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Three Views of the Protests
Mark Hemingway seconds Nick Gillespie's assessment of the anti-tax, anti-Obama protesters that descended on Washington, DC this weekend:
At The Daily Beast, John Avalon disagrees, grumbling about the "wave of
white people" he encountered on the Mall, all baying for the
president's blood:
One can disagree with the breathless tone of many Tea Party
participants, as I frequently do, without thinking that hyperbolic
comparisons between a sitting president and a fascist dictator are
anomalous or somehow indicative of a new low in American
political discourse. (Is it just me or are "new lows" reached with
the frequency of new 100-meter butterfly world records?)
If we must make yet another reference to Richard Hofstader, let us please acknowledge that the paranoid style in American politics dates back to the histrionics of John Winthrop, not to the inauguration the 44th president. As Hemingway points out—and is worth pointing out to the shocked denizens of Netroots Nation—there is nothing new in any of this. Was it incitement to violence when author Nicholson Baker wrote Checkpoint, a book imagining the assassination of George W. Bush? How about Gabriel Range's faux documentary The Death of a President, which is also premised on the murder of Dubya?
Avalon thinks signs proclaiming the president to be a human embodiment of Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact are stupid (they are!) and that, ultimately, it amounts to an "incitement to violence." Really? If this is the case, shouldn't those boneheads who argue incoherently that Obama is some Kenyan Mao-Hitler-Mobutu hybrid be piled in the back of a Secret Service paddywagon? Look, I agree that this stuff is unseemly and historically illiterate (conservatives, of all people, should know the difference between an auto bailout and an archipelago of Stalinist slave labor camps and that Bolsheviks overthrew the Czar), but the impression I got from the protest was that, while there were too many kooks for my taste, most of the attendees were ordinary folks that were simply pissed off.
Political paranoia is impervious to facts and reason, and the paranoiacs are a fact of life. So Avalon can lament the good old days of politics when the crazies existed, but Glenn Beck didn't; when technology wasn't there to help organize like-minded loons; and when people thought Bush killed 3,000 Americans on 9/11 and Bill Clinton murdered Vince Foster (who was sleeping with his wife, who is probably a lesbian). But they aren't the backbone of the Tea Party movement, which, for all of its faults, actually represents the legitimate concerns of those voters who care about limited government.
juris imprudent|9.14.09 @ 7:14PM|#
Sounds like the Tea Party protests are a political rorschach test.
|9.14.09 @ 7:21PM|#
somehow indicative of a new low in American political
discourse.
Hey, until at least two Senators get beaten bloody with a
metal tipped cane on the Senate floor, we can't honestly claim to
have sunk to "a new low" in American politics.
Shannon Love|9.14.09 @ 7:29PM|#
I am always amused at how casually leftist accuse non-leftists
of the most serious and grievous moral failings imaginable and just
how shocked they are when someone makes the exact same accusation
of them.
Everyone who disagrees with a leftists on any subject is instantly
labeled racist, sexist, homophobic etc. If we disagree with their
social welfare policy you want people to die in the streets. If you
don't like taxes its because your greedy and want people to die in
the streets.
My favorite one is the common assertion the last 8 years that Bush
invaded Iraq for no other reason than the profit of his buddies.
Think about that. They seriously claim he murdered tens of thousand
(or hundreds of thousands or millions depending on their level of
hysteria) just for profit. Is there a worse political crime
imaginable? And they make that accusation casually, routinely
almost as a matter of ritual and then act surprised that anyone
could take offense.
Of course, once they control all three branches of the government
what do they do about the most monstrous crime in American history?
Nothing. It's "never mind time."
Leftists are so full of their own sense of moral superiority that
it honestly shocks them that others see them in any other way. They
slander others with the same lack of awareness that people in south
used to slander African-Americans. They show the same confused
surprised when that is turned around on them as well.
@ |9.14.09 @ 7:29PM|#
Calling the president a communist or even Hitler is
something far beyond simple incivility or street theater-it is an
accusation that intentionally stirs the crazy pot
Indeed.
Neu Mejican|9.14.09 @ 7:30PM|#
but the impression I got from the protest was that, while
there were too many kooks for my taste, most of the attendees were
ordinary folks that were simply pissed off.
Sounds like a description of any large crowd.
Neu Mejican|9.14.09 @ 7:32PM|#
I am always amused at how casually leftist
partisans accuse non-leftists other partisans of the
most serious and grievous moral failings imaginable and just how
shocked they are when someone makes the exact same accusation of
them.
Hugh Akston|9.14.09 @ 7:38PM|#
Was it incitement to violence when author Nicholson Baker
wrote Checkpoint, a book imagining the assassination of George W.
Bush? How about Gabriel Range's faux documentary The Death of a
President, which is also premised on the murder of
Dubya?
I dunno, what color is he?
@ |9.14.09 @ 7:39PM|#
Neu Mejican | September 14, 2009, 7:30pm | #
"while there were too many kooks for my taste, most of the
attendees were ordinary folks that were simply pissed off"
Sounds like a description of any large crowd.
Sounds like rush hour in South Florida.
Neu Mejican|9.14.09 @ 7:53PM|#
Just ran across this.
Why does this guy get a police escort?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q7XH8lfGMc
|9.14.09 @ 8:11PM|#
But they aren't the backbone of the Tea Party movement, which, for all of its faults, actually represents the legitimate concerns of those voters who began to care about limited government this January.
Before? Not so much.
|9.14.09 @ 8:17PM|#
Like Davebo says. If I concede that fringe elements are not the backbone of the Tea Party movement, can I still discount the movement's views because these same people sat on their hands through all the excesses of the Bush administration?
Tricky Prickears|9.14.09 @ 8:23PM|#
Bill Clinton murdered Vince Foster? I thought the suicide was legit. The reason he killed himself was because he was so in love with Hillary, and he knew he could never have her. The reason that she "rushed" over there was to retrieve a pair of her panties, that were in his desk drawer.
|9.14.09 @ 8:25PM|#
The celebrity deaths
will continue until morale improves.
LOS ANGELES - Patrick Swayze, the hunky actor who danced his way into viewers' hearts with "Dirty Dancing" and then broke them with "Ghost," died Monday after a battle with pancreatic cancer. He was 57.
slutmonkey|9.14.09 @ 8:25PM|#
1. How is Teabaggers and insult? I always felt it was a big coup
when you are able to stick your nuts in someone's face.
2. Healthcare "debate" pisses me off because the issue too
emotional for most people on either side to debate rationally.
Rich|9.14.09 @ 8:26PM|#
Sounds like the Tea Party protests are a political rorschach
test.
Yeah, but who's showing the dirty
pictures?
|9.14.09 @ 8:31PM|#
Calling the president a communist or even Hitler is
something far beyond simple incivility or street theater-it is an
accusation that intentionally stirs the crazy pot. It is ultimately
an incitement to violence.
Oh yes, and calling insurgents "minutemen", or the US a global
oppressor, or the capitalist system "evil" isn't an incitement to
violence?
The left has inciting violence against "the capitalist system" down
to a science. Complete with spreading misinformation about the US
all over the third world in an effort to enable Marxist
revolutions.
If making Hitler comparisons is an incitement to violence, then the
left already has the blood on millions on it's hands, cause it has
done far worse to incite violence in the name of their cause than
anyone at the tea party protests ever has.
Tricky Prickears|9.14.09 @ 8:41PM|#
If making Hitler comparisons is an incitement to violence,
then the left already has the blood on millions on it's hands,
cause it has done far worse to incite violence in the name of their
cause than anyone at the tea party protests ever has.
Let's be clear on this. It was Democrat Lyndon LaRouche
that started the Obama/Hitler comparisons.
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2009/3635truth_will_out.html
|9.14.09 @ 8:59PM|#
can I still discount the movement's views because these same
people sat on their hands through all the excesses of the Bush
administration
No, because it's not true. If you didn't hear small-government
Republicans and independents complaining about excessive spending
under Bush, you weren't listening. The '06 and '08 elections were
at least partly a rebuke on that point.
Besides, it's an issue of scale. Obama will increase the debt more
in one year than Bush did in eight years. It's not really hypocrisy
if someone who protests something didn't protest when it was 1/8th
the problem.
Gilbert Martin|9.14.09 @ 9:48PM|#
"Calling the president a communist or even Hitler is something
far beyond simple incivility or street theater-it is an accusation
that intentionally stirs the crazy pot. It is ultimately an
incitement to violence."
Except of course when it's a Republican president - like GW
Bush.
In that case, of course, dissent is the highest form of
patriotism.
Gilbert Martin|9.14.09 @ 10:02PM|#
"Besides, it's an issue of scale. Obama will increase the debt
more in one year than Bush did in eight years. It's not really
hypocrisy if someone who protests something didn't protest when it
was 1/8th the problem."
Excellent point.
The leftist's whose only reply to criticisms about Obama's actions
are "but what about Bush" are trying to create an equivelency that
isn't even close to actually being equal.
Bush never attempted anything even remotely comparable to the size
and scope of expansion of government power (and spending )in
virtually every aspect of existence that Obama is attempting to
do.
Obama is doing stuff that will have signifcant impacts on the
national economy and the lives of virtually everyone in the
country. And he's trying to jam it all through at breakneck
speed.
Bush never did anything remotely comparable.
Indeed for all the leftists talk about Bush "shredding the
Constitution", etc. What did he do that ever had that much real
world impact on the lives and activities of regular people.
About the only difference in my life was I got a tax cut under
Bush. That was fine with me.
Obama wants to wreck my healthcare plan, ruin the economy and my
investments and drive up my electric and gas bills.
The comparison is not even close.
The Libertarian Guy|9.14.09 @ 10:38PM|#
Shannon Love may not have rounded it out, but there was a point,
and still is:
When one party has Ultimate Power, they are Above Reproach, at
least in their own minds.
When Bush and his gang ruled their trillion-dollar-budget street
gang, woe be'd unto anyone who disparaged them. But... now that
Democrats are swaggering around drunk on the heady brew of
nigh-impenetrable power, it's THEIR turn to preen, then shout and
glare through Pelosi Eyes when anyone dares tump their sacred
ground.
In other words, "It's okay when OUR side does it"-ism strikes when
either of the Brand X Parties grabs the reins of the state in their
greasy claws. Repubs did the "How fucking DARE you speak ill of
us?" dance when they had the whole pie to themselves, and now the
Dems are doing exactly the same thing in their own disgusting
fashion... but it's eerily similar in a lot of ways.
I'd give a months' pay to hear someone say "Fuck 'em all" on
national live uncensored TV.
|9.14.09 @ 10:48PM|#
but the impression I got from the protest was that, while
there were too many kooks for my taste, most of the attendees were
ordinary folks that were simply pissed off.
Most libs cannot see the difference between the two, Mike. The
political discourse á la Pelosi has become quite jingoistic and
manichean - Either one is with the True Messiah, Obama, or one is
(take you pick): a racist, a right-wing kook, a Nazi, an ignorant
redneck, a hick, a misguided fool, a Glenn Beck drone, a Limbaugh
drone . . . you name it.
Next, they will want to nail his cap on a post and expect us to bow
to it...
smartass sob|9.14.09 @ 11:00PM|#
The reason that she "rushed" over there was to retrieve a
pair of her panties, that were in his desk drawer.
Oh, Tricky! Hillary doesn't wear panties - men's Jockey shorts
maybe, but not panties.
24AheadDotCom|9.14.09 @ 11:09PM|#
MarkHemingway??? JonAvlon!?!?!?
Those of you who aren't bound for the Sun should see
my coverage of the event. Eleven updates, all action-packed and
ready to inform.
EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy|9.14.09 @ 11:14PM|#
What did [Bush the Lessor] do that ever had that much real world impact on the lives and activities of regular people.
Um...Medicare part D (also know as Socialized Medicine the Prequel,
Book 4) and phase one of the "stimulus" nonsense.
Less immediate, but none-the-less very real
1. Claimed the power to indefinitely detain people on his say-so
alone, and that he did not have to answer Writs of Habeas Corpus on
these matters, and implemented this policy
2. As above but for people taken into custody in a law enforcement
setting.
3. As above but applying to American citizens.
4. Waged war on the basis of an "Authorization to Use Force" in
lieu of a "Declaration of War". I know, Congress went along and it
seems like a small thing, but once they start playing word games,
they aren't going to stop, so this goes on my list.
5. Authorized a variety of dodges to get around the ban on
torturing people. If you want to argue that the things done my US
personnel weren't quite torture, that is you business, but there is
no getting around the fact that we gave people to torturers with
the understanding that they would do their worst.
6. Claimed the power to spy on Americans without a warrant in
direct contravention of the law of the land, and enlisted the aid
of several major corporations to install the infrastructure to do
so on a industrial scale.
and various other "minor" insults like nominating Strip Search
Sammy to the Supreme Court, but they don't really rise to the live
of these others.
Not that the Obama gets a pass on any of this stuff (between being
around and not objecting at the time, and not doing anything to
roll it back since assuming office), but don't heap the man with
undeserved praise.
|9.14.09 @ 11:19PM|#
And when the dust settles and the Congress gets back to the
business of mis-rule, it will not matter one iota how many
protestors there were, what they said, who they slandered, what
pictures (or guns for that matter) they carried, because it will be
business as usual in Washington. When the elections roll around in
2010, the Socialist-Democrats will vote the dead vote, the
imprisoned felon vote, various other ineligible groups' votes, 95%
of African-Americans will once again vote for the members of their
Messiah's political gang, and the usual bunch of useful morons of
other ethnicities will follow right along. The
Republican-Ignorantes will stumble into a few more seats in the
House, maybe one in the Senate, and The One will once again be in
the saddle and ready, in his second term, to repeal the
Twenty-Second Amendment ... right after he nationalizes Church's
Fried Chicken and the DQ chain of fast food joints.
It simply won't make any difference, but the protestors can
truthfully claim that they had their chance to squeal before being
turned into bacon. No amount of protest is going to be effective.
No amount of sarcasm is going to be effective. Give up. It is the
eleventh hour, fifty-eighth minute and you cannot stop the clock.
The last 40 years, all of the oh-so-superior anti-statists in the
U.S. have wasted their time with foolishness and costume parties
and debating Nozick and magic thinking about how we were all going
to be free again. But none of you actually DID anything to change
it. And don't talk about the LP; more talkers and time-wasters,
coupled with opportunistic failures from the Republican ranks. Not
effective. So, here we are and the band is warming up; is that
"Nearer My God to Thee" I hear? Too bad it isn't "The Battle Hymn
of the Republic".
alan|9.14.09 @ 11:45PM|#
g. The Republican-Ignorantes will stumble into a few more
seats in the House,
The last 40 years, all of the oh-so-superior anti-statists in
the U.S. have wasted their time with foolishness and costume
parties and debating Nozick and magic thinking
When the elections roll around in 2010, the Socialist-Democrats
will vote the dead vote, the imprisoned felon vote, various other
ineligible groups' votes
That counts almost every one in the set of people you are railing
against. Who did you leave off? Ross Perot's people maybe? Are you
so sure you have lived up to your own unimpeachable standards?
Sean Scallon|9.15.09 @ 12:12AM|#
"but the impression I got from the protest was that, while there
were too many kooks for my taste, most of the attendees were
ordinary folks that were simply pissed off."
Great! We should keep Obama and the Democrats in power so they can
be perpetually angry. Othwerise, when the GOP is in power, they're
either mindlessly patriotic or sullenly apathetic.
Perhaps I shouldn't too hard on johnny-come-latelys (although as
Ron Paul supporter they would have been nice to have on our side
two years ago.) After all, what would religion be without
converts.
But at the same time however, we should remember that's its not
just the people waving the "Obama is Hitler" placards that are of
concern, but those who protest a national health care service in
order to protect the government benefits they already enjoy. That
truly is crazy and disturbing.
Sean Scallon|9.15.09 @ 12:25AM|#
"Bush never attempted anything even remotely comparable to the
size and scope of expansion of government power (and spending )in
virtually every aspect of existence that Obama is attempting to
do."
So the TSA, TARP, the Homeland Security Department, DARPA, No Child
Left Behind tests, torture, spying on U.S. citizens, prescription
drug benefits, a bloated military industrial complex taking over
failing banks, doesn't qualify on the socialism degree scale?
I guess it's another way of saying "Bush II was the lesser of two
evils" argument
Still evil though, and wouldn't suprise me if some in Tea Party
crowd didn't see it that way either.
D.R.M.|9.15.09 @ 12:34AM|#
and that Bolsheviks overthrew the Czar
They did? Gosh, I was pretty sure that the Czar was overthrown in
March 1917, and the Bolsheviks overthrew Alexander Kerensky in
November 1917.
JB|9.15.09 @ 12:53AM|#
Hey Avalon, the Left has been shouting 'Bushitlerneocondevilchimp' at Bush for 8 years. There is nothing Obama can be called that is too much in comparison. Especially since he is so much worse than Bush.
d|9.15.09 @ 2:06AM|#
As you can see from the list of the All-Time Leading Hitlers, Bush is the biggest Hitler ever, then Obama, then Saddam
IceTrey|9.15.09 @ 3:11AM|#
I don't think the Bolsheviks overthrew the Tsar. It was really the mutiny of his troops in Petrograd that forced him to abdicate.
BarryV|9.15.09 @ 5:23AM|#
D.R.M.
and that Bolsheviks overthrew the Czar
They did? Gosh, I was pretty sure that the Czar was overthrown in
March 1917, and the Bolsheviks overthrew Alexander Kerensky in
November 1917.
Came here to say that, I'm glad I wasn't the only one to spot
it.
Gilbert Martin|9.15.09 @ 8:35AM|#
EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy, I disagree with your characterization
of a lot of the things you listed about Bush but I'm not going to
get into all that.
You are missing the main point. Virtually everything you have
alluded to except for the prescription drug entitlement has not
really had any impact of any substance on 99.99% of the
population.
The stuff Obama is trying to do will cause huge changes to the
entire national economy and have far more sweeping impacts on
everyone's lives.
robc|9.15.09 @ 9:14AM|#
Hey, until at least two Senators get beaten bloody with a
metal tipped cane on the Senate floor, we can't honestly claim to
have sunk to "a new low" in American politics.
Low? That might have been the high point.
kilroy|9.15.09 @ 10:58AM|#
Gilbert,
"You are missing the main point. Virtually everything you have
alluded to except for the prescription drug entitlement has not
really had any impact of any substance on 99.99% of the
population."
You're usually spot on in your points but...
Got on an airplane lately? And I must say that Bush successfully
did with the PATIROT act excatly what Obama did with the Porkulous
and tried to do with healthcare reform.
I said that to say this. They will both be remembered for the vast
amounts of damage they've done to America and the world. Only time
will tell which pile of shit is bigger.
tekende|9.15.09 @ 11:09AM|#
EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy -
Tell me, how many of those changes has Obama reversed?
EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy|9.15.09 @ 11:12AM|#
takende, from the above post:
Not that the Obama gets a pass on any of this stuff (between being around and not objecting at the time, and not doing anything to roll it back since assuming office)
You owe me an apology. Just a little one is this was simply a
failure of reading all the way through, but a big one you were
trying to cast me as some partisan hack.
tekende|9.15.09 @ 11:38AM|#
Whoops, sorry. I actually did read your comment all the way through, but then I read the rest of the comments before I posted and forgot you'd said that.
</|9.15.09 @ 1:11PM|#
Got on an airplane lately?
No. Too busy making ends meet for my car to waste time and money on
something I could do electronically.
Gilbert Martin|9.15.09 @ 2:37PM|#
"Got on an airplane lately? And I must say that Bush
successfully did with the PATIROT act excatly what Obama did with
the Porkulous and tried to do with healthcare reform."
No I haven't.
I very seldom fly anywhere. So that hasn't had much effect on me
either.
But even so, as irritating as the delays and hassles at airports
are, that still is no comparison the effect of something like cap
and trade that will mess up the economy (and people's investments
in their retirement accounts, etc.) increase energy costs and lower
productity. And then there is the new healthcare "reform" that will
screw over everyone who already has health insurance.
As I said before, the order of magnitude is not even
comparable.
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