  • ||

    One in five is NOW's definition of rape.

  • ||

    What about five in one?

  • Barely Suppressed Rage||

    Very easy to find on the Internet. Just turn off "safe search" in Google.

    Or so I've heard.

  • RoboCain||

    "The CDC interviewed fewer than 20,000 people and had a response rate of around 30 percent."

    Oh, for fucks sake.

  • Alan Vanneman||

    The CDC study is at least as phony as Jake says it is (compare the NYT "story" that just regurgitated the CDC press release), but the "Sluts R Us" photo isn't a good match. Perhaps Reason needs a Libertarian Babe O' the Day page.

  • ||

    Reason needs a Libertarian Babe O' the Day page.

    Motion seconded!

  • ||

    Does poking someone on facebook count as rape if they haven't consented?

  • ||

    If the woman is asleep, is it rape if she would consent if she were awake?

    Ahhh, the good old days. Hard as it may be for people like Matthew to believe, this goes both ways. And not once did I leap out of the bed in shrieking terror.

  • RoboCain||

    If someone started to give Matthew oral sex while he was asleep, I'm sure he would want that person to go to prison.

  • ||

    Where did I ever say that it wouldn't go both ways? It definitely should. As a male who has been sexually assaulted, you fucking better believe I think it goes both ways.

  • ||

    Whaaaa?!! A woman who goes down on me while I am shitfaced asleep (assuming she wakes me up) doesn't deserve a rape charge, she deserves a fucking medal!

    Matthew, there is nothing wrong with being gay. Just embrace it, there is no reason to pretend you understand the heterosexual male. Sorry, I don't mean to "out" you or anything. (as if your admittance of belief and fascination with "rape culture" didn't.)

  • RoboCain||

    "Underneath Radfem’s veneer of social consciousness, however, and hosted on the same website, is a private forum; the underbelly and engine room for the site as a whole. The discussions there, assumed to be out of the public eye, are virulent and hateful; often peppered with calls for violence. For a long time, they have been successful and maintaining both secrecy and anonymity. Until now.

    Over the past several months an operative ,who will only be identified as Agent Orange, has successfully infiltrated the group and has collected trove of information, including over a hundred screen shots that document what can only be called the most shocking evidence of extreme hatred in the feminist movement seen to date."

    http://www.avoiceformen.com/fe.....-movement/

  • ||

    Wow. The one suggesting a chemical to destroy Y-chromosome sperm is both terrifying and idiotic. The species can't survive without both men and women, dolt!

  • Pip||

    Not true. They can now take the genetic material from two women and unite it in a single egg.

  • Dave||

    When the artificial uterus is finally perfected, men will finally be able to free themselves of women - and women may discover that it is useful to have men around, once we have left them behind and gone off with our mechanical replacements.

  • Audrey the Liberal||

    Truly the only response to wacky, paranoid feminism is...wacky, paranoid, anti-feminism? I am lost.

  • ?CDC||

    1 in 20 is BS. 1 in 10 is BS. If you have ever tried to force yourself on woman you would know it is not easy.

    In college I had a girlfriend who wanted me to try and take her by force. Being a strapping young man I thought it would be easy. It was impossible. For one thing your dick isn't made of steel and all she had to do was keep moving her hips. I could have forced her if I had been willing to raise my level of force enough to leave marks on her but I was not. It was kind of humiliating because she was laughing through the whole thing. And this was starting from the advantage of both of us being naked.

    Simply put if a women is not bruised she did not resist unless she was incapacitated. Rape is a horrible crime but fortunately very rare.

  • ||

    Leaving aside, of course, the use of a knife or gun to enforce compliance.

  • Zeb||

    Even without those, fear from the threat of force goes a long way.

  • ||

    I never even thought about it liek that before. It makes snse dude.

    www.RealPrivacy.tk

  • ||

    Not only that, but men cannot be raped unless raped by men. If you actually look at the study, they have a "made to penetrate" category... If we throw that in, we have 1 in 20 men getting "raped" (emphasis on the definition of rape used in this study, and intoxication made up insignificant amount), and if we throw out attempted rape (which is defined as anything as bad or worse than harassment that is suspected to be sexual in nature) along with some of the intoxicate rates, women are "raped" about 1 in 15...

    I wish I could stop there as far as flaws, but the lifetime rape rate of women is 5 times higher than men when compared to their respective 12 month rate. If that doesn't spell out significant confirmation bias, I don't know what does. We may very well have equal rates of rape for men and women, but regardless, the rates are nevertheless similar enough to put the 99% of rapists are men and 1% of rape victims are men into serious disrepute.

    Then the facts that they only used female interviewers, the subjectivity of recalling events, how people interpret the question, how the interview is conducted, and how people want to conform with apparent realities... The reliability of these studies are shit.

    The best part? The 1 in 5 figure is derived from a percentage that is closer to 1 in 6. That's how desperate they are to confirm previous studies which held figures closer to 1 in 4.

  • ||

    Femputer finds your lack of faith disturbing.

  • cynical||

    So, let's put out a survey asking men how many times they've had sex while intoxicated. Or is the CDC trying to cover up the culture of man-rape in our country?

  • ||

    Hypocrisy. It should be teh painful.

    Stupid c*nts who incapacitate themselves with drugs or booze to the point where they can no longer control or protect their bodies are the same ones who are out the next day waving their protest signs and screaming, "Stop trying to control my body!!!" at the anti-abortion lobby.

    Do you want to be in control of your own body? Then control it, you stupid, whiny whores. Don't lose control of your body and then go around blaming others or fishing for sympathy for your stupid choices.

  • Barely Suppressed Rage||

    Oh, I see. So a woman who has too much to drink is just asking for it anyhow and has no reason to complain about being sexually assaulted when she was defensless.

    Because if a woman is passed out drunk, a guy can't be expected to respect her personal integrity and not rip her clothes off and have sex with her. If he succumbs to the obvious temptation of a woman who is unable to defend herself, oh well, it was her own fault for passing out drunk with a guy present, because after all, she should have known that the guy would rape her as soon as she passed out.

    Got it, thanks.

    Asshole.

  • Zeb||

    Being a charitable sort of person, I interpreted the comment to refer more to claims that one can't really consent if intoxicated. You are responsible for your choice to drink and drive, you should also be responsible for your decision to drink and fuck. I don't think that a guy should be expected to turn down the advances of a girl just because she has had a few.

  • Old Salt||

    Forget about drinking and driving.

    I'm more worried about drinking and parking!

    Remember, accidents cause people.

  • ||

    You're right...how about we all just pretend that women have no idea what the potential consequences are of getting so completely wasted that they have no control over their own bodies? Let's just pretend women are toddlers who are incapable of protecting themselves and controlling their own actions.

    They can't have it both ways. Either they own their bodies and they're responsible for being vigilant of their surroundings, and not getting completely wasted in mixed or unsafe company.

    Or they're not responsible for their bodies, and all the men around them are responsible for protecting them from their own caprice and stupidity.

    I don't like where Option 2 leads, myself. So I'll take Option 1, where women are trusted to control what happens to their bodies because they're expected to be smart enough to do so, and women who do stupid, dangerous shit like get completely wasted in unknown surroundings accept that bad things can happen to people who do stupid shit.

  • ||

    BSG, she isn't saying that it is OK to rape a woman who is passed out. She is saying that a woman who gets shit faced and goes home with someone and blacks out shouldn't be able to hold a man liable later because he didn't realize that she was in that state.

    How do I know when a woman is so drunk that she can't consent? Do I have to give her a breathalyzer and her be within some range?

  • ||

    How dare you feed into our all too prevalent RAPE CULTURE!!!!

  • ||

    My question is why is the "center for disease control" doing surveys on rape or any other crime? Is crime now a disease?

  • ||

    We have too many people working for the government and not enough for them to do.

  • Coeus||

    I actually read the damn thing. They include penetration (including fingers). That means any time you're making out, the clothes come off and you start reaching into the panties....If she stops you there because she doesn't want to go any further, it's considered a rape. Even if you keep making out afterwards.

  • ||

  • Audrey the Liberal||

    Encyclopedia Dramatica almost makes me believe in god.

  • ||

    I actually read the damn thing. They include penetration (including fingers). That means any time you're making out, the clothes come off and you start reaching into the panties....If she stops you there because she doesn't want to go any further, it's considered a rape. Even if you keep making out afterwards.

    You've gotta be shitting me. By that standard, I've raped my wife like ten thousand times.

  • ||

    I actually read the damn thing. They include penetration (including fingers). That means any time you're making out, the clothes come off and you start reaching into the panties....If she stops you there because she doesn't want to go any further, it's considered a rape. Even if you keep making out afterwards.

    You've gotta be shitting me. By that standard, I've raped my wife like ten thousand times.

  • ||

    I actually read the damn thing. They include penetration (including fingers). That means any time you're making out, the clothes come off and you start reaching into the panties....If she stops you there because she doesn't want to go any further, it's considered a rape. Even if you keep making out afterwards.

    You've gotta be shitting me. By that standard, I've raped my wife like ten thousand times.

  • ||

    GIVE ME THE ABILITY TO DELETE MY OWN POSTS, GODDAMMIT.

  • ||

    The retrospect approach might implicate more than men in crimes. If a man is drunk and a woman is not, and they have sex, has she raped him by that standard? If both are drunk, have they raped eachother? If a man is unusually passive while drunk and a woman gets aggressive while drunk, does sex amount to her raping him?

  • Dave||

    No, the man is always the rapist, even if the woman incapacitates him with alcohol or other drugs, ties him down, and forces a foreign object into his anus. The woman is always the victim.

    However, boys are not rapists even if they force themselves on a woman, because anyone under the age of 18 is asexual and cannot conceive of, much less consent to or willingly participate in, a sexual act - a fact which has been approved by the courts in two separate cases in liberal Madison, Wisconsin.

  • ||

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