Answer: No

Question: "Will the only state to enact stiff regulations to limit greenhouse emissions vote in November to postpone the 'cap and trade'-style rules until its economy survives?"

John Gizzi discusses California's Proposition 23, which would place a moratorium on instituting Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's signature environmental law, Assembly Bill 32 or "California Global Warming Solutions Act."

Proposition 23, "Suspends Implementation of Air Pollution Control Law (AB 32) [....] Until Unemployment Drops to 5.5 Percent or Less for Full Year" was put on the ballot by Assemblyman Dan Logue (R-Linda). Gizzi assesses the chances:

[Logue] noted, every Republican member of the California state Assembly as well as U.S. Senate nominee Carly Fiorina have weighed in for Proposition 23. (To the disappointment of “23” backers, GOP gubernatorial nominee Meg Whitman has yet to endorse the initiative).

The most recent Field Poll showed that by a margin of 48% to 30%, California voters are against Proposition 23.

Disclosure: Valero, which is by far the largest contributor to Prop 23, is my usual station for cheap gas -- but I always pay cash so you can't prove a thing.

That Californians believe a statewide global warming policy will make a serious dent in global warming is a measure of our inflated sense of our own importance. And AB32's potential economic effects are not worth gambling with at this point in the Golden State's history. (Here [pdf] is a study for the so-called Union of Concerned Scientists, concluding that AB32 will not hurt small businesses. Here are small businesses themselves begging for relief from AB32.)

But I think those for/against numbers are pretty reliable. There's a lot of opposition to Prop 23, and while much of it -- such as this boutique-state argument (that Prop 23 will be the real job-killer because it will allow ungreen jobs to compete against green jobs) from one Steve Frisch -- is fanciful and innumerate, it does seem to be shared by a majority of Californians.

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  • Abdul||

    That Californians believe a statewide global warming policy will make a serious dent in global warming is a measure of our inflated sense of our own importance.

    Yeah, just how many carbon emissions can be generated by a state that has largely discouraged industry with over-regulation?

  • juris imprudent||

    Well see if we hadn't built all of those power plants here the last 30 years.

  • ||

    Yeah! ...wait, what?

  • ||

    California should be the country's richest state and be a driver of its economy. Instead it is literally going to turn into Guatamala. When big LA earthquake finally comes, that will be it. There will not be any middle class people left out there. That is a real problem. We basically created a state where all the stupid people could self select and live there. But we chose one of the biggest and best states to do it. If it were some small empty state like Nevada or North Dakota it wouldn't be bad. In fact it would be good. All the stupid people who would otherwise be out screwing up the rest of the country would be confined to one small state. But screwing up California really does hurt the rest of the country.

    At what point do we intervene? At what point do we pull the troops back from Iraq and make a run to Sacramento and just occupy the place and rebuild the society?

  • Joe M||

    Yeah, cuz if it worked in Iraq, it can work in Cali.

    I actually think this is great. We can witness firsthand the economic devastation wreaked by these idiotic regulations. It's almost like a mini-Atlas Shrugged going on out there.

  • ||

    the people in Iraq tend to be more sophisticated and smarter than the ones in California. You are right, California is a much tougher job.

    If it didn't affect the rest of the country so much, I would agree with you for entertainment value alone.

  • Tman||

    It's almost like a mini-Atlas Shrugged going on out there.

    I wouldn't say "mini". California is like the fourth largest economy in the world. Or it was, until its residents started running the entire state in to a ditch.

  • Barack Obama||

    No, it was the Republicans that ran Califonia into the ditch. And it's muddy in that ditch. So now I'm down in that ditch trying to dig them out. But I just can't dig fast enough. So when you go to the polls you gotta ask yourself - do I want to hand the keys back to the people who drove the car into the ditch or do I want to hand them to the people that are trying to dig their way out of that ditch?

  • In Time Of War||

    When I go to the polls for the next presidential election, I'm going to ask myself "Am I better off than I was four years ago?"

  • Ray||

    The one who isn't trying to steal their car.

  • Bill||

    I agree. I like it when states try stupid things like this. I only wish that the Massachusetts health care experiment could have gone on for 10 years or so before they tried to pass Obama-care. Then we might have a better idea of how well it was working.

    I can think of nothing better for people to wake up and see the truth IF there are huge negative effects from this (I think there will be). If they can do something like this in the middle of a recession and after a huge housing bubble that was much worse in California and it does not have detrimental effects (after 5 years, not 6 months) then I will stop worrying as much about policies like these.

  • Anonymous||

    California is actually worse than Guatemala right now.

  • Ragin Cajun||

    Have any monster sinkholes opened up yet? Can we hope one swallows Sacramento?

  • Anonymous||

    Yes.

  • No Name Guy||

    Certainly. It swallowed the what small shreds of common sense remained in the Great State of Insanity.

  • juris imprudent||

    All the stupid people who would otherwise be out screwing up the rest of the country would be confined to one small state.

    You obviously underestimate the number of stupid people in this country. Not even California can hold them all.

  • ||

    There's a reason our pioneering ancestors claimed so much of this great continent of ours...

  • Chief Sitting Duck||

    I blame my people's open borders policy.

  • ||

    Don't kid yourself. We'll be bailing out California, one way or the other.

  • Bill||

    Yes, my statement above is based on us NOT bailing them out. Let the experiment proceed and see what happens.

  • ||

    Oh, I'm all for no bailouts of government. Or, for that matter, of anyone else.

  • MNG||

    Cal has the 10th highest gdp per capita in the US John.

  • Bill||

    With the high taxes and housing prices though this is lowered somewhat as far as real standard of living. But California has typically been a rich state which is why they have had the money to do a lot of things through the state government. Is it sustainable is the real question.

  • ||

    And the place is paradise. Chimpanzees could run the place and it would still be number 1. That a state that spawned the comupter and entertainment industries, has more natural resources than any state but Alaska and has a perfect climate could still be 10th, says all you need to know about how bad the government is. And let's see where it is in 10 years. I bet it is lower than 10th.

  • MNG||

    John
    If I were to decide on a brand name for your argument in this post it would be "chock full o' holes."

  • ||

    Wholes that you can't be bothered to name or argue. California is rich in spite of itself not because of its good government. It could be so much better than what it is.

    To give you an analogy, people of your ilk have taken a Ferrari and run the shit out of the engine without changing the oil and covered it with graffiti. When people like me say "what have you done to our Ferrari?", dumb asses like you respond with "hey it is a Ferrari".

  • ||

    "It's still faster than your piece of shit pinto."

    -MNG's next post

  • ||

    The rednecks out in Kansas are driving a Pinto. The place is flat, doesn't have a lot of scenery or water and has the climate from hell. Yet, they have rebuilt the engine and upgraded the transmission and the pinto runs like a top. Yet MNG will tell you we need to follow the policies of the people who took the Ferrari and treated it like it belong to a 15 year old rap star.

  • Tncm||

    Isn't Chad great, John? As soon as you make an argument he cannot deflect without resorting to the usual Progressive cry of "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!", he either accuses you of logical fallacies that he doesn't have the courtesy to point out, or pretends you never made the argument to begin with.

    About a week ago, on an article whose name escapes me (I'll post it in a reply if I find it), I posted a two and a half page response to him debunking a number of economic fallacies, including the externalities problem and the public utility problem. His response was something along the lines of, "While I could respond to a number of your claims, I'll choose this", responding to my request for him to elaborate on something. That's it. The rest of the two and a half pages ignored, all except for one sentence.

    Chad, champion of the intellectual debate!

  • MNG||

    ARFARFARFARFARFARFARFARFARFARFARF!!!!!

  • ||

    I will conspire with the invaders to bring down my oppressors. Come, take me, rape and pillage, please!

  • ||

    A 'One Man-One Vote' suicide pact.

    I like it.
    Release the Hounds.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    Cap-and-tax is such a bullshit scam.

    Now, here's Chad to tell us why carbon emissions make Baby Jesus weep.

  • Fake Chat||

    But we NEED the government to control everything!

  • ||

    After enough time has passed, and a history is written about this era, it will be a comedy.

  • ||

    John and Ken show down here in Los Angeles have been a bit more blunt. They call this cap 'n trade scheme The Global Warming Final Solution Act, because that will 100% guarantee that California economy will be destroyed. Naturally they support Prop 23.

  • ||

    John and Ken show down here in Los Angeles have been a bit more blunt. They call this cap 'n trade scheme The Global Warming Final Solution Act, because that will 100% guarantee that California economy will be destroyed. Naturally they support Prop 23.

  • ||

    The California Jobs Initiative (CJI) is an oil corporation farce and fraud. There is no connection, whatsoever, between greenhouse gas emission reduction and the loss of jobs . This notion is an insult to the intelligence of the people of California. In fact, there is job growth in the clean, renewable energy industry. Chevron employs 65,000 worldwide and CJI is not going to change this. The only jobs created by the oil industry are clean-up jobs after oil spills and deep water, blow-outs and pump-handler jobs. CJI will make fantastic profits for the oil industry, increase air pollution, especially in communities around their refineries, and there will not be lower gas prices. Both Valero and Tesoro are super Enrons.

  • ||

    For real? Seriously do you mean that pile of stupid or is it performance art? Because if it is art, it is pretty good art.

  • ||

    He's got a Canadian email address.

  • ||

    Where is Dagny T. I hear she has connections in the Canadian Secret Service. She will not be happy to read this from a fellow Cunnuckistani.

  • Warty||

    He's Canadian, dude. Don't judge.

  • juris imprudent||

    That's the problem with Ontario - Canada and California both claim it.

  • BakedPenguin||

    "I came from Canada, so people think I'm slow, eh?"

  • ||

    "I set fires!"

  • SIV||

    Sing those Canucks!

  • SIV||

    D'oh!

    "sting"

  • Spoonman.||

    Actually, Valero and Tesoro produce things of value, unlike Enron.

  • ||

    That's what makes them so Super, i guess.

  • Fire Tiger||

    greenhouse gas emission reduction and the loss of jobs
    To a certain degree this is correct, the jobs aren't lost they just go elsewhere.

  • MNG||

    Earl
    It seems to me that putting restraints on some type of economic actions that otherwise people would engage in is going to have some negative effect on said economy. You might argue the benefits will outweigh the costs, but I don't think you can have your cake and eat it too...

  • squarooticus||

    Just grab some popcorn and watch the show. "Democracy is the theory that the common man knows what he wants, and deserves to get it good and hard." - H.L. Mencken

  • Jeffersonian||

    Exactly the quote that came to mind as I read TC's post. Golden State seppuku, it is.

  • ||

    The Valero brand is not well-instituted south of Fresno but it has a certain romance to it, it makes you feel valiant and heroic to buy from there

  • Joel||

    Val-ero, uh-uh Isn't that the car that KHAN used to hawk on TV?

  • ||

    The Chrysler Cordoba.

  • belshazzar||

    Vo-la-re, oh oh oh oh...

  • ||

    wtf are you talking about

  • ||

    Through early morning fog I see
    Visions of the things to be
    The pains that are withheld for me
    I realize and I can see, that

    {Refrain}
    Suicide is painless
    It brings on many changes
    And I can take or leave it if I please

    Try to find a way to make
    All our little joys relate
    Without that ever-present hate
    But now I know that it's too late

    And {Refrain}

    The game of life is hard to play
    I'm gonna lose it anyway
    The losing card I'll someday lay
    So this is all I have to say

    That {Refrain}

    The only way to win is cheat
    And lay it down before I'm beat
    And to another give my seat
    For that's the only painless feat

    'Cause {Refrain}

    The sword of time will pierce our skin
    It doesn't hurt when it begins
    But as it works its way on in
    The pain grows stronger, watch it grin

    For {Refrain}

    A brave man once requested me
    To answer questions that are key
    Is it to be or not to be
    And I replied, oh, why ask me

    'Cause {Refrain}

    And you can do the same thing
    If you please

  • ||

    thanks, now I'll be whistlin that all day.

  • Pip||

    The way to get a song out of your head is to sing Mary had a Little Lamb several times. The song in your head goes away and Mary had a Little Lamb doesn't stick.

    True story.

  • juris imprudent||

    fanciful and innumerate

    That's a polite way of saying dumber than a box of rocks.

  • ||

    “Hello Morbo. How’s the family?”

    “BELLIGERENT AND NUMEROUS!"

  • Warty||

    Have you been watching the new season? I love a show that can have an episode revolve around a theorem in group theory.

  • ||

    The first few were shaky, but the time machine episode and the return of talking Nibbler won me over.

    I love Nibbler and I don't care who knows it, dammit!

  • Warty||

    "They served us feasts most fancy and vittles most tender!"

  • ||

    "That name is for your sake. In the time it would take to pronounce one letter of my true name, a trillion cosmoses would flare into existence and sink into eternal night!"

  • BakedPenguin||

    They're getting better? Good to know. I saw the "Susan Boil" episode, and was very, very scared.

  • Warty||

    The time machine episode is among the best the series has ever had.

  • ||

    I agree with Warty. Certainly the best "Fry and Leela" episode ever.

    Spoilers...

    The "going forward and not being able to stop" is Poul Anderson's Tau Zero, but I've read the "forward time machine stopping every once in a while to see if backwards time machine has been invented" story somewhere and I can't remember who wrote it (or the title, obviously.)

    (And it's not The Accidental Time Machine by Joe Haldeman, even that is the premise.)

  • Warty||

    The story basis is a re-telling of a Poul Anderson novel of 1953 "Flight to forever". Nothing about looking for a backwards time machine though.

  • ||

    Wine is fine
    But whiskey's quicker
    suicide is slow with liquor
    Take a bottle drown your sorrows
    THEN IT FLOODS AWAY TOMMOROW!!
    Evil thoughts and evil doings
    Cold, alone you hang in ruins
    Thought that you'd escape the reaper
    You can't escape the master keeper
    'Cause you feel life's unreal and you're living a lie
    Such a shame who's to blame and you're wondering why
    Then you ask from your cask is there life after birth
    What you saw can mean hell on this earth
    hell on this earth!!
    Now you live inside a bottle
    The reaper's traveling full throttle
    It's catching you but you don't see

    --Straw-hat-tip to metrolyrics.com

  • BakedPenguin||

    Oh, and here is some wonderful self-delusion.

    "What needs to happen on the policy front in order to build momentum?

    In the first place, small businesses need access to more bank credit to create jobs. Banks feel conflicted by calls from the Obama administration to increase lending while regulators are instructing them to add to their reserves...

    The White House also should press Congress to pass legislation modernizing Cold War-era restrictions on exports of technology products and services that are already commercially available from our allies. ...And if the White House is serious about doubling exports by 2015, it needs to push trade deals with South Korea, Colombia and Costa Rica through Congress....

    Congress also should pass legislation to temporarily extend the Bush tax cuts that are set to expire at the end of this year....

    Another must-do: by 2012, Congress needs a credible long-term plan in place to reduce the deficit. If it doesn't, international financial markets might force our hand by demanding a higher rate of return on U.S. Treasurys.

    Washington has to focus like a laser on helping businesses create jobs... The U.S. economy has already adapted to serious imbalances in record time: There's ample reason to believe in its dynamism in the months and years ahead."

  • ||

    more from that article:

    Additionally, the White House needs to press Unicorn Ranchers to increase production, as well as a number of other things the White House shouldn't be sticking its grubby hands in.

  • ||

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.....132417.htm
    "...helps to explain how ancient alligators and giant tortoises were able to thrive on Ellesmere Island well above the Arctic Circle, even as they endured six months of darkness each year."

    Then:"the coldest month temperature was about 32 to 38 degrees" (plus)
    Now: "roughly minus 37 degrees F in winter"

    So they're guestimating that it was about 60 to 70 degrees F warmer then than it is now.

  • ||

    So global warming is true after all.

  • Bill||

    Maybe they left off a minus sign??

  • ||

    The first half an hour of Waterworld is actually good.

    In fact whenever the movie focuses on Kevin Constner surviving alone on his boat the movie kind of sings.

    The movie should have just been a sailing movie in which Costner's character was either chased by or chased an other. A simple cat and mouse survival story.

    The floating shit pile island and the oil tanker killed that movie.

    Plus why even explain that the planet got drowned? The intro credits shows the oceans rising globally...the audience didn't need to be retold that.

    I better stop talking about it cuz it makes me pissed off.

  • BakedPenguin||

    I thought that movie was underrated. It doesn't compare to Mad Max: The Road Warrior or other good dystopias, but it's not the incredibly horrible pile of celluloid it was made out to be.

    I'd agree with most of your points, joshua. If they were going to do the floating horror pile, they should have kept it shorter.

    Plus why even explain that the planet got drowned?

    Not as bad as Midichlorians!, but yeah - if people won't accept your fabntasy world, they're probably not going to see the movie in the first place. Why waste the time of those who do?

  • ||

    If every ounce of ice melted on the planet, would there even be enough water to drown cities miles deep? So that only the tip of Mt. Everest was above land?

    That movie is so retarded.

  • ||

    That is why is should have been a sci fi movie. Make Costner a human astronaut who crashes his ship on a planet totally covered by water and with some post apocalyptic civilization. Think Planet of the Apes meets The Road Warrior.

  • Warty||

    I've read that if the Antarctic ice sheet melted, the sea would rise something like 200 feet. Which makes sense, because Mt. Everest is 300 feet tall.

  • ||

    But water breeds and multiples. All you need is a little bit of it on dry land and within a few weeks you get Lake Erie. Didn't you know that?

  • BakedPenguin||

    Okay, I missed the part where it was Earth. I thought it was a science-fiction story about another planet.

  • ||

    If they didn't want to write a political polemic, they could have made it a sci fi movie and set it on another planet and dispensed with why the planet was covered with water.

    Also, making it a cat and mouse movie would have been much better. It is always better to make a movie on the outskirts of an alien civilization and let the audience imagine what the big stuff looks like. The main civilization will never meet the audiences expectations. So don't show it to them. Show them the cat and mouse game out in the boonies and let them imagine how cool the main civilization must be.

  • ||

    The main civilization will never meet the audiences expectations. So don't show it to them.

    Understanding this tenet was the most disappointing moment of growing up.

  • ||

    See Star Wars for the best example of this. The first three movies were set in the sticks. You never saw the capital of the empire or the senate or anything like that. The last three were in the middle of things. And the civilization it showed pretty much sucked compared to what you thought it would be.

  • BakedPenguin||

    I'm not trying to disprove your point by saying that the planetary settings were - by far - not the worst parts in SW: 1-3.

  • ||

    I thought the planet-wide megalopolis was one of the few cool things.

    And that part where they threw Hayden Christensen into lava. I booed when he crawled back out.

    Is he the worst actor of his generation when you consider how many movies he's been in?

  • BakedPenguin||

    His Keanu-worthy performaces in 2 & 3 were painful. "See, I can appear angry! GRRR!" And they should have given him "wide-eye" contacts for his love scenes. Seriously, if you can't fake being attracted to Natalie Portman, even when she's off her acting game, you need help.

    Also, the dialogue. But that's a whole other post.

  • ||

    Saw it in the theater. It is not the worst "worst" film around but it's not the best either, it's intermediate. "Battlefield Earth: A Saga of 3000" is good if you're drunk; in a few years "Showgirls" will be a "rediscovered classic" and I never did get around to seeing "Ishtar" even though Isabelle Adjani is in it

  • ||

    By the way global warming is a libertarian conspiracy for seasteading.

  • ||

    Will CA's position stop global warming, of course not.

    But someone's got to lead the way.

  • ||

    By the way is California going to legalize pot?

    Cuz that would be cool.

  • Jack of All Threads||

    The $165k zombie payout was a drop in the bucket compared to this:

    $3M settles lawsuit against disgraced Metro Gang Strike Force

    A $3 million settlement has been reached in a civil lawsuit against the once elite, now disbanded Metro Gang Strike Force.

    The victims' attorneys announced the settlement this morning in Minneapolis. A federal judge must still approve the settlement.

    Attorneys for both sides said "a significant portion of the settlement will fund additional statewide educational programs to train and educate police officers about cultural and racial sensitivity, property handling procedure and basic constitutional rights," according to a news release.

    The proposed class-action lawsuit, filed in federal court in Minneapolis, accused officers assigned to the now-defunct unit of stealing almost $12,000 worth of cash, jewelry and other property in four incidents since June 2008.

    None of the six people who claim strike force officers took their property in illegal seizures was ever charged with a crime, and they never got their property back, says the suit, which sought class-action status.

    The claimants, through their counsel, must submit sworn statements and documentary evidence, according to the release.

    The suit, filed in July 2009, was the second filed against the unit in U.S. District Court last summer. On June 22, 2009, a Minneapolis couple sued the strike force, claiming that up to 20 officers burst into their home last February, handcuffed them, seized property and then failed to list a laptop computer and digital camera on their search warrant inventory.

    http://www.twincities.com/ci_15889867

  • ||

    "Attorneys for both sides said "a significant portion of the settlement will fund additional statewide educational programs to train and educate police officers about cultural and racial sensitivity, property handling procedure and basic constitutional rights," according to a news release.

    The proposed class-action lawsuit, filed in federal court in Minneapolis, accused officers assigned to the now-defunct unit of stealing almost $12,000 worth of cash, jewelry and other property in four incidents since June 2008."

    First, what does racial sensitivity have to do with stealing? Is it okay as long as you only steal white people's stuff? Second, why the fuck to cops need a class to be told not to steal?

    What a joke. Instead of making the victims whole, lets use the settlement to hire more civil servants to give bullshit classes to cops who don't care anyway since they are never held responsible for their fuck ups.

  • ||

    +1

  • SFC B||

    I swear while I was reading most of this I was thinking "Did I miss an episode of 'The Shield'?" An actual small group of LEO going by the name "Strike Force" and stealing from minorities in the course of their illicit duties. Vic Mackey was a piker.

  • ||

    Attorneys for both sides said "a significant portion of the settlement will fund additional statewide educational programs to train and educate police officers about cultural and racial sensitivity, property handling procedure and basic constitutional rights," according to a news release.

    So, basically, this landmark settlement is little more than a minor budget adjustment, where funds are shifted within government to fund additional bureaucrats to do outreach and shit.

    The Republic is saved.

  • Mosquevite Sandwich||

    Best case scenario is, not unlike the Hope-and-Changer-in-chief, California's demise will be an eye opener for residents of other states of the economic havoc "green legislation" will wreak.

  • ||

    California's demise will be an eye opener for residents of other states

    Nope. People who haven't figured it out by now, will never figure it out.

  • johnl||

    Green jobs is the stupidest broken windows sloganeering ever. While we are at it let's amputate everyone's left foot. Think of all the jobs it will create making limbs or retrofitting manual drive cars so the clutch can be depressed with a heel. California can totally dominate the market for cars with space for unbending left feet and we'll rule the world when the Chinese start routinely amputating their left feet as well.

  • lj200904||

    it's a sex man~~2rd3reg4

  • lj200904||

    i like strong man YURCHU64

GET REASON MAGAZINE

Get Reason's print or digital edition before it’s posted online

  • Video Game Nation: How gaming is making America freer – and more fun.
  • Matt Welch: How the left turned against free speech.
  • Nothing Left to Cut? Congress can’t live within their means.
  • And much more.

SUBSCRIBE

advertisement