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Now Playing at Reason.tv: The Case Against College Entitlements
President Barack Obama has declared that his administration aims to make college affordable to everyone by greatly expanding government aid to middle class families. The Washington Post says that Obama's higher education proposals, which include creating a brand new Pell Grant entitlement, "could transform the financial aid landscape for millions of students while expanding federal authority to a degree that even Democrats concede is controversial."
But what if President Obama has it backwards? What if America is sending too many people to college?
A recent study found that "Nationally, four-year colleges graduated an average of just 53% of entering students within six years." If 40 percent of students who enter college drop out before graduation and over 50 percent of students take six years to graduate, perhaps Obama is focusing on the wrong issue.
Reason.tv's Michael C. Moynihan sat down with Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) and the American Enterprise Institute's Charles Murray, author of the recent book Real Education, to analyze how Obama's higher-education plans will impact the economic and cultural future of the United States.
For embed code, an audio podcast, and iPod and HD versions click here.
For a YouTube version of this video, go here.
"The Case Against College Entitlements" was produced by Michael C. Moynihan and Meredith Bragg. Approximately 5 minutes long.
|7.14.09 @ 12:06PM|#
Nationally, four-year colleges graduated an average of just
53% of entering students within six years.
... [I]f over 50 percent of students take six years to graduate,
perhaps Obama is focusing on the wrong issue.
I RTFA, and this conclusion doesn't follow from your data. 50%
graduate within six years. That includes people who
graduate in four.
Still, you're ultimately right.
Mike in PA|7.14.09 @ 12:10PM|#
Can I just say, "Thank You for this!"
I've been waiting for something like this, but nobody ever mentions
it.
Nice job ReasonTV!
Cabeza de Vaca|7.14.09 @ 12:12PM|#
This is just a payback to all the college age voters that got him elected.
|7.14.09 @ 12:12PM|#
What if America is sending too many people to
college?
In the same way they confuse "health insurance" with "health", they
confuse a "college degree" with "knowledge".
|7.14.09 @ 12:14PM|#
I just want to know how much this crap will accelerate tuition increases, which already occur at a shocking rate.
|7.14.09 @ 12:15PM|#
The other effect this has (if it's mentioned in the video,
sorry, I didn't WTFV) is to continuously drive up the cost of
tuition. As more and more students pay their tuition through grants
and Federal loans, the schools keep raising tuition, because the
students don't feel it until they graduate, are too young to
usually comprehend the sums involved, and think they "have" to go
to college anyway.
Then they get stuck with student loans taking years to pay off,
many of whom default on them (sticking us with the bill), but the
schools got their money upfront and have no incentive to reduce
tuition.
|7.14.09 @ 12:21PM|#
And yet, people constantly express baffled surprise that tuition increases at a rate well in excess of the *official* inflation rate.
MNG|7.14.09 @ 12:21PM|#
You know what I hate? People going to college! In the old days
there were two ways to go to college: you were rich, or a rich
person/institution gave you patronage and pity. And boy did that
work better! I wish we could go back to that!
I also loved the ultra-individualism of feudalism! I'd love to be a
knight. Who wants to be my squire? C'mon SIV, you know you wanna!
You could be a cool squire like in the Seventh Seal...
|7.14.09 @ 12:22PM|#
No young adult left behind!
Give me a break, Barack. You may not realize this but many of these
folks you wish to send to college would never have made it through
high school if the standards hadn't been dumbed down to the level
that they have.
Lets face it, many are too lazy, too undisciplined, or just too
damned stupid to get anything out of a college education no matter
the level of federal assistance provided. I know this offends your
egalitarian sensibilities, your pollyannish view of your fellow
humans, but it is reality.
We've already made the possession of a high school diploma
meaningless as an indicator of basic learning achievement, why
would you wish to do the same for associate and bachelor
degrees?
MNG|7.14.09 @ 12:23PM|#
How many people here paid for their college up-front?
Uh-huh.
How many paid for it through purely private, un-government
subsidized loans?
Uh-huh.
How many people went to public institutions?
Uh-huh.
So, er, who are the people bitching about this now?
BeesInTheBrain|7.14.09 @ 12:26PM|#
You have an business that has priced its' product out of the reach of it's core consumers. When the government steps in to further subsidies the inflated prices the big problem you see is that not enough people complete the purchase?
Citizen Nothing|7.14.09 @ 12:27PM|#
I got a purely private un-government academic scholarship to a
state university.
I'm so conflicted.
|7.14.09 @ 12:27PM|#
MNG, surely you aren't assertring that a college education is unattainable, or even overly difficult for a motivated individual possessing a near average intelligence today.
|7.14.09 @ 12:28PM|#
MNG,
Interesting that higher education costs seem to increase without
end--just like healthcare costs. Seems to me the heavy hand of
government and government subsidies has something to do with both
cases. I like the idea of a well-educated populace, but I'm not
sure how well this method works. In a lot of ways, the value of a
college education seems to have decreased, not increased.
|7.14.09 @ 12:28PM|#
You're completely missing the point, MNG, and whipping up a
strawman. The subsidization of tuition payments causes tuition to
continually increase. What good is it for someone, who might not
have been inclined to go to college, to get a bunch of student
loans, and then drop out? Now they owe a ton of money yet have no
degree.
If you want to provide help for kids who will do well in college,
that's one thing (standard libertarian disclaimer), but throwing
money at people who otherwise probably wouldn't have gone is
foolish, and raises the tuition rates (and therefore future debt)
on all those who will do well in college.
|7.14.09 @ 12:30PM|#
And I'd like to add this: going to college isn't some mythical end unto itself. MNG seems to only care that people go, and doesn't mention whether they graduate, whether they actually learn much, and whether it is of any future value to them.
Citizen Nothing|7.14.09 @ 12:32PM|#
Shorter MNG: "Whaaaat about the children?!!!"
But fuck results, Epi! At least he's got good intentions!
|7.14.09 @ 12:33PM|#
One thing that appears much worse today is grade inflation at the high school level. My son is interested in attending UF (my alma mater), and the average GPA for admission is close to 4.0. That's insane. I'm young enough to have received bonus points to my GPA for AP classes, but I think the maximum possible when I was in school was something like a 4.4. Now it's like 6.0. With the pressure to de-emphasize the SAT, combined with these bizarro world grading practices, makes admissions a fool's errand.
|7.14.09 @ 12:33PM|#
Hey, college education is a right, folks. Just like health care. And food. And clean, new clothes. And a place to live. And reliable public transportation. All we have to do in return is work until we die. What a bargain!
|7.14.09 @ 12:36PM|#
Save your money, and read the contents of the five
foot bookshelf.
And learn to run a backhoe.
|7.14.09 @ 12:36PM|#
"I've been waiting for something like this, but nobody ever
mentions it."
Go read your ass som Thomas Sowell.
Warty|7.14.09 @ 12:37PM|#
If this doesn't pass, how will I find enough workers for my art history factory?
|7.14.09 @ 12:37PM|#
How many people here paid for their college
up-front?
My parents paid it for me, but it was paid up-front. They only paid
tuition and fees, though; I had to earn my own spending
money.
How many paid for it through purely private, un-government
subsidized loans?
No loans were involved.
How many people went to public institutions?
Not me. Private undergrad, private law school.
And I don't think the government should be subsidizing university
education at all.
So, er, who are the people bitching about this now?
Right here, buddy-boy.
Citizen Nothing|7.14.09 @ 12:39PM|#
Thread jack: An advance copy of the graphic novelization of Fahrenheit 451 just landed on my desk. Looks pretty cool.
|7.14.09 @ 12:40PM|#
What is often forgotten in all of this is that the only way the federal government has any meaningful authority over higher education is through enticing it with money. We have no ministry of education, so if universities, colleges take the fed's money, then they must abide by the lengthy regulations that follow--and I am sure the Obama administration will add to the plethora that already exists.
hmm|7.14.09 @ 12:42PM|#
I didn't watch yet. But degree and grade inflation is a huge problem. I've seen business grads that can't figure net income or even calculate simple ratios.
Citizen Nothing|7.14.09 @ 12:42PM|#
Hey! And a new edition of Radical Chic & Mau-Mauing the Flak
Catchers!
It's a big day here at the C.N. Book Desk.
Art-P.O.G.|7.14.09 @ 12:43PM|#
Save your money, and read the contents of the five foot bookshelf.
Cliff's Notes plz
Rhywun|7.14.09 @ 12:50PM|#
I took a Pell Grant and government loans up the wazoo to attend a state school, and I STILL think there are too many college students. I think the central point here is that college is NOT for everyone, and we shouldn't be fooling ourselves that it is. In the same stupid way, we now expect every child to graduate from high school with college prep courses. Here in NYS, the Regents diploma used to go only to kids who planned on going to college. Now it is required of all students. Imagine the dumbing down that was involved to carry that out. The whole thing is absurd, and probably second only to the teachers' unions in terms of forces that are wrecking American education.
T|7.14.09 @ 12:51PM|#
What is often forgotten in all of this is that the only way
the federal government has any meaningful authority over higher
education is through enticing it with money.
I have no idea about the quality of an education from Hillsdale,
but I admire their stance in flipping the bird at the feds.
Art-P.O.G.|7.14.09 @ 12:54PM|#
Maybe a graphic novelization of the "five-foot bookshelf"?
Sounds good.
I'd also like to second Rhywun's entire 12:50pm post.
EcoDude|7.14.09 @ 12:57PM|#
I think most people who have actually taught college courses
believe that there are far too many students in college.
It's a maturity thing, really. The VA students seem to have the
maturity to succeed. It's the pampered snowflakes who cause the
problems.
http://rateyourstudents.blogspot.com/
God Fearing Atheist|7.14.09 @ 12:59PM|#
You think all those billions of federal money flowing into the colleges might ensure those lefty votes keep rolling in?
|7.14.09 @ 12:59PM|#
With Big Education exempt from lobbying restrictions you can expect more of the same. Someone needs to gift, wine and dine our esteemed public officials. And yes, tuition will increase accordingly. Fuck Big Ed.
|7.14.09 @ 1:04PM|#
"I've been going to this high school college for
seven and a half years. I'm no dummy."
|7.14.09 @ 1:10PM|#
An advance copy of the graphic novelization of Fahrenheit
451
That ran in last month's Playboy...
|7.14.09 @ 1:10PM|#
"Christ. Seven years of college down the drain. Might as well join the fucking Peace Corps."
|7.14.09 @ 1:12PM|#
The real problem is that the value of education has been
upended. Once upon a time smart people got educations, and so
people began to believe that education makes you smart. So we have
the situation we are in now... no one is smart that doesn't have an
education, and increasing levels of degrees to boot. While this is,
of course, high-grade bullshit, it is a very sticky myth in a
cultural sense.
No one who is fundamentally intellectually incurious has any
business being anywhere near a college campus. A three-tiered
education system is forming: Universities/colleges, trade schools,
the so-called "for profit" schools that are basically trade schools
for white collar office workers. How this will shake out is
unclear, but it looks like the traditional "liberal arts" schools
are going to be on the smelly end of the stick when the dust
settles.
|7.14.09 @ 1:16PM|#
on the smelly end of the stick when the dust
settles
Dear god; what terrifying situation is that metaphor based on?
shriek!|7.14.09 @ 1:18PM|#
I was a pampered snowflake! I spent my college daze drinking and engaging in generally unladylike behavior. Once the parents stopped paying I learned I could sex for money. The rest is history! Some people don't need book learning, they just need a good pimp.
hammeredHead|7.14.09 @ 1:19PM|#
The surveys that show college grads earn far more than HS are very backward-looking and include many who graduated at a time when far fewer went to college. I wish the GAO could somehow perform a study using tax records and education databases to figure the earnings of people under 40 with various education/ocupational combinations. Who knows, it might find vocations graduates earn far more than college ones.
|7.14.09 @ 1:20PM|#
Or, FitBunny, people like my nephew, who graduated last month after three years-of course, he did the summer sessions in order to do so.
robc|7.14.09 @ 1:21PM|#
How many people here paid for their college
up-front?
Yo.
How many paid for it through purely private, un-government
subsidized loans?
Cash.
How many people went to public institutions?
Yep. Had to pay out-of-state tuition as it wasnt MY public.
So, er, who are the people bitching about this now?
Me.
hammeredHead|7.14.09 @ 1:22PM|#
Dang my spelling was terrible. Oh well at work now and multi-tasking
|7.14.09 @ 1:24PM|#
Here in NYS, the Regents diploma used to go only to kids who
planned on going to college.
When I was going to high school in NY (early '70s), there also were
extremely good "vocational" schools, for the kids who had no need
or desire for college. They graduated with marketable skills in
addition to basic proficiency in readin, writin, et c, and seemed
to have little difficulty getting jobs.
Fluffy|7.14.09 @ 1:25PM|#
Dear god; what terrifying situation is that metaphor based
on?
In ancient Rome, since there was no toilet paper, one way to wipe
your ass after using the latrine was to use a sponge on the end of
a stick.
So yes, once upon a time, there was a "shit end of the
stick".
I'm not sure about all the details of how this worked, although I
have wondered about them. Did everybody have his own stick? What
about at public latrines? Did you keep a sponge in your toga
somewhere for just such occasions? How were the sponges cleaned
between uses, if at all? Unfortunately, not a lot of this info is
available in Cicero's letters.
shriek!|7.14.09 @ 1:28PM|#
short end of stick is just the nice version of shit end of the stick? awesome, I didn't learn that in college.
|7.14.09 @ 1:29PM|#
Ass wiping before the invention of toilet paper is one of the great mysteries of history.
Lowdog|7.14.09 @ 1:30PM|#
I know I should turn in my decoder ring because I'm borrowing
money to finish school at a state university right this very
minute.
I can, however, attest to the constant increasing costs of going to
college. Our AZ schools are even introducing a flat fee to attend
one of the universities here...I think Arizona State is thinking
about $1000 per student...they call it a surcharge, I
believe.
They love to offer lots of money to a student like me, though...I
returned to Arizona State after being in the workforce for over 10
years. I didn't graduate the first time around, so if I do it now,
it raises those graduation rates, dontcha know! :) Anyway, that
first time around my folks paid for it, this time I had some of my
own money and I'm borrowing the rest.
kc|7.14.09 @ 1:30PM|#
The value proposition of a college degree is critical to
evaluate beforehand -- as a financial counselor (private practice)
I've worked with a number of ill-informed people who were $75k to
$120k in ed loan debt with BAs and MAs in social work, making less
than $30k per year. How could they not see that coming????? Think
they'll do a better cost benefit analysis when it's "free" money
from the govt paying? of course not -- And I advise parents all the
time to take a good look at what the kid wants to study before
encouraging the kid to take out loans; and I also advise parents to
make sure they're taking care of their own retirement before
funding college (unless they can count on the kids supporting them
in retirement - fat chance)
BTW, I paid for a BS from MIT through a combination of private
tuition scholarships, loans, and working 30 hr/wk. Has paid off
handsomely, thank you very much!
|7.14.09 @ 1:32PM|#
Fluffy,
The shit-end of the stick:
It's an idea whose time has come around again.
SFW work, but maybe not for lunch.
I read not too long ago that toilet paper had a hard time gaining a
foothold in the Midwest because the ubiquity of the Sears catalog.
Why buy something when Sears sent it to you for free?
Obligatory Simpsons: "Ah wash mahself with a rag on a stick."
|7.14.09 @ 1:37PM|#
All of you who have gone through a divorce and our distinguished
domestic relations lawyers are probably aware of how this mentality
manifests itself in the divorce process.
One of the issues that is usually raised is who shall be
responsible for finanancing the college educations of the children
born of the marriage. If one has ever read a separation agreement,
one would know that that this issue is almost always addressed.
Almost all the time, there is an expression/recitation as
follows:
The parents agree and acknowledge that it is in the best interest
of the children to obtain a college education; or
The Husband and Wife both agree that post secondary education is
essential for the development, maturity and future success of the
children.
A real good divorce lawyer should, imo, go the other way and insist
upon the following language in a separation agreement:
Contrary to the prevailing propaganda, the Husband and Wife do not
agree that a college education is a prerequisite to a happy and
successful life.
shriek!|7.14.09 @ 1:39PM|#
But whaddabout after graduation? What degree should you get if you don't want to work at all? I got this engineering degree but my pimp says I am not an engineer. I design bridges and smoke crack, what am I?
robc|7.14.09 @ 1:39PM|#
SugarFree,
Not just the midwest.
Sears catalogs and corn cobs according to my mom.
She was in college (to actually stick to the thread) before her
parents had electricity and indoor plumbing.
Mike in PA|7.14.09 @ 1:45PM|#
Let's look at this another way...
Maybe it's not a failure. Maybe they want to do this on purpose.
They already dumbed down K-12 so that people are easier to control;
might as well finish the job!
Think people will throw a fit about it?! No way! Long John Silver
is getting away with advertising something called a Fish Taco with
nary a peep! People will accept whatever they are given.
kinnath|7.14.09 @ 1:45PM|#
State University with Pell grants and lots o' student
loans.
I pay more each year in federal income taxes than I got in Pell
grants over 3 1/2 years of college 20 years ago.
My daughter just finished an associates degree. She has more in
student loan debt (not counting grants) than I paid for my entire
bachelors program (including grants and loans) back then. Tuition
inflation is absurd.
|7.14.09 @ 1:48PM|#
I've read the reports today in which Obama has been singling out
community and junior colleges for more aid.
I don't think that the federal government needs to spend more money
on the 2 year schools in this financial climate.
HOWEVER, I do think that there is strong merit for the 2 year
colleges getting more state aid and students being encouraged to
use them more.
Since trade education like shop and metal working have all
disappeared from our high schools, the community and junior
colleges has filled the void in trade education. Whether auto
mechanics, nursing, EMT, radiology, or education certification, the
2 year schools are our most effective trade schools for skills and
certifications that do not require 4 year degrees.
Many universities have become degree factories pushing students
through with virtually little skills other than keg tapping and
pouring body shots....NTTAWWT.
Art-P.O.G.|7.14.09 @ 1:51PM|#
something called a Fish Taco with nary a peep!
So what? Some of us enjoy nibbling on a fish taco every now and then.
shriek!|7.14.09 @ 1:51PM|#
I think wiping my ass with a corncob would be a satisfying way
to relieve the constant itching and irritation.
It's not that I can't enjoy toilet paper but I imagine a
shit-smeared corncob has more impact as a projectile weapon. These
are important engineering considerations.
|7.14.09 @ 1:52PM|#
As for tuition costs, the local community college 2 year degree
is in the $6k range. When I went through 15 years ago, it was ~$30
per credit hour. Now it's $95.
My fist instinct is to be repulsed by this 3 fold increase in
tuition. By that is tempered by the observation the number of
programs offered have increased greatly and the facilities are top
notch. The labs are all modern and excellent.
I can see the money being put to use and can see what that tuition
is paying for.
Autodidact|7.14.09 @ 1:52PM|#
"No one who is fundamentally intellectually incurious has any
business being anywhere near a college campus"
Damn straight. I gave it a try for a few quarters and there were
classes where I had to leave the room because although the prof was
speaking, there was no information coming out of her mouth. It made
my head hurt.
|7.14.09 @ 1:52PM|#
First year on my dime. Finished undergrad on Dad's GI Bill. Graduate scool on remaining GI, fellowship and Graduate assistanceship. All public institutions. Despite my free-riding I still think it was a big waste. Now I'm in business competiting against plenty of barely educated former pressmen.
kc|7.14.09 @ 1:54PM|#
My husband happened on fish tacos over 15 years ago in San Diego and has been looking for them ever since. Every time we go into a Mexican restaurant up here in Massachusetts, he asks if they have fish tacos, inevitably has to explain how they are made, and encourages the waitstaff to put them on the menu. Sigh..... he'll be thrilled to know he can get them now at Long John Silver's -- double sigh..... (yep, he went to MIT too)
|7.14.09 @ 1:54PM|#
Obama is mistaken in his belief that Federal subsidies will make college more affordable. If history is any guide, all of those dollars will be captured by the institutions receiving them, with little or no benefit to the students. If his goal is to further enrich a unionized industry and more greatly empower one of the great propaganda arms of the left by moving more students through college, this will succeed admirably. If his goal is to make college more affordable, this will fail horribly.
Zeb|7.14.09 @ 1:55PM|#
I got subsidized loans to pay for college (private, fancy
liberal elite college). If I am going to be paying for this shit, I
damn well better at least get a piece of it.
Now when they call me to ask for money, I suggest that maybe I will
be willing to donate if they can figure out how to reduce tuition
and fee increases to something closer to the rate of inflation.
|7.14.09 @ 1:56PM|#
"Who knows, it might find vocations graduates earn far more than
college ones."
A lineman, working for an electric utility, can make upwards of
$100K/year. No college required, but there is a formal training
period. Utilities are screaming for lineman as the bulk of them are
retiring in within the next five years.
Zeb|7.14.09 @ 1:59PM|#
"Since trade education like shop and metal working have all
disappeared from our high schools"
This is not the case where I live. Do you have any support for this
claim?
|7.14.09 @ 2:00PM|#
"I'm not sure about all the details of how this worked, although
I have wondered about them. Did everybody have his own
stick?"
I was reading a piece on old outhouses and it was common for them
to have a corncob on a string. Not a box of cobs gently warming
over a potpourri candle. Just one cob on one string.
No wonder disease ran rampant.
|7.14.09 @ 2:01PM|#
"What if people are dropping out because they can't afford
college?"
Then they're not too resourceful.
|7.14.09 @ 2:02PM|#
Some of us enjoy nibbling on a fish taco every now and
then.
Just after a shower, please. The polyester of the Long John
Silver's uniform does nothing for the freshness of a meal.
robc|7.14.09 @ 2:03PM|#
Corn cobs?!?
Take the corn off the cob. Let the cob dry out. Wipe ass. Drop into
outhouse hole.
That's my understanding. I never aaked too much, some things you
dont want to know.
|7.14.09 @ 2:06PM|#
Take the corn off the cob. Let the cob dry out. Wipe ass.
Drop into outhouse hole.
Once again, people who romanticize the past are stupid.
|7.14.09 @ 2:08PM|#
"The shit-end of the stick: It's an idea whose time has come
around again."
Jesezuz, Sug! What don't you know???
|7.14.09 @ 2:10PM|#
Dad swore that the red cobs were softer than the white cobs.
They had a basket of both in the outhouse in Mississippi when he
was a kid. The phrase, "rougher than a cob," came outta this
situation. Cobs showed up in the shitter after the sears catalogue
was used up.
Long haul truck driving pays between 50 and 70k a year depending on
experience. Staying at the same company for years is where the good
money is. The heavy haul and oversize owner operators can make a
quarter million a year.
College isn't necessary to earn a good living. Staying in the same
trade, with the same company is where progress is best.
Just because little Johnny isn't happy at work or can't make enough
money at 22 years of age to buy the whole frickin world isn't a
good reason for the gubmint to subsidize his education.
|7.14.09 @ 2:13PM|#
One of Tony's Reason Rubes,
Thankfully, that was just something I saw on boingboing a few
months back.
Although, really, the "remember something and know how to look it
up again" is a librarian skill set. I keyword search a couple of
hours a day for my job.
Anyway, what's with the wand? Surely, when you realize that you can
no longer wipe your own ass because you are so fat, it should be a
wake-up call to lose some weight.
Warty|7.14.09 @ 2:16PM|#
This is not the case where I live. Do you have any support
for this claim?
Just where do you live? Shop class went the way of high school
shooting teams in most of the country long ago.
|7.14.09 @ 2:18PM|#
Take the corn off the cob. Let the cob dry out. Wipe ass.
Drop into outhouse hole.
Once again, people who romanticize the past are stupid.
No. Shit.
My god, there wasn't anything else more suitable? Newspaper?
Leaves?
mySPOONistoobig|7.14.09 @ 2:19PM|#
I guess if your daddy is the government then it's okay to let daddy pay for school. I love big brother and his noodly appendage.
|7.14.09 @ 2:19PM|#
people who romanticize the past are stupid.
They are, indeed.
*****
I will maintain to my dying day that the single greatest
achievement of Western Civilization was indoor plumbing.
shriek!|7.14.09 @ 2:20PM|#
Corncobs have the rough texture that my ass craves after a large meal and some digestin'
|7.14.09 @ 2:21PM|#
Warty, here in southeast Alabama, the ROTC is huge in the schools, complete with shooting teams. The local high school has several types of diplomas ranging from barely meeting state standards to college prepared. They have a great vo-tech program. It includes: cosmetology, food prep, auto mech, drafting and architecture, electronics and lawn maintenance/ greenskeeping. The programs are generally 4 years and turn out high school graduates that are ready to work in their chosen field.
|7.14.09 @ 2:24PM|#
Outhouses were typically on skids in Mississipi. Some are still
in use. They had to be movved occassionally as the hole filled.
Thus the skids.
Dad tells with great fondness about pranking people on halloween by
pushing the outhouse behind the hole and watching folks go to the
shitter in the dark.
smartass sob|7.14.09 @ 2:25PM|#
Save your money, and read the contents of the five foot
bookshelf.
While you are at it or after you finish, you might try Britanica's
Great Books Of The Western World, too.
|7.14.09 @ 2:25PM|#
Everyone can not go to college otherwise a college degree would
be worthless. Besides everyone is not cut out for college.
Personally I hated college but got my degree anyway because I was
capable of get one and paid for it all out of pocket, no loans or
grants.
What chaps my ass is the way they toss around GPA's like that means
a damn thing. When I was in HS we had a 5 point grading scale, now
it is 10 points. In college we had a 7 point scale, now it is 10
points as well. So in all reality those of us who made better
grades in the past can actually come out looking less intelligent
based on GPAs simply because they moved the target. When in fact we
all scored higher than the kids today.
We should not fund college grants, only privately funded loans. No
more of this everyone has to go bullshit that has no chance of
working no matter what, we could pay some people to go to school
and they still wouldn't go or graduate. Here in La. we have a waste
of money known as TOPS that pays something around 80-90% of tuition
costs for all high school grads. Since this program has been in
place the average number of people who take the money and go to
college and stay after their 1st year is 10%, much less how many
actually graduate! So that means we are flushing money down the
shitter with a success ratio of 1/10. How anyone can look at that
and say it is a success at anything other than wasting money is
beyond me. Again it all boils down to being very easy and feel good
to give people stuff for nothing especially when you have other
people paying for it all.
Art-P.O.G.|7.14.09 @ 2:28PM|#
Surely, when you realize that you can no longer wipe your own ass because you are so fat, it should be a wake-up call to lose some weight.
That and if you find yourself going down the aisle at Wal-mart
on a motorized cart (with an oxygen tank), wearing a XXXXXXXXXXL
Looney Tunes shirt.[1]
[1]Xeones, Naga? One of you guys deserves credit for this.
Zaxitor|7.14.09 @ 2:30PM|#
As FrBunny pointed out, the way you are interpreting this data
is a bit flawed.
However, I agree. While I would love to see more college grants
coming my way, a massive portion of the funding would be wasted on
people who don't value their college studies because the money
isn't coming out of their own pockets.
Art-P.O.G.|7.14.09 @ 2:31PM|#
Dad tells with great fondness about pranking people on halloween by pushing the outhouse behind the hole and watching folks go to the shitter in the dark.
That's mean, yo. But then again, if I had the experience of falling into a crap-hole, I prbably wouldn't have a problem taking a lucrative job as a honeydipper later on.
|7.14.09 @ 2:31PM|#
In the future, everyone will have (bad) higher education, everyone will have (bad) healthcare, and everyone will have at least one million (massively inflated) dollars in their bank accounts.
|7.14.09 @ 2:36PM|#
Warty, Ozark, actually. Dothan is where the money is being made. In Ozark you can still buy a 3 bdrm 2 bath rancher in the 1400 to 1700 sq ft range for 100k. Half that it you are handy and have 20k to spend on a remodel. It's a 20 to 30 minute drive to Dothan and 2 hours to the beach.
|7.14.09 @ 2:36PM|#
"Anyway, what's with the wand? Surely, when you realize that you
can no longer wipe your own ass because you are so fat, it should
be a wake-up call to lose some weight."
I first heard about contraptions like this via a website I ran
accross about ten years ago. It was a site dedicated to fat girlz
and there was a piece on how to wipe what one can no longer reach.
My co-worker though it was parody until reality sunk in.
Imma gonna go look for it...
|7.14.09 @ 2:39PM|#
Dad tells with great fondness about pranking people on
halloween by pushing the outhouse behind the hole and watching
folks go to the shitter in the dark.
That's the kind of prank that gets one beaten within inches of
death. I guess your dad never got caught.
|7.14.09 @ 2:41PM|#
I could have paid for college up-front, since I was working a
decent paying job part time. But no sense doing that when you can
get an interest free loan from Uncle Sugar for four years.
I'll also second what kinnath said that I've paid more in federal
income tax than they paid in interest. If the govt gave me the
option of a 1% reduction in my tax rate in return for foregoing
student loans, I would have taken it.
smartass sob|7.14.09 @ 2:45PM|#
Once again, people who romanticize the past are stupid.
No. Shit.
My god, there wasn't anything else more suitable? Newspaper? Leaves?
No shit seems to be a very popular option with some folks.
;-)
Actually, if you go back far enough, people used their bare hand
and a jug of water. Their left hand, that is. That's why
even today people from the Middle East are insulted, should one
proffer the left when shaking hands. In fact, it's part of the
reason that the left hand has always had a negative connotation.
Consider that the Latin root of the word sinister means
left.
|7.14.09 @ 2:47PM|#
I will maintain to my dying day that the single greatest
achievement of Western Civilization was indoor plumbing.
I'll agree with that, and add modern transportation - in particular
refrigerated trucks, which allowed fresh food to be available year
round.
|7.14.09 @ 2:50PM|#
"I will maintain to my dying day that the single greatest
achievement of Western Civilization was indoor plumbing.
I'll agree with that, and add modern transportation - in particular
refrigerated trucks, which allowed fresh food to be available year
round."
Thank you FDR and Thomas A. Crapper.
|7.14.09 @ 2:53PM|#
Dee, TOPS is limited to B or better students. Not that that
makes it right. However My daughter got a TOPS certificate for
tenth grade, and I'm going to stay on her next year. LA also passed
a second track for vocational students last month, which should be
a good thing.
Ben, my daddy always loved those day trips to the beach.
smartass sob|7.14.09 @ 2:57PM|#
I'll agree with that, and add modern transportation - in
particular refrigerated trucks, which allowed fresh food to be
available year round."
Thank you FDR and Thomas A. Crapper
Before trucks there were refrigerated railroad cars - FDR wasn't
responsible for those.
|7.14.09 @ 2:58PM|#
So that majority of college students either take 6 years to get
a 4 year degree or do not graduate at all. The education expert
says it is because high-school kids are just plain dumb. Well, the
majority of students attend - drum role please... PUBLIC SCHOOLS!
That just goes to prove that, the problem is not necessarily with
the colleges and universities, it is with the high schools, namely
the public high schools. I don't think that it is a coincidence
that some of our most succesful and well educated people in this
country (and most Western nations for that matter) attended private
schools.
Just goes to show you that private control always trumps public
control. The local school district has no incentive to do more than
make sure its students graduate semi-literate because they are the
only game in town and "free" (through taxes). However, the private
schools must compete and the way they do that is by increasing
quality since they cannot decrease price below that of the public
schools. Almost any kind of comparison I see from any area has
private schools producing more intelligent and well rounded
students than their public school counterparts.
Sean W. Malone|7.14.09 @ 2:59PM|#
Yeahhhhhhhhhhhhh.....
I have such a love-hate relationship with college... I went to a
state school for my undergrad then a ridiculously unaffordable
private school for my masters and though I'm glad I got the
education I have now, the only parts that are meaningful to me are
completely self-directed.
Honestly, if I could have skipped undergrad and started in graduate
school that would have rocked, since I'd say about 80% of my
coursework and the other nonsense I did over that 4 year period was
a waste of time... And as for MNG. Are you really suggesting that I
shouldn't have gone to college or accepted a government subsidized
loan?
I disagree with publicly funded K-12, Roads, and energy, yet I
use/d all of those too... When government creates a monopoly over
services and/or payment, exactly how am I going to avoid it?
As much as I value some of my grad school experiences though, I do
wish I didn't have the debt burden I have now - but A. I signed up
for it, so I knew what I was getting into, more or less and B. the
increase in tuition is yet another lovely result of government
"support". As is the shitty job market I got to enjoy falling into
directly after grad school (and now).
Also - having taught college classes, I too agree that most kids
shouldn't be there.
|7.14.09 @ 2:59PM|#
smartass, i read somewhere that that is the reason why thieves were punished by cutting off their right hand. Left was for butt cleaning. Right was for eating. In a society where eating was done with your fingers from common plates, it made you very unwelcome at the dinner table.
|7.14.09 @ 3:00PM|#
SugarFree: There is a green alternative to toilet paper, it's in your wallet right now.
shawn|7.14.09 @ 3:01PM|#
I just graduated from college and I was amazed that some of the students I met there were accepted. Some of them could not spell, make simple sentences, or keep up during class discussions. Many more students did not really care about learning. Even though the school does everything to help students do well (Remedial classes, academic accommodation, peer tutors, etc.), some just cannot or will not do the work. We need to realize that college is not for everyone. It can be a big waste of time and money.
|7.14.09 @ 3:06PM|#
What's the big deal about graduating within 6 years. It took me
9 years from the time I first attended to graduate. In the meantime
I had a lot of great (and not so great) life experiences, married
and had two children, and supported my family. I did accept one
$500 Pell grant and borrowed $2000 for my last year, but mostly I
paid for my college one or two classes at a time. I was also able
to borrow small amounts for books and pay it back during each
quarter. I don't recommend this as easy, but it worked for
me.
By the way, my two sons graduated in 4 and 5 years respectively and
each had about $10,000 in debt. They managed by working tough
summer jobs and eating a lot of deer meat in the winter.
Anyone of average intelligence can get a college education if
they're willing to work hard, but sometimes they need a little
help. I'm not against providing that because we do need people with
good college educations.
Not everyone wants to, or should, go to college. But if we don't
want everyone to try, then we need to start respecting those who
choose not to go. Part of that must be rewarding working men and
women with better pay. It also means valuing the contributions of
all and not considering college graduates as somehow "better" than
those who choose another course.
I love college for all the wro|7.14.09 @ 3:06PM|#
As a proud student of a private university where kids mostly
waste their parent's money instead of the taxpayers, I most
wholeheartedly agree.
Upon arrival in college my ambition dramatically dropped because I
realized that no matter what my scholastic achievement was, most of
my parents money that they spent was wasted by the school
administration on wasted services that I never use, or funneled
into groups and activism that I don't support.
-Tuition is spent on professors who preach totalitarianism to my
peers (though I am majoring in science to avoid them)
-Funding for school groups that I do not support (it is fine you
are gay, do you need my money for your gay group?)
-Research on future climate disasters (not the validity of
warming)
-Campus Security that tries to take my pot and beer.
-Need-based scholarships that drive up costs for the middle class
that doesn't qualify for them so that you have a system of the
upper class that can afford the full rate paying so that the lower
class can go for free, and the middle-class goes to public schools
still emerges in debt.
Entitlements hurt everyone (even the lower class in the long
run)
Sean W. Malone|7.14.09 @ 3:10PM|#
I would like to also add that what I "didn't" plan for back in 2001 or even in 2005 was for government to start nationalizing shit and making it basically impossible to achieve either the pay or standard of living I'd anticipated going in.
smartass sob|7.14.09 @ 3:11PM|#
...i read somewhere that that is the reason why thieves were
punished by cutting off their right hand.
Which of course, would be another reason why being "left-handed"
would have a negative connotation - it would be associated with
being a thief.
|7.14.09 @ 3:13PM|#
IMO, the biggest problem with entitlements is that they seem to evolve into a lack of motivation and responsibility. Something free is never appreciated and respected like something earned and worked for.
robc|7.14.09 @ 3:30PM|#
Dad tells with great fondness about pranking people on halloween by
pushing the outhouse behind the hole and watching folks go to the
shitter in the dark.
According to my Mom, EVERY halloween the school outhouse got tipped
into the creek. She hated the first few days of school after
halloween as they had no outhouse.
Epi - I think she would, TODAY, kill the person(s) responsible if
she had the chance.
Poli|7.14.09 @ 3:45PM|#
Why not simply test pell grant aplicants? Get a certain GPA and a certain SAT and you'll be helped out with college. I mean, if you're gonna give my money to someone who hasnt earned it, might as well be someone on whom it will at least be useful, and not a goddamn idiot who shouldnt be in College anyway
MNG|7.14.09 @ 3:52PM|#
Sorry, I'm betting, and not worried about losing, that the
majority of people on this thread who went to college did so
because of governmant assistance (or the indirect effects of such
assistance). And then they sit around and bitch about how such
assistance lets "too many" people go to college.
Yeah, right...This reminds me of undergrads who read Thus Spake
Zarathusa and say "yeah, the sheep are totally trying to dog the
superman." Funny, they all think they are the Superman...
|7.14.09 @ 3:57PM|#
Sorry, I'm betting, and not worried about losing, that the
majority of people on this thread who went to college did so
because of governmant assistance (or the indirect effects of such
assistance). And then they sit around and bitch about how such
assistance lets "too many" people go to college.
Govt aid jacks up prices so you can't afford it w/o govt aid (which
may be so indirect as to be unavoidable). End result is used to
justify govt aid.
When the govt is small enough to avoid w/o living in a cave like a
hermit, THEN slam us for not avoiding it.
MNG|7.14.09 @ 3:57PM|#
Is there a great deal of dead weight at colleges?
Yes.
But here is the trick, come up with a program that keeps the dead
weight out but helps most of us on this thread (and even folks not
on this thread, like Milton Friedman, who went to a subsidized
state college) get a chance at what higher ed can bring us.
I'd rather have a system that lets us and the dead weight in than
one that keeps all of it out...
shriek!|7.14.09 @ 3:59PM|#
jeesh MNG, don't you know we all had uber-wealthy parents who financed our every whim? Only silver spoons need apply!
MNG groupie|7.14.09 @ 4:00PM|#
Hurr, hurr. I bet they even use PUBLIC ROADS. Hurr, hurr. Stupid libertarians.
MNG|7.14.09 @ 4:02PM|#
"don't you know we all had uber-wealthy parents who financed our
every whim?"
I certainly don't think that. In fact, pretty much every car I've
seen sporting a Ron Paul for President sticker was something like a
Geo on it's third paint job, driven by a pony tailed t-shirt
wearing dude at 45 mph in a 55 mph zone...So I certainly don't
think all libertarians are rich!
MNG|7.14.09 @ 4:05PM|#
Say what you want groupie, but there is nothing sadder than the libertarian who benefited from govt assistance to get into higher ed who now bitches about how higher ed lets too many people into higher ed...
MNG|7.14.09 @ 4:07PM|#
"A gifted student, Friedman graduated from Rahway High School in
1928, shortly before his 16th birthday.[9]
Friedman graduated from Rutgers University in New Jersey, where he
specialized in Mathematics and initially intended to become an
actuary. During his time at Rutgers, Friedman fell under the
influence of two economics professors, Arthur F. Burns and Homer
Jones, who convinced him that modern Economics could help end the
Great Depression."
Holy shit, a public high school and public college for undergrad!
Say it ain't so, Uncle Miltie!
MNG|7.14.09 @ 4:09PM|#
Little did young Milton know that his education was made possible by the theft of property from more deserving folks by gun weilding thugs representing the parasite classes...
Sean W. Malone|7.14.09 @ 4:14PM|#
Woahh.... I didn't get "into" college because of government aid,
but you'd have to be a moron to take a private loan when you can
get a government one for virtually 0% and almost infinite time
putting it off - which is actually working out great for me since
the magic of inflation (if I can keep my earnings higher than that
rate) is that I'll end up paying a lot less in real terms.
But seriously, the only reason it costs so much to begin with is
because of the government sponsorship.
I've argued the same thing about health-care and you're not going
to bitch when I pay my insurance bill or go to a public hospital,
or go to a doctor that is paid mostly through medicaid! When
government is as massive as it is, it's simply unavoidable, as jsh
said; "without living like a hermit". So fuck you MNG.
Given the world we have, I made the best choice I could - but I
could have easily gotten private loans to cover it, as could most
people who actually have some business being in college, but they'd
never offer me the deal that the government could. So I get to work
with the world as it is, and wish for a better one.
Sean W. Malone|7.14.09 @ 4:15PM|#
and to somewhat pre-empt a reference to James Ard's
comment:
My loans aren't free goodies - the deal is good, but it's all
getting paid back, with interest.
|7.14.09 @ 4:19PM|#
However, the smugness I'd get if my kid graduated from Hillsdale would be worth half the price at least.
MNG|7.14.09 @ 4:21PM|#
OK Sean, you took government assistance to go to college.
There was a time when such assistance was not available, and an
incredibly smaller % of our population went to college.
You think we can return to those times but magically you would be
part of that %.
Yeah, right.
MNG|7.14.09 @ 4:23PM|#
"good faith. please find some."
See, TAO paid for his law school, at a private school I should
hope, up front in change...
The Angry Optimist|7.14.09 @ 4:24PM|#
it is wholly irrelevant as to the logic or soundness of the
argument to take the argument "to the man". Ad hominems abound,
MNG.
Like I said, get off the internet and find yourself some good
faith, then come back.
The Angry Optimist|7.14.09 @ 4:25PM|#
See, TAO paid for his law school, at a private school I should hope, up front in change...
Irrelevant.
shriek!|7.14.09 @ 4:36PM|#
MNG, my geo does 118mph at an ear-piercing 146 decibels thank you very much. It's called the SHRIEKER!
Sean W. Malone|7.14.09 @ 4:43PM|#
MNG, the loan amount is subsidized upfront, thereby convincing
banks to give me loans for the ridiculously inflated cost of
college tuition (which again is a result of the incentives inherent
in the system) - but since I'm paying it all back, the subsidy is
irrelevant to your argument. The subsidized tuition only "fixes" a
problem that it caused - inflated demand, shortage of supply and
thus steadily rising costs.
But your argument is that I'm getting a government hand-out by
going to college... and since A. I am forced to pay taxes
regardless of how I feel about the system, and B. I'm paying my
school loans back, that's just a bullshit argument MNG.
You want to expose hypocrisy of someone who hates the state but
still uses state-"provided" goods, then everyone is a hypocrite by
force every time we flush our toilets.
MNG groupie|7.14.09 @ 4:49PM|#
Libertarians should just shut up and pay their taxes. If they try to use any service they've already over-paid for, they are hypocrites! Hurr, hurr.
|7.14.09 @ 4:53PM|#
Maybe colleges should be required to have some 'skin in the game' just like what's being proposed for banks and securitizations. That is, they have to give a percentage of any loans to their students directly, can't sell them off, and the loans will be subject to discharge in bankruptcy. Colleges without confidence that the students can earn enough to pay back the loans would have a serious disincentive to enroll those students.
|7.14.09 @ 4:54PM|#
MNG, does your whole argument for socialized college hinge on the fact that some of us have gotten it in the past?
The Angry Optimist|7.14.09 @ 4:57PM|#
I think sage has figured out the logical conclusion of MNG's argument.
|7.14.09 @ 5:01PM|#
I think Harry Browne once made the example of the government "breaking your legs and being the only one to hand you a crutch."
Federal Dog|7.14.09 @ 5:20PM|#
"Some people don't need book learning, they just need a good
pimp."
Which is why they put someone like Obama in office.
jtuf|7.14.09 @ 5:21PM|#
Students should already have general learning and thinking skills by the time they graduate high school. College should be for learning field specific knowledge.
Enis|7.14.09 @ 5:22PM|#
"You want to expose hypocrisy of someone who hates the state but
still uses state-"provided" goods, then everyone is a hypocrite by
force every time we flush our toilets."
That's why I have an outhouse in my back yard. I couldn't stand the
thought of being labeled a hypocrite.
Ska|7.14.09 @ 5:31PM|#
I think Harry Browne once made the example of the government
"breaking your legs and being the only one to hand you a
crutch."
I think I saw that one - Burt Young did a pretty good job.
|7.14.09 @ 5:56PM|#
MNG,
You never answered my implied question from way upthread.
MNG, surely you aren't assertring that a college education is unattainable, or even overly difficult for a motivated individual possessing a near average intelligence today.
If, as I assert, it isn't overly difficult, why throw more taxpyers
money at it?
Rich|7.14.09 @ 6:15PM|#
> Why not simply test pell grant aplicants? Get a certain GPA
and a certain SAT and you'll be helped out with college.
Sorry, many people have test anxiety with stuff like the SAT.
How about this, instead: "Write a one-page essay on a topic of your
choice"? If the testee does not ask, "What's a essay?" s/he's
in.
Sean W. Malone|7.14.09 @ 7:23PM|#
"College should be for learning field specific
knowledge."
Exactly. Thus... Why I went. Good thing to, with my hodgepodge of
skills I think I might be nigh unemployable at anything I'd
actually *want* to do with out the advanced knowledge.
Edgard|7.14.09 @ 9:04PM|#
First of all....
Shut the fuck up Charles Murray. He makes fun of people with a B.A.
when he himself has a B.A in History (what a hypocrite!).... I'm
sure he had problems finding a job after he graduated.
The problem is not that too many students are graduating from
college, its that colleges keep expanding their departments for
bullshit majors.
I'm a 4th year Mechanical Engineering student at the University of
California, Santa Barbara. My graduating class started with around
200 students. Now its down to less then 40 students. The other 160
students changed majors because they couldn't cut it as engineers.
All those people are probably majoring in History, just like
"Charles Murray" did.
If you think college is too easy, take harder courses. I'm sure if
anyone here took a series of quantum mechanics courses, they
wouldn't be bitching about college being too easy.
I hope Obama does increase money for students. Financial aid and
loans are not enough to cover tuition and living expenses. I pay
$650 for rent plus utilities for HALF(1/2) a room.
Education is key to the future of this country and of any society.
So there can never be such a thing as too many people graduating
from college. I mean, the average American is a complete moron.
That's why we have people that drop-out of schools.
My solution:
1.) Increase money for science and engineering majors.
2.) Decrease money or remain the same of all other majors.
3.) Balance money distribution geographically (according to state).
West coast students should get more since living expenses keep
going up.
4.) Make High School much more harder.
Enyap|7.14.09 @ 9:35PM|#
James, even with TOPS being limited to B or better students it's a waste. I graduated highschool with a B despite only spending about 50hrs max doing homework and studying those 4 years.
|7.14.09 @ 11:27PM|#
# sage | July 14, 2009, 5:01pm | #
# I think Harry Browne once made the example
# of the government "breaking your legs and
# being the only one to hand you a crutch."
That's close. He said, "government breaks your legs, hands you a
crutch, and then says, 'see, without government, you couldn't
walk.'"
Sean W. Malone|7.15.09 @ 4:51AM|#
"My solution:
1.) Increase money for science and engineering majors.
2.) Decrease money or remain the same of all other majors.
3.) Balance money distribution geographically (according to state).
West coast students should get more since living expenses keep
going up.
4.) Make High School much more harder."
Translation:
1. Give me more money
2. Take money away from everyone else
3. Give me WAY more money because of where I live
4. I failed English
Julie|7.15.09 @ 5:38AM|#
I can partially agree with Edgard,
If the nation as a whole has more Engineering/Science graduates,
the more probability there if for the U.S. to have a technological
break through.
Think of it this way. Some engineering students invents something,
(some new revolutionary product). He creates a company, sells the
product nationally and internationally. If the product sales are
skyhigh, it would spur jobs would bring money from other
countries.
Remember Microsoft! It brought wealth from all over the world to
the United States. At a point, Bill Gates had more money than some
small countries.
So in theory, if engineering/science was more funded, there would
be a greater chance of this happening again and again.
I just don't agree with Edgard in giving money to students
according to their major. But, I do agree that universities should
limit the number of graduating students in "bullshit" majors.
johnny john john|7.15.09 @ 5:45AM|#
http://www.slate.com/id/2222570/?from=rss
"Another reason to spend on community colleges: They're agile. If
the university system is an ocean liner, community colleges are the
speedboats of higher education. If they get more money and use it
wisely, the thinking goes, they can produce results in a matter of
years. After all, they're designed to respond to the needs of the
local community. For example, LaGuardia Community College recently
introduced a program to train designers in New York City. When the
fishing industry started struggling in Massachusetts, Cape Cod
Community College turned its focus to nursing and other
health-care-related jobs. When Connecticut introduced its first
casino, one nearby community college started training croupiers.
For an administration looking for shovel-ready projects, community
colleges can provide a lot of shovels."
hmm|7.15.09 @ 7:27AM|#
Apprenticeships need to come back to the white collar world
without an undergrad degree. The idea that college provides
fundamentals is valid for those that don't want to learn it
themselves. I know more than one people who educated themselves on
their own time and far exceed college educated individuals.
College is a whole lot of showing and not a lot of doing.
Sean W. Malone|7.15.09 @ 11:15AM|#
"Remember Microsoft! It brought wealth from all over the
world to the United States. At a point, Bill Gates had more money
than some small countries."
Cept umm... Bill Gates didn't finish college. And since the
discussion is about the value of college I think that in and of
itself is a big check mark in the minus column.
"Apprenticeships need to come back to the white collar world
without an undergrad degree."
ABSOLUTELY. To some extent that's what graduate school allowed for
me... but it's far less comprehensive to learn from a respected
professional a few hours a week than working with them 8 hrs a day,
5 days a week for a year. Not always the right move, but in some
cases, great great idea that we really should be doing still.
|7.15.09 @ 6:51PM|#
College is in some sense the new high school. This is compounded by the fact that the American k-12 system is terrible. The amount of things that people need to know to be productive in today's world is greater than it was in the past so it makes sense to extend education if we want to progress. Graduate school is the new college. I see nothing wrong with this.
|7.15.09 @ 8:43PM|#
I want to know where I can find the video accompanying the story! We have 3 college-age children (all of whom we have and/or are paying tuition and expenses for, 2 at very expensive private schools) and as a friend to all similarly situated, I would love to share that video with parents who may sometimes feel exploited by their own children... I would love college too if I could delay my real life for 6 years on somebody else's silver dollar. And then get a job in an art history factory. The near-term upside is that after a quarter-million dollar private liberal arts undergrad and M.A. our oldest is going to law school in the fall, and is going to be taking out more than $200k in loans to accomplish it.... is anybody lining up to help her? Isn't college an investment in your own human capital?
|7.17.09 @ 9:53AM|#
"My solution:
1.) Increase money for science and engineering majors.
2.) Decrease money or remain the same of all other majors.
3.) Balance money distribution geographically (according to state).
West coast students should get more since living expenses keep
going up.
4.) Make High School much more harder."
Translation:
1. Give me more money
2. Take money away from everyone else
3. Give me WAY more money because of where I live
4. I failed English
It's funny 'cause it's true!
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