Update From the Brownshirt/Libertarian Menace

Previous episodes: I, II, III, IV, V, VI.

Robert Kuttner, Washington Post, "Rage the Left Should Use":

When economically stressed and frightened people are anxious and sullen, you never know who will capture their fears and hopes. In the 1930s, economic anxiety produced leaders as different as Franklin Roosevelt and Adolf Hitler. History shows that if the reformist left doesn't offer a plausible story and strategy of reform, the lunatic right will gain ground even with an implausible one. So where are the liberal protesters? The initiative has passed to the know-nothing right [...]

The remedy is not left-wing mobs to contest right-wing ones. In Germany in the 1930s, fascists tilted in the street with communists, and both were recipes for disaster.

Nina Burleigh, Huffington Post, "Aiming at Obama":

Can anyone remember what happened the last time a left-winger brought a loaded assault rifle to display in public within sight of a George W. Bush presidential event? No, we can't, because college kids with backpacks sporting John Kerry stickers got thrown in jail for their menacing presence at Bush rallies. Anyone more threatening than that was already in lockdown days before the band struck up "Hail to Chief." That was back in the good old days when gun-owning American brown-shirts felt "secure" about their "rights." [...]

Now that the right wing feels its "values" threatened by a lawfully elected progressive administration that is attempting to bring America up to the global standard in terms of sane foreign policy and morally right social services, and their heroes on Wall Street have left them to fester with rage in the dying church of new cars and new television sets, the true face of American fascism is emerging. Not very pretty is it?

It remains to be seen how far the brownshirts will test their supposedly threatened Constitutional "freedoms," but I put my money on seeing more menace and more outright violence as they come to terms with losing political power and the economy in the same year.

DeWayne Wickham, USA Today, "White Racism's Convenient Target: Our President":

White racism — which was widely rumored to have been driven into remission by the election of Barack Obama is resurging precisely because of his victory. Evidence of this reaction to the nation's first black president can be found in the uptick of hateful public speech and in the growing number of threats by activists who are armed and motivated to do harm. [...]

These gathering clouds should not be ignored; the price would be too high.

Josh Marshall, Talking Points Memo, "Troubled History":

Let's be honest with ourselves: the American right has a deep-seated problem with political violence. It's deep-seated; it's recurrent and it's real. And it endangers the country. It just makes sense to say something the first time they hit the sauce and not wait for things to get really out of hand.

Roland Martin, Creators Syndicate, "Hate Should Not Drive Health Care Debate":

Americans deserve vigorous debate on health care. But this, folks, simply isn't it. It's just rhetorical thuggery, and the last thing we need is a lynch mob mentality dominating this critical issue.

Shaun Waterman, ISN Security Watch, "Costs of War: Paranoid Populism":

The last time the militia movement was in its ascendant was during the 1990s - and it ended with the 1995 bombing of the Alfred P Murrah federal building in Oklahoma City, which killed 168 people. [...]

The most important difference today, the report notes, is that "the federal government - the entity that almost the entire radical right views as its primary enemy - is headed by a black man," adding racist rage of white supremacists to the heady mix of militia ideology [...]

And yet, when one considers the availability of firearms to protesters with an angry narrative of victimization, and the growing influence of a movement which glorifies violence against African-Americans, one can hardly avoid a sense of foreboding.

Annette Fuentes and Chip Berlet, New America Media, "Behind the Town Halls' 'Angry White Men'":

Who are these people screaming and shouting at the town hall meetings?

It's an AstroTurf campaign to fill people with scare stories and misinformation. Even if these people say, 'No one told me to come,' they are getting direct mailings telling them to go to meetings and ask questions. They are angry because they feel displaced. They feel pushed out of the way by liberals, people of color and immigrants. It's the story they have told themselves to explain why they haven't made it in America. It's racial anxiety fueled by a bad economy, a black president and disparities at a time when white people’s supremacy is being challenged.

Now we have a black president, and for the most part whites didn't riot in the street. But it doesn't mean that most of us who are white men in America don't wonder what that means. They see the president as the head of a bureaucracy, and they are unsettled by the idea of having a black boss: How am I supposed to act? What am I supposed to do? Does that mean white people are losing power? The short answer is: Yeah, deal with it.

Your research links today to earlier populist movements in U.S. history. What fuels them?

For over 100 years--more like 150--you've had these movements, and they came out of the Civil War. It is a backlash against social liberalism and it's rooted in libertarian support for unregulated capitalism and white people holding onto power, and, if they see themselves losing it, trying to get it back.

For those even slightly skeptical about the narrative framing above, you'll want to bookmark three recent Jesse Walker pieces–"The Paranoids Are Out to Get Me!," "Medical Mosh Pits," and "Five Laws of the Crazy Tree"–and stay on the lookout for a longer examination of militia mythology, paranoid centrism, and government violence in the upcoming November October issue of Reason.

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  • ||

    Fuck them! F-U-C-K these sniveling cowards who can't weather a mere brushback pitch.

  • The Angry Optimist||

    If only we were so organized and menacing. The fact is that the Democratic Party, the party in full power, is getting drubbed by old people and "Ron Paul movement veterans" (thanks, Fluffy!)

    It is the intellectual bankruptcy of the powers-that-be that causes them to lash out in vicious terms, smearing the protestors in the most vile terms.

  • ||

    Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that no one's out to get you. :)

  • PR||

    Can anyone remember what happened the last time a left-winger brought a loaded rifle to display in public within sight of a John F. Kennedy presidential event?

  • mark||

    Yeah, this definitely looks like a case of being able to dish it out but not being able to take it.

  • ||

    Josh Marshall is a shitbag of the highest order. You missed the worst of that rant. He states

    "A simple review of the 1990s, particularly 1993, 1994, culminating in many respects in the tragic 1995 bombing of the Oklahoma City Federal building in April 1995 tells the tale."

    What violence occred in 1993 and 1994? I recall a bunch Islamist tried to blow up the WTC. Are they rightwing now? The FBI at the behest of Janet Reno burned a bunch of religous kooks to death on National TV. Is Reno rightwing? The FBI murdered Randy Weaver's family in 1992. Was that rightwing violence?

    The only rightwing terrorism I have seen in my lifetime is OKC. That is one act. In contrast there was a wave of left wing violence in the late 60s and 70s. And worse, the people responsible for it were welcomed into the mainstream left after it was over. What about the left's violence problem?

  • Tomcat1066||

    Once again we see how few people realize that fascims was a left wing ideology, rather than a right wing one. Hitler and FDR weren't as far apart ideologically as many would like to pretend.

  • ||

    I wish to joe pesci that someone would destroy the race drum that these douchebags insist on beating. IT ISN'T A RACIAL THING! FUCK ME

  • ||

    Also,

    If you read McVeigh's views on the Palistinians, the first Gulf War and the use of US power in the world, McVeigh would fit in with Marshall and his ilk better than he would on the Right.

    And what about the Unibomber? If the Right owns McVeigh, doesn't the left own him?

  • Abdul||

    For over 100 years--more like 150--you've had these movements, and they came out of the Civil War. It is a backlash against social liberalism and it's rooted in libertarian support for unregulated capitalism and white people holding onto power, and, if they see themselves losing it, trying to get it back.

    Uhhh, weren't the Democrats the party that supported secession, and opposed Reconstruction?

  • ||

    Before the election I said that elected Obama would do nothing for race relations because Obama's defenders would just cry racism as soon as people started criticizing him. I was told on every occasions how stupid that was and how dare I pretend to know how people were going to act. Sure enough, Obama's poll numbers go below 50% and we are now told that the great spector of racism has returned to America.

    It is just a sign of desparation. They know Obama is fucking up and the country is turning on him. So they figure they will at least invent a lie to explain why it is happening.

  • ||

    "For over 100 years--more like 150--you've had these movements, and they came out of the Civil War. It is a backlash against social liberalism and it's rooted in libertarian support for unregulated capitalism and white people holding onto power, and, if they see themselves losing it, trying to get it back."

    Since when was the KKK all about unregulated capitalism? To the extent that there was politcal violence in this country after the civil war, it was directed at blacks and foreigners and it was mostly over immigration and free trade. It makes me want to vomit that someone as historically ignorant as Marshall is taken seriously about anything.

  • ||

    I think a gamer expressions sums things up best.

    QQ

  • The Angry Optimist||

    all I know is, is that it is not libertarians who have been on these pages defending "temporary slavery". It has been leftists, through and through.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    Yeah. We libertarians are all about white people holding on to power. Don't you have to sign a pledge to white power to join the Libertarian Party?

    These stupid fucks are starting to get my dander up.

  • ||

    It is a backlash against social liberalism and it's rooted in libertarian support for unregulated capitalism and white people holding onto power,

    Art P.O.G., sir, do you concur?

  • Citizen Nothing||

    And I'm usually a "sit-back-and-enjoy-the-show" Menckenian.

  • PR||

    Lee Harvey Oswald was in favor of single payer.

  • Tacos mmm...||

    Once again we see how few people realize that fascims was a left wing ideology, rather than a right wing one. Hitler and FDR weren't as far apart ideologically as many would like to pretend.



    Seven posts, and the thread officially became shit.

    Of course, it'll still break 200.

  • The Angry Optimist||

    CN - I am a perpetually pissed-off individual, but this kind of half-baked, pseudointellectual smear campaign is so breathtakingly dishonest and just fucking infuriating that I have found reserves of rage I never knew existed.

  • ||

    Try reading a little history Tacos. I mean like actual history not the cartoon kind they gave you in high school. Fascism is a leftwing, anti-capitalist ideology. It is the otherside of the Janus head to Communism.

  • The Angry Optimist||

    Seven posts, and the thread officially became shit.



    Interesting - I wonder where your priorities are when you are presented with a coordinated campaign to call all opponent of the administration "racist haters" (and tying it to libertarianism!), and the only thing that gets you interested is the presentation of a controversial opinion.

    In other words, you see what's above the comments, but the only thing worth mentioning is a one-off comment to you?

  • ||

    AO,

    Don't get too angry. The Left is just writing the script for their own failure. They are starting to realize that Obama is going to crash and burn or at best have to tack right after the country gets a hold of Pelosi and Reid in the 2010 elections. Instead of thinking that perhaps they have made a mistake or that their ideas are not popular or even good, they have to have a reason to blame someone else. It wasn't that Obama wasn't the One. It is that the whole country is a bunch of racist rednecks who were manipulated by the evil Republicans and ended the last and best hope of America.

  • creech||

    I'm tired of being called a racist every time I disagree with something a person of color proposes. People who hurl such insults are themselves racists.

    I don't know anyone in the local Tea Party who advocates violence. They just can't wait for the 2010 elections to peacefully vote out those who believe they are entitled, by some superior moral authority, to redistribute the wealth and moral judgements of others.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    If our only hope is that the Republicans regain power, then there is no hope.
    Fuck.

  • PR||

    Seven posts, and the thread officially became shit.


    or if you read the post itself, about 4 lines in, the subjects of the post Godwin themselves.

  • Tomcat1066||

    "Seven posts, and the thread officially became shit."

    Refer to the first quote in the original post. I reponded to that. Agree, disagree, it doesn't matter.

    But at least grow a pair and dispute it.

  • Seward||

    It is a backlash against social liberalism and it's rooted in libertarian support for unregulated capitalism...

    Most (all?) libertarians do not support unregulated capitalism. Indeed, most libertarians think that capitalism requires some level of government regulation.

    Of course modern day liberals have as yet to solve any of the evils associated with significant government intervention into the economy. But I digress.

  • WWJGD||

    I could only make it 1/4th the way through the list of quotes before I gave up.

    Snippet-collection posts such as these are like Meatspin: It's a test to see how much you can tolerate before you snap and vomit/cry.

  • The Angry Optimist||

    I challenge Anette Fuentes to come to these pages and show her work that somehow demonstrates that white power movements and libertarianism are somehow tied.

    Right now, that conclusion is so astoundingly stupid that she must be intentionally lying.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    Tea Party...2010 elections...vote out...

    Heh heh heh.
    Good luck with that.

  • JB||

    Anyone who doesn't believe Obama when he says 2+2=5 is now crazy.

    Well, fine, I am crazy.

    So all you Obama zombies better watch out for this crazy person.

  • ||

    All politicians call their opponents un American and evil. It is what politicians do. The difference is that when Republicans do it, there is an entire media establishment and popular culture to call bullshit. When Democrats do it, there is an entire media establishment and popular culture establishment to bray right along with them.

  • ||

    Quotes like these make me want to vomit like an Olson twin after Thanksgiving dinner.

  • ||

    MikeM. posted this on another thread: Yeah, they truly believed they had a mandate to do whatever they want, and now they're discovering that they really don't, because the election was never a pro-socialism vote, it was about giving sorry-ass George Bush and the worthless Republican party a lesson.

    This, I think, is very accurate. Couple it with O'Reilly's assessment that Obama's lack of policy experience may be in play, and you have the current mess.

    The only question remaining is just how far is the MSM willing to go left to keep the dems in power? I think the media will provide the tipping point and it all points left for now.

  • Tacos mmm...||

    Try reading a little history Tacos. I mean like actual history not the cartoon kind they gave you in high school. Fascism is a leftwing, anti-capitalist ideology. It is the otherside of the Janus head to Communism.



    You can't shoehorn a lot of political movements into "left" and "right," the defitions of which change over time and are usually too simplistic. If you have libertarian leanings, you should know this, since classical liberalism was left-wing a few hundred years ago, and is a pretty poor fit anywhere now.

    Fascism is simimlar, drawing authoritarian elements from the left and right; this means than anyone on the political spectrum can use Nazi comparisons to smear an opponent. There's no meaningful information to be gained from the comparison, which is simply inflammatory.

    In other words, you see what's above the comments, but the only thing worth mentioning is a one-off comment to you?



    Godwin's law. It's pretty obvious that this thread is just going to be a lot of pissed off, politically impotent people venting with very little of substance to say. Maybe lonewhacker will even make an appearance, although it's too soon to say.

  • ||

    "Right now, that conclusion is so astoundingly stupid that she must be intentionally lying."

    She believes it. You have to understand people don't learn history anymore. They have no idea that things like the Davis Bacon Act were supported by the KKK. They have no idea that fascism was anti-capitalism. They don't know anything other than everything disagreeable in the world must be the result of unrestrained capitalism, which is really another way of saying everything bad in the world is the result of people having too much freedom.

  • The Angry Optimist||

    Tacos:

    The fact that you have nothing to say in response to the patently ridiculous and screamingly dishonest notion that "libertarians = white power advocates", and instead direct your attention to us "political impotents" (some of whom, through no-doubt shamanistic old-people magic, managed to derail a major policy initiative from a popular President) tells me that you're a fucker.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    people venting with very little of substance to say
    And tacos proves his very own point.

  • Xeones||

    Indeed, most libertarians think that capitalism requires some level of government regulation.

    The way things are now, yeah, "capitalists" and the government are pretty much symbiotes. This is why i advocate "free market" instead of "capitalism."

    Anyway, say what you want about the town hall protesters, they've gotten all the right people into a frothing, pants-shitting fit.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    And you didn't have to tell us that we're politically impotent, tacos.
    We've all known that for a long time...

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    Americans deserve vigorous debate on health care. But this, folks, simply isn't it. It's just rhetorical thuggery, and the last thing we need is a lynch mob mentality dominating this critical issue.

    If the "stimulus" debacle told us anything, it's that there was never going to be a vigorous debate on health care. Congress was going to pass what it was going to pass, and the only thing that stopped that was a speed bump in the form of "rhetorical thuggery".

  • mark||

    @ John

    If environmentalists haven't killed anyone yet, it's not for lack of trying (think arson, tree spiking, and organic farming).

  • ||

    "Fascism is simimlar, drawing authoritarian elements from the left and right; this means than anyone on the political spectrum can use Nazi comparisons to smear an opponent. There's no meaningful information to be gained from the comparison, which is simply inflammatory."

    Don't confuse labels for reality. Every political movement can be broken down on a spectrum from authoritarian control on one side and individual freedom on the other. Communism and fascism are both descended from feudalistic ideas of the proper rule is to be done by either one person or an elite. Libertarian or classical liberalism is the opposite of that and believed that individuals should rule themselves.

    On that spectrum FDR was a lot closer to the fascists than he was to Jefferson. Yes, FDR was not Hitler. He was not a genocidal lunatic. He was not a Nazi. But his economic policies were definitely a flavor of the authoritarian wing of the political spectrum.

  • JB||

    What's even better is how these liberals shit their panties when one guy shows up with an AR-15. When one black guy shows up with an AR.

    They have no clue what real rage will look like.

  • ||

    "Americans deserve vigorous debate on health care. But this, folks, simply isn't it. It's just rhetorical thuggery, and the last thing we need is a lynch mob mentality dominating this critical issue."

    Yeah that is why they want to shove a bill down the country's throat in a few months with no concer for any support from the other side. It is just because they want a vigorous debate.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    I'm hosting my very first Facebook flamewar. My Red and Blue facebook friends are going at it hammer and tong after I posted a link to CATO's healthcare reform page.
    Actually quite amusing, in a train-wreck sort of way...

  • Xeones||

    I'm hosting my very first Facebook flamewar.

    Man, i'm jealous. Maybe i'll rejoin the Facebook and try and start something...

  • Warty||

    they are getting direct mailings telling them to go to meetings and ask questions>

    LONEWACKO!!!!!!!!!!!


    frothing, pants-shitting fit.

    Racist.

  • Tacos mmm...||

    or if you read the post itself, about 4 lines in, the subjects of the post Godwin themselves.



    Excellent point. The thread was shit from the beginning.

  • hmm||

    Media works that would make Antonio Gramsci proud. Even if the media isn't mostly left, well at least that's what I'm told.

  • Ben Kenobi||

    "They see the president as the head of a bureaucracy, and they are unsettled by the idea of having a black boss"

    Really??? Are you kidding me? What kind of moron would make this assumption.

  • ||

    "and the growing influence of a movement which glorifies violence against African-Americans"


    are we just supposed to accept this? where? who? when?

    bs

  • ||

    ransom147,

    The evidence is how the rightwing keeps talking about the union thugs who beat up that black guy in St. Louis. They are just glorifying violence against black people.

  • Warty||

    These people are accidentally telling us a lot about themselves, and it's not too pretty.

  • Jonas||

    Watch the video of this RACIST scum who open-carried to an Obama town hall:

    http://www.infowars.com/man-exercising-open-carry-in-phoenix-explains-obamacare-theft-plain-and-simple/

  • Tacos mmm...||

    Don't confuse labels for reality. Every political movement can be broken down on a spectrum from authoritarian control on one side and individual freedom on the other. Communism and fascism are both descended from feudalistic ideas of the proper rule is to be done by either one person or an elite. Libertarian or classical liberalism is the opposite of that and believed that individuals should rule themselves.



    True, but you're moving the goalposts from when you originally called fascism a "left-wing" movment. "Left" and "Right" are not poles on the authoritarian spectrum to which you now refer; there are authoritarian movements from both the right and left. In fact, the original right-wing, from which the term is derived, were the assembly supporters of the French monarch.

    In modern parlance, "right" and "left" encompass a number of ideas, some of which on both sides are authoritarian, some of which are libertarian.

  • Seward||

    Tacos mmm...,

    Well, most Americans are politically impotent.

  • Jonas||

    And just in case my sarcasm wasn't evident in my earlier post (because it probably wasn't)... the man's black.

    Stockholm syndrome, surely. No black person could POSSIBLY oppose Barack Obama. They all think the same, don't they?

  • ||

    John:


    that's about all i can think of too.

    there was the kook that shot the doorman in dc, but the doorman could have just as easily been of another ethnicity.

  • Tim Cavanaugh||

    ...their heroes on Wall Street have left them to fester with rage in the dying church of new cars and new television sets, the true face of American fascism is emerging.

    Finally those capitalist pigs will pay for their crimes, eh? Eh, Comrades? Eh?

  • Jesse Walker||

    For a guy who started his career as an adherent of Enver Hoxha, Chip Berlet sure is quick to accuse other people of authoritarianism.

  • Seward||

    Tacos hmmm...,

    Fascism is one form of collectivism; as is communism, etc. Some forms of collectivism are better than others, but they are not individualistic in outlook (indeed, individualism is sort of a poison or a cancer according to most collectivists).

  • ||

    ransom,

    The Weekly Standard was next on that guy's list. He was just a nut. I don't think you can call him left or right.

  • BakedPenguin||

    For a guy who started his career as an adherent of Enver Hoxha...



    Wow. (Assuming that's not a joke) he even had to get his Maoism second hand.

  • Tacos mmm...||

    Fascism is one form of collectivism; as is communism, etc. Some forms of collectivism are better than others, but they are not individualistic in outlook (indeed, individualism is sort of a poison or a cancer according to most collectivists).



    Agreed. See my post above.

  • ||

    More evidence that the left is running scared. While some of these idiots may actually believe what they write, many are just trying whatever they can to smear the opponents of their dream legislation. To do my part, I will refrain from discussions about race to avoid giving them fuel for their claims. Though, since I believe Obama's a phony, my opposition to the Chicago machine's policies have nothing to do with race.

  • Tricky Prickears||

    John,

    How do you figure Kaczynski (Unabomber) to be the left's problem child?

    From his "Manifesto"


    6. Almost everyone will agree that we live in a deeply troubled society. One of the most widespread manifestations of the craziness of our world is leftism, so a discussion of the pychology of leftism can serve as an introduction to the discussion of the problems of modern society in general.


    The leftist is oriented toward largescale collectivism. He emphasizes the duty of the individual to serve society and the duty of society to take care of the individual. He has a negative attitude toward individualism. He often takes a moralistic tone. He tends to be for gun control, for sex education and other psychologically "enlightened" educational methods, for planning, for affirmative action, for multiculturalism. He tends to identify with victims. He tends to be against competition and against violence, but he often
    finds excuses for those leftists who do commit violence. He is fond of using the common catch-phrases of the left like "racism, " "sexism, " "homophobia, " "capitalism," "imperialism," "neocolonialism " "genocide," "social change," "social justice," "social responsibility." Maybe the best diagnostic trait of the leftist is his tendency to sympathize with the following movements: feminism, gay rights, ethnic rights, disability rights, animal rights political correctness. Anyone who strongly sympathizes with ALL of these movements is almost certainly a leftist. [36]

  • Rich||

    Jonas, he's obviously not *really* black.

  • ||

    John,

    i agree 100%... that's why i just called him a kook. just as in your example, it doesn't fit the supposed model...

    but we're just supposed to buy their line of crap.

  • The Angry Optimist||

    More from Fuentes/Berlet:

    Everyone who voted for Obama, it's time to step up. If people want change, they better get Obama's back.



    This is the triumph of ignorant optimism over reality. The fact is that some of the protesters likely voted for the current President, because the election was a referendum on the Bush Administration!. The election was not about Candidate Obama, it was about the outgoing President. To assume a "mandate" and say "where is the silent majority?" is to assume that the majority ever backed your candidate in the first place.

  • hmm||

    It's kind of odd to see an entire political party, assuming the majority of the media represents the party, play the race/racism card. Its almost as if they want a race issue to erupt.

  • ||

    Tricky,

    If you read the rest of his rantings, he is anti-technology and a radical environmentalist romantic. He hated technology and the modern world. He was a lot closer to the Sierra Club than anything else.

    In the end though, he is no one's problem child anymore than McVeigh was someone's problem child. They were both homocidal nuts. My point was not to smear the left with the unibomber. It was to point out the rediculousness of smearing oneside with the rantings of one nut.

  • Spartacus||

    So, Nina Burleigh wants what is "morally right" enshrined into law. At least she is up front about it.

    The only difference between her and the Taliban is in the details.

  • ||

    "This is the triumph of ignorant optimism over reality. The fact is that some of the protesters likely voted for the current President, because the election was a referendum on the Bush Administration!. The election was not about Candidate Obama, it was about the outgoing President. To assume a "mandate" and say "where is the silent majority?" is to assume that the majority ever backed your candidate in the first place."

    But they don't realize that. Don't you remember Joe on here the day after the election claiming it was 1932 all over again?

    I know a fair number of people who voted for Obama. MOst of them voted for him because they thought he was a centrist and a pragmatist and voting for him was a way to object to Bush and to hopefully send the country back to a kind of post 1994 Clinton centrism. They did not vote for him thinking he was from the far Left.

  • ||

    If anything bad were to ever happen to Obama, it would come from someone on his side of the aisle. They are the ones that are unhinged.

    It wouldn't be their fault, of course. It would be some right-wing, Caucasian, heterosexual, Southern male's fault. Somehow.

  • Seward||

    TAO,

    Well, the quote also assumes that one cannot change one's mind about the President's proposals; it also assumes (and that I think this is part of what you were getting at) that most voters knew what his proposals were. They didn't of course.

  • ||

    hmm:

    of course they do. that gives them the "moral highground" and distracts from the issues. who wants to have to spend all there time defending against charges of racism. it cripples you.

  • robc||

    I'm hosting my very first Facebook flamewar.

    Ive been involved in a few recently. A friend of mine said he had 6 different social circles responding to one of his health care links.

    Last night I called the public option immoral in a driveby. No other content to the post. There have been at least 5 responses to it so far but I havent read them yet. I think is will make me angry. Maybe this afternoon.

  • The Angry Optimist||

    I am pretty sure that my parents voted for the President, but they are SIVs on the occupations (they're agin' 'em). That does not mean that they support a massive takeover of the health care system.

  • ||

    "If anything bad were to ever happen to Obama, it would come from someone on his side of the aisle. They are the ones that are unhinged."

    God help us if someone ever takes a shot at him. Actually, if I were Obama that would make me nervous. He is worth more to them dead than alive. Alive is becoming a political albatross, the slow kid who can't speak without a teleprompter and can't bring Congress in line. Dead, he is a martyr. If Obama were to be killed and it could be blamed on the rightwing, the country would be so guilt ridden that the left could shove through anything they want. That thought wouldn't make me sleep well if I were Obama.

  • Assurances Maladies||

    "When one black guy shows up with an AR."

    I remember when the Black Pathers openly carried firearms in Oakland. Unfortunately, it led to strick gun laws.

    Man those Panthers were some real right-wing bastards.

    http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2006/Black-Panthers-Led8oct06a.jpg

  • ||

    Spartacus:

    but what's so bad about the moderate taliban, they're really just freedom fighters ya know.

  • Xeones||

    That thought wouldn't make me sleep well if I were Obama.

    It doesn't make me sleep well, either. "President Biden-" [throws up while weeping]

  • Fluffy||

    What the left can't get through its head is that many people have grown accustomed to the size of the modern state, but aren't prepared to see it move any further leftward.

    The frog in the pot is aware that it is a frog in a pot.

    Look at me: by the ideological standard I regularly assert here in my postings, I should be really, really bent out of shape with the current size of the state. [I mean, even more than I already am.] I should be out protesting daily. But I'm not, and the single biggest reason I'm not is because the overwhelming majority of the things that offend me in principle and in theory are of very long standing. They've been around so long that I essentially grew up with them permeating the atmosphere, and the things you grow up endurable are always more tolerable than novel experiences, even if the novel experiences build on what came before. For example, the Watergate era campaign finance "reforms" are just as offensive as McCain-Feingold, but because from my perspective the original campaign finance legislation has always "just been there", my emotional reaction to McCain-Feingold was much more severe.

    Obama's progressivism is much more salient to the "populist rage" out there than his race. Carter was a southern conservative Democrat in many ways, and Clinton deliberately disguised himself as a southern conservative Democrat via the DLC. Obama is the first progressive President in 40 years, and there are a lot of people who never expected to see another progressive President, and never expected to see new progressive policies that go farther than what we already have, and they aren't emotionally prepared to accept either.

  • The Angry Optimist||

    John, it would be wholly analogous to Kennedy.

    Kennedy::Obama
    LBJ::Biden
    1964 CRA::2009 Government Health Care Takeover

  • Spartacus||

    Yeah, they all just want to make sure everyone does what is morally right. For their own good, you know.

  • ||

    Exactly AO. And the Left has enough allies in the media to pull it off. Oswald was a leftwing pro castro nut who had defected to the Soviet Union. Yet, I bet 90% of the country, if you asked them, would tell you that the rightwing killed Kennedy. Also, if you talked to people who were there, they will tell you that Kennedy was not that popular while he was in office. His re-election prospects were 50/50 at best. The idea that it was Camalot and everyone loved him was invented after his death.

  • ||

    Crap like what is posted above, pisses me off. It's incredible to me that there are supposedly intelligent people who, through either willful ignorance or, complete blindness to anything that doesn't fit their pre-conceptions, can write such shit. If they were to actually have some cases to back their statements, I would just say they were just painting with too wide a brush. But as it is they're just completely making this shit up.

    I have no idea how many of you have been to any town halls or tea party rally's, but people there, at least in STL, have been normal everyday people. They've been from a wide spectrum of backgrounds, and counter to the hype, included non-whites. Honest news shows the union and acorn people being bused in, not the scary right-wingers. It tells of the few cases of violence and intimidation and provides accurate portrayals of who perpetrated it. If there are any cases of actual conservative or libertarian protesters initiating violence, I haven't seen it. Where is it MSM, show me!

  • Sean W. Malone||

    Citizen Nothing - I'd get in on your FB Flame War, but I'm getting so sick of them. Last night I got in a minor one even, and while there was (as usual) only 1 person who was interested in anything approaching a discussion, the majority of people were just saying shit like... "Socialism is t3h awezome!!"

    I did come up with one interesting new tactic though - Pre-emption of strawmen:

    "Here, let me save you some time;

    "I hate poor people"
    "I am in the pocket of Big Pharma & the insurance industry"
    "I am a dumb redneck Republican"... Read More
    "I watch Fox News too much"
    "I am racist and hate the president"

    There... Have fun."




    Some gems from the opposition include:
    "I actually do encourage you and your ilk to get a state of your own. It'll fail faster than Somalia, and it'll put a death to your silly ideology for at least century."

    and

    "Nor should the anti-socialists be allowed to use municipal water, utilities, roads, parks ; to buy or sell propery (which has to be registered with the state) ; to complain when they have no help when their money runs out ; to consume organic or other foods verified as safe to eat ; to complain about human rights abuses anywhere since it is the ... Read Moresocialist countries who tend to care more about those transgressions than the free-market ones ; to smoke/drink in public since that is shared (and hence socialised) air space ; to complain when they lose their insurance for pre-existing or excessive use ; to complain about overpopulation or resident aliens (legal or illegal) ; to complain that they are not making enough money because minimum wage is so low if they are too old to keep their job ; if they lose their job for being too old ..."

    Among others.

  • ||

    Actually AO, the Left blamed it on the far right from day one. I remember watching an interview with Dallas Cowboy great Bob Lilly about playing the Sunday after the Kennedy assasination. He talked about being in Clevland and how everyone assumed that since they were from Dallas they were Texas rightwing crazies who had just killed Kennedy.

  • The Angry Optimist||

    well, any smearing of the Dallas Cowboys is, by definition, deserved.

  • Xeones||

    Sean, reading those comments made me feel very tired and sad.

  • Warty||

    Sean, this is why you shouldn't talk politics with people who happen to be stupid.

  • ||

    Very true AO. But I kind of like Lilly and company that played in the late 60s and early 70s when they were always "next year's team". It was the later teams in the 70s when they started claiming to be America's team and all of that garbage when they became the focus of evil in the modern football world.

  • Tacos mmm...||

    What the left can't get through its head is that many people have grown accustomed to the size of the modern state, but aren't prepared to see it move any further leftward.



    I would say that libertarians have much more of a problem with this than the left. People have grown accustomed to the size of the modern state - and don't want it to shrink. All those grassroots protestors opposing Obama's healthcare initiative? You know, the ones so concerned about the growth of government?

    You just try touching their medicare drug benefit.

    This is not about the size of the government; it's about the gerontocracy making sure they get their pound of flesh.

  • Tony||

    All politicians call their opponents un American and evil. It is what politicians do. The difference is that when Republicans do it, there is an entire media establishment and popular culture to call bullshit. When Democrats do it, there is an entire media establishment and popular culture establishment to bray right along with them.



    Poor persecuted conservative.

  • Tacos mmm...||

    Oops.

    What the left can't get through its head is that many people have grown accustomed to the size of the modern state, but aren't prepared to see it move any further leftward.



    I would say that libertarians have much more of a problem with this than the left. People have grown accustomed to the size of the modern state - and don't want it to shrink. All those grassroots protestors opposing Obama's healthcare initiative? You know, the ones so concerned about the growth of government?

    You just try touching their medicare drug benefit.

    This is not about the size of the government; it's about the gerontocracy making sure they get their pound of flesh.

  • The Angry Optimist||

    well, Sean does frequently engage MNG and Tony-bot, so maybe he is just a masochist.

    Though why X puts up with you, Warty, I'll never know. Is the sex that good, X?

  • Warty||

    John, Cleveland was a little more uppity back when the Browns were good.

  • Froggie||

    The frog in the pot is aware that it is a frog in a pot.

    Not after the water's boiled off.

  • Mad Max||

    'When economically stressed and frightened people are anxious and sullen, you never know who will capture their fears and hopes.'

    Remember:

    You're emotional, I'm passionate.

    You're anxious and fearful, I have valid concerns.

    You're ideological, I'm an idealist.

    You're rigid and inflexible, I'm a principled fellow who refuses to sell out.

    You're manipulated by politicians and special interests, I support our country's leaders and I have their back.

  • ||

    Wow, Sean, Wish I had been there to respond to that longer pasted post. That's a gem! Course he could have made it more concise by simply stating that if one is anti-socialist, they have no right to exist. Seriously? I can't even share public air? Wow, just wow! Some people are unbelievably dense.

  • Warty||

    TAO, be nice, or I'll coat you in Crisco and lock you in a room with Tony.

  • JB||

    They did not vote for him thinking he was from the far Left.

    Then they were ignorant and not paying attention. Sure Obama lied and campaigned and said he was a moderate, but anyone who believes a politician is stupid. Even in many of Obama's ads (specifically some of the radio ads), it was easy to spot how Leftist he was.

  • Tacos mmm...||

    Actually AO, the Left blamed it on the far right from day one. I remember watching an interview with Dallas Cowboy great Bob Lilly about playing the Sunday after the Kennedy assasination. He talked about being in Clevland and how everyone assumed that since they were from Dallas they were Texas rightwing crazies who had just killed Kennedy.



    My mother lived in Alabama at the time and remembers people cheering the news of his assasination, so those suspicions were not completely unhinged.

  • mark||

    Shut the fuck up Tony.

    Damn! That feels good! I had no idea...

  • Xeones||

    Is the sex that good, X?

    You've got me confused with Naga. Ask him about that. I'm the one who has sworn a blood feud on Warty.

  • ||

    Brilliant Mad Max.

  • Tomcat1066||

    Sean: Did the writer of that last tidbit eat paint chips as a kid? Honestly, that's one of the dumbest things I've ever read in my entire life. In fact, we are all dumber for having read it. I award them no points, and my God have mercy on their soul.

  • ||

    "Then they were ignorant and not paying attention. Sure Obama lied and campaigned and said he was a moderate, but anyone who believes a politician is stupid. Even in many of Obama's ads (specifically some of the radio ads), it was easy to spot how Leftist he was."

    They were totally ignorant. And don't think I don't remind them of that. But most people don't pay that much attention beyond getting the general gist of things from the MSM. And the MSM spent the entire election cycle acting as an arm of the Obama campaign saying what a centrist and great guy he was.

  • JB||

    Sean, this is why you shouldn't talk politics with people who happen to be stupid.

    It's stupid to talk politics with zombies. There is only one thing you do with zombies.

  • ||

    JB,

    Many of them were also convinced that McCain was a far right radical free market conservaitve. No shit. They actually beleive that.

  • Tacos mmm...||

    Then they were ignorant and not paying attention. Sure Obama lied and campaigned and said he was a moderate, but anyone who believes a politician is stupid. Even in many of Obama's ads (specifically some of the radio ads), it was easy to spot how Leftist he was.



    That's because to a partisan, no one is EVER moderate. If they're to the right of you, they're right wing. If they're to the left, they're left-wing.

    Over at Daily Kos, for example, Obama doesn't seem to be left-wing enough.

    That means he fits my definition of moderate - too liberal for the right wing, not liberal enough for the left wing.

  • ||

    I'll coat you in Crisco

    Oh noes! Teh TRANSFATS!

  • ||

    JB:

    it was easy to spot. but you gotta remember, this guy pandered to every group around and contradicted himself every time he turned around.

    people swallowed what they wanted and ignored the res. as stated before, that's what happens when people are voting against a guy who isn't even running. voting is viewed only as a right, and the civic duty of being informed is long gone. and of course ya just can't outlaw stupid...

  • The Angry Optimist||

    John, Cleveland was a little more uppity back when the Browns were good.



    Ahh, back in the halcyon days of Hizzoner Locher, Romanian quasi-fascist and hater of rock concerts.

  • ||

    JB, I don't remember hearing a moderate candidate. I heard him say he was going to reform healthcare, fix the economy by shoveling truckloads of money into job creation and infrastructure, turn around the environment by punishing Big Oil and throwing huge sums of money into green tech and green jobs and fix wall street by spanking those damned greedy corporations. He ran as a far leftist's wet dream.
    The folks were so busy hating Bush vicariously through McCain that they didn't get out the calculator when Obama was singing "It's a Small World."

  • ||

    TRANSFATS = there really aint no shit free as this shit?

  • Tony||

    Obama is a mainstream progressive philosophically and a pragmatist politically. If you're shocked by this then you're an idiot who doesn't pay attention.

  • ||

    Shut the fuck up Tony

  • ||

    You know why I get to use the roads and utilities and the air? Because I paid for them, you little hippie shit. Go back to your volunteer work at the domestic partner violence prevention center and STFU.

  • The Angry Optimist||

    Tony-bot, you need to update your livejournal.

  • ||

    Hmm, I haven't had time to read all the comments yet, but I have to say that the lugubrious combination of pants-wetting and bitter condescension from the left-wing punditry is pathetic, yet hilarious.

    I can't wait to see what heights it will reach. I'm betting on some analogue of "we need to start arresting people".

  • ||

    You just don't get it Sugerfree. Paying taxes is not good enough. Letting the governemnt rob you of 50% of your income doesn't get you shit. You are only entitled to government services if you love the government.

  • ||

    Uh, NutraSweet, Tony is a sockpuppet, in case I haven't mentioned that like 20 times.

    You're sick, dude--you're seeing things that aren't there!

  • EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy||

    Most (all?) libertarians do not support unregulated capitalism. Indeed, most libertarians think that capitalism requires some level of government regulation.



    I think you may speak to strongly on the behalf of others, Steward. Libertarians recognize the need for some entity or social arrangement that can (1) enforce contracts, (2) protect property, and (3) prevent the use of violence in lieu of persuasion.

    A governmental entity like the ones we know today ought to be able to achieve these ends, but that does not equate to "regulation" as I understand the word. Nor does it *require* a government per se, though I don't really believe in any of the alternatives I've heard of.

    Large scale commerce almost certainly requires a regulatory ecosystem, but government may or may not be involved in that. Think UL, Lloyd's of London, and Southerbys. It remains to be seen to what extent this approach can be leveraged up in scale.

  • ||

    Imagine what it is going to be like when the Dems get shallacked in 2010?

  • Tacos mmm...||

    it was easy to spot. but you gotta remember, this guy pandered to every group around and contradicted himself every time he turned around.



    Politicians always pander to everyone, and always tell people what they want to hear. It's a given, and certainly not a unique attribute of the current president.

  • ||

    The guy with the AR-15 outside of the VFW event was part of a staged event for radio libertarian talk show host Ernest Hancock.

    Hancock (amongst other things) is a defender of the Viper Militia fellas back in the mid 90s.

    The Viper Militia is not without its defenders here, one of whom, Ernest Hancock, said in an interview today that the videotape cited by the Government was purely "educational."

    Mr. Hancock, a Libertarian Party candidate for the Arizona House of Representatives, said he was a friend of two of the group's leaders -- Mr. Pleasant and Mr. Walker. "There isn't any criminal activity here," he said. "They aren't going out bombing anything, or planning to do so. Their crime is educating other people.

    "It's almost a hobby for these guys. They go out and blow up rocks in the desert and shoot their guns. They have been doing this for years. This is no secret."



    Source

  • Citizen Nothing||

    too liberal for the right wing, not liberal enough for the left wing.
    So tacos, by your definition, Bush is a moderate too, no?

  • Citizen Nothing||

    arg.

  • Wicks Cherrycoke||

    For the record, flag@whitehouse.gov, the "rat on your neighbors" email address for reporting "fishy" stories on health care, has been taken off line. It lasted about a week longer than I thought it would.

  • Tomcat1066||

    You are only entitled to government services if you love the government.

    Unfortunately, this is the kind of thinking a lot of people actually have. I've been told that if I don't support socialism, then I had better not call the fire department if my home catches on fire.

    Functioning within the current system while opposing it's structure is to complicated for these types to actually understand. They would rather hand wring and bask in the glory that is The Big "O" and pretend that all will remain right with the world.

    They forget that their boys and girls won't always be calling the shots.

  • robc||

    Epi,

    Uh, NutraSweet, Tony is a sockpuppet, in case I haven't mentioned that like 20 times.


    Of who?

  • ||

    Epi,

    I was responding to the retard that Sean quoted.

  • Tacos mmm...||

    So tacos, by your definition, Bush is a moderate too, no?



    Actually, yes, I consider him center-right. I consider Obama center-left.

  • ||

    Here's Hancock's latest blog post about the incident.

  • ||

    The left's reaction is rather sickening, but it is also oh-so-predictable.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    They forget that their boys and girls won't always be calling the shots.
    Citation needed.

  • ||

    "The guy with the AR-15 outside of the VFW event was part of a staged event for radio libertarian talk show host Ernest Hancock." -

    from that perspective they're all staged. otherwise they would have to be completely spontaneous. that is truly a rare town hall that happens on accident.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    And I agree with you, tacos.
    Obama/Bush in 2012! makes a lot of sick, twisted sense.

  • robc||

    I consider Obama center-left.

    I would consider him left. The wingnuts are far-left. Specter is center-left. Or maybe Bush. Or Gingrich.

  • Rich||

    They did not vote for him thinking he was from the far Left.

    FTFY. It was about *hoping*, remember?

  • ||

    I was responding to the retard that Sean quoted.

    Folks, he's sicker than we thought! Call 911!

  • Citizen Nothing||

    Hey, Obama/Bush 2012! offers creeping socialism, endless war and xenophobia! Something for everyone, even LoneWacko!

  • ||

    CN,

    We already have that. You have all of Bush's foreign policy with Obama's domestic policy. It was Obama/Bush in 2008. We just didn't know it.

  • ||

    Of who?

    Leading candidates are Cesar/Edward, joe, or Dan T.

    You can make him mad, so I don't think it's joe. And frankly, joe's writing style and egomania would be hard to mask behind a puppet. joe was here for the glorification of joe and nothing else.

    Tony tells brazen lies and refuses to back them up, much like Dan T. and they write the same. But I don't feel it in my gut.

    I don't know about Cesar. It could be him, but I'm not sure.

    Either way, he's either a performance or a bad faith troll. I'm fine ignoring him either way.

  • Distaff||

    Obama/Bush in 2012!

    Michelle/Laura?

  • ||

    Joe was too much of an ego maniac to sock puppet.

  • ||

    Leading candidates are Cesar/Edward, joe, or Dan T.

    I'd like to think that maybe we have a new trollmeister around here. Cesar can't be everyone.

  • Xeones||

    Uh, Sweet'n'Low, check the link to Tony's livejournal that TAO posted upthread. He may actually be a real person! I, for one, am shocked and saddened.

  • Tricky Prickears||

    John,

    Kaczynski was an isolationist. He blamed all of society's problems on the Left. He believed Industrialization was a tool used by the Left. Which is what played into his Environmentalism. Not The Sierra Club. His ideologies were about as far right as you can get. Even further than McVeigh. But agreed, to blame Right Wing ideology for his behavior, is like blaming pornography for the behavior of serial rapist.


    I don't see Obama as a Leftist. I see him, as many Americans do, as a clone of GWB. This whole health care issue is about his Mother. And I'm beginning to believe it meant to be nothing more than a distraction to the other issues at hand and what the government is really doing behind closed doors and under our noses. Just more "busy work" for the MSM.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    SF - that's why I don't like folks here conflating Tony with MNG and Neu Mejican.

  • The Angry Optimist||

    you all do know that, at one point, Tony was a real person?

  • Citizen Nothing||

    Now Tony's just a borganism.

  • T||

    Why can't Tony be whatever we want him to be? I think he's an armadillo with excellent typing skills.

  • ||

    Uh, Sweet'n'Low, check the link to Tony's livejournal that TAO posted upthread. He may actually be a real person!

    Didn't Cesar create a fake right-wing blog for Neil? So a livejournal doesn't mean much. Though it might point to Cesar again. That man had dedication.

  • ||

    If it's Cesar, he's been setting this one up for about 3 years. Yup. I read that far back I think.

  • ||

    Episiarch,

    Yes he can. He can be everyone but me.

  • T||

    He can be everyone but me.

    Which is exactly what you would say if you were sock-puppeteering.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    He's a floor wax and a dessert topping!

  • ||

    that's why I don't like folks here conflating Tony with MNG and Neu Mejican.

    I adore arguing with Neu, but his contrarian stance does not make him one of the board liberals. Like me, he would rather argue how people have said things more than what they have said. But he does betray his left leaning by almost never calling out the leftists on the board, even when they are as sloppy or sloppier with their arguments.

    MNG and Tony shouldn't be conflated, but what they believe is not wildly divergent, so it will be hard for most people to keep them separate. The same bankrupt and inhuman "philosophy" known as utilitarianism corrupts their moral center to its very core. Where as Tony is a fake, MNG's realness makes him much more frightening and pitiable.

  • ||

    You guys are missing it. Tony is Lonewhacko's sock puppet.

  • ||

    Tony is your father, Luke.

    Listen to me everybody!!! Tony is made from people!!!!

    Tony is a sled.

  • ||

    you all do know that, at one point, Tony was a real person?

    Sure, the old Tony did more than parrot whatever talking point was on Salon or NPR on a particular day. But we either drove him crazy, he was co-opted by a spoofer, or he's a bad faith piece of shit. I don't really care either way.

    Reason won't keep him from tracking in dog shit on his shoes and getting it everywhere, but that doesn't mean we have to smear it around trying to clean it up either.

  • ||

    Now let's not call anyone a NAZI here, lest anyone find its meaning. "A member of the NAtional SocialZIst party". And of course we all should be for National Socialized Medicine lest we be called evil names. But here in America we don't have main stream Socialist, just Progressives.

  • The Angry Optimist||

    Seriously, SF, thank you - it is time for bannination. The banhammer. We needses it.

  • Xeones||

    But we either drove him crazy, he was co-opted by a spoofer, or he's a bad faith piece of shit.

    I like to think it was the first option, though that's not mutually exclusive with the third one.

  • The Angry Optimist||

    Now let's not call anyone a NAZI here, lest anyone find its meaning. "A member of the NAtional SocialZIst party".



    That isn't where the term "Nazi" comes from, you dolt. "Nazi" comes from the fact that, in German, "National" is pronounced "Nazional"

  • Citizen Nothing||

    No banhammer. No.

  • T||

    But here in America we don't have main stream Socialist, just Progressives.

    To-mah-to, to-may-to.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    Except for AO. He needs to be reminded who's in charge every now and then...

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    Art P.O.G., sir, do you concur?

    Oh, of course. ;) And why am I always showing up late to threads? I blame racism.

  • ||

    Anyway,

    If the anger at these townhalls is all about race as the lefty writers have indicated, why no racial slurs and why are people yelling at white Congressmen and Senators and citing actual text from the health care bill? Why are black men being beaten by union thugs? Why are black men open carrying just like white men?

    I think it will just drive independents away from supporting the Dems just like evangelism and pre-emptive war drove people away from voting for the GOP.

  • Warty||

    What we need is better trolls. I, personally, want a troll who trolls in iambic pentameter.

    we ARE luCKY the PRESiDENT does NOT
    pay ATTenTION to WINGnuts LIKE you FUCKS.
    he EARNED this POLiticAL caPITAL, assHOLES.

  • ||

    No banning. Having crazy motherfuckers here makes this place even better.

    And Tony has always been an obvious troll--he pushes buttons like a elevator operator--but recently he has gotten less sophisticated.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    John, Cleveland was a little more uppity back when the Browns were good.

    The '60s? I think you're right.

  • ||

    And why am I always showing up late to threads? I blame racism.

    I thought the chip on your shoulder was so heavy it made your Internet hand numb most of the day.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    You still in C'bus A-POG?
    Maybe you and me and AO need to organize a little Reason-style happy-hour shindig of our own.
    We could maybe even drag Gillespie up I-71 out of that Cincy-area hellhole he calls home.

    My liberal and conservative friends are suckin' the life outta me.

  • The Angry Optimist||

    I think Art has been temporarily relocated to sunny Baghdad. But, IIRC, he's from Reynoldsburg, which technically counts as Columbus, if you're willing to eschew loyalty to Fairfield County.

  • ||

    To be clear, I'm not calling for bannination. I think a good ole' fashion shunning will do the trick.

    And troll spotting is easy. If you can't make them mad, then they probably aren't real.

  • Warty||

    Jim Brown ran for 1800 yards in 1963, Art, and the Browns won the NFL title the next year. And then their glorious history of winning continued unabated until this very day.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    I think it will just drive independents away from supporting the Dems just like evangelism and pre-emptive war drove people away from voting for the GOP.

    One could only hope so.

    And Tony has always been an obvious troll--he pushes buttons like a elevator operator--but recently he has gotten less sophisticated

    I think it's (licks lips) all part of the plan. He wants us to speculate as to the reason.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    Columbus, Baghdad. It's all good.

  • Kyle Jordan||

    "Imagine what it is going to be like when the Dems get shallacked in 2010?"

    Don't get too far ahead of yourself here John. My faith in the American people tells me that their stupidity runs far deeper than one can imagine. Just look at the snippets Welch quoted.

    And no ban for Tony. The village needs idiots.

  • Xeones||

    Count me as another one against bannination.

    First they banned the anonymity bots,
    and i did not speak up, for i was not an anonymity bot.

    Then they banned the AntiMexicanRacists,
    and i did not speak up, for i was not an AntiMexicanRacist...

  • ||

    Honestly though, I defy anyone here to try to sock puppet the reasonable left position these days and not end up sounding like Tony. Just try it. Tony is not a troll. He is just an example of how your typical Kos poster thinks.

  • ||

    And your typical leftwing beltway journalist for that matter.

  • Assurances Maladies||

    Il est doué de douche brun si vous me le demander.

  • Warty||

    What, if anything, is grounds for bannination around here? Certainly not personal attacks, or racism, or swearing, or having a faggy Greek handle, or anything that would get you booted from a civilized site.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    You still in C'bus A-POG?

    I expect to be back in Columbus by Columbus Day or maybe Halloween. I love your idea, BTW.

    I thought the chip on your shoulder was so heavy it made your Internet hand numb most of the day.

    :::shakes fist at Sugarfree. :D

  • The Angry Optimist||

    Warty - I was banned for sockpuppeting lonewacko. In the post, I put up his real name and address.

  • ||

    the Browns won the NFL title the next year. And then their glorious history of winning continued unabated until this very day.

    Continuing in Baltimore, that is.

  • robc||

    Why ban when incif exists?

  • ||

    What, if anything, is grounds for bannination around here?

    TAO got banned for posting the whois info for LoneWacko, on the grounds that it was "personal information", which is not true as whois is freely available. I'm not sure who banned him--I was under the impression it was Julian Sanchez, but that may have been someone else--and I don't think they are editors any more. No one else, that we know of, has been banned in a long time.

  • ||

    "What, if anything, is grounds for bannination around here? Certainly not personal attacks, or racism, or swearing, or having a faggy Greek handle, or anything that would get you booted from a civilized site."

    Xenoes and Pro Liberate please call your office. Yes, Pro Liberate is a faggy Latin handle, but close enough. Faggy Greek handle. That is funny.

  • ||

    Epi,

    Some guy whose handle I forget got banned for calling Kerry Howley a slut by implication. Howley had on of those "being a slut and an whore is beautiful but I wouldn't be one" threads. And some guy called her out on it. It got him banned. If forget his name though.

  • Assurances Maladies||

    "What, if anything, is grounds for bannination around here? Certainly not personal attacks, or racism, or swearing, or having a faggy Greek handle, or anything that would get you booted from a civilized site."

    If you use the n-word with impunity, they ban your ass.

  • ||

    I will eventually be banned for sock puppeting myself.

  • ||

    John:
    " He is just an example of how your typical Kos poster thinks."


    thinks?

  • Warty||

    Fuck you, Johnny Longtorso. Fuck you and fuck your entire family. That should be fucking grounds for bannination right fucking there, fuckface. Go fuck yourself.

  • Xeones||

    Shut the fuck up, Warty and John.

  • Assurances Maladies||

    But you can plagiarize like Suderman all day long.

  • ||

    Go fuck yourself.

    ...and post the results on YouTube?

  • Mad Max||

    It's not surprising that Nina Burleigh is willing to go to great lengths to combat the insidious influence of the Right.

    In 1998, she told the Washington Post she'd be willing to give President Bill Clinton a 'blowjob' in gratitude for keeping abortion legal.

    Burleigh explained in the Huffington Post that by making this remark, she had simply been striking a blow (so to speak) against the White Male Oppressors:

    'Those unfamiliar with my sarcastic remark need only google my name and the word blowjob.

    'I said it (back in 1998, but a good quote has eternal life) because I thought it was high time for someone to tweak the white, middle-aged beltway gang taking Clinton to task for sexual harassment. These men had neither the personal experience nor the credentials to know sexual harassment when they saw it, nor to give a good goddamn about it if they did. The insidious use of sexual harassment laws to bring down a president for his pro-female politics was the context in which I spoke.'

    And I have no doubt that white, middle aged male oppressors everywhere were duly put in their place.

  • Warty||

    Longtorso, that's you in the video of the horse fucking the guy, isn't it? You disgust me.

  • ||

    Some guy whose handle I forget got banned for calling Kerry Howley a slut by implication.

    OK, that was the Sanchez banning. So I don't know who banned TAO.

  • Assurances Maladies||

    "And I have no doubt that white, middle aged male oppressors everywhere were duly put in their place."

    Well I would hope that a wise, white, middle aged male oppressor with the richness of his experience...

  • ||

    Posting as Johnny Longtorso, who is posing as Warty, who is sock puppeting Xeones, who is posing as Johnny Longtorso, I believe that if a commenter isn't more offensive than the quotes in the OP, he/she/it shouldn't be banned.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    But you can plagiarize like Suderman all day long.

    Ooh. Casting aspersions. That's a novel way to tempt the banhammer (although I think Chris Kelly would've been banned already were this sort of thing enough).

  • ||

    Clearly I'm a bit new to posting here, but I assumed this was essentially an un-moderated forum. It's actually a bit refreshing, even though I am likely much more on the prude end of the spectrum than the majority of the people here. I am significantly of the opinion that banning the likes of Tony is the wrong thing to do. From what I've seen, he hasn't said anything worthy of a ban, even on a more civilized site. That is unless we want to enforce some sort of standard of coherence, which would be ironic.

  • ||

    That is unless we want to enforce some sort of standard of coherence, which would be ironic.

    Like a black fly in your Chardonnay, while being s---l f----d?

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    Johnny Longtorso used to go by a different handle, IIRC. Although, if I'm wrong, please correct me, Johnny.

  • ||

  • ||

    I've changed handles more than once. Not to sock puppet, just to lower my google footprint (and on a whim, if I hadn't posted in a while and aren't 100% sure what my 'current' handle is).

  • Sean W. Malone||

    Okkkkkkkkkay.... I'm back. what did I miss?

    TAO may have a point about my intellectual masochism. I also regularly engage Chad on here. Though as I discovered that he's about the most evil human on the planet, I'm giving up on that.

    I have more lovely bits from that Facebook "conversation" though:

    "If we just established ... Read Morea non-profit single payer plan, we would cut healthcare spending AND provide universal healthcare...too bad McCarthyism still lingers in the right wing"



    "Yes, a free world filled with plague and disease and savagery because no one was looking out for the common defense keeping the enemies of civilization at bay.

    Paying taxes is a shit thing, but it beats living in a fiefdom."




    And even a tiny bit of honesty:

    "This link just seems to be anti societal. If you think freedom brings out the best in people then you are indeed an honorable fellow. I am not so brave. I think that even a new government could and more importantly WOULD do worse."

  • Warty||

    That is unless we want to enforce some sort of standard of coherence, which would be ironic.

    Misuse of the word ironic is a bannable offense.

  • PR||

    unban Jersey McJones!

  • Assurances Maladies ||

    "Ooh. Casting aspersions."

    I found the following post from yesterday to be creepy. You be the judge as to whether Peter "Joe Biden" Suderman is a plagiarist or just lazy:
    ______________________________________________

    Enough About Palin | August 18, 2009, 4:35pm | #

    From The Weekly Standard (@ 11:49 am)

    Politico reports that liberals are in "full revolt" against White House signals that the so-called "public option" is negotiable. Bob Herbert - yes, Bob Herbert - has an angry column in today's Times in which he writes that the White House has been "rolled" and that the emerging Obama health reform leaves the "public interest ... behind." In the Post, Eugene Robinson - yes, Eugene Robinson - writes that "we didn't elect Obama to be an expedient president. We elected him to be a great one." (Speak for yourself, Gene.) Unbelievably, Jon Stewart is also mad at the president.

    Frome Suderman:

    Indeed, many on the left seem sickened by the show: Congressional liberals are threatening revolt if reform doesn't include a government-administered plan. Eugene Robinson is not pleased with Obama's politically-driven decisions: "Giving up on the public option might be expedient. But we didn't elect Obama to be an expedient president. We elected him to be a great one." Even Jon Stewart is ribbing Obama for not doing enough to maintain order and push the complete liberal reform agenda through.

    Seems like plagerism to me.
    ________________________________________-

  • Solanum||

    I believe Radley threatened to ban someone (Dave W?) for posting as Radley.

  • ||

    Where's Reinmoose?

  • Assurances Maladies ||

    It made me wonder how much of what I read here is lifted from somewhere else.

  • ||

    Thanks Sugerfree. That wasn't the thread that got that guy banned. He was banned for another thread. But he was on there talking about how he was banned. Frankly, I am surprised they didn't ban me. I really pushed Howley's buttons in that thread.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    How is it plagiarism if you're both quoting a third party. I'm sorry, the structure of those two paragraphs are not similar enough for me to do a double take. Although maybe he could've given EAP a hat tip.

    DISCLAIMER: This post was lifted, almost verbatim, from Feministing.

  • ||

    Faggy Greek

    This is redundant. No?

  • ||

    Dammit. My mind reads that as "fisting" every time.

  • ||

    My mind reads that as "fisting" every time.

    Only because you're a racist.

  • Zorba||

    "This is redundant. No?"

    Up yours!

  • ||

    Prety much Ben, pretty much.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    Or they could've independently arrived at the same conclusion, or it could be cryptomnesia. You need more proof!

  • ||

    Where's Reinmoose?

    SHHHH! Don't give it away, you fool!

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    This is redundant. No?

    You fool! You'll anger Yanni!

    DISCLAIMER: This post was lifted, almost verbatim, from the Gettysburg Address.

  • Assurances Maladies||

    I think he red the Weekly Standard piece, cropped it and then claimed it as his own.

    What are the odds that the last sentence of each paragraph would be so similar?

  • ||

    Thank to you all for making me laugh on such a ridiculous day!

    Carry on.

    Don't ban me.

  • hmm||

    Warty | August 19, 2009, 1:20pm | #
    That is unless we want to enforce some sort of standard of coherence, which would be ironic.

    Misuse of the word ironic is a bannable offense.



    Well isn't that ironic.

  • ||

    Well isn't that ironic.

    Like 10,000 spoons when all you need is a knife.

  • ||

    I carry several knives all the time. None are very sharp.


    I guess I'm consistent.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    brotherben,

    Would you say that if the cops stopped you, all they'd find on you were knives and lint?

  • The Ghost of Jorge Luis Borges||

    It made me wonder how much of what I read here is lifted from somewhere else.

    It *all* is.

  • ||

    Would you say that if the cops stopped you, all they'd find on you were knives and lint?

    I can't kill brotherben, he's too much fun. :-)

  • The Angry Optimist||

    FWIW, and without knowledge, the author of the post where I was banned was Radley Balko. I never received an explanation from anybody as to why, however.

  • ||

    Art, my wife does let me keep any spare change I find.(she holds the folding money, says it's for my own good)

  • hmm||

    FWIW, and without knowledge, the author of the post where I was banned was Radley Balko. I never received an explanation from anybody as to why, however.

    It was Balko! He's a secret admin nazi. Look at him, short blond hair, blue eyes beady eyes, an obsession with authoritarian police, an interest in mind altering drugs, it's all there!!!

  • ||

    When economically stressed and frightened people are anxious and sullen, you never know who will capture their fears and hopes.

    Perhaps they are just bitter and clinging to their guns and religion.

  • hmm||

    Art, my wife does let me keep any spare change I find.(she holds the folding money, says it's for my own good)

    You think that's bad? Mine admitted to putting change in the couch so I would get excited when looking for the remote.

  • The Angry Optimist||

    What's funny about my ban is that it didn't keep a lid on the very public information about Chris Kelly. We routinely use his name now.

  • ||

    "FWIW, and without knowledge, the author of the post where I was banned was Radley Balko. I never received an explanation from anybody as to why, however."

    Fucking A, Radley is worse than the cops. He did the internet equivelent of locking you up for 48 hours only to release you without charges being filed or giving further comment.

  • Xeones||

    Fucking A, Radley is worse than the cops. He did the internet equivelent of locking you up for 48 hours only to release you without charges being filed or giving further comment.

    Did he shoot TAO's virtual dog too?

  • The Angry Optimist||

    Yes, yes he did! My poor Corgi!

  • ||

    Quit your crying AO. That little bastard was a threat to Radley's safety. He had to pump 15 rounds into its body. It was him or the corgi. Those things are vicous, especially the pembrokes. Don't you know the Pembroke Welsh Corgi is the preferred security dog for the Welsh drug gangs?

  • ||

    If it was Radley that killed the Gigapets, I salute him.

  • ||

    Those Welsh ergot cartels are ruthless I tell ya. Ruthless.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    If it was Radley that killed the Gigapets, I salute him.

    I don't know about the Gigapets, but it wouldn't surprise me if there's a bloated Pikachu corpse in his septic tank.

  • ||

    ergot cartels? like rainbow kids?

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    Er, carcass, as it were.

  • ed||

    When economically stressed and frightened people are anxious and sullen, you never know who will capture their fears and hopes

    Indeed, when I took an old song and updated the video with topical political imagery, I became a racist overnight! Not that it isn't gratifying to rouse the rabble from time to time.

  • ||

    When economically stressed and frightened people are anxious and sullen, you never know who will capture their fears and hopes

    Capturing them, of course, is only exploitation if their political opponents do it.

  • ed||

    Capturing them is just the beginning. You have to process them, ship them to their new home, acclimate them to their new masters...whoops! I did it again!

  • JB||

    Here's the Kerry thread you are thinking of.

    That's a classic thread.

  • Fluffy||

    I think people don't know what the word "plagiarism" actually means.

    They apparently also don't know what the word "crop" means.

    It's not plagiarism to read something and then rewrite the same content in your own words. That's called "research". It's only "plagiarism" if you quote something word for word without attribution. The only parts that match up word-for-word are the Eugene Robinson quotes, and of course if two articles are accurately quoting a third party they will match word-for-word.

    Also, you "crop" something when you shorten it and post a portion of it. So if he had taken the Standard paragraph and posted the first half of it, that would be "cropping". The word you're looking for is "paraphrasing".

  • ||

    I went numb back in March. My eyes glazed over in May. At this point in time there's nothing the Left can do to get a rise out of me. Other than flashing their tits.

  • ||

    "Here's the Kerry thread you are thinking of.

    That's a classic thread."

    Actually it is pretty good. There are some good arguments put fourth by a lot of people on that thread, except for Howley who is just annoying.

  • ed||

    Brandybuck | August 19, 2009, 4:23pm | #

    there's nothing the Left can do to get a rise out of me. Other than flashing their tits


    Their tits are overrated.




  • ||

    ed,

    Aaaah. My eyes. I need some bleach.

  • ||

    Latin and Greek the same thing? I think not.

  • ||

    Flyover Country,

    That's nothing. Urkobold recently posted a woman nursing a monkey. My eyes are still burning from that image.

  • The Libertarian Guy||

    ed, HUGE kudos for "Democrat Fluff Boy".

    Has the IRS audited you yet?

  • B||

    "And yet, when one considers the availability of firearms to protesters with an angry narrative of victimization, and the growing influence of a movement which glorifies violence against African-Americans, one can hardly avoid a sense of foreboding."


    Yes, because every single Tea Party and townhall protest has concluded with those in attendance chanting "death to blacks". Seriously, does anyone on the left ever call these people on this bullshit?

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