Gaddafi Snuff Footage

See the last moments of Libyan Colonel Muammar Gaddafi: 

If you’re stumped by whether the rebels are hustling a dazed former potentate around after capturing him or just frogmarching his body through some Weekend At Bernie’s camerahogging, you’ll be interested to learn that the U.K. Telegraph claims Gaddafi died of wounds sustained during his capture.

It seems to me that Gaddafi is already captured here, and that some of the shots heard after the camera leaves Gaddafi are not just celebration shots. I’ve been watching TV all my life, so I’m an expert. 

You kids won't believe this, but there was a time when the world was transfixed by footage showing the killing of Nicolae Ceauşescu, natalist dictator of tiny Rumania, along with his wife Elena. That’s how rare it was to see a leader ripped apart by his political opponents during the George H.W. Bush administration. 

After the footage of Saddam Hussein's execution, dictator-death footage has lost some of its novelty. It’s also, for me at any rate, lost some of its bearableness. While I've never been a fan of any kind of snuff, at least with dictators you used to be able to kid yourself that the death would be followed by freedom or progress or some other fairy tale. 

I wish the Libyans the very best for their country, but this occasion is even less promising than your usual brutal killing of a brutal killer.

Right next door, the Egyptians overthrew their dictator only to replace him with a murderous goon state where the army ethnically cleanses Christians and connives when a mob attacks Jews and drives them into exile. (Where else but in the Washington Post can you hear incidents wherein armed secuity forces kill 23 unarmed people and wound 200 described as "clashes"?) And Egypt is Switzerland compared to Libya. At least Mubarak is getting a semi-civilized trial. 

Dictator snuff just isn’t as full of hope and change as it used to be. 

Video courtesy of Iyad El-Baghdadi, who notes that some of the people in Libya were shouting “Bashar, you’re next.” 

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  • Hugh Akston||

    Looks like Obama can carve another notch on his Nobel Peace Prize.

  • Mike M.||

    Still gotta love how Obama's only successes he can plausibly claim to have achieved so far are in foreign policy in areas where he has followed the Bush Doctrine virtually to a T.

  • teh rael o2||

    please describe the bush doctrine

  • peachy||

    "Bomb any brown people who look at you funny." Which, to be fair, was pretty much the Clinton Doctrine (though he was open-handed enough to bomb white people too when the mood struck.)

  • Mike M.||

    Please describe the Bush doctrine.

    The two fundamental core tenets of the Bush Doctrine that he formulated after 9/11 are as follows:

    1) Nations with governments that knowingly harbor terrorists and terrorist groups on their soil and refuse to turn over those terrorists may be treated by the United States as belligerent nations that are in cahoots with those terrorists, and attacked with force.

    2) Dictators, and particularly dictators in the Middle East, are a threat to world peace and stability, and should be removed from power by any means necessary, including the use of force.

    Now, go ahead and try to seriously claim with a straight face that Obama hasn't continued right on almost to a T with those same guiding Bush precepts.

  • There is no "we"||

    It's not really a Bush-era war until you have U.S. infantry on the ground getting shot in the back by illiterate tribal chieftans who they just tried to co-opt with a few bags of rice. Also, we'd need a secret airbase prison run by the CIA where hapless taxi drivers get frozen to death while hanging from their elbows.

    Nah, Obama just ain't at that level.

  • When...||

    ...did somebody get frozen to death? Honest question.

  • Britt||

    This new meme where war is only war when Americans start dying is one of the dumbest things the left has ever busted out, and there's a long long list of things that compete with that.

    I mean it's like saying that a ball game that ends 2-0 didn't actually happen because one team never scored.

  • ||

    "This new meme where war is only war when Americans start dying is one of the dumbest things the left has ever busted out"

    Fighting in a war without committing American ground troops is something I learned about from the right.

    We won much of the Cold War that way.

    Fighting in a war without committing ground troops is way better than fighting in a war with committing ground troops.

    For all sorts of reasons.

  • Britt||

    I'm not saying it's not a better way to go to war. One of the dumber things the US ever did was abandon gunboat diplomacy and limited deployment of Marines in favor of massive expensive "you break it you buy it" occupations with the foolish goal of dragging a barbaric culture kicking and screaming into modernity.

    It's just funny watching the kumbaya crowd get thirsty for blood now that it can boost their guy's poll numbers.

  • ||

    I'm with you on that.

    It kinda bugs me too that the left sees spreading democracy through the force of arms as a right wing thing too.

    It's actually a very liberal foreign policy. Liberals don't really mind using the state and the police to inflict their ideas on the rest of us here at home, and they don't really mind using the military to inflict their ideas on the rest of the world either.

    They just don't like it when it's somebody from the right using the military to spread democracy. When Obama continues the same policies, well there's no problem with that!

    For a lot of them, it's not about what's being done; it's about who's doing it.

  • This Dave||

    @No We-

    I've got to say, the biggest surprise I've ever gotten from the left is their reaction to the "secret prisons" you describe, now that Obama is in charge. I mean, who would have thought that what they were really saying was "No, don't do that...just blow them up!"?
    Sure as hell came as a shock to me, but I'm not as sophisticated and nuanced as a Progressive, I guess.

  • ||

    BUT IT"'S OK WHEN WE DO ITTTTTTTTTTTTTT!

  • White Garamante||

    Officer, am I free to gambol about the north african desert?

  • ||

    NATO scores a rare victory. Libertarians complain.

    Nothing else happens.

    http://reason.com/blog/2011/10.....e#comments

  • The Art-P.O.G.||

    I'm still laughing at "White Garamante". That is superb.

  • rather||

  • Destrudo||

    Come on. If you're going to troll us and shamelessly blogwhore you need to at least offer some content. You just threw up some unrelated image you got from google and gave it a title. You can't even blogwhore properly.

  • ||

    DON'T CLICK ON IT'S LINKS!

  • Destrudo||

    I can't help it sometimes. My curiosity gets the better of me. She's like Forest Gump crossed with Girl Interrupted. Too weird to not look.

  • ||

    More like I Am Sam crossed with Free Willy.

    Oh wait, were you talking about her blog?

  • ||

    I like this description better.

  • Paul||

    No disrepsect to Epi, but I liked Destrudo's better. I'm not sure what he has against Forrest Gump, though.

  • rather||

    Hmm, one of these days you little boys will learn to read what is not there -if only you had a brain

  • Warty||

    That's much too respectful a tone. Either ignore the dipshit, insult it viciously, or mock it, please.

  • rather||

    sorry , my little whore but I just numbered my incif with shithead#1 and so on, and I have no clue which you are but feel free to die of prostrate cancer

  • goober1223||

    You can get cancer just lying down? Looks like I'm sleeping like the coneheads tonight.

  • The Art-P.O.G.||

    No, I think the cancer itself is lying down.

  • rts||

    What's Arabic for "Stop resisting"?

  • Beloved Commenter Tim||

    Allahu Akbar.

    Such pious men.

  • hazeeran||

    "Lan astaslam" means "I will never surrender", for what it's worth.

  • teh rael o2||

    what's arabic for "shoot his dog too!"

  • مقرعة ||

    the dog

  • יכול לכתב ערבת||

    I thought the squirrels only accepted Latin characters.

  • rather||

    Neither can I ;-)

  • ||

    Dammit, can't anyone hold a camera steady?

  • Rich||

    This.

    "If you quit firing your AK-47 into the air for a while and hold the camera with both hands, you might have some historic footage!" /sarc

  • Syd Henderson||

    Like bullets falling from the air and hitting people.

  • ||

    No shit! I could record history - or act like a fucking incompetent asshole.

  • The Guy with the Camera||

    Why not do both?

  • ||

    Because the camera has to be pointed at the subject - not pointed at the ground and vibrating wildly. So I've heard.

  • This Dave||

    Anybody remember when the footage of Saddam's execution being released was the Worst Thing Ever? The Daily Show crowd tonight reacted to this like it was the latest cute YouTube meme. I'm sure it was because they took all of the wider subtleties into account, and not just because Obama is president this time.

  • Lord Humungus||

    It's Blair Witch II, except set in Libya and with AK-47s.

  • ||

    Maybe he was drunk.

  • Beloved Commenter Tim||

    Colonel Gaddafi has learned the first rule of not being seen...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zekiZYSVdeQ

  • Restoras||

    Right next door, the Egyptians overthrew their dictator only to replace him with a murderous goon state where the army ethnically cleanses Christians and connives when a mob attacks Jews and drives them into exile. (Where else but in the Washington Post can you hear incidents wherein armed security forces kill 23 unarmed people and wound 200 described as "clashes"?)

    I love this schooling of Mika Brzezinski and Joe Scarborough by Niall Ferguson.

  • WTF||

    Yeah, this should work out well. But hey, no American casualties, so it's all good, right?

  • ||

  • Destrudo||

    If only.

  • Warty||

    WIN

  • Beloved Commenter Tim||

    Wonder what became of his all girl bodyguards?

  • El Commentariosa||

    or his Ukranian nurse?

  • Suki||

  • The Rebels||

    Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!

  • ||

    Obama gets them?

  • BoscoH||

    And RIP Edward James Olmos, too. A shame that Dexter fans are left hanging though.

  • wef||

    In imperial terms, this was the

    BEST NOBEL PEACE PRIZE AWARD EVAH!

  • ||

    At least they didn't hang him on a meathook and then parade him around like they did Mussolini.

  • Rich||

    Yet.

  • Suki||

    At least Mussolini was voted out of office first. If he would have just stayed in jail instead of running off with those Germans, he might have been out in time to run for office again.

  • Benito Mussolini||

    On an Esso station, even.

  • Barack Hussein Obama||

    mmm, mmm, mmm

  • Name Nomad||

    That's a bit obscure. Here's what he's talking about.

  • Suki||

    Dittoes.

  • Lord Humungus||

    So Obama, he of the glorious Nobel Peace Prize, is just cleaning up after the Republican presidents?

    Bush the Second never got Osama Bin Laden, and Reagan never got Gaddafi.

    So it takes a Democrat president to really win?

    /sarc

    and with that, I'll run back to reality land with all the other crazies.

  • This Dave||

    Well, I've noticed an uptick lately in people who laud Gorbachev for his foresight in tearing down the Berlin wall, do I guess the pretend history machine can say whatever it wants.

  • ||

    I saw the footage on CNN at lunch. It was 10 times fucking worse than Letterman's monkeycam and BSG shakey-cam combined.

  • Warty||

    BSG shakey-cam

    Did Baltar deserve this for killing 20 billion people, or did he deserve worse?

  • Hugh Akston||

    I'd say he got his just deserts. After all, he did get elected President...and he nailed Six...and Three...and Starbuck...and Tory...and he had that harem toward the end...and apparently he was some kind of angel or something?

    Man, fuck that show.

  • Beloved Commenter Tim||

    The only thing he didn't nail was the centurions, and I think he tried.

  • ||

    How stoned were the BSG writers by the end? They had to have gone straight to rehab when it ended.

  • Hugh Akston||

    No way man, like, that show was totally all about the, y'know deep themes or whatever in All Along the Watchtower. That's totally what we had planned from the beginning, man.

    Oh man I got the munchies.

  • Beloved Commenter Tim||

    I remember when I first began to suspect that the quality was gone, replaced by mystic, psychedelic dreck.

  • Cytotoxic||

    Sadly, it's all too clear in retrospect. The ending was awful.

  • ||

    Ron Moore deserves worse.

  • ||

    did he deserve worse?

    We would have gotten worse, but the Cylons blew up ship that served deep-dish pizza.

  • ||

    Ah yes, the Astral Open Calzone. That was the waste refinery ship, right?

  • ||

    Negligently killing, not intentionally killing.

    Wonder what the sentence would be for negligently killing 20 billion people?

  • Warty||

    A negligent execution?

  • A Serious Man||

    Yeah, like any man, hetero or not, would not have sex with Number Six. I give him a pass, although since the Cylon back turns red during orgasm I can only conclude he wasn't very imaginative in bed.

  • Frayed Knot||

    As far as Jews go, Libya is already ahead of Egypt.

    But yay, Arab Spring, power to the people, blah blah blah.

  • MiNGe||

    JOOOS!!!111!!

  • This Dave||

    Amazing how you can eliminate all of your Jews and yet still blame everything on them. Even the US Post office wouldn't try blaming delivery problems on Injun raids.

  • ¢||

    What's Arabic for "Stop resisting"?

    The nearest thing is "shalom aleikhem"—but, like, Arab-y.

    It's a quasi-imperative variant of "Islam" that means "peace through submission" (but that's not the only thing it means).

    So the way Nation of Islam guys greet each other is "Stop resisting."

    LOL

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    "shalom aleikhem"—but, like, Arab-y.

    You mean salaam aleikhum?

  • Beloved Commenter Tim||

    America's Funniest Home videos- Libyan Intervention edition.

  • Beloved Commenter Tim||

    The finalists for the $10,000 prize are:

    1. Camel kicks revolutionary fighter in crotch.

    2. Off course NATO bomb hits Wedding.

    3. Mob savages Colonel Q.

    Vote now!

  • The Ghost of Muammar Gaddafi||

    Crotch kick, of course!

  • Yet....||

    Another head on a pike for the Preening Afrikan Emperor Obama to take with him on the Campaign tour.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    In a sane and just world, Muammar Ga....err...

    Nevermind.

  • Qadeadfi||

    "Amanda Knox sez, I may not like Italy, but I love City Market's take and bake pizza. I take it home and slice it myself."

    http://thestir.cafemom.com/foo.....t=outbrain

  • ||

    Worst Camera Work Ever.

  • Cosnpiracy Theorist||

    Ah, HAA!!

  • Syd Henderson||

    This is a boon to copy editors everywhere.

  • Hugh Akston||

    So that's the secret cabal behind the War on al Qaida al Qaeda al-Qa'ida Terror.

  • Copy Editor||

    Uh ... "Ding, dong, the witch is dead!"

  • Arboles de la barranca||

    Grisly, ghoulish Prince of War Barack will never use Gaddafi's bloody head as a reelection campaign tool.

  • This Dave||

    He'll just keep it on the shelf next to the Nobel Prize for...you know, like, the stuff he did.

  • Paul||

    Right next door, the Egyptians overthrew their dictator only to replace him with a murderous goon state where the army ethnically cleanses Christians and connives when a mob attacks Jews and drives them into exile.

    But...but... it's springtime for Arabs!

  • A Producer||

    as it was for someone long ago in Deutschland.

  • Paul||

    They lost money on that one.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Meanwhile on CNN...

    NonZionistt Can you imagine if the Tea Klaners were in office...We may have had the same end result but with many dead American soldiers. Great job Mr. President..Great Job !!!

    OBAMA 2012

    balmgirl
    Doesn't anyone notice an alarming trend in the USA - Assasignating the leaders of oil rich nations, assisting in 'revolutions' as long as they will benefit U.S. economy - that 1%, to be sure, not the 99%. Are we sure we want to go down this path of no return? We will become the enemy we beheld, an empire ruled by tyrants who own our media and tell us only the news they want us to hear the way they want us to hear it.
    Rather, solemnly note the end of any human being, especially one who, twenty years ago, was described as 'presidential' but who evidently would not play ball with the USA. because lets face it, its not human rights we care about, or we would not trade with China or borrow their money so that they own our debt. it is oil.
    the funny thing is, we dont even need oil anymore. They are forcing its continued use. dont celebrate this event. It is not their country we should be worried about.

    shalurkdows its so ironic that obama's lack of foreign policy experience was one of his criticisms during the last election cycle. clearly (in my opinion) his most defining legacy thus far is his foreign policy successes as well as his contribution to healthcare reform

    Lion7777 President Obama does not need frills he got the job done Period! The Republicans on the other hand scored O. Go Mr. President you deserve the praise. This Independent is proud that you are the Commander In Chief who got it done.

  • Hugh Akston||

    Those people truly inhabit a different universe. I wonder what Wonder Woman's origin story is there.

  • Jeff||

  • Heroic Mulatto||

  • Paul||

    Mission accomplished, Mr. President.

  • I would say...||

    to nuttyZinnist and lying 666, or whatever, Bush III would have pursued the exact same path. Do you think drones were invented in January 2009????

    Bloody bush knocked the crap out of the mid-east leaving it easy for bloodier Obama (who has exceeded Bush's Afghanistan death toll) to expand the wars to Pakistan and Africa.

    Clueless "My Obama, right or wrong" warmongering assholes.

  • ||

    shalurkdows its so ironic that obama's lack of foreign policy experience was one of his criticisms during the last election cycle. clearly (in my opinion) his most defining legacy thus far is his foreign policy successes as well as his contribution to healthcare reform.

    I'd grant shalurkdows this: What Obama did in Libya (or rather didn't do by not putting troops on the ground) is the only thing I think he got right. In his whole presidency, that's the ONLY thing I can think of that he got right.

    It had to happen eventually, broken clocks...

    On the other hand? I don't understand how a president can be smart enough to keep American ground troops out of Libya--but stupid enough to send American ground troops into Central Africa.

    I'd have supported what Obama did in Libya (not sending in ground troops) regardless of whether the Libyan rebels had been successful.

    ...and I oppose Obama sending ground troops into Central Africa--regardless of whether we're successful there.

    But even for people who do think the ends will justify the means? The end of Obama's Central African odyssey is nowhere in sight. ...so you might want to hold off on hailing Obama's foreign policy--whatever it is--until we see what happens in Central Africa.

  • I would say...||

    "I don't understand how a president can be smart enough....but stupid enough"

    he's the everything President. He can feign smart and be stupid at the same time.

  • This Dave||

    Just remember: Obama deserves all of the credit for this. And those 20,000 missing S.A.M.s? That's someone else's fault.

  • Beloved Commenter Tim||

    Be bloody, bold, and resolute; laugh to scorn
    The power of man, for none of woman born
    Shall harm Macbeth.

  • Abdul||

    You got Ceucescu and Hussein, but left out Samuel K Doe, who's execution by budwesier-swilling rebels was videotaped and led the way to the peaceful and benevolent reign of Charles Taylor.

  • Cabeza de Vaca||

    That was a seriously strange and distrubing video. With the Liberian President begging the Budweiser drinking warlord for mercy, but recieving none.

  • Cytotoxic||

    To be fair, he was an asshole. And now the guy drinking the Budweiser is in the Liberian senate and came in 3rd in the presidential elections.

  • Cabeza de Vaca||

    I just assume all politicians are corrupt assholes. I have no doubt that Samuel K Doe probably got what he deserved. If Liberian Senator Prince Johnson got totured to death on live television also. He definitely would get what he deserved.

  • ||

    "I wish the Libyans the very best for their country, but this occasion is even less promising than your usual brutal killing of a brutal killer."

    I think it's important that Libya's future isn't something Americans necessarily need to approve of or disapprove of--since it's in the hands of the Libyan people. It's their baby--not ours.

    I think we've come to imagine ourselves responsible for the future of the Iraqi people to the point that subconsciously we've become convinced that everything that happens in that part of the world is somehow our responsibility in one way or another.

    I wish the Libyan people well--and I hope they don't blow it. The problems they had before, they never had to worry about solving--because they had a ruthless dictator (and the United States) who were supposedly to blame for everything.

    Back during the American Civil War, I imagine there were British people saying that the Civil War never would have happened if the colonists hadn't overthrown British rule in the American Revolution. ...but who among us Americans regretted our independence?

    No matter what Libya goes through in the coming years, and there will be plenty of problems, other than Gaddafi loyalists, I doubt very many among the Libyan people will regret deposing Gaddafi--any more than Americans regretted independence during the Civil War.

    Oh, and among the reasons they have so many problems simmering is because dictatorships are the absolute worst possible way to address economic, social and ethnic problems. In other words, they didn't really have any opportunity to address those problems in a practical way so long as Gaddafi was in power. I hope the Libyans choose to solve those problems without too much bloodshed, but finally having a dictator out of the way, at least they'll finally have a chance to really address those problems for themselves.

    Good luck to the Libyan people. Congratulations on deposing their own dictator!

  • ||

    "I wish the Libyans the very best for their country, but this occasion is even less promising than your usual brutal killing of a brutal killer."

    I meant to point out that there are good reasons to be optimistic too.

    They have a natural resource the world wants, and their demographics aren't so bad--not too many people. 7 million people in the whole country! Their GDP per capita is a full 70% higher than their neighbors in Egypt.

    Also, they have huge chunks of undeveloped coastline along the Mediterranean.

    Their main export industry is in big demand--and that's completely unlike the crumbling economies of Eastern Europe back when Ceausescu was toppled.

    The future could be bright for the Libyan people.

  • Cytotoxic||

    Unfortunately, a big new export is going to be shoulder-mounted missile launchers. In the thousands. That alone makes this intervention a bad idea.

  • ||

    If that kind of logic ruled our foreign policy, we'd be supporting vicious dictators all over the place--like we did during the Cold War.

    Shoulder weapons or no shoulder weapons, the Libyan rebels just showed Libya and the Arab world that protest, resistance and cooperation with Europeans and the United States?

    Just did in less than a year what that Jihadis could never do.

    A nice fat chunk of the Jihadis who fought in Afghanistan were Libyans who could not make a life for themselves in Gaddafi's Libya. That supply of Jihadis is now gonna be a whole lot less than it used to be.

    There are always risks in everything. You could get hit by a truck on the way to pick up your lottery winnings--does that mean you shouldn't go pick up your money?

    I certainly don't think a stash of weapons is a good enough reason to dissuade us from striking a decisive blow for our interests--throughout the Arab and Muslim worlds.

    You're making getting rid of the root cause of Al Qaeda style terrorism sound like it's a bad thing. It's not.

    Make a sow's ear out of a silk purse--why?

  • Colin||

    Marg bar dictator!

    Hopefully, Dinner Jacket will be next (without any help from us.)

  • Fire Tiger||

    Wondering when the pictures of Obama and Clinton giving each other high fives comes out.

  • A Serious Man||

    Great, now we will never know for sure how to spell Qadaafi (Gaddaafi, Qadafi,...).

  • Robert||

    QuackDaffy

  • ||

    It seems to be a commonality that political systems birthed through violent revolution tend to quickly replace tyranny with tyranny.

    For example, The French Revolution, Russian Revolution, Chinese Great Leap, all quickly devolved into mass murder.

    By contrast, India, whose transition to independence was peaceful, is a healthy democracy.

    America seems to be have been spared this fate because our former "ruling class" was on the other side of an ocean, so we had a hard time carrying out reprisals (though it should be noted that repisals were carried out against loyalists).

    I suspect Egypt will be a hell of a lot better off than Lybia in the end, actually. The problem there is that the peaceful revolutionaries weren't actually the ones who took power.

  • MWG||

    I don't quite get the knee-jerk reaction amongst libertarians to not be happy about the death of Gadhafi. I'm against US intervention and I have no idea if Libya will become a liberal democracy (and neither does Cavenaugh for that matter), but it is fairly satisfying to see a repressive dictator receive justice from the very people he ruled over.

  • Cytotoxic||

    My sentiments exactly.

  • Apatheist||

    India has its fair share of problems with its democracy and was a one party state for the first several decades but I see your point.

    Perhaps India is an exception not because of peaceful independence but because they focused their hatred at Pakistan instead of Britain. Or maybe I'm just a cynic.

    In any case, India's unique system of democracy and its size make it hard to really compare them to anybody else.

    I think the it would be better to say that healthy democracies themselves are rare (or non-existent).

  • Cytotoxic||

    I don't know about that Hazel. Too many peaceful revolutions fail to get a proper sample. Romania ended up better off. Liberia was better off after Taylor was violently overthrown. Uganda too after a Tanzanian invasion (not a revolution admittedly). Even Ethiopia was better off after an American-assisted overthrow. Sometimes you just gotta give violence a chance.

  • MWG||

    Though not necessarily 'revolutions', Germany, Japan, and Italy are also examples where violence begat freedom. Seriously, the track record on how free countries become after war is mixed.

    Despite what Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity say, no one has a clue what the Arab Spring will mean in the long run, but that sure as hell doesn't mean that people should have a chance at freedom.

  • MWG||

    Ugh...

    should = shouldn't

  • ||

    "By contrast, India, whose transition to independence was peaceful, is a healthy democracy."

    I disagree strongly with that one.

    The battle for what was India is still ongoing today. The violence that unleashed is still ongoing--people are still shooting each other and blowing each other up over Kashmir.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I.....ar_of_1947

    Partition! Look at what's still going on in Pakistan!

    Partition was gruesome and horrific. The religious animosity is still with us.

    People have to come to the right conclusions themselves though. Removing dictatorship doesn't solve problems that were simmering before. And dictatorship was never the solution to any of those problems.

    I think that's the lesson to learn here. Is that social, ethnic, economic, etc. problems fester under dictatorship. Those problems cannot be and never are solved by dictatorships. And because they fester for so long under a dictatorship, as soon as the handcuffs are removed--almost universally--all of those problems come to the surface like they're shot out of a cannon.

    It wasn't removing the dictatorship that made those problems however. It was dictatorship that let them fester under the surface for so long that they gained an impetus all their own once the cuffs were taken off.

    That's what happened in the former Yugoslavia. That's what happened in India. I think that happens a lot of places where there was a lot of diversity--and a dictatorship.

    If I thought dictatorships were the solution to economic problems, ethnic tensions, etc., I wouldn't be a libertarian.

    People are all better off generally when they're free to make their own choices--and that goes for diverse populations living under dictatorships too. Just because they have to figure out how to solve their own problems now doesn't mean there won't be an violence, but the problems behind that violence would have just simmered for longer under the dictator anyway.

    I don't see fear of ethnic tensions, etc. as being a good enough reason to keep a dictator around ever.

  • MWG||

    Well said. You don't have to agree with Obama's intervention in Libya to see the death of Gadhafi as a positive thing.

  • Chris||

    You two are absolutely correct. We've been entirely too cynical as is our nature. Let me see if I can muster some enthusiasm here like the two of you.

    Another fundie revolution in the Arab world that will target Christians and Jewish minorities, bring back barbaric tribal practices the Qaddafi regime have attempted to repress like genital mutilation, honor killing, and the arms the confiscate will be sold to other fundies who'll target Americans. Yay!!!!!

  • MWG||

    You don't think honor killings and genital mutilation occur in democracies?

    Essentially what you're arguing is that brutal dictatorship is perfectly acceptable so long as there's even the slightest possibility that people are going to do bad things to other people. How libertarian of you.

  • MWG||

    "...arms the confiscate will be sold to other fundies who'll target Americans."

    You don't think Gadhafi sold weapons to nefarious people? Your ignorance is almost charming.

  • ||

    "Another fundie revolution in the Arab world that will target Christians and Jewish minorities, bring back barbaric tribal practices the Qaddafi regime have attempted to repress like genital mutilation, honor killing, and the arms the confiscate will be sold to other fundies who'll target Americans. Yay!!!!!"

    The fundamentalism we've seen flourish over recent decades was in many ways a reaction to the vicious dictatorships--some of which we supported--throughout the Middle East and North Africa.

    It made sense during the Cold War. Before we became the Largest Foreign Donor to Egypt?

    That title belonged to the USSR.

    You can't even talk about what was really going on with our support for Israel unless you talk about it within the context of the Cold War.

    The Cold War was won, but what do you do with old allies? Abandon them? The vicious repression by our dictator allies fostered the very fundamentalist movements you're citing. ...and the vicious dictators were seen as useful for keeping the fundamentalists in check. Once the people started overthrowing our old allies, the dictators? We had to get on the side of the people.

    That's the other thing I don't think you're factoring into this--the United States wasn't making the calls about this. The people of Tunisia, Egypt and Libya made the calls...

    The choice wasn't between the United States toppling Gaddafi on one hand and life as it was on the other; the choice was between an ongoing insurrection in which we did nothing, stood by, and watched civilians being murdered by Gaddafi--someone we had recently re-befriended? Or, on the other hand, getting on the side of the protestors.

    Going on as things had been wasn't one of the possibilities. The Libyan people made sure of that. This wasn't Iraq. We didn't pick this fight. We just picked a side.

  • Chris||

    Well, that certainly got under someone's skin.

    You don't think honor killings and genital mutilation occur in democracies?

    I don't believe in the validity of democracy anymore than I believe in the validity of monarchies.

    You don't think Gaddafi sold weapons to nefarious people? Your ignorance is almost charming.

    Thanks for the compliment, wished I could return it, but your ignorance has no charm to it whatsoever.

    And yes, you are projecting when you stated that because you obviously know nothing about Gaddafi beyond he was the Goldstein of many news broadcast for approved hatred during the reign of Raygun. Whether he deserved such status or not, I doubt if it mattered to you as the satiation of your animal appetites is quite on display tonight.

    Consider, Gaddafi opened up his internal security files regarding Islamist terrorist to us after 9-11. That is a fact. Libya was used for rendition of suspects. Libya also turned over their weapons programs. Do you think no other dictatorship may have noticed what good that did Gaddafi?

    Whatever the leaders of the West may want to throw to pathetic rednecks like you in the way of red meat, they certainly treated Gaddafi differently in the high society he mingled, as he was a mainstay guest of Berlusconi's dinner parties. Go ahead, yip it up, and clank your beers together with your other redneck buddies. Gaddafi is dead! Long live Al-Qaeda in Libya!

  • MWG||

    You seem to have me mistaken for some sort of 'redneck' conservative. I'm no fan of Reagan and I'm against US military involvement in Libya

    "Libya was used for rendition of suspects."

    You say that as if we as libertarians should be happy about such complicity.

    Just because Gadhafi sucked up to the US in recent years I'm supposed to be concerned about his death? Stalin was also an ally of the US so what's your point? A brutal dictator who's a friend to the US government is still a brutal dictator. If celebrating his death makes one an animal in your eyes that's your problem.

  • Chris||

    Everyone is an animal; it is our sobriety of mind that tempers us from becoming beast.

  • NastroAnus||

    Mark my words, because of what transpired in the last day, we'll lose a city.

  • Trole||

    [sigh]
    Why couldn't it have been SugarFree?

  • ||

    Sic Semper Tyrannis.

    The only objection I have to this fracas is the billion US tax dollars that were tossed in by our president without any legal authority.

    -jcr

  • ||

    ... and speaking of tyrants getting their comeuppance, after much consideration, my opinion is that Julius Caesar had it coming, and the Marcus Junius Brutus did the right thing for the people of Rome.

    -jcr

  • Thomas Wilbur||

    Wonder what happened to the black guy in the pickup with his hands bound...

  • cone crusher ||

    Consider, Gaddafi opened up his internal security files regarding Islamist terrorist to us after 9-11. That is a fact. Libya was used for rendition of suspects. Libya also turned over their weapons programs. Do you think no other dictatorship may have noticed what good that did Gaddafi?The only objection I have to this fracas is the billion US tax dollars that were tossed in by our president without any legal authority.

  • grinding plant||

    Lipu heavy industry is a professional Mobile Crushing Plant manufacturer and exporter in China. We are specializing in Mobile Crushing Plant. These products are been delivered to Europe, United States, Asia, the Middle East, Russia, Africa etc. countries. We are expanding more cooperation partners all over the world.

  • Nike Dunk Shoes||

    thanks

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